Barrel Contour and Length - yeah, that question again! haha

[Baron23]

Hi guys – this is my first post and I do warmly invite you to laugh and make fun of me, my ignorance, and my dumb questions! LOL Also, yes…I am verbose and will try to not let this turn into a wall of text, but will probably fail.

I’m a long time shotgunner, was a competitive American Skeet shooter for a number of decades, but at 67, with a heinous lumbar, and a few heart attacks in the bank, swinging a 10 lb shotgun 500 times in a weekend in 100+ summer mid-Atlantic heat is just not happening anymore.

So, recently I have taken an interest in rifle shooting and have found long range precision shooting to be a fascinating and engaging subject. I have enjoyed educating myself via content on the net and friends here in Maryland that do long range target shooting and crop damage hunting at range.

But, I don’t know much about rifles…or at least not as compared to shotguns. If a new clay target shooter came up to me and said that they were going to buy a Kolar with 32” barrels, with one look at them I can pretty much tell if this 12 lb gun will be too much for them. And, I know quite a bit about shotgun stock fitting, mount and stance, weight and balance considerations, choke selection, etc. Rifles, not so much.

I do own a nice deer gun that I have also enjoyed shooting at the range. It’s a Remington 5R SS Gen 2 SS in an HS stock in .308 with a 20” barrel and a Harrells brake. It’s a very nice gun and seems to have a good barrel, shoots well, and is a length and weight that I like for this purpose.

But now I want to have built a long range (1k yard) precision rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor on a JAE-700 chassis. This is where you get to laugh at me as the gun I’m planning to build far exceeds my skill level and certainly my knowledge. This is not exactly a bucket list project, but life is short (and the way mine is going it might be very short) and I have decided that I want a gun like this and intend to get some training and challenge myself to grow into it. At a minimum, this ought to keep me occupied for at least a few years!

I am working with an expert gun smith who many of you seem to know and highly respect, Robert Gradous (who happened to actually have a JAE-700 chassis which now has my name on it). Robert and I have talked but he is currently occupied with some personal business and so I have also spent some time on the phone with his friend and sort of partner, Richard Davis, who I have found to be knowledgeable as well as a fine gentleman. They have offered me their insights and advice.

I have also spent a good bit of time reading threads here and elsewhere on the subjects of my questions, below. All of this has been very helpful but I’m still spinning myself into the ground on the subject of what barrel contour and length to put on it. Please feel free to slap your forehead at this point as it seems like my questions on this subject are like the perennial question of #7.5 or 8 you will see come up on any trapshooting related board on a weekly basis (well, maybe even daily LOL)

The gun I’m planning to build is:

• 6.5 Creedmoor
• JAE-700 SA chassis – yes, because it’s very cool looking but also because it is adjustable, and if I don’t like it then I know I can sell it and put the metal in another in a Manners, McMillan, etc. But, its heavy at about 6-6.5 lbs (it’s a Gen 1 JAE in new condition, used for 3 day demo only)
• Surgeon 591 SA – Robert likes Surgeon so that’s what we are going with and he and Richard have some new old stock
• Trigger Tech 700 Special
• Scope - TBD
• Barrel – Robert likes Kreiger and again, no argument from me. But, contour, length and how this will balance out are the big question yet to be determined

The purpose of the gun will be range shooting from a bench, prone, and maybe a bit of crop damage hunting but that’s from a portable bench also. While this may well look like a PRS gun to many of you, at my age and condition I do not plan to enter those types of competitions or do any run-n-gun type stuff. I doubt that I will be doing any long, time compressed, strings of shots so I wonder if heat tolerance is much of a factor for my intended use as compared to the competition folks.

And it is not intended as a hunting gun and I don’t plan to lug it around in the field. My goal is just to challenge myself to develop long range shooting technique and accomplishments. This may include some instruction and practice in position shooting, but I do not expect to do much of that, tbh.

I have stared at barrel contours, weight, and length until my eyes are crossed. While I know what a 32” set of O/U barrels are like from personal experience, I have never seen in person or handled rifles with most of these contours and looking at dimensioned drawings and specs has only taken me so far.

My thoughts are a 24” barrel in case I want to put a brake (probably not on this heavy 6.5 gun) or a suppressor. But, I’m thinking about leaving it initially at 26” with a clean muzzle, shooting it for a bit, and then if necessary or desired, I can have it shortened to 24”.

