Barrel Choice

[don447]

I am having my 3rd and last bolt action build done now. As it will be the last one I would like some advice or an opinion from you more experienced bolt guys. I am a severely disabled combat veteran and I live on a small military disability pension. So I have to save for long time and sometimes sell a gun that I no longer care about to fund a new project. That being said, I don't have to and am not going to go cheap especially since it's the last build.

I have Krieger stainless heavy barrels, M40 profile, on my .308 & 6.5CM precision rifles. I have a new rifle builder now since I was cheated and just plain ripped off by the builder of my previous rifles, Tactical Rifles. As I said previously, I have always been a Krieger guy. I have 3 rifles with Krieger barrels. But my new builder prefers other barrels. Do here is the question for you guys that certainly know a lot more than I do.

I am building a .300 Win Mag in a super heavy platform (due to severe disabilities the rifle will be shot from bench onky)
I have these 3 choices:

Krieger Heavy Varmit (my personal favorite)
Muller Heavy Varmit (my builders recommendation)
Bartlein Heavy Barrel
My only requirement aside from best possible accuracy is a big, fat profile with a lot of weight.
So please give me your recommendations.
Donovan

 

[Rob01]

I am a big fan of Bartlein barrels and have them on almost all my rifles now but my second choice would be the Kreigers as I have them on the other that doesn't have a Bartlein. Have used many others over the years and these two have never let me down.

Also why so much weight? If looking for recoil reduction just get a good brake. On the magnum something like the Patriot Valley Arms Rocket Scientist.
http://patriotvalleyarms.com/rocket-scientist-muzzle-brake/

 

[don447]

I am a big fan of Bartlein barrels and have them on almost all my rifles now but my second choice would be the Kreigers as I have them on the other that doesn't have a Bartlein. Have used many others over the years and these two have never let me down.

Also why so much weight? If looking for recoil reduction just get a good brake. On the magnum something like the Patriot Valley Arms Rocket Scientist.
http://patriotvalleyarms.com/rocket-scientist-muzzle-brake/

Why the weight? Well a couple of reasons - I have so much damage to my body both upper and lower, I need the rifle to absorb as much i f not all of the recoil possible even with a break. My .308 M40-A1 doesn't have a brake but the rifle with the scope weights about 14 lbs. So it absorbs a great deal of the recoil. Plus the other reason for the heavy weight is purely cosmetic, I just plain love the look of those big, fat bench rest barrels. As far a brake, as I said my .308 & 6.5CM precision rifles don't have a brake. But this .300 Win Mag will definitely have one. I leaning towards the Area 419 Hellfire brake.

 

[Idaho CTD]

If you like Krieger there is no reason not to use one for this build. Your builder may like something else better but there is no denying Krieger's track record in all forms of precision shooting so he should have no problem building you what you want. Honestly I have great barrels from most all the major players. I personally prefer cut barrels because I think, due to the difference in how they are made compared to button barrel, they produce less bad barrels.

BTW I've tested the PVA and 419 brakes and neither one was spectacular. The PVA actually did quite poor IMO.

 

[Yoteslayer50]

I to like Bartlein for my first choice with kreiger a close second I think both would perform very well and thank you for your service it is greatly appreciated good luck

 

[don447]

If you like Krieger there is no reason not to use one for this build. Your builder may like something else better but there is no denying Krieger's track record in all forms of precision shooting so he should have no problem building you what you want. Honestly I have great barrels from most all the major players. I personally prefer cut barrels because I think, due to the difference in how they are made compared to button barrel, they produce less bad barrels.

BTW I've tested the PVA and 419 brakes and neither one was spectacular. The PVA actually did quite poor IMO.

So if I understand correctly your recommendation for the muzzle brake is the Beast Brake? I'm not familiar with them. I have been a pistol guy in civilian life after my medical retirement. I build and shoot my own 1911s b/c I was very fortunate to have an elderly retired 1911 builder teach me the art of building them. For Me it is really good therapy for PTSD. But b/c I am just now getting back into rifles I am not familiar with most of the muzzle brakes. The only brakes I've been around and shot are the Area 419 and the Surefire brakes. I know nothing about the Beast Brake

 

[Idaho CTD]

Of course I'm biased because I make them but I test as many of my competitors brakes as I have time for as well. My testing is as unbiased as I can possibly make it. I even test with a chronograph so people know I'm not running a reduced load through my brakes to make them look better and the gun is fired electronically so there is no outside influence.

