Barrel length to velocity/sd lead and copper solids

[Geno C.]

Figured this is a good place to catalog the progress and information in the testing I’m working on. This is based on my copper solid bullets/load testing, but, figured while I’m at it, I’ll do conventional lead ammo as well. Starting with a 27” .217/.222 1-5.75 twist Bartlein barrel. Going to find a safe load with the copper bullets and run strictly speed testing. I going to chop off an inch at a time and see where the numbers take me. I also have a 23” barrel with the same specs and a 27” .219/.222 1-6.5 from K&P barrels. Plan is to only chop the long Bartlein first. If it’s found that a shorter barrel is better, I’ll possible chop the K&P to that length. Initially I’ll have numbers from the 27” for each though.
Did the 27” Bartlein last night. Hoping to working K&P tonight or tomorrow and start chopping this weekend

 

[1911JMB]

that is one heck of a project. You are loading rimfire as well??

 

[Klay23]

Subbed, curious how the inches will affect FPS

 

[Geno C.]

that is one heck of a project. You are loading rimfire as well??

Yes I’m loading the copper solids myself

 

[JBoomhauer]

I’ll be watching this.

How does the regular 40gr lead stuff shoot in that fast of a twist?

 

[Geno C.]

I’ll be watching this.

How does the regular 40gr lead stuff shoot in that fast of a twist?

Mind you, this is out of a 27” 217/222 barrel. I’ll be doing the 219 as well.

 

[Gleedus]

I'm doing the same process with a 26" IBI 1-16 only lead.

 

[JBoomhauer]

I am having a 10tw 26” being built now to prove out a few things.

Thanks for posting your findings.

 

[Rob01]

Looks like velocities down from a shorter barrel.

 

[Geno C.]

It is. My 23 was about 1080 with the Wolf last fall

 

[Rob01]

My 18” with center x is about 1090-1100fps depending on lot.

 

[Geno C.]

What brand barrel? Do you know the internal dimensions of it?

 

[Rob01]

Believe it’s an Ace as it came on my Vudoo. Not sure of inside dimensions. I know it’s a 16 twist though.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Believe it’s an Ace as it came on my Vudoo. Not sure of inside dimensions. I know it’s a 16 twist though.

Any idea on the SD? Geno on the 23”? Might as well ask, more data points might help a bit here.

 

[Rob01]

My Center X SDs are all single digit usually 5-7fps.

 

[lash]

I am quite interested in the findings you get. There’s been a lot of discussion in the past regarding optimal barrel length for .22 RF loads. Including a discussion regarding Anschutz barrels and the reasoning as to why their rifles typically had longer barrels.

I know that this is outside the scope of your experiment, but there’s more than a little belief that Anschutz determined that the loss of velocity was a small price to pay for improved accuracy/precision.

Still, a worthy experiment and I look forward to your results and data.

 

[JBoomhauer]

My Center X SDs are all single digit usually 5-7fps.

Very nice. Thanks

 

[JBoomhauer]

I am quite interested in the findings you get. There’s been a lot of discussion in the past regarding optimal barrel length for .22 RF loads. Including a discussion regarding Anschutz barrels and the reasoning as to why their rifles typically had longer barrels.

I know that this is outside the scope of your experiment, but there’s more than a little belief that Anschutz determined that the loss of velocity was a small price to pay for improved accuracy/precision.

Still, a worthy experiment and I look forward to your results and data.

That’s exactly the reason I am checking out the longer barreled stuff. There has to be a reason for it.

I also have a lathe and can make things shorter if long does not work. So it’s basically free to experiment with the longer stuff.

 

[Klay23]

I wonder if the longer time in the barrel tightens up the spin and stability??? Even though you lose FPS

 

[Geno C.]

Any idea on the SD? Geno on the 23”? Might as well ask, more data points might help a bit here.

5.3 that day

 

[Geno C.]

So, I have a hypothesis, the longer barrels will give a most consistent speed. I believe this could be because of a couple things; the total amount of friction needed to leave the bore is more but it also evens out the microscopic imperfections of the loose and tight spots and that sort of thing. This leads to the other part. I think the larger internal bore/chamber volume evens out the exit pressure because the decrease in pressure over the length of the barrel isn’t linear. So a 500psi chamber pressure variation might be 100psi at say 18” but but at 20” it might be 80psi then at 22” it could be 50psi and so on. Each inch increase will have a greater decrease in pressure than the last. Those numbers are random but it gets the point across.