The Krieger contour I’m looking at are:

Contour	Finished Length (in)	Weight at Finished Length (lbs)	Muzzle Dia at Finished Length (in)	Muzzle Dia at 24" (in)	Muzzle Dia at 26" (in)
M24	26	6	0.900	0.925	0.900
#8 Standard Target	26	6	0.820	0.853	0.820
#18 Light Varmint	28	6.5	0.875	0.932	0.903
#15 Standard Palma	30	5.5	0.820	0.844	0.836
#14 Heavy Palma	30	6.5	0.900	0.924	0.916
Rem Varmint	26	4.5	0.830	0.842	0.830

A consistent high degree of precision is my primary goal. I want a gun that will ensure that I’m the limiting factor and not the rifle (which probably includes pea shooters given my lack of skill and experience).

Another consideration I have is the total weight of the rifle considering that the chassis is 6.5 lbs. With an M24 barrel at 26”, I estimate this gun to end up in the 17-18 lbs range. I’m alright with this given how I intend to use it, but I believe that this is as heavy as I would want to go as I’m not a big guy.

Finally, when looking at contours the subject of balance occurs to me. I know that with shotguns, a weight to the rear/light barrel gun will point more quickly but also be more squirrely and harder to keep under control. I may not be right, and I solicit your input, but it seems that a very stock heavy unbalance rifle would be harder to get settled and be easier to pull off of the target. So, I think I need some weight out front. Thoughts???

I also do not know how thick the muzzle end should be for best rigidity but it was easy to calculate muzzle diameter from the Krieger data. I don’t believe that any of the diameters I show above for either 24” or 26” will cause any problems but I do not know and do solicit your input on this (and yes, this is really a question for Robert, I suppose).

At this point, I’m thinking about going with M24 at 26”, no fluting, threaded and capped, and call it a day. Alternatively, heavy Palma at 26”.

Looking at the standard Palma at cut to 26” and the Rem Varmint at 26”, these end up being almost the identical…very little difference. Is this Rem Varmint contour what I have on my 5R (yeah, don’t bother looking at Remington’s site)?

And looking at #18 Light Varmint, when cut to 26” is almost the same barrel as the M24.

My questions to the board membership would be what Krieger contour and length would you suggest for the uses I described above and for good balance and handling in a JAE chassis.

Oh, dang…I did write a wall of text. Hopefully it was just a bit entertaining. And thanks for your time reading all of this drivel! I look forward to your input and insights.

 

[Supersubes]

Holy crap, I thought I was long winded. Any of those barrels will do exactly what you want. Have one of your kids point to one on the screen, done. Your length considerations are fine

 

[Baron23]

Holy crap, I thought I was long winded. Any of those barrels will do exactly what you want. Have one of your kids point to one on the screen, done. Your length considerations are fine

Thank you for your reply. Yes, long winded (haha) but writing it up helped me organize my thoughts on it and at least we didn't have to go back and forth with a lot of questions and answers.

Cheers

 

[Supersubes]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, long winded (haha) but writing it up helped me organize my thoughts on it and at least we didn't have to go back and forth with a lot of questions and answers.

Cheers

Your goal is pretty standard, with zero hurdles. Look at the barrel schematics and that will tell you where the weight is, but really it would be hairsplitting. The first three contours are straight tapers, the last three are essentially heavy sporter tapers. Note the weights are at their respective finish lengths.

 

[Steel head]

I don’t like super heavy rifles so I’m a big fan of medium and heavy Palma and similarly weight barrels.
24-26” is a nice length.

 

[Vargmat]

I will and would not go above standard Palma, and dont want a barrel longer than 24" finished.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

My MPA-chassis'ed 6.5CM built on a Stiller TAC-30 action has a Bartlein 26" M24 contour. With the 3-pound Vortex Razor 4.5-27x56 mounted, it weighs 19.5 pounds and is slightly muzzle-heavy. The round count is getting up there; replacement is 28" medium palma to save a pound or so. Like you - I'm same age - arthritis is an issue as well as depleted muscle mass. Balance should improve a bit. Balance is not as important in a heavy rifle as in a skeet gun, but it's not to be discounted either.

I don't mind long barrel length because it's free velocity - at the expense of increased clumsiness in matches. It definitely slows me down on props where the barrel has to be poked through and pulled out of "windows" of some sort. No problem because I'm so slow that a few extra seconds don't matter.

Get a brake. It's not about recoil per se in a heavy 6.5CM, although it is there. It's about spotting your rounds. I don't have a brake on my .223 (which will change when new build is complete), and the muzzle flips enough to make spotting impacts "harder" than with the braked 6.5CM. Proper recoil management (which grows out of gun mount and positioning) is paramount in enabling you to see where your rounds land, but a brake helps significantly.

