Barrel damage likelihood from titanium powder?

[flysolo]

Looking for some insight. If someone were to “theoretically” fire 13 rounds of .338 lapua through an MRAD barrel that had unknowingly become fouled with a significant amount (think a teaspoon or more, deposited/recirculated throughout the string of fire) of what I’m assuming is titanium powder, how much damage would be done?
Thanks in advance.
Borescope’s in the mail….

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

@Frank Green

 

[supercorndogs]

If you didn't look at it before there is no way of knowing. A teaspoon is a lot.

I would think the damage would be between unnoticeable to very noticeable.

Forget the scope, how's it shoot? Clean it first.

 

[flysolo]

If you didn't look at it before there is no way of knowing. A teaspoon is a lot.

I would think the damage would be between unnoticeable to very noticeable.

Forget the scope, how's it shoot? Clean it first.

Cleaning and loading as we speak.

 

[Evintos]

Good ol' CGS titanium DMLS powder.

 

[oldrifleman]

How was the powder introduced? if it was from a suppressor issue I would expect it to be expelled or retained in the can. The back pressure should have pushed it out the front.

 

[flysolo]

How was the powder introduced? if it was from a suppressor issue I would expect it to be expelled or retained in the can. The back pressure should have pushed it out the front.

Suppressor issue, brand new, no damage to the can, alignment was confirmed.
I would have thought the same.

 

[Frank Green]

@Frank Green

Titanium rifle powder?

 

[oldrifleman]

Based on the above the titanium powder most likely came out of a brand new Suppressor that uses Sintered titanium for the baffles.

 

[flysolo]

Titanium rifle powder?

DMLS powder from a new silencer

 

[AnimalMother224]

your just assuming its titanium powder? the only way thats coming from the whisper pickle into the bore is if you muzzled up the rifle, a lot before firing.

 

[CobraCharmer]

DMLS powder from a new silencerView attachment 8327289

How did it back flow into your barrel? I am new to this sort of fouling, shouldn't the debris blow out the muzzle end by design?

 

[Kadams1563]

How did it back flow into your barrel? I am new to this sort of fouling, shouldn't the debris blow out the muzzle end by design?

Carried it muzzle up.

Same thing happens with rimfire cans.

 

[flysolo]

At the moment I’m not trying to put anyone on blast. I’m not a physicist so I can’t answer the how it got there, but it did. Here’s how my range day went Wednesday:

Picked up two new cans from my dealer Tuesday. They are the same design (direct thread DMLS titanium), from the same manufacturer. One is a 30 cal and the other is .338.
Wednesday I took them out. Both hosts were clean. Alignment was checked with alignment rods. .338 can was mounted on my mrad, I fired 13 rounds. My groups were opening up so I took a break to try the .30 cal can. I fired 5 rounds through my Spear LT in 300blk and it malfunctioned (on video) cleared the weapon, found the action, chamber, barrel and ammo to be covered in a metallic sand like material (have some in a bag now)
Went back over to the mrad and found it in the same condition. Packed my shit, went home, cleaned everything. At home I dumped more of this material out of both cans. I’ve got pics of everything along the way.
Customer service has been contacted and I haven’t got a reply yet.

I was pretty worked up when I posted initially. Those are the circumstances, my question is the same, anyone been there and how much damage did it do?
I’ll be able to shoot again this weekend hopefully and I can report back.
The rifle was a shooter, hope it still is.

 

[Huskydriver]

Who's cans?

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

that is and incredible amount and I personally find it impossible that it DIDNT coitus up the barrels to some degree. 13 rounds doesnt seem like a lot but with that much powder thats a lot of abrasive being ground into the steel.

I'd maybe try shooting it once all cleaned out to see if it shoots better but I'd be working hard to make the suppressor manufacturer replace both barrels and the AR bolt.

 

[Evintos]

How did it back flow into your barrel? I am new to this sort of fouling, shouldn't the debris blow out the muzzle end by design?