 

[Gleedus]

Not sure if you follow IBI at all but Ryan did a bunch of twist testing and barrel length. He is putting together the results shortly.
His focus was a little different then ours because they have to look at from a selling to the general public.

 

[Geno C.]

And I assume he is testing lead factory ammo. That is secondary for me. I don’t really care about the lead. The amount of powder I’m using is more than standard lead. My weight is heavier and the bullets are harder but have a shorter bearing surface. All these things, no one has tested. Im
Only doing the lead because it’s there and it’s good info for people.

 

[Gleedus]

Yes that is all true. He also didnt focus on velocity the same way we would for ELR. They are more looking at what barrel length range has the biggest chance at making a happy customer on average. So I think it will be more of a for interests sake for me.

 

[Rimdenter]

I wonder if the longer time in the barrel tightens up the spin and stability??? Even though you lose FPS

No the longer a bullet stays in a continuous unchanging cycle does not aid in stability. 2 things do take place complete combustion and velocity stability. The greater the resistance the faster full combustion is reached.

 

[Rimdenter]

And I assume he is testing lead factory ammo. That is secondary for me. I don’t really care about the lead. The amount of powder I’m using is more than standard lead. My weight is heavier and the bullets are harder but have a shorter bearing surface. All these things, no one has tested. Im
Only doing the lead because it’s there and it’s good info for people.

Keep you some cleaning brushes handy for the lead on the fast ones.

 

[Rimdenter]

An

Yes that is all true. He also didnt focus on velocity the same way we would for ELR. They are more looking at what barrel length range has the biggest chance at making a happy customer on average. So I think it will be more of a for interests sake for me.

Any of the ARA guys shoot 18-22 " barrels?

 

[Rimdenter]

That’s exactly the reason I am checking out the longer barreled stuff. There has to be a reason for it.

I also have a lathe and can make things shorter if long does not work. So it’s basically free to experiment with the longer stuff.

Soon as my Bartlien gets in it will start life at a 28" . With integrated tuner , just for long range shooting.

 

[Gleedus]

An
Any of the ARA guys shoot 18-22 " barrels?

Not that I know.... but also not my thing.... that is one of the reasons I argue for going long. Maybe a 20" will shoot better on average out of the box for the average joe? but just maybe at 500 yds a tuned long pipe is better.....

 

[Rimdenter]

Not that I know.... but also not my thing.... that is one of the reasons I argue for going long. Maybe a 20" will shoot better on average out of the box for the average joe? but just maybe at 500 yds a tuned long pipe is better.....

You can take that to the bank! You ever see a mortar out shoot a tank !

 

[Klay23]

No the longer a bullet stays in a continuous unchanging cycle does not aid in stability. 2 things do take place complete combustion and velocity stability. The greater the resistance the faster full combustion is reached.

So you think it’s more of a FPS and a more consistent combustion with the longer barrel that makes the most difference? Hmmmm.

My only counter would be I shoot a good bit of 22lr and have SD’s in the single digits frequently with my 16.5” bull varmint barrel cz 457. Shorter difference doesn’t seem to affect that in that barrel. But I haven’t had a chance to check the FPS on the chrono with my Mtr varmint cz457. Hmmmm. I realize we are talking long barrels vs short, but what are you considering short? I always thought/read that 16” was a good number for 22lr. Curious about all this. I don’t know how long elite shooters barrels are though, but I bet that may give a hint. They didn’t pick that length on accident

 

[Gleedus]

So you think it’s more of a FPS and a more consistent combustion with the longer barrel that makes the most difference? Hmmmm.