Don't rule out competition. I came into rifle via the same path as you. I shot NSSA skeet, mainly in NC, for many years. I made it to AAA in all four guns and learned that a AAA classification only gets you kicked to the curb by the people who are REALLY good. I burned out. After I retired, I found rifle to be a fascinating alternative. But I crave the competitive environment so I shoot matches. If I finish above the 50th percentile, it's a decent day. Unlike skeet, every match has a different target presentation, which is also a draw to me.

Finally, check out the Snipers Hide Online Training, found about 1/3 of the way down the list of forums. There's a monthly subscription fee (sign up by clicking on your username in the upper right of the browser window, then click Account Upgrades) but it's cheap and you can quit any time you want. It's a great source of info for the newbie.

Enjoy the ride. It's a different beast than skeet, a whole new level of addiction!

 

[Baron23]

@DownhillFromHere - thank you so much for your thoughtful reply.

Balance is not as important in a heavy rifle as in a skeet gun, but it's not to be discounted either.

If I can bother you again, exactly what would be your view of proper for balancing a rifle like this...slightly muzzle heavy or something else?

Thanks for pointing me to Online Training. I had noticed that feature of the board and will certainly consider that recommendation.

NSSA shooter from NC? Wow, I wonder if I know you. I shot out of National Capital (home of the NorthSouth shoot) until they closed us then I ran the NS for four years out of PG Trap and Skeet. We had a number of shooters from south of us come, Kirkman, Wueford, I can't even remember the names any more but some great shooters came out of your neck of the woods. And, for while I would go to the Masters at Forest City just to feed the flying all-jaws! haha

Never was AAA across the board, the peak of my miserable skeet record was AAA in the two large guns.

Anyway, this is I guess off topic but I do thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and experience.

Cheers

 

[DownhillFromHere]

what would be your view of proper for balancing a rifle like this...slightly muzzle heavy or something else

Yes, slightly muzzle heavy. I think that's a fairly consistent opinion, in a sport where people can argue about a 0.2" scope height difference. In my case, the overall mass of the rifle - of which the bias toward muzzle-heavy is one factor - is such that an overall weight reduction looks attractive. I may change my mind after running a lighter barrel. I've changed my mind quite a few times since I started this silliness.

I never shot National Capital. But I shot many many times with Kirkman and the rest of the Liberty Mafia. There used to be a little one-hole field south of Graham that would do little one-gun shoots every month they would all go to. A good crowd was 15 shooters. At least ten of them would be AA or AAA. Shoot a 99 in the big guns and sit by the grill with the rest of the losers.

Yes, I remember shooting an 8am flight at the Masters. A shaft of early-morning sun was beaming through a slot in the field-separating wall. In that bright beam was a literal cloud of the flying jaws, who drank bug repellant like soldiers drink beer. The only thing that would slow 'em down was a thick coating of Skin-So-Soft. Bunch of sweaty skeet shooters smelling like ladies fair.

 

[Baron23]

Yes, slightly muzzle heavy. I think that's a fairly consistent opinion, in a sport where people can argue about a 0.2" scope height difference.

hahaha....that's too funny but I do understand. But this gives me a starting place and I believe for this gun I'm initially going to go for either an M24 or H Palma at 24". I think that with this heavy chassis that this may be just about right as a start.

I may change my mind after running a lighter barrel. I've changed my mind quite a few times since I started this silliness.

Oh, I'm sure that will be me also...but, I got to start somewhere. And I don't want to sound cavalier about $$, I'm ok but not rich, but compared to the cost of say K80 barrels, even top of the line rifles barrels are relatively inexpensive.

Get a brake.

Robert suggested a bolt on, self-timing brake of some sort (haven't seen exactly what he's talking about yet) and I will probably try that. At a min, the muzzle will be threaded and capped.

And yes, some REALLY great, great shooters out of NC. Nice people too. I'm trying to remember this one fella's name...not Rocky but like that, I think....who used to shoot with those guys. A real character. I think last I have seen them, however, was the Masters at Ft Bragg...which was what...12 years ago??

And Mrs. Kirkman (Craig's Mom)... what a nice lady but also a bit humorous. She would call to squad them in the NS and I bet you if I didn't get a dozen "bless you" from her I didn't get one. I would get off of the phone and feel right with my maker for a week after all those blessings! haha

As for Skin-So-Soft....dunno, on me it was just like BBQ sauce for them little all-jaws! haha

I remember watch Mr. Hulgan shoot off on Sat night as the flesh was stripped from my body. LOL Just watching him shoot made my knees hurt (his deep squat stance, that is).

