Barrel Break In and Cleaning Questions

[Lowlight]

No, cause you are talking like you have a clue.

Let me repeat this,

I took a Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class, where I brought my parts and in 4 days built a custom rifle. I used a Custom Bartlein Barrel. Most important part of this story, I have no prior machining skills and I was the one who chambered this rifle / barrel. A custom hand lapped barrel... so no break in should be necessary, according to the experts here.

Well, I have no clue on the speed of which I am supposed to operate these tools, but I chambered it and I am sure, I messed it up. (Robert keeps two barrels on hand expecting you mess one up)

When it came time to shoot this rifle, we had to excessively break it in. Like a 125 rounds worth, as it was fouling and not shooting as it should. After about 125 rounds of shooting it, it began to fall in line with what it should do, and today the rifle is outstanding in all areas. Including fouling. It's easy to work with.

I did it, and I had no idea.

Rewind to a pair of factory TRG-22s, I broke in one and just shot the other. You cannot tell them apart, both perform in a identical manner. Factory Hammer Forged Barrels... which according to the experts needs break in.

I do not break in factory AIs, the same as my custom GAPs.

I will go get a factory 700 in 300WM after SHOT and prove you don't need to break them in, that shooting accomplishes the same thing.

 

[IPSC]

No doubt you have experience and data...but you still can't keep it civil and engage in a debate....huh?

 

[InkedIan]

No, cause you are talking like you have a clue.

Let me repeat this,

I took a Robert Gradous Gunsmithing Class, where I brought my parts and in 4 days built a custom rifle. I used a Custom Bartlein Barrel. Most important part of this story, I have no prior machining skills and I was the one who chambered this rifle / barrel. A custom hand lapped barrel... so no break in should be necessary, according to the experts here.

Well, I have no clue on the speed of which I am supposed to operate these tools, but I chambered it and I am sure, I messed it up. (Robert keeps two barrels on hand expecting you mess one up)

When it came time to shoot this rifle, we had to excessively break it in. Like a 125 rounds worth, as it was fouling and not shooting as it should. After about 125 rounds of shooting it, it began to fall in line with what it should do, and today the rifle is outstanding in all areas. Including fouling. It's easy to work with.

I did it, and I had no idea.

Rewind to a pair of factory TRG-22s, I broke in one and just shot the other. You cannot tell them apart, both perform in a identical manner. Factory Hammer Forged Barrels... which according to the experts needs break in.

I do not break in factory AIs, the same as my custom GAPs.

I will go get a factory 700 in 300WM after SHOT and prove you don't need to break them in, that shooting accomplishes the same thing.

Why would you use a rifle you messed up as an example? Like I said I don't don't break in barrels either but to say that a barrel that is constantly rough through out the bore will foul close to or the same as a barrel that is constantly smooth through out the bore is well kinda ridiculous.

 

[Lowlight]

Because what you are saying is, a crooked chamber on a factory rifle is just as much "common" and acceptable as a rough barrel.

And again, I submit, your idea of a "rough bore" is not the same as what actually affects the fouling.

The reason to point to a bad job is, that has the bearing on the outcome. I did not touch the "bore" I only touched the chamber. So if i can cause a rifle to foul because of a chamber job, that proves, it's not the "bore" in the same way you are overlaying your ideas to this.

A Savage is button cut, it is not machined like you think a cut rifle barrel is... and nobody has yet to demonstrate the difference between "Shooting it" and cleaning it doing is break in ?

Tell me about the tests, "either one of you have personally conducted" that demonstrate the difference you get between just shooting the rifle and cleaning it after, vs Breaking it In ?

 

[InkedIan]

Because what you are saying is, a crooked chamber on a factory rifle is just as much "common" and acceptable as a rough barrel.

And again, I submit, your idea of a "rough bore" is not the same as what actually affects the fouling.

The reason to point to a bad job is, that has the bearing on the outcome. I did not touch the "bore" I only touched the chamber. So if i can cause a rifle to foul because of a chamber job, that proves, it's not the "bore" in the same way you are overlaying your ideas to this.