Here is a test I did with the PVA and 419 brakes compared to mine, APA, and Terminator brakes. I forgot to bring a 5 port Beast brake that day but if you look at my other videos you'll see it does better then all the others on a 300wm and 338 Lapua. I'll probably buy a few more brakes this next month and do a big test with all of the brakes I have at once so people can see them side by side all on the same day. If I have time I will build a lighter sled to increase the resolution (the spread between the brakes). Look at the size difference between the PVA and 419 brakes and the brakes that do better then them. Sizes doesn't always mean they are more effective.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

All the major players make good barrels now. Find a good deal and not worry so much about who made it.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

@Idaho CTD Cool video, love seeing some data on brakes.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

I'm not even going to read everyone's replies.
Kreiger obviously good
Dan Muller I know his background good
Bartlein obviously good

 

[pmclaine]

Love my Schneider M40A1 contract profile, shoots great.

Love my Kreiger MTU built by Raven Rifles, shoots great.

Sad because I have a .223 Bartlein I wanted Raven Rifles to build into a M40 clone lazer but he has retired . I bet it will shoot great once I find a builder educated in the USMC mods as good as Mark is.

Gettin a Winchester M70 blueprinted and it will wear a Douglas heavy #7. Im confident it will shoot great.

 

[Rob01]

Why the weight? Well a couple of reasons - I have so much damage to my body both upper and lower, I need the rifle to absorb as much i f not all of the recoil possible even with a break. My .308 M40-A1 doesn't have a brake but the rifle with the scope weights about 14 lbs. So it absorbs a great deal of the recoil. Plus the other reason for the heavy weight is purely cosmetic, I just plain love the look of those big, fat bench rest barrels. As far a brake, as I said my .308 & 6.5CM precision rifles don't have a brake. But this .300 Win Mag will definitely have one. I leaning towards the Area 419 Hellfire brake.

Was just wondering as a good brake can take away more recoil than a heavy barrel and with a lot of damage to the body a lighter weight rifle might be better. 14 pounds isn't overly heavy for a rifle though but a 300WM with a heavy barrel and brake will recoil less for sure. And that you love the look of the heavy barrel then it seems like that's all that matters.

 

[Tony1320]

I've used Bartlein, Krieger and trying a Hawk Hill right now

Any of them will work excellent just pick your favorite brand. Bartlein is my first choice

You mentioned being ripped off whoever you choose this time to do your build make sure its someone reputable there's lots of great guys on here with lots of reviews

 

[don447]

This time I did very thorough research on the builder, Alamo Precision Rifles of Hurst, Texas. The company is owned and run by two fellow combat veterans. Their work is just absolutely incredible. I personally examined 5 of their builds. Those rifles were phenomenal. I shot one and it was 1-hole gun. But to tell you how honest the owners, Robert & Jason are and how high of integrity they have what they did for me says it all. I stupidly did no research at all on Tactical Rifles in Florida when I ordered the 1st of 2 rifles from them. The 1st rifle came out ok, at least out to 200 yards although I was overcharged more than a little. But the 2nd rifle, a 6.5CM, ordered 3 years later was an absolute horrible nightmare. Everything about the rifle was done wrong or so poorly that the $4300 gun was completely useless. When I contacted Tactical Rifles about all the problems I was treated in an inexcusable, rude, derogatory, insulting manner. I've never allowed anyone to speak to me in that manner. That's when I went back & did the research I should've done initially and found case after case of customers paying ridiculously overcharged prices, getting a gun that was useless and getting no satisfaction let alone making the problem right by Rooney the owner of Tactical Rifles. I got the same treatment the others before me did. I was afraid that I couldn't get anybody willing to work on the rifle as it was such a screwed up piece of junk. But not only were Robert and Jason at Alamo willing to take on the project but were so incensed and angry that a brother combat & disabled vet was cheated and basically stolen from, they completely refused to charge me any labor for repairing everything that was wrong. And it was everything. The barrel fit was so bad they had to cut off .060 from the barrel and set it back. Thry had to cut a new chamber and lead in. They also to recrown the barrel as it was not true. The bedding had to be machined out and rebedded. The bottom metal was replaced because it was cheap junk and improperly fitted. Even the barrel channel in the stock was crooked with barrel not running straight and true. They replaced the fire control unit with a high quality Gretan (I was charged for the high end unit by Tactical Rifles but they actually used a stock Remington). Alamo has over 7 hours of labor in the rebuild of this rifle yet refused to charge me for the labor. Well I was so humbled by what they did for me and the care they used in doing the work that I paid them to repaint the stock as it had gotten chipped and to bead blast the barreled action to remove the cheap epoxy paint that never cured and got all over my hands whenever I touched the rifle. I had them properly apply cerakote on the metal and oven-cure it. So between all this work that I saw with my own eyes and almost a DOZEN positive recommendations from gun dealers and customers, I am confident that I have found my builder. Attached is a photo after they completely rebuilt the gun and refinished the stock and action.