Ok, this isn't a skeet board and I'll cut this out now.

Thank you again, stay safe, and may you and yours stay healthy

 

[moosemeat]

There is so much preference that goes into choosing barrel contour and length that you will get some differnt answers. The PRS guys lean toward palma contours to a degree. Us stationary shooter lean toward m24/40/MTU. Do you like how the remmy balances? If so remember that with a chassis 4 pounds heavier you will want more weight up front to make it feel the same.
Aesthetically that chassis begs for a MTU to me, 24" and a brake.
I personally like a rifle to balance within a few inches in front of the mag well. I dont do PRS either do to chronic lung issues.

 

[Baron23]

There is so much preference that goes into choosing barrel contour and length that you will get some different answers.

Thank you for your reply and yes, that has become apparent from my reading of other threads on this subject! People's preferences do seem to have a wide range, to say the least. haha

But I am getting a better feel for it and I do very much appreciate people's input.

Right now, I'm thinking M24 or H Palma at 24" and I need to just make a decision, try it out, then go from there.

If I may ask another question, looking at Krieger's data, if I cut an M24 or H Palma to 24", they will have almost identical muzzle diameters with the difference being perhaps where the point of balance will be...that is, it appears to me that looking at Krieger's drwgs that the H Palma at this length may have a bit more weight forward that the M24 or am I wrong?

Thank you, once again. Stay safe and I hope you and yours stay healthy.

Cheers

 

[Steel head]

There is so much preference that goes into choosing barrel contour and length that you will get some differnt answers. The PRS guys lean toward palma contours to a degree. Us stationary shooter lean toward m24/40/MTU.

I think that’s a bit backwards.
I find PRS shooters run heavier contours than people like me who mostly shoot prone with some stump and high angle positions.
My heaviest rifle with a heavy Palma in 7 saum is quite a bit lighter than the average PRS rifle shooting wondersix.
My 260 is half the weight of some PRS rifles.
Both balance directly in from of the magazine.

 

[Steel head]

It appears to me that looking at Krieger's drwgs that the H Palma at this length may have a bit more weight forward that the M24 or am I wrong?

M24 has a fair bit more meat in the middle of the barrel.
At equal lengths the H Palma will be lighter than the M24.
My 28” H Palma is under 6 pounds.

 

[Baron23]

@Steel head - thank you for taking the time to reply.

Looking at different manf, it seems that there are some differences between makers for a given barrel contour. Krieger says that their H Palma finished at 30" is 6.5 lbs. So, I'm guessing that at 28" a H Palma from them will not go below 6 lbs.

I think I'm over thinking this at this point and just need to pull the trigger on either M24 or H Palma. I will talk to Robert and Richard again, see if we can just agree on a choice, then go for it.

I'm screwing myself into the ground with this at this point.

Thank you again for your reply.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

hahaha....that's too funny but I do understand. But this gives me a starting place and I believe for this gun I'm initially going to go for either an M24 or H Palma at 24". I think that with this heavy chassis that this may be just about right as a start.


Oh, I'm sure that will be me also...but, I got to start somewhere. And I don't want to sound cavalier about $$, I'm ok but not rich, but compared to the cost of say K80 barrels, even top of the line rifles barrels are relatively inexpensive.


Robert suggested a bolt on, self-timing brake of some sort (haven't seen exactly what he's talking about yet) and I will probably try that. At a min, the muzzle will be threaded and capped.

And yes, some REALLY great, great shooters out of NC. Nice people too. I'm trying to remember this one fella's name...not Rocky but like that, I think....who used to shoot with those guys. A real character. I think last I have seen them, however, was the Masters at Ft Bragg...which was what...12 years ago??

And Mrs. Kirkman (Craig's Mom)... what a nice lady but also a bit humorous. She would call to squad them in the NS and I bet you if I didn't get a dozen "bless you" from her I didn't get one. I would get off of the phone and feel right with my maker for a week after all those blessings! haha

As for Skin-So-Soft....dunno, on me it was just like BBQ sauce for them little all-jaws! haha

I remember watch Mr. Hulgan shoot off on Sat night as the flesh was stripped from my body. LOL Just watching him shoot made my knees hurt (his deep squat stance, that is).

Ok, this isn't a skeet board and I'll cut this out now.