A Savage is button cut, it is not machined like you think a cut rifle barrel is... and nobody has yet to demonstrate the difference between "Shooting it" and cleaning it doing is break in ?

Tell me about the tests, "either one of you have personally conducted" that demonstrate the difference you get between just shooting the rifle and cleaning it after, vs Breaking it In ?

I see that you assume that everyone but you and industry leaders/manufactures lack knowledge....

No, I never mentioned anything about "crooked chambers"..... Yes, I know savage rifles are button rifled as are criterion barrels which if you refer to my previous post has visually the smoothest rifling i've ever seen except for maybe a lilja and also has never given me a blue patch. Also not all fouling happens at the throat...... My savage 243 and 308 has had visable copper fouling through out the bore as well as my tikka 25-06 and bartlien 243 after many rounds. Not once have I said "breaking in" a barrel would help or cure this. I'm simply and plainly saying that the finish and the smoothness of a rifles barrel can affect fouling.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

InkedIan and ISPC, why do you keep on arguing? Oh, and by the way, Sniper's Hide is LowLight's house, so LowLight's rules----if you don't like his tone, pick up your marbles and go home. I don't know how he can be more clear, "break-in" is a time-consuming and almost always un-necessary job that can be done naturally in almost every case by shooting. If a rifle needs it, it'll tell you, otherwise, go shoot some more. If you can't see that, go do it your way, and we'll do it ours.

LowLight, thanks for your recounting of experiences yet again. I read your posts in a thread several months ago, essentially the same exact story, and it is good to hear it again. Sorry you have to repeat yourself so many times.

 

[Lowlight]

Complete waste of time... by their understanding, every groove would be filled up with copper after the first five rounds.

The rifling wouldn't exist because their would be copper in them, on all barrels.

 

[Ibelieve1776]

So through all the arguments (which were almost as entertaining as the guys with jokes) I decided I will not be "breaking in" my new barrel. Thanks for all the help and please for the love of God love each other!!

 

[JeffLebowski]

I guarantee this question will continue to be asked time and time again by special snowflakes that are too good for the search engine.

 

[Ibelieve1776]

Well I tried that LRI but after not finding and answer to my specific question ie "copper equilibrium" I decided to post it. Sorry if I wasted your time LRI but nobody forced you to be a dick nor did anyone force you to post. Hope you life gets better because you must be going though something awful to come on here and hate.

 

[TexasMade]

I'm going to give a real world experience. I own 20 different AR 15/10's. I did not break them all in. The most expensive ones(Christensen, knights LPR) I broke in. They are the only AR's I have that will shoot under half inch all day long. I've broke in some other ones( rock rivers, POF) Not broke in the others(all different kinds) and had some it did not seem to make any difference. But the point is the Christensen fouled super bad in the beginning. But I was patient and did JB bore paste and broke in by one shot clean method till it quit fouling...20 rounds..and it is my best shooter. Hole in hole AR in my opinion is rare. In fact I would say it shoots better than my SURGEON that I did not break in because "it wasn't necessary." I think Breaking it in does infact do something. And if it's just in my head then that's fine too. But I have seen it work so I will forevermore break in a barrel.

 

[InkedIan]

InkedIan and ISPC, why do you keep on arguing? Oh, and by the way, Sniper's Hide is LowLight's house, so LowLight's rules----if you don't like his tone, pick up your marbles and go home. I don't know how he can be more clear, "break-in" is a time-consuming and almost always un-necessary job that can be done naturally in almost every case by shooting. If a rifle needs it, it'll tell you, otherwise, go shoot some more. If you can't see that, go do it your way, and we'll do it ours.

LowLight, thanks for your recounting of experiences yet again. I read your posts in a thread several months ago, essentially the same exact story, and it is good to hear it again. Sorry you have to repeat yourself so many times.

