Gunsmithing Barrel break in - myth or reality

[Møønlight]

I have read, and read some more. Even top gunsmith's seem to have different view's on barrel break in procedure's.

I know that different companie's have different recommendation's as well.

The big question I have is this: Is there any REAL data that shows a real difference in barrel life, accuracy or anything at that matter that sudgest breaking in a barrel is a must?

Thanks for any input.
Regards,
-Ms

 

[Rthur]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

I would check the sticky right above your post.

 

[RingingSteel]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

I am sure this topic has been beat to death.

The fact of the matter is... if I am going to spend 600 dollars for a new barrel and machine work I am going to do everything possible to give it a chance to shoot as good as possible. Even if a breakin doesn't make any difference it makes me feel like I'm doing my part. Follow the barrel manufactures recomendations and they will have no excuses if you happen to get a lemon.(which today is very rare)

 

[Shooter_308]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

You are going to get hundreds of different inputs from people. I personally believe the best break-in for both my rifles was to just shoot it, clean it periodically.

But at the same accord if i spent $500+ on a barrel set up, like it was said before i'd probably do a proper break-in.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Hold on guys ... I am getting some popcorn....

 

[Boltfluter]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hold on guys ... I am getting some popcorn.... </div></div>

Better make it fast!!

Regards,. Paul

 

[Pusher591]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

I shot my Brux from the get go. More I shot it, the faster it got. Finally gave it a good cleaning around 300 rounds and the bore was spotless, no copper build up or anything like that. MOST custom barrel makers hand lap or smooth out there barrels anyway.

If anything, sight it in 5-15 rounds then clean it. You'll be able to tell if you need to break it in more or not.

 

[Stewart]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Just shoot it until it stops shooting good then clean it. Then start over. I promise you more barrels are ruined by over cleaning than by shooting them.

 

[ugsly]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

This is how I like the break mine in, Nobody has it down...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRahHX9Zkg

Kc

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

My opinion on barrel treatment has changed. I used to argue why not.. break it in cause it doesn't take much time.
Now I trust the barrels more than peoples cleaning habits/equipment.

I say clean it well BEFORE firing a single round(when you get it new from the smith), then go fire away.

Clean every 100-200 rounds when you can. You could find yourself on varmint trips or at matches where you CANT clean for 100-200 rounds in one weekend. Better get used to it if you're one of those people.


On these $300+ match barrels, the throat is my only area of concern. And that has everything to do with the man who cut it.

 

[Scott_at_Vortex]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Or sometimes the man who made the reamer

 

[Tyler Kemp]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

I break in guns before I do my videos. 5 shots, clean between every one. You can really tell the gun cleans up much easier, and patches look way less nasty after every shot.

If nothing else it makes me feel better, and I haven't had a gun shoot poorly for me yet, so I'll keep doing it.

 

[eracer]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The big question I have is this: Is there any REAL data that shows a real difference in barrel life, accuracy or anything at that matter that <span style="text-decoration: line-through">suggest</span> PROVE breaking in a barrel is a must?

Thanks for any input.
Regards,
-Ms </div></div>I haven't seen anything approaching a double-blind, statistically valid test.

 

[buffybuster]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

What I do with a new barrel:

1) Clean it good to make sure I get out all the chips and oil.
2) Shoot 10-15rds fairly quickly, to get initial sight-in, to build up some heat in the barrel and smooth out any burrs in the throat.
3) Clean it good.
4) Confirm zero with cold bore. Barrel is now broke in.
5) Clean about every 1K rds or when something happens.


The only thing I really feel comfortable sending down the bore is bullets.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

I've got a very good explanation of what happens and why but the question is would anyone listen? Let's just say you paid good money to get a barrel that was lapped for uniformity and finish.

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got a very good explanation of what happens and why but the question is would anyone listen? Let's just say you paid good money to get a barrel that was lapped for uniformity and finish. </div></div>
I'm all ears.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

OK here goes. A top tier barrel does not require breaking in. Every chamber does require break in. The reamer cuts an angle in the throat in a shearing action. Looking at it with a bore scope it looks like it was cut with a file. Every reamers is different and the finish varies but it's still rough. There is also a wire edge trailing off the back side from the shearing action. Those conditions can't be helped just part of the process. The trailing wire edge can become substantial as the reamer dulls as well as the finish deteriorating more. The throat will strip jacket material off and it will be vaporized and be laid down in the barrel and contribute to copper fouling. A barrel will not clean up or shoot well until the throat is smoothed up.

Here's a photo of the throat of a sectioned piece of unfired barrel.

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

That really drives home that you need to shoot, clean and shoot for a few rounds. Thanks.

 

[RingingSteel]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Thanks Dave, that is a valuable pic and explaination.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Great Pic .. this I was not expecting. So Dave on average (if there is one) how many rounds does it take to break in smooth out the tooling?

-K

 

[turbo54]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Dave: Your post sounds similar to Kriegers stance. Question about it, though...