Thank you again, stay safe, and may you and yours stay healthy

Yes, you have to start someplace. And, honestly, you're overthinking the barrel contour. Starting with an M24 is a fine thing to do, based on your description of other build components and what you intend to do. Stop obsessing about it, truly. It's like a brand-new skeet shooter asking for opinion on whether a tapered or straight rib is "better." It's what YOU like and you're not going to know that until you live with it. Unlike ribs on a barrel set, though, rifle barrels are consumables and, as you point out, dirt cheap compared to Kolar/Kreighoff barrels which live Forever. Even if you dislike the M24 so badly that you can't live with it - which I doubt will happen - you replace it and keep the M24 as a spare.

Wrt brakes: "self-timing" means it has a lock nut or somesuch to lock the thing in correct position, with the ports to the side. Lacking this capability, the smith who cuts your barrel has to stop the threads in just the right place for the brake's ports to be properly aligned. No biggie. But, if at some point you use pre-fit barrels, for example, you know your brake is going to work with it.

If you're obsessing about barrel contour, you won't sleep for a week when you go down the optic rabbit hole. My advice:

• Do not cheap out on the scope or the rings. I'm sure Mr. Gradous will have opinions and options - listen to him. From my perspective, given the components on your list, starting with a Vortex Razor 4.5-27x56 with EBR-7C reticle in MRAD is a safe bet, like buying a nicely-optioned Toyota Camry as a daily driver. If you like it, yippee. If you don't, resale on them is fast and decent. Trust me, if you understand the difference between, say, a K-80 and a Browning Citori, you'll quickly find that inexpensive scopes are on par with maybe a Stoeger, the mid-tier (~$750-1000) scopes are in the Browning/Beretta tier, etc. When you get into the $3,000 and up range, you're in the Krieghoff/Kolar tier. You can't go wrong with one, but you can get a very good [skeet gun | optic] for less.
• For Vortex optics, it's really hard to beat Liberty Optics, one of the SH sponsor vendors. Scott is great to deal with. I learned today that you can see his pricing by putting an item in the cart on the web site.
• For other brands, check out CameralandNY, another SH sponsor vendor. Call @gr8fuldoug with questions or for advice. It's worth your while. (Note: if you deal with SH vendors and get excited about pricing, keep it to yourself, because MAP (Minimum Advertised Pricing) rules are in play. Search for threads and read more about all that on SH.
• I can't speak to what's available from other SH vendors. I've dealt with both Scott and Doug.

You'll also quickly discover the need for a decent bipod and a rear bag. While seemingly expensive, an Atlas CAL is a great buy-it-and-be-done option. You can spend a lot more. Or less. There are many threads here about bipods. I don't know if your chassis has an ARCA rail on it; if it does, the Atlas BT65-NC bipod fitted with an RRS ARCA/pic rail adapter is awesome.

I've collected about half a dozen bags of various sizes over the last couple years, both buying and picking up off prize tables. If I could keep only one, it would be my full-size GameChanger. And I wouldn't be losing all that much because the other bags have fairly specialized uses. The GameChanger gets used every time I shoot - Every Time.

Yep, I remember Rocky B. too. And I shot at Bragg the year it opened - in fact, the guy who was responsible for a lots of its construction was one of my favorite guys to shoot with. RIP Wade H. He's been gone awhile. I actually learned the game at the little 2-hole field at McKellars Lodge not far from the main post parade field back in the late '60s. If you remember the Kirkman crowd, you probably also remember T. Downing, the godfather of NC skeet. He was already a champion when I started. I haven't seen him in awhile, but he was in his 80s and still an AA shooter when I last ref'ed the NC closed shoot a couple years ago. Did you know that one of the main reasons the "new" Ft Bragg Clay Target Center was constructed off-post was because of the requirement (at least back then) that firearms being brought on post had to be registered with the provost marshal's office? Mr. Downing and every other skeet shooter "in the know" about that planning said neither they nor anyone else they knew would set foot onto a facility where registration was required. Of course, 9/11 happened later and Ft. Bragg became a closed post. Lots of history.

 

[Steel head]

Every inch is 2.5 -4 ounces.so once you include cutting the tenons on both ends like mine has a 28” H Palma could easily be sub 6lbs.

since your gonna run a JAE is do a search on them and see what others are running in them for profiles and length.

My only experience with JAE is in their M14 chassis and I know it’s a pig.
with a skinny 22” barrel that rifle weighs the same as my 28’ barreled rifle

 

[Baron23]

Stop obsessing about it, truly. It's like a brand-new skeet shooter asking for opinion on whether a tapered or straight rib is "better."