Redirected gas flow from baffles causing back pressure. Most people commonly think of suppressors and back pressure as a semi-auto issue only. With gas operated semi-autos, the issue is both back pressure and early unlocking/timing due to the pressure vessels (barrel and suppressor) staying pressurized longer (longer dwell time). With bolt action, back pressure causes bolt thrust and some other stuff. Depending on how well your case seals in the chamber, one common sign of increased fouling with suppressors and bolt actions is dirty case necks/shoulders. Fractions of a second of back flow at higher pressure than atmospheric pressure is all it takes.

 

[Krob95]

Who's cans?

Someone suggested it was CGS

 

[Terry Cross]

I was pretty worked up when I posted initially.

You should have been!

Even one round fired over that material in the bore is going to do damage.
Each deposit of powder back into the bore would settle at the 6 o'clock position in the bore before each succeeding shot was fired. With several rounds fired before you figured it out, I would expect that you will see more damage on the bottom hemisphere surfaces of the bore rather than evenly distributed.

Regardless, you have every right to be quite upset.

.

 

[carbonbased]

Is that sintered powder from a “dissolved” baffle? Or just a ton of powder that was stuck on the interior of the can that shook loose after the first (or third, whatever) shot?

That’s pretty crazy and embarrassing for the manufacturer.

 

[iceng]

You've heard of fire lapping bullets ? Well new we have fire lappings cans !!

Its a feature, not a defect.

(Actually no, thats horrible. Be annoyed).

 

[Evintos]

Is that sintered powder from a “dissolved” baffle? Or just a ton of powder that was stuck on the interior of the canon that shook loose after the first (or third, whatever) shot?

That’s pretty crazy and embarrassing for the manufacturer.

It's specifically leftover titanium powder that gets trapped in the baffle recesses or didn't get purged after the DMLS process. The issue has been so common lately and combined with the sheer amount of leftover titanium powder (compared to products produced 1 or 2 years ago) is leading people to believe that CGS has stopped the post print purging process.

CGS basically tells customers to shoot it out of the can with supersonic ammo and that you'll know it's completely out when the can stop throwing titanium sparks out the front end. Unacceptable in my opinion.

For folks that are curious, just Google "CGS titanium powder," "CGS titanium dust," "CGS debris". Most of the experiences will be on Reddit, where the vocal users used to be hardcore CGS fans.

 

[flysolo]

Is that sintered powder from a “dissolved” baffle?

There’s no visible damage. Looks to me like material was freed up after firing. I handled both of them quite a bit leading up to shooting them and nothing fell out or rattled around.

 

[carbonbased]

There’s no visible damage. Looks to me like material was freed up after firing. I handled both of them quite a bit leading up to shooting them and nothing fell out or rattled around.

Huh. Wonder if they missed a cleaning step after, ah, printing? if that’s the right word. Sounds weird to say lol. Edit: didn’t see @Evintos explanation above.

I have seen 3D printed cans spark when fired new. I think I’ve read somewhere that it was normal and it stops after some number of rounds (can’t remember the number). Obviously nothing like the titanium glitter pouring out of your can.

Goto about 18:00 here to see some sparks out of a Huxwrx:


I’m going to be a bit paranoid now when I get my 3D printed can, although it’s from Surefire.

You can see some stuff burning in the RC3 vid after 100 rds full-auto:

 

[carbonbased]

Oh yeah, when you get your borescope, put it through the suppressor too for kicks. Interesting to see what is in there and if anything is missing.

 

[flysolo]

For folks that are curious, just Google "CGS titanium powder," "CGS titanium dust," "CGS debris". Most of the experiences will be on Reddit, where the vocal users used to be hardcore CGS fans.

I looked around and found those threads. Known issue…
So yeah. CGS Hyperion and Hekate.
Pretty disgusting.

 

[flysolo]

You have an rc3? How do you like it?!
*edit I see now that it’s still in jail

 

[carbonbased]

You have an rc3? How do you like it?!

It’s in jail. Ordered it the day it was announced. Currently it’s at my dealer. I suppose maybe it’ll get out of jail next summer if I’m lucky?

 

[J. W.]

So I’m guessing it’d be wise for someone who orders one of these 3D printed cans to blow air through it with a compressor or something before using it, just to be on the safe side? Or maybe run it through an ultrasonic? Sounds like something they should take care of at the manufacturer to me.