If the rough throat shaves jacket material off the bullet and the heat/pressure vaporizes the copper chips, then deposits in the bore, why do I not see a fairly uniform distribution of copper in the bore when beginning to shoot a fresh barrel? Rather, I see streaks along the lands and at the root of the lands.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

I used to be a brake it in guy but, over the years I've changed my views. Like Dave said, every chamber/throat needs to be broken in but, the real question is this, how many rounds will it take and why.

#1. Take a guy that chambers with an average reamer and no flush system. He only cleans the chips off the reamer / throat portion every .100" or so. His chamber / throat will be on the rough side and require more rounds being fired and cleaning to "slick it up" or "brake it in" Maybe to the tune of 30-50 rounds.

#2. Take a guy that keeps sharp reamers in his tool box and uses the same technique as #1 above but he cleans out the chips every .050" or so from the mid way point of chambering to completion. His throat may slick up in 15-20 rounds.

#3. This guy drills, pre bores and or roughs his chambers first. He uses a high pressure flush system during the roughing and chambering process and sharp reamers to complete the finished chamber. He cleans out every .050" to .060" from the mid way point to completion. His throats will be clean in under 10 shots and usually in under 8.

All three smiths use barrel "X", one of the best money can buy. The only difference is their technique, this is what really dictates the brake in process and the number of rounds it will take. One of the true measures of a quality throat in a chambering job is how much copper can you see in the bore at the muzzle after 5-8 shots. Using method #3 above I can tell you that you wont see much if any copper. This is a very good indication that the throat isn’t shaving jacket material off like a file during firing.

It really isn’t the barrel that’s being broken in, it's the throat. Like Dave is saying, prior to chambering, the barrel blank is as good as it's ever going to be. After we fire the first round through it, it's down hill from there

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great Pic .. this I was not expecting. So Dave on average (if there is one) how many rounds does it take to break in smooth out the tooling?

-K </div></div>

It depends on many factors. They include the condition of the reamer, the cutting fluid, flush system or dip and cut, the feed rate. This is for those that clean their barrels. Use a copper remover as an indicator. Sweets, 50 BMG, Bore tech Eliminator anything that will give you a color indicator when copper is present. Shoot a few rounds and clean. Say every 10 rounds or so soak with a copper remover and look for color. I've never seen a barrel that as the throat was smoothed up the copper fouling/color didn't decrease at the same time.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave: Your post sounds similar to Kriegers stance. Question about it, though...

If the rough throat shaves jacket material off the bullet and the heat/pressure vaporizes the copper chips, then deposits in the bore, why do I not see a fairly uniform distribution of copper in the bore when beginning to shoot a fresh barrel? Rather, I see streaks along the lands and at the root of the lands. </div></div>

This is the area that's probably the most vague. We know that as the throat smoothes out fouling decreases. Some say the surface finish of the barrel improves. I don't think so and many others agree with me. The only other explanation is the material stripped off of the bullets is vaporized and is laid down in the barrel. It atracks more copper as bullets pass over. The streaks you see are from the bullet traveling down the barrel. Most bullets only touch on top of the lands, about 40% in the middle of the groove and the base upsets to form a gas seal.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

To kinda touch on what Dave is saying. When the copper of the jacket bullet is getting stripped and at the high temperature of powder being burned the copper goes into suspension and like in a liquid state/form. As the copper of the bullet starts to cool as it goes down the barrel it comes out of suspension and will glue itself to that point in the bore of the barrel. Hope that made some sense.

I tell guys for the most part the only area of the barrel your breaking in is the throat like Dave and Roscoe we're getting at with the condition of the reamers and how nice the chamber is cut. The nicer the finish the chamber reamer left the faster this area will break in / polish and leave less copper fouling etc....I don't believe that you break anything else in inside the bore of the barrel.

Also keep in mind that when you see copper fouling in a bore of a barrel that some copper is normal. As long as it doesn't keep building up and causing accuracy problems don't worry about it. Shoot the gun and clean it when done shooting.

Typically you will see a little more fouling in the bore of the barrel when the barrel is brand new until the throat smooths out. Then the barrel normally won't have a ton of copper after that until the barrels starts to get a high round count on it (high round count will vary with what caliber the barrel is chambered in etc...example being a .308win. vs. a .300 win. mag.) as the barrel starts getting a lot of rounds on it typically you will start to see the fouling go up. This is because the throat of the barrel is getting rough from wear/erosion and you will start to see the accuracy to fall off etc...

Also the copper in the bullet jackets can vary from lot to lot. Copper fouling can change from shooting a different lot of bullets/ammo.

Also velocity and pressure can have an impact on fouling as well. When you start hitting around 3200fps. fouling can go up. Your pressure can go up and that can lead to having a increase in fouling but you don't see a increase in velocity. Pressure and heat go hand in hand.