I know, I know....and I really, really do know that this really like "tapered or straight ribs". I agree...I'm over thinking it by a long ways.

I do understand self-timing to a degree and plan to go with that at least for now. On my 5R, its a gunsmith timed brake which is just fine on that gun. On this one, I think to start with a self-timing one is the smart way to go for this gun at this time.

Do not cheap out on the scope or the rings.

Absolutely. Actually, this was advise I was given first by just about everybody when I bought the 5R. For that gun, I put a 3-15 x 44 Viper PST Gen II Mil-Rad in Leupold Mark IV steel rings on a Badger rail. For a deer gun, I think this was a good choice.

And I was indeed thinking about Razors....Robert mentioned he is a Nightforce dealer so I have to consider that also. I have time to think (obsess! haha) about scope and mounting options.

I book marked Liberty and already had Camera Land NY book marked from a prior recommendation. Thank you.

You'll also quickly discover the need for a decent bipod and a rear bag.

I do have bags...Bull Bags and Weibad. For the 5R I have a Harris S model. I have seen the Atlas. No, my chass does not have the ARCA rail....has 2" picatinny at the bottom front. I'm guessing that all bipod manf make adapters for different rails so I can put an Atlas on the picatinny.

As for ARCA, I have seen pics of JAE-700 with a long ARCA rail that extends 2" in front of the fore end. I believe that these were supplied by J Allen as an option on the chassis when ordered.

Do you know, can I just bolt on any ARCA to the flush mounting rail on these JAE? Not something that needs to be answered today, but I'm just curious. Allen called it a "flush Euro Style Rail" but I can't find that this equates to any sort of standard mounting so I could look into compatibility.

There seems to be a number of different mechanical mounting interfaces in rifles and is a bit confusing of a subject. A subject for another day, perhaps.

So, I was right...he was "Rocky". I kind of thought so. I know of Mr Downing...most skeet shooters in this region have at least heard of him...but I don't know him. And I do remember the story about registering firearms to get on the base and the uproar over that.

Thank you again for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it and wow....been a bit of a stroll down skeet memory lane! haha

Every inch is 2.5 -4 ounces.so once you include cutting the tenons on both ends like mine has a 28” H Palma could easily be sub 6lbs.

Ah, I was struggling a bit to figure out weight change by the inch on these profiles. Thank you.

since your gonna run a JAE is do a search on them and see what others are running in them for profiles and length.

I will continue to do that....I have searched and examined images but its often hard to tell what the barrel is. Lot of them seem to be...well, M24 or H Palma. haha

But the advise I have gotten that at this point I'm just over thinking it is well received by me and now I will get on the phone with Robert and just...frakin...pick one! haha

Thanks for the reply. Great forum, lots of info, and I've just skimmed the surface so far. Lot of good reading for coronavirus lock down time.

Cheers

 

[Baron23]

@DownhillFromHere @Steelhead - I may bother you gents again.....can you identify the contour in this pic from a for sale advert. I'm thinking its a H Palma and guessing 26".

Opinions?

 

[Supersubes]

I’m not them but that’s definitely a Palma. Probably heavy. Only a .020” difference between them from memory.

 

[Baron23]

I’m not them but that’s definitely a Palma. Probably heavy. Only a .020” difference between them from memory.

hahaha...thanks, man. Sorry, didn't mean to leave you out (LOL) but I do really appreciate your help in this thread. Cheers

 

[Supersubes]

I misspoke about the differences, it’s .080. Therefore I have the perfect solution. The “marksman” contour was all the rage a while back, and it splits them perfectly.

 

[kthomas]

I've found 24" to be the "sweet spot" for velocity and balance with the 6.5 creedmoor.

Barrel contours are personal preference. I like heavier contours, and lightest I would go these days is a heavy palma. My current 24" 6.5 creedmoor barrel is an MTU, which is definitely on the stout side (which I like). I would also consider a heavy varmint.

My 6.5 creedmoor also happens to sit in a JAE-700 (excellent choice btw), and with that 24" MTU barrel it balances right around the mag point.

 

[kthomas]

I misspoke about the differences, it’s .080. Therefore I have the perfect solution. The “marksman” contour was all the rage a while back, and it splits them perfectly.

As someone who's once had the Marksman profile, I've found it to be a bit light, making the rifle rear heavy.

I think a heavy palma would balance better for the OP's setup.

 

[Steel head]

I’m not them but that’s definitely a Palma. Probably heavy. Only a .020” difference between them from memory.