Wow, suck the d much? I think anyone with the ability to read and comprehend simple sentences can tell that I never advocated any type of barrel break in..... Yes, I know Lowlight owns the forum as he has banned me for civilly disagreeing with him before so I know that having a differing opinion can get you "in trouble" whether it's correct or not.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

InkedIan and ISPC, why do you keep on arguing? Oh, and by the way, Sniper's Hide is LowLight's house, so LowLight's rules----if you don't like his tone, pick up your marbles and go home. I don't know how he can be more clear, "break-in" is a time-consuming and almost always un-necessary job that can be done naturally in almost every case by shooting. If a rifle needs it, it'll tell you, otherwise, go shoot some more. If you can't see that, go do it your way, and we'll do it ours.

LowLight, thanks for your recounting of experiences yet again. I read your posts in a thread several months ago, essentially the same exact story, and it is good to hear it again. Sorry you have to repeat yourself so many times.

Wow, suck the d much? I think anyone with the ability to read and comprehend simple sentences can tell that I never advocated any type of barrel break in..... Yes, I know Lowlight owns the forum as he has banned me for civilly disagreeing with him before so I know that having a differing opinion can get you "in trouble" whether it's correct or not.

So, InkedIan, since you can read so well, where did I say that you were advocating barrel break-in? I am calling you out for going after LowLight for his "attitude," while you are now displaying elements of the same "attitude" that you decry coming from him. Again, I kindly suggest that if you don't like what he is saying, you take your marbles and go home. You don't need to continue making snide remarks.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I'm going to give a real world experience. I own 20 different AR 15/10's. I did not break them all in. The most expensive ones(Christensen, knights LPR) I broke in. They are the only AR's I have that will shoot under half inch all day long. I've broke in some other ones( rock rivers, POF) Not broke in the others(all different kinds) and had some it did not seem to make any difference. But the point is the Christensen fouled super bad in the beginning. But I was patient and did JB bore paste and broke in by one shot clean method till it quit fouling...20 rounds..and it is my best shooter. Hole in hole AR in my opinion is rare. In fact I would say it shoots better than my SURGEON that I did not break in because "it wasn't necessary." I think Breaking it in does infact do something. And if it's just in my head then that's fine too. But I have seen it work so I will forevermore break in a barrel.

That means nothing insofar as data until you try another rifle without breaking it in.

 

[MoBoost]

But the point is the Christensen fouled super bad in the beginning. But I was patient and did JB bore paste and broke in by one shot clean method till it quit fouling...20 rounds..and it is my best shooter.

a) I am not a professional logician, but that right there says that rifle was fouling in one shot. WTF?
b) So you basically hand lapped your barrel ... on a $3000 rifle... WTF(x2)?
c) Even if it was "fouling" - was accuracy affected?

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

I've stayed away from this thermal nuclear subject and should keep my mouth shut but I can't help myself.

Custom barrels; If you have to "break the barrel in" you're either paying too much or buying the wrong barrel. They are lapped for a reason. Finish being one of those reasons. In the break in you are conditioning the throat. Every reamer cuts differently. It also changes with the age of the reamer. There will always be a trailing wire edge left on the throat. There will always be a rough finish to a varying degree on the lead angle. Those are the facts of life. Can't change either of those conditions. This rough throat condition can and often does affect accuracy and copper fouling. With that being said some smiths have developed techniques to reduce or eliminate the need to "break in the barrel". Speeds, feeds, lubricants, minimizing wear as much as possible. Even polishing the throat area. I have a process that I've used for 15 years now. Works for me. And don't ask me what I do.

Factory barrels; It's a crap shoot. Depends on the manufacturer and the processes used which vary greatly. The only absolute is they are in business to make a profit.

 

[Frank Green]

I've stayed away from this thermal nuclear subject and should keep my mouth shut but I can't help myself.

Custom barrels; If you have to "break the barrel in" you're either paying too much or buying the wrong barrel. They are lapped for a reason. Finish being one of those reasons. In the break in you are conditioning the throat. Every reamer cuts differently. It also changes with the age of the reamer. There will always be a trailing wire edge left on the throat. There will always be a rough finish to a varying degree on the lead angle. Those are the facts of life. Can't change either of those conditions. This rough throat condition can and often does affect accuracy and copper fouling. With that being said some smiths have developed techniques to reduce or eliminate the need to "break in the barrel". Speeds, feeds, lubricants, minimizing wear as much as possible. Even polishing the throat area. I have a process that I've used for 15 years now. Works for me. And don't ask me what I do.