 

[Tony1320]

This time I did very thorough research on the builder, Alamo Precision Rifles of Hurst, Texas. The company is owned and run by two fellow combat veterans. Their work is just absolutely incredible. I personally examined 5 of their builds. Those rifles were phenomenal. I shot one and it was 1-hole gun. But to tell you how honest the owners, Robert & Jason are and how high of integrity they have what they did for me says it all. I stupidly did no research at all on Tactical Rifles in Florida when I ordered the 1st of 2 rifles from them. The 1st rifle came out ok, at least out to 200 yards although I was overcharged more than a little. But the 2nd rifle, a 6.5CM, ordered 3 years later was an absolute horrible nightmare. Everything about the rifle was done wrong or so poorly that the $4300 gun was completely useless. When I contacted Tactical Rifles about all the problems I was treated in an inexcusable, rude, derogatory, insulting manner. I've never allowed anyone to speak to me in that manner. That's when I went back & did the research I should've done initially and found case after case of customers paying ridiculously overcharged prices, getting a gun that was useless and getting no satisfaction let alone making the problem right by Rooney the owner of Tactical Rifles. I got the same treatment the others before me did. I was afraid that I couldn't get anybody willing to work on the rifle as it was such a screwed up piece of junk. But not only were Robert and Jason at Alamo willing to take on the project but were so incensed and angry that a brother combat & disabled vet was cheated and basically stolen from, they completely refused to charge me any labor for repairing everything that was wrong. And it was everything. The barrel fit was so bad they had to cut off .060 from the barrel and set it back. Thry had to cut a new chamber and lead in. They also to recrown the barrel as it was not true. The bedding had to be machined out and rebedded. The bottom metal was replaced because it was cheap junk and improperly fitted. Even the barrel channel in the stock was crooked with barrel not running straight and true. They replaced the fire control unit with a high quality Gretan (I was charged for the high end unit by Tactical Rifles but they actually used a stock Remington). Alamo has over 7 hours of labor in the rebuild of this rifle yet refused to charge me for the labor. Well I was so humbled by what they did for me and the care they used in doing the work that I paid them to repaint the stock as it had gotten chipped and to bead blast the barreled action to remove the cheap epoxy paint that never cured and got all over my hands whenever I touched the rifle. I had them properly apply cerakote on the metal and oven-cure it. So between all this work that I saw with my own eyes and almost a DOZEN positive recommendations from gun dealers and customers, I am confident that I have found my builder. Attached is a photo after they completely rebuilt the gun and refinished the stock and action.

That's really awesome to hear they are treating you above and beyond and I'm glad someone is taking care of you

I hear they do really great work and Dave Preston is shooting for them now which says a lot

Make sure to post pics when you get it

 

[don447]

As a follow-up to my post from earlier today in regard to Alamo Precision Rifles going a million miles out of there way to help a disabled veteran that had been screwed over, cheated so badly by Tactical Rifles I couldn't just leave the store with just a thank you after they took a total piece of $4300 crap rifle that was completely unusable and made it beautiful rifle that not only will shoot now but probably shoot very well. So I decided since these great guys did all of that work for me and refused to charge me I needed to do something for them as well as myself. So I put a deposit down on special .300 Win Mag. I will be selling 2 possibly 3 guns to fund the project as I have very little extra cash after blowing all that $ on the crap rifle. I live on a too small military disability pension. So I have no problem selling some guns to own of Alamo Precision Rifles own creations.
Donovan

 

[brianf]

krieger and bartlein are almost the same.
if i remember the bartlein guys used to work at krieger and then moved on to start their own.
that being said i have a few of both and cannot tell the difference.
accurate is accurate...there is probable more difference barrel to barrel with in those 2 companies then there is between those 2 companies.
one of the original big hits bartlein had was the ability to do some crazy twists because the machines were newer or had a different contol system.

one thing about brakes that sled tests do show very well (not trying to start anything), is what other movement there is to the rifle.
Up/down, left right or any combination.

this example takes it way to far but:
if you take 2 brakes close/tape off one side of a brake but it moves 5", yet the brake with both sides open moves 7". which one would you rather have.
since i live in NY which sucks i cant have a supressor, ive become a brake hoarder over the years.