Yea
Definitely a Palma
From the diameter difference to brake almost for sure a heavy Palma.
That’s a sexy as F**K rifle.

 

[Steel head]

I've found 24" to be the "sweet spot" for velocity and balance with the 6.5 creedmoor.

Barrel contours are personal preference. I like heavier contours, and lightest I would go these days is a heavy palma. My current 24" 6.5 creedmoor barrel is an MTU, which is definitely on the stout side (which I like). I would also consider a heavy varmint.

My 6.5 creedmoor also happens to sit in a JAE-700 (excellent choice btw), and with that 24" MTU barrel it balances right around the mag point.

Not sure if true but I’ve read from a few known builders that 24” is the happy place for 6.5CM factory ammunition.

 

[1moaoff]

Just let robert build it with whatever he wants.
Seriously just let him put what he thinks is right for you!!!!

 

[kthomas]

Just let robert build it with whatever he wants.
Seriously just let him put what he thinks is right for you!!!!

I would certainly trust him over most to steer his customers in the right direction.

 

[Supersubes]

I think I’d prefer a further back CG given a choice. Just doesn’t seem to hurt anything. My desert tech balances way way back regardless of contour, and that gun rarely shoots a bad group. Years before that though I mostly used rem varmint and standard Palma. I have a marksman too, and it looks/feels like a standard Palma to me. Also have a 27” heavy Palma 6cm at the moment, and it’s much heavier feeling than the standard/Marksman. I think it weighs 19lbs. If that gun wasn’t a test bed of sorts, I’d hack 6” off the muzzle.

 

[Baron23]

I misspoke about the differences, it’s .080.

Indeed it is! haha....in my OP I do have a table with Krieger's dimensions for barrels I was considering. If you look to the right hand colums you can see that I calculated muzzle diameter based on rate of taper and if I cut down a 30" finished Krieger standard palma it ends up looking VERY much like Krieger's Remington Varmint.

My smith, Robert, likes Kriegers and I'm going with him on this and it doesn't seem like they make a Marksman contour (well, not as standard...they will make custom for $$, of course).

I see this is kind of Hawk Hill's contour and Bartlein also.

Thanks for the follow up!!

 

[moosemeat]

I think that’s a bit backwards.
I find PRS shooters run heavier contours than people like me who mostly shoot prone with some stump and high angle positions.
My heaviest rifle with a heavy Palma in 7 saum is quite a bit lighter than the average PRS rifle shooting wondersix.
My 260 is half the weight of some PRS rifles.
Both balance directly in from of the magazine.

You are correct. I just remembered a couple years ago seemed like every PRS rig I saw was wearing a LP, HP or marksman contour of some sort. I dont do PRS but have friends who do and all I can think of of the top of my head run a palma type contour or remington sendero contour. Then they bolt 5 pounds of weight to the gun....

 

[Steelhead]

@DownhillFromHere @Steelhead - I may bother you gents again.....can you identify the contour in this pic from a for sale advert. I'm thinking its a H Palma and guessing 26".

Opinions?

Looks like Palma to me too.

(But I think you meant to @ Steel head and not me Steelhead)

 

[Supersubes]

Indeed it is! haha....in my OP I do have a table with Krieger's dimensions for barrels I was considering. If you look to the right hand colums you can see that I calculated muzzle diameter based on rate of taper and if I cut down a 30" finished Krieger standard palma it ends up looking VERY much like Krieger's Remington Varmint.

My smith, Robert, likes Kriegers and I'm going with him on this and it doesn't seem like they make a Marksman contour (well, not as standard...they will make custom for $$, of course).

I see this is kind of Hawk Hill's contour and Bartlein also.

Thanks for the follow up!!

Unless there’s something odd about a custom taper you may want, it won’t cost you anything. I order several per month from Krieger.

As I said in my first post, this is all hair splitting.

 

[Baron23]

@kthomas - thank you so much for taking the time to reply and help me out. I appreciate the solid data, particularly since you are running in the same chassis.

@Steel head - I took a chance and PM'd the guy who had that gun up for sale (then pulled it as I guess he changed his mind). He confirmed that its a H Palma in 26" . Again, thank you for your reply...and it is sexy as f**k, ain't it?

@1moaoff - indeed you are right and I just got off of the phone with them right before seeing your post. Right now, we are going with H Palma and we are going to leave it at 26" as 2" can be cut off later, but its hell trying to grow it back again! LOL But, I have time to revisit this. The gun pictured above is 26". If I ever wanted to suppress it, it would look like an anti-aircraft gun! LOL So, right now 26" but may just go to 24" right off. Either way, I'll be fine.