 

[Evintos]

You can do air compressor blast to blow out the loose powder. Be careful though, you don't want to breathe titanium dust without a respirator and suitable particulate filter.

If the can has a removable front end cap and/or mount (HUB/Bravo, Charlie, etc) remove end cap and mount before flushing. Flush with a lot of water. Dunk in a bucket of water and shake it violently back and forth. The goal is to dislodge any compacted DMLS powder. Flush again.

Orient the suppressor under water so gravity assists you in pulling the particles (whether it's inconel or titanium powder) out of the suppressor Since most baffles are basically a type of funnel shape, it would be end cap side up.

 

[Lost_Phil]

When cleaning your rifle out and the can, make sure you are not using any cleaners that have chlorine in them, as it will eat the titanium can and the particles in the rifle. I would also ware a face mask when blowing any of the dust out of both of them since titanium powder is toxic.

 

[Frank Green]

DMLS powder from a new silencerView attachment 8327289

That's coming out of the can? That's what I thought you were saying in the original post but I wasn't sure and wanted it clarified and might have sounded silly in the way I asked it....LOL!

If so when the bullet leaves the barrel it does create a vacuum per se and does suck outside air/debris back into the bore of the barrel. A suppressor in my opinion won't stop this effect but how much will it cause any issues I don't know.

I know on gas guns they say a can will effect barrel life by as much as 50% (Got that from the guys out of Socom) as it accelerates the wear at the gas port. Didn't have any numbers effect wise on a bolt gun.

A really good customer of ours who does a lot of gas gun work and they shoot mostly suppressed guns.... they told me/us at Quantico like 2 years ago doing a class that on average they see a reduction in barrel life by 18% on average.

 

[Frank Green]

Even on bolt guns.... ever wonder why when you open the bolt after firing you get smoke coming out of the action area.... again when the bullet leaves the barrel it creates a vacuum and sucks back in the outside air. Probably not as much as a gas gun but it happens.

If that titanium powder/material is being sucked back into the barrel... it can't be good no matter how you look at it.

 

[flysolo]

Thank you Frank. If it needs a new barrel, chances are it’ll be one of yours.

 

[Edds]

Even on bolt guns.... ever wonder why when you open the bolt after firing you get smoke coming out of the action area.... again when the bullet leaves the barrel it creates a vacuum and sucks back in the outside air. Probably not as much as a gas gun but it happens.

If that titanium powder/material is being sucked back into the barrel... it can't be good no matter how you look at it.

The barrel goes from thousands off lbs of pressure to a vacuum when the bullet exits? Is this confirmed by pressure test barrels?

 

[Frank Green]

The barrel goes from thousands off lbs of pressure to a vacuum when the bullet exits? Is this confirmed by pressure test barrels?

I've never seen a reverse type pressure data. The p&v barrels are not set up that way. On standard calibers like 308win and I'm going off of memory here but by the time the bullet exits the muzzle the pressure at the muzzle is down to like 7k psi and this is at 24".

Shorter length barrels and calibers like 338 Lapua or real high chamber pressures.... the shorter the barrel the higher the pressure is at the muzzle vs a longer length barrel.

 

[Ledzep]

We did some testing with a suppressor mfg and you can see some artifacts caused by suppressors with the right setup but from what I recall the resolution wasn't stellar. Whatever happens happens pretty quick. I don't think the system we have would register vacuum, I can ask the lab guys but I'm pretty sure the test ends below a threshold.

Eta: can't speak for sinter powder but we shot fire lapping bullets in a (retired) P&V barrel. Do not recommend ...

 

[Frank Green]

We did some testing with a suppressor mfg and you can see some artifacts caused by suppressors with the right setup but from what I recall the resolution wasn't stellar. Whatever happens happens pretty quick. I don't think the system we have would register vacuum, I can ask the lab guys but I'm pretty sure the test ends below a threshold.

Eta: can't speak for sinter powder but we shot fire lapping bullets in a (retired) P&V barrel. Do not recommend ...

I know we’ve made suppressor P&V test barrels for LC but don’t know what they were all testing. I know the test was because of a gun/suppressor manufacturer.