 

[USMC 308]

Man, that's a horror story....glad the new shop is taking good care of you.

To start, I would look at each barrel mentioned and see if they are button or cut rifled. Cut rifled barrels dominate in the precision rifle community.....but button rifling done properly can be equally as accurate.

I had a Hawk Hill barrel put on my 6.5 CM recently and it shoots circles around the Premium button rifled barrel it replaced. I too went with a heavy contour M24 profile. I cannot believe how easily the Hawk Hill cleans up.....it does not copper foul. I'm sure there is some copper in there but it's the "good kind". It shoots .5 moa easily and .25 moa and under if I do my part....I don't handload either, all factory ammo.

Last range trip, 5 rounds

 

[padom]

All the barrels mentioned will shoot. I have them all. I have been extremely impressed with Dan's cut rifled barrels. They are shooting lights out.

 

[Idaho CTD]

one thing about brakes that sled tests do show very well (not trying to start anything), is what other movement there is to the rifle.
Up/down, left right or any combination.

this example takes it way to far but:
if you take 2 brakes close/tape off one side of a brake but it moves 5", yet the brake with both sides open moves 7". which one would you rather have.
since i live in NY which sucks i cant have a supressor, ive become a brake hoarder over the years.

This is reaching really hard. Sure it's possible but it would be a major POS of a brake if it had that much lateral or up and down movement to cause that much drag on the sled. My sled has top and bottom rails so while the up and down can cause additional drag if it's extreme I doubt it's much of a issue for a "normal" brake. There is no perfect testing platform to test every variable. A sled is good to compare brakes side by side at the same time. This gives a pretty close approximation to felt recoil. It will also give a close approximation to how a gun with a brake will compare to other calibers without a brake.

 

[ChadL]

I leaning towards the Area 419 Hellfire brake.

I have a Hellfire brake on my Tikka 6.5cm and like it just fine. I would be hesitant running it on a magnum though. It does direct gas back toward the shooter. With a big magnum, like 300wm, I'm afraid the concussive forces may be a headache, literally, after several rounds. I'm building a 300 norma and am looking at brakes that direct the gasses more toward 90 degrees than back at the shooter. I've been looking at David Tubb's brake that he just came out with pretty hard. Of course this is just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[brianf]

This is reaching really hard. Sure it's possible but it would be a major POS of a brake if it had that much lateral or up and down movement to cause that much drag on the sled. My sled has top and bottom rails so while the up and down can cause additional drag if it's extreme I doubt it's much of a issue for a "normal" brake. There is no perfect testing platform to test every variable. A sled is good to compare brakes side by side at the same time. This gives a pretty close approximation to felt recoil. It will also give a close approximation to how a gun with a brake will compare to other calibers without a brake.

extreme example with our a doubt, but some brakes do have alot more up and down hop than others.
i personally can move my body around to deal with left ot right but i always found it hard to stop the up and down, especially when shooting from a bench.

 

[don447]

As mentioned in my previous posts, I was the victim of a crooked, lying thief when I had my 6.5 Creedmoor built. I won't go through the long story and all the gory details again. But I will say that Robert Wagoner of Alamo Precision Rifles in Hurst, TX took a complete P.O.S. rifle that couldn't even be shot and turned it into a beautiful work of art and a true precision rifle. He also stripped the sorry epoxy (more likely Krylon) from the metal and applied a true, beautifully done cerakote finish on it. Also re-finished the tan McMillan stock with a really great looking mulit-tone camo finish. I am attaching a photo of the "new" rifle. I took it out last week to do the sight-in / barrel break-in. After finishing the barrel break-in, I then shot to try get a nice target. What was interesting was a 100 yards using 140 grain OTM rounds, it shot two 3-shot one hole groups. I was ecstatic. But then I switch over to Federal Gold Medal Berger 130 grain OTM rounds. The Krieger 6.5CM barrel doesn't seem to like the lighter 130 grain rounds as it was not 1-hole groups at all like it was with 140 grain bullets. In fact, I had difficulty trying to get super tight groups with the 130s. Yet with the 140s, 1-hole groups at 100 were almost automatic. But we've all seen it before where a rifle just loves one particular brand / type of ammunition and just not at all like a another kind of ammunition. Here us the photo of my "new" 6.5CM that I totally consider an Alamo Precision Rifles and NOT a Tactical Rifles.net rifle anymore. We even polished off the TR logo since Alamo Precision re-did everything including cutting, setting back, rechambering and recrowning the barrel. Too bad it doesn't like 130 grain. But lots and lots of good 140 grain bullets and factory loads available.