Guess I kinda got off topic at the end! Sorry!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[petesp]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

How about the guys that are shooting moly out of new barrels, I have a few buddies that swear they will take a new barrel, shoot moly and not even think about cleaning for 3000-4000 rounds. Me, I never had such luck as they did.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Moly helps with copper fouling. It doesn't do much to prevent carbon fouling. As Frank said the larger the case and the faster the bullet travels fouling, both copper and carbon, increase. What works for a forgiving 308W will not work for a 300WM.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

I'd like to see two barrels throats, at round count 100.
One barrel getting cleaned every shot for the first 20, then shot as normal and cleaned at 100.
The other barrel just cleaned real good at 100.

I wonder how much the break-in would matter after 100 rounds has gone down it and a good cleaning.

 

[taliv]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

so refreshing to hear people who actually know what they're talking about on this subject.


the mods should sticky this thread, and let the "objective research" thread (which contained no objective research) disappear

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Good point but coming from the LR benchrest world whenever possible I'll keep up with the cleaning. I've tuned up quite a few hunting rifles for customers and if the fouling gets ahead of me it takes too long to get all of it out at the range. It's one of those pay me now or pay me latter things. I'll clean on a regular abbreviated schedule to make range time productive.

 

[mattj]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taliv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so refreshing to hear people who actually know what they're talking about on this subject.


the mods should sticky this thread, and let the "objective research" thread (which contained no objective research) disappear</div></div>

I've seen borescope pictures of how throats are rough, and a theory of "why break-in good" that I see repeated from time to time, but nothing that actually proves or reinforces said theory.

Really, there's zero good evidence on either side -- people just say stuff.

As it stands, I'm lazy, and "just shooting the damn thing till it stops shooting well" yields results that are more than adequate for what I do. (might do a precautionary cleaning followed by foulers if there is a very high round count match and I haven't cleaned in a while just to make sure the fouling doesn't catch up to me).

Until somebody offers real evidence that it matters (and how much it matters -- I suspect not much or it would be relatively easy to prove definitively with real evidence) it just isn't worth my time or effort.

For benchresters where every gnats hair matters -- whatever seems to work for you (if nothing else, placebo effect may be worth a thousandth).

 

[Rob01]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Dave you ever do any playing with the Tubb TMS bullets for break in? I have used them before in a couple rifles and they seem to work very well. 3 shots, clean and then three more. Done. Having talked to them the coating on the bullets is a finer grit than is used to lap the barrels.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Rob

I have never used them but they accomplish the same thing. I would need some time with a few barrels and a borescope before I could comment further on the process. I have a proprietary treatment I do to all the barrels that I chamber before they leave the shop. As in many things there are different ways to skin a cat.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave you ever do any playing with the Tubb TMS bullets for break in? I have used them before in a couple rifles and they seem to work very well. 3 shots, clean and then three more. Done. Having talked to them the coating on the bullets is a finer grit than is used to lap the barrels. </div></div>

Hey Rob! I just got done shooting a box of ammo thru a factory barrel. Once I get to shoot my regular hand loads thru it I will make a post about it. Tubb nicely gave me a loaded box of ammo to try and some bullets to load as well so I could do some testing with them.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Marriedman1]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Guys is there any method you may use to go in and polish this throat area after chambering like with a wood stick or cratex?

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GLOWWORM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys is there any method you may use to go in and polish this throat area after chambering like with a wood stick or cratex? </div></div>

I do know of a couple of smiths that hand polish the throat after chambering but I'm not going to name names or how they do it etc...

To do something like this and do it right takes a lot of practice to get it right. For the average guy/smith I don't recommend it.

Hopefully the couple that I'm thinking of do lurk here on the hide and make posts from time to time will see this and it will be up to them if they want to make a response.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Rob01]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Thanks Dave and Frank. Look forward to hearing what you find out Frank.

I used the Final Finish bullets on a factory 300WM and wrote an article on it back in 2001 and it worked well as smoothing out the barrel. I added some paragraphs about the TMS as well and it's on our site

http://www.teamblaster.net/reviews/TubbFFTMS.pdf

I don't have a bore scope so can't speak of wht the bore looks like after the use but from the performance I find that the FF helps a factory barrel and the TMS does well for a quick break in on a custom barrel.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

Good discussion....

I've looked at a lot of throats with my bore scope so I know the pic put up by Dave looks just like they do. What I did not know was that the copper I saw further down the bore was being plated there as a result of what is happening back up the bore. I always thought it was a tight or rough spot in the bore.

The thought of using TMS bullets on a new quality barrel with an correctly cut throat make me nervous but it would be very interesting to see the results. Might not be as bad as it sounds.

I've seen Final Finsh bullets smooth up a rough bore but to me they were a last resort because of how much it can move the thoat. If your action is such that you can seat your bullets out far enough to find the lands, it is not a problem. Otherwise, you'll likely need to find a load that likes jump.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Barrel break in - myth or reality

My .243 was the first barrel I used the TMS rounds on back around 2007 and I was kind of worried at first but it turned out to be the most accurate rifle I have owned. Easily 1/4 MOA. I don't think anything bad came of the use of the TMS.