Factory barrels; It's a crap shoot. Depends on the manufacturer and the processes used which vary greatly. The only absolute is they are in business to make a profit.

+1 on what Dave says! The only thing you break in per say is the throat area of the barrel. The nicer the finish the chamber reamer leaves etc...the faster this will polish and break in during shooting. I know Dave polish his throats after he chambers barrels but I tell guys this. Unless you know what your doing don't do it. Dave is one of two or three gunsmiths that I know of that does it. If you don't know what your doing you can make the chamber/throat worse then what the reamer did.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[JeffLebowski]

Well I tried that LRI but after not finding and answer to my specific question ie "copper equilibrium" I decided to post it. Sorry if I wasted your time LRI but nobody forced you to be a dick nor did anyone force you to post. Hope you life gets better because you must be going though something awful to come on here and hate.

Let me google that for you

Let me google that for you

 

[Ibelieve1776]

Let me google that for you

Let me google that for you

Thats funny!! Duley noted. Yeah I just searched this site. My apologies.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Thats funny!! Duley noted. Yeah I just searched this site. My apologies.

Awesome. It is pretty handy. Have fun reading this site, I certainly do.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Here's a good thread: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...jective-research-barrel-break-procedures.html

 

[redbullitt]

I just request smooth bore when I fill out custom musket forms. It really saves a lot of time on cleaning and break in.

 

[CK_32]

You do not need to break in a rifle barrel. 90% if the people who do it don't even know what they are doing aside from he process someone made up.

Most if not all quality barrels especially match grade barrels are hand lapped. What is hand lapping in shirt hand lapping is a process that cleans up sharp edges and imperfections in/on the rifling in the barrel.

What "barrel break in" does is replicated hand lapping by a firing sequence to smooth out those imperfections. But again any quality barrel is already hand lapped so your just wasting ammo and barrel life doing this.

Some match guys do it because that is what they were raised and taught but if people would just break things down into mechanics and figure out why they would understand and realize oh hey my barrel is already hand lapped, no need for me to do this.

So again unless your barrel is not hand lapped then you do not need to break in a barrel. If it's not well it's probably not a high grade match barrel built for accuracy for it to really matter all that much in the first place.

 

[Ibelieve1776]

Here's a good thread: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...jective-research-barrel-break-procedures.html

Thats the best info I have seen. I wish I saw that earlier.

 

[madAB]

FWIW, I just picked up an AE MKIII in 6.5 Creedmoor (thanks Dave for the barrel). Here is what the manual that came with the rifle says about break in. One important thing to note is that it states "If user <b>wishes</b> to continue a barrel break in procedure. . . " If AI thought it was that important, I would imagine the manual would say that it must be done.

 

[100meterpeter]

I would just go with what a precision rifle maker suggests .Downloads

 

[Tickle]

Go ahead.....Beat it some more....

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

FWIW, I just picked up an AE MKIII in 6.5 Creedmoor (thanks Dave for the barrel). Here is what the manual that came with the rifle says about break in. One important thing to note is that it states "If user <b>wishes</b> to continue a barrel break in procedure. . . " If AI thought it was that important, I would imagine the manual would say that it must be done.

You're welcome.

 

[WhiteHorze]

300Whinny wrote:

*I am getting a new barrel for my 300wm and Im doing my research on barrel break in because I want to do this one the right way. Call me crazy but it makes perfect sense to me to leave the copper in the bore because when you think about it the first thing you do at the range is fire off some fouling shots. However I am also open to reasons why leaving copper in isnt the best idea. I have been watching a series on Youtube by TiborasaurusRex titled Sniper 101 in which he describes the "Copper Equilibrium" barrel break in method. Essentially you never clean out copper until accuracy drops off. Please give me your thoughts on break in and cleaning. Thank You*

If your shooting through a match grade tube your wasting time breaking in a barrel that already has a level of polish and finish that a factory barrel will never see.