Yes…. No fire lapping! You’re on your own! LOL!

 

[carbonbased]

Well, when I get my printed RC3 , even though it isn’t made of titanium but of some SS variant, I think I’ll be shooting one, removing suppressor, send a patch or three down the pipe, attach suppressor, shoot, etc.

I guess the SF quick attach method will come in handy lol.

 

[carbonbased]

@flysolo whats the update on this? Borescope it yet?

 

[flysolo]

@flysolo whats the update on this? Borescope it yet?

No, tracking says Friday arrival on the borescope. Little hold up somewhere. I decided not to shoot either rifle until it shows up.
I did every reasonable thing I could come up with to flush the cans out. Yesterday I put the Hyperion on my .260 and fired a round without the end cap on. There was a little metal powder on the crown of the muzzle, enough that I didn’t fire another round. Ran a few patches through it, first one had just a few flecks in it.
No word from CS. I know shot show is going on.
Will definitely update when I have more info.

 

[supercorndogs]

Flush the can outs with hot water. Tap on them with a soft hammer to break stuff loose internally.

 

[MK20]

A ultrasonic cleaner would probably work better if you had one.

 

[TheOE800]

What happened here?

 

[carbonbased]

What happened here?

I too would like the updated story.

 

[carbonbased]

I hope this isn’t one of those, “Ok, sure, we’ll give you a new suppressor and replace your barrel. Just sign right here on the NDA line.”

 

[flysolo]

It turns out, I have no idea what I'm looking at with a borescope. Cool toy and all but yeah. The timing was also unfortunate as I was shooting up the last of my factory .338 ammo when this happened, and I have no intentions of buying anymore.

I took a guess and loaded up 30 rounds in new Lapua brass with 285eldm's and a grain under max load of Retumbo. That averaged just under an inch. I would assume I can bring that down where it belongs with load development, but I haven't had a chance to do that yet. That's why I haven't updated this post.

I did talk to customer service right after SHOT, I had a direct # from emails when I first bought the cans. That call was pretty neutral. They said that this was an issue they were aware of, that it was limited to a period of production and that they now take measures to prevent these from going out (cutting a number of cans in half out of each batch to check for debris). I asked for nothing and they offered nothing. They said to reach back out if I did have issues with the rifles.

The Hekate cleaned out fairly easily. The Hyperion on the other hand was packed with what must have been ounces of hardened material and it took a significant effort to remove it all.

No NDA for me. I'd rather inform the community than have a new barrel. It would be pretty tough for me to prove any degradation in accuracy anyway, I don't have any way to authenticate a base line prior to the damage.

I will get to load development soon hopefully.

 

[FNG1001]

It turns out, I have no idea what I'm looking at with a borescope. Cool toy and all but yeah. The timing was also unfortunate as I was shooting up the last of my factory .338 ammo when this happened, and I have no intentions of buying anymore.

I took a guess and loaded up 30 rounds in new Lapua brass with 285eldm's and a grain under max load of Retumbo. That averaged just under an inch. I would assume I can bring that down where it belongs with load development, but I haven't had a chance to do that yet. That's why I haven't updated this post.

I did talk to customer service right after SHOT, I had a direct # from emails when I first bought the cans. That call was pretty neutral. They said that this was an issue they were aware of, that it was limited to a period of production and that they now take measures to prevent these from going out (cutting a number of cans in half out of each batch to check for debris). I asked for nothing and they offered nothing. They said to reach back out if I did have issues with the rifles.

The Hekate cleaned out fairly easily. The Hyperion on the other hand was packed with what must have been ounces of hardened material and it took a significant effort to remove it all.

No NDA for me. I'd rather inform the community than have a new barrel. It would be pretty tough for me to prove any degradation in accuracy anyway, I don't have any way to authenticate a base line prior to the damage.

I will get to load development soon hopefully.

What year is this suppressor from? the ones ive seen (2022-) have been very good in terms of performance and quality control.

 

[flysolo]

Transferred to my dealer 12/22 and 5/23.
Sound suppression is great.

 

[carbonbased]

@flysolo any update on the can? How are things going?