I think you meant to @ Steel head and not me Steelhead

hahaha...well, got two for the price of one as you have both been kind enough to reply to me. Thanks!!

Unless there’s something odd about a custom taper you may want, it won’t cost you anything

Ah, didn't know that. Thanks.

As I said in my first post, this is all hair splitting.

Yep, and I've kind of finally arrived at that conclusion! Hey, I rode the small bus to school...I'm little slow, ok!

You guys have been great and obviously represent a great deal of experience. As my good friend, Wheeler Johnson, is wont to say "Experience, you can't buy it, but you will definitely pay for it" so thanks for letting me piggyback on your hard won experience.

Cheers

 

[LeftyJason]

Welcome. It was a little long but well described of what you want. Longer is better than way too short with no information. And you used paragraphs which is greatly appreciated as well.

Visually alot of the contours look very similar to me. Can't go wrong as long as you stay away from the super light hunting or truck axle barrels. Robert won't steer you wrong from what I've seen. He seems like great person to me.

 

[Baron23]

@LeftyJason - thanks! and....hahaha...I too am a fan of paragraphs and tend to skip over a solid block of text....I mean, even phones have a carriage return on the keyboard!

I too think I'm in good hands. I appreciate the reply.

 

[Baron23]

So, good bit of water has gone under the bridge since my opening post and I thought to just update the thread as so many of you were kind enough to share your experience and give me a steer.

Made a bit of progress with the Rem 700 5R. Mainly, put a Jewel trigger in it, had a KMW Loggerhead installed for an adjustable cheek piece (sorry, but it is REALLY a comb...talk to any stock smith ), but since the action was out of the stock, we took the opportunity to skim bed it. It was easy to see that the action was only touching the bedding block in this HS stock in two very small areas right at the action screws.

The bedding seemed to really tighten the gun up...in my limited opinion.

As for the Gradous gun that was the cause for me starting this thread in the first place, I'm sure many of us know the tragedy that struck the Gradous family. I don't want to go on about this much as I don't want to seem to claim a close relationship with Robert. That wouldn't be true. But we did talk on a number of occasions and he was such an incredibly honest, open, and humble guy that its easy to feel you have known him for years. He shared a lot of his current situation with me and I told him about my past similar situations. All in all, I found his passing to be incredibly sad still to this day.

In looking for a J Allen 700 chassis I ended up finding a completed gun within driving distance. 21 rounds through (barrel break in only) in pristine condition.

It is:

JAE-700, Gen 2, w 2" ARCA
Seekins Havak
TT Diamond trigger
Proof Research SS MTU finished at 25" spun by Paradigm Gunworks in Tulsa
Piersons Precision "Muscle" self-timing brake
ARC rings (and I LOVE these suckers and am hard pressed to find a reason to ever buy a different brand for rings)
Leupold MK V 5-25 x 56 with CCH reticle (not illuminated but hey, can't have everything)
Atlas BT-10 with Area 419 ARCA adapter (with pins removed)
Custom laser cut hard case

If I was building the gun from scratch, I'm not sure I would necessarily go with MTU or Seekins for the action, but its still a top shelf custom gun, the gun shoots great (way better than I do) and I got a very good price on it.

Also, the guy I bought it from loves "loud" (that's his way of describing it). The lime green furniture is his preference. Me...well, its grown on me but if he comes up with black furniture, we will trade.

Pics

I want to thank everybody who responded to my cry for help in the opening post and took the time to reply. In particular very grateful for the help from: @Supersubes , @Steel head , @Vargmat , @DownhillFromHere , @moosemeat , @kthomas , @LeftyJason and anybody I missed LOL

Cheers

 

[Steel head]

Awesome rifle but a bit loud for my taste.
Not horrible though.
JAE’s are really comfy to get behind.

 

[Baron23]

Awesome rifle but a bit loud for my taste.
Not horrible though.
JAE’s are really comfy to get behind.

haha..yeah, its loud. This fella also loves the bright yellow that they offered....I believe he has it on a black JAE. Different folks is why they make different colors....well, since Henry Ford said that they could have it in any color they want, as long as its black! haha

 

[chevy_man]

Holy crap, I thought I was long winded. Any of those barrels will do exactly what you want. Have one of your kids point to one on the screen, done. Your length considerations are fine

He solved it for you right away.


Know the great thing about shooting? It wears out the barrel so you can try a new one!


Congrats on the find. That should be a solid setup. And the best part is once you get those .1" groups nobody will care at all what it looks like.