Given that your shooting 300 Win Mag, It wouldn't hurt anything to run a wet patch down the tube every 100 or so rounds to clean out the carbon.

 

[MoBoost]

I'm trying to get this "break-in" deal right:
- throat or rifling has micro-tooling marks on a fresh barrel
- bullet also polishes those rough spots
- bullet sheds copper when it runs over those tooling marks
Right?

Here is my quesions:
What does cleaning physically do to the barrel itself?
Why is there a magic 1.14159265359 number of round between the cleaning cycles?
If it takes 50 rounds to polish the barrel - what difference does it make if you clean it once or 20 or 30 times or whatever it supposed to be?

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

I have no idea who came up with the idea of copper in a barrel is a good thing. Must have been a very lazy guy. A slight copper wash, faint streaks, does not hurt accuracy but copper attracts copper and is detrimental to accuracy. Those faint copper streaks are picking up more copper each time a bullet passes over them. It ends up looking like a nugget or copper peanut butter spread across the top of the land. This cuts into the bearing surface of the bullet. Who can say that's good for accuracy?

Carbon fouling, when it reaches a certain point, is detrimental to accuracy as well as constricting the bore, throat and/or even the neck area of the chamber ahead of the cartridge causing higher pressures.

You just spent big money on a barrel that has a good interior finish and is uniform in size from end to end. Why would you throw that money away by not cleaning/maintaining that barrel. Just get a cheapo blank from someone and spend the money you saved on ammo.

Barrels I chamber need little to no break in. When I have a new barrel I compress my cleaning schedule for the first 20-30 rounds to avoid fouling getting ahead of me. I learned in 35 years of shooting competition that it's better to stay ahead of copper and carbon as it takes time to get caught up.

I guess it's about perspective. No disrespect meant here. I come form a world where targets are measured with calipers and performance is recorded. Not shooting at rocks or steel plates.

I just certified two new 600 Yd. IBS records. The first measured .658" for 5 shots. The next, shot the same day, measured .336". You can cover that one with a dime. Here's another
one. 4.437". That doesn't sound like much but it's 10-5 shot groups, shot over the course of a season, different days/months/weather at 1000 yds. I can guarantee you they cleaned their rifles on a regular basis. Over clean? Quit possibly but barrels do require maintenance.

I've got detailed pics of what I'm talking about that I'll try and get up after Shot.

 

[MoBoost]

I have no idea who came up with the idea of copper in a barrel is a good thing. Must have been a very lazy guy. A slight copper wash, faint streaks, does not hurt accuracy but copper attracts copper and is detrimental to accuracy. Those faint copper streaks are picking up more copper each time a bullet passes over them. It ends up looking like a nugget or copper peanut butter spread across the top of the land. This cuts into the bearing surface of the bullet. Who can say that's good for accuracy?

Carbon fouling, when it reaches a certain point, is detrimental to accuracy as well as constricting the bore, throat and/or even the neck area of the chamber ahead of the cartridge causing higher pressures.

You just spent big money on a barrel that has a good interior finish and is uniform in size from end to end. Why would you throw that money away by not cleaning/maintaining that barrel. Just get a cheapo blank from someone and spend the money you saved on ammo.

Barrels I chamber need little to no break in. When I have a new barrel I compress my cleaning schedule for the first 20-30 rounds to avoid fouling getting ahead of me. I learned in 35 years of shooting competition that it's better to stay ahead of copper and carbon as it takes time to get caught up.

I guess it's about perspective. No disrespect meant here. I come form a world where targets are measured with calipers and performance is recorded. Not shooting at rocks or steel plates.

I just certified two new 600 Yd. IBS records. The first measured .658" for 5 shots. The next, shot the same day, measured .336". You can cover that one with a dime. Here's another
one. 4.437". That doesn't sound like much but it's 10-5 shot groups, shot over the course of a season, different days/months/weather at 1000 yds. I can guarantee you they cleaned their rifles on a regular basis. Over clean? Quit possibly but barrels do require maintenance.

I've got detailed pics of what I'm talking about that I'll try and get up after Shot.

Your input is priceless and I would love to hear more.
Can you please go into details.
- How long is the break-in and what's the regiment for what rifle/caliber?
- What's the regular cleaning interval for rifle/caliber?
- How long does the barrel last for acceptable accuracy and, honestly, what makes it unacceptable?
- If you re-cut the chamber - do you do the same break-in as a new barrel?

Sorry, so many questions - but opportunity to get answers from one of the best doesn't present itself very often.

 

[Asperly Aimless]

I have no idea who came up with the idea of copper in a barrel is a good thing. Must have been a very lazy guy. A slight copper wash, faint streaks, does not hurt accuracy but copper attracts copper and is detrimental to accuracy. Those faint copper streaks are picking up more copper each time a bullet passes over them. It ends up looking like a nugget or copper peanut butter spread across the top of the land. This cuts into the bearing surface of the bullet. Who can say that's good for accuracy?

Carbon fouling, when it reaches a certain point, is detrimental to accuracy as well as constricting the bore, throat and/or even the neck area of the chamber ahead of the cartridge causing higher pressures.

You just spent big money on a barrel that has a good interior finish and is uniform in size from end to end. Why would you throw that money away by not cleaning/maintaining that barrel. Just get a cheapo blank from someone and spend the money you saved on ammo.

Barrels I chamber need little to no break in. When I have a new barrel I compress my cleaning schedule for the first 20-30 rounds to avoid fouling getting ahead of me. I learned in 35 years of shooting competition that it's better to stay ahead of copper and carbon as it takes time to get caught up.

I guess it's about perspective. No disrespect meant here. I come form a world where targets are measured with calipers and performance is recorded. Not shooting at rocks or steel plates.

I just certified two new 600 Yd. IBS records. The first measured .658" for 5 shots. The next, shot the same day, measured .336". You can cover that one with a dime. Here's another
one. 4.437". That doesn't sound like much but it's 10-5 shot groups, shot over the course of a season, different days/months/weather at 1000 yds. I can guarantee you they cleaned their rifles on a regular basis. Over clean? Quit possibly but barrels do require maintenance.

I've got detailed pics of what I'm talking about that I'll try and get up after Shot.

A lot of wonder groups I see posted wouldn't even look good on the wailing wall at a benchrest match.

For the "long range precision" fun I've seen that acceptable groups (mystical sub-moa) can be had without breaking down and cleaning your barrel after every match, range session, etc. I've also seen that acceptable groups for the "long range precision" (mystical sub-moa) can be had if you break down and clean your barrel after every match, range session, etc.

In the game were a flyer makes you 100% non-competitive I clean the gun after every range session, match etc. If the builder did what they were supposed to, you will still shoot competitively if you clean your barrel on a regular basis. Of course you also have your note book.

Much of what goes on in the LRP world is broken down to the nth degree in the benchrest world. Brass prep, load workup, note taking, etc.

Two very different worlds of shooting. One is fun, and one is the most aggravating/enjoyable things you can do.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Your input is priceless and I would love to hear more.
Can you please go into details.
- How long is the break-in and what's the regiment for what rifle/caliber?
- What's the regular cleaning interval for rifle/caliber?
- How long does the barrel last for acceptable accuracy and, honestly, what makes it unacceptable?
- If you re-cut the chamber - do you do the same break-in as a new barrel?

Sorry, so many questions - but opportunity to get answers from one of the best doesn't present itself very often.

I'm leaving for the Shot Show in a few minutes. When I return I'll post some pics of barrels with copper fouling, heat checking etc. Some of the worst of the worst so you can get a clear picture of the rise and fall of barrel. Also some recommendations about the care of a precision rifle barrel. Not that anybody has to follow them but if you talk the accuracy talk then there is some work involved.

Addressing rechambering a barrel. Not worth the money and I won't run my reamers in any used barrels. They are full of carbon. Not good on reamers. All this is intertwined in the making of a consistently accurate rifle. Out of time.