My only counter would be I shoot a good bit of 22lr and have SD’s in the single digits frequently with my 16.5” bull varmint barrel cz 457. Shorter difference doesn’t seem to affect that in that barrel. But I haven’t had a chance to check the FPS on the chrono with my Mtr varmint cz457. Hmmmm. I realize we are talking long barrels vs short, but what are you considering short? I always thought/read that 16” was a good number for 22lr. Curious about all this. I don’t know how long elite shooters barrels are though, but I bet that may give a hint. They didn’t pick that length on accident

BR guys all run tuners and a longer barrel is easier to tune. Short stiffys not so much.
When most people talk optimum barrel length they think max velocity. In a bolt gun that is 20-21". Depending on ammo etc.
Another factor could be muzzle blast with longer barrels we have less blast so possibly less disruption starting out?

 

[Rimdenter]

The optimum barrel lenght is what obtains complete gas expansion within 1" or less of muzzle exit while imparting , gyroscopic stability to the desired profile and weight of projectile. Veloicty and stability are required to successfully impact a target at greater distances. Theres a give and take in any instance each and every shooter has to find their , best combination for what their trying to achieve repeatedly.

 

[grauhanen]

There is no fixed definition of optimum barrel length. It is inextricably related to the purpose of the rifle and the needs of the shooter. As such, there will be different barrel lengths that are best.

 

[Rimdenter]

Figured this is a good place to catalog the progress and information in the testing I’m working on. This is based on my copper solid bullets/load testing, but, figured while I’m at it, I’ll do conventional lead ammo as well. Starting with a 27” .217/.222 1-5.75 twist Bartlein barrel. Going to find a safe load with the copper bullets and run strictly speed testing. I going to chop off an inch at a time and see where the numbers take me. I also have a 23” barrel with the same specs and a 27” .219/.222 1-6.5 from K&P barrels. Plan is to only chop the long Bartlein first. If it’s found that a shorter barrel is better, I’ll possible chop the K&P to that length. Initially I’ll have numbers from the 27” for each though.
Did the 27” Bartlein last night. Hoping to working K&P tonight or tomorrow and start chopping this weekendView attachment 7614580View attachment 7614581
[/QUOT

So you think it’s more of a FPS and a more consistent combustion with the longer barrel that makes the most difference? Hmmmm.

My only counter would be I shoot a good bit of 22lr and have SD’s in the single digits frequently with my 16.5” bull varmint barrel cz 457. Shorter difference doesn’t seem to affect that in that barrel. But I haven’t had a chance to check the FPS on the chrono with my Mtr varmint cz457. Hmmmm. I realize we are talking long barrels vs short, but what are you considering short? I always thought/read that 16” was a good number for 22lr. Curious about all this. I don’t know how long elite shooters barrels are though, but I bet that may give a hint. They didn’t pick that length on accident

How does this gun group ? I would think awesome my CZS shoot great. How does it preform past 400 yds 500 yds ? Shorter barrels do allow for a minimal decrease of shooter error.

 

[Klay23]

I’ve had it out to 100. Best groups at 50 were .35”, best group at 100 was probably .8”. That is the pro Varmint with a 16.5” barrel. I have since changed the barrel to a lilja which is also 16.5” but haven’t had it out yet past 50 but it easily shot .3” at 50 with multiple ammos.

My Mtr varmint which is stock with the 20” barrel shot .35” or so 50 yesterday and a better than .75” group at 100 yesterday. My buddy measured it as you can see as it was on his paper and I had to leave and couldn’t go down range and get it. Norma Match ammo with that group

 

[Klay23]

Heading to a new range this morning that has steel out to 500, going to see what the cz457’s can do.

 

[Rimdenter]

Figured this is a good place to catalog the progress and information in the testing I’m working on. This is based on my copper solid bullets/load testing, but, figured while I’m at it, I’ll do conventional lead ammo as well. Starting with a 27” .217/.222 1-5.75 twist Bartlein barrel. Going to find a safe load with the copper bullets and run strictly speed testing. I going to chop off an inch at a time and see where the numbers take me. I also have a 23” barrel with the same specs and a 27” .219/.222 1-6.5 from K&P barrels. Plan is to only chop the long Bartlein first. If it’s found that a shorter barrel is better, I’ll possible chop the K&P to that length. Initially I’ll have numbers from the 27” for each though.
Did the 27” Bartlein last night. Hoping to working K&P tonight or tomorrow and start chopping this weekendView attachment 7614580View attachment 7614581

You are on the right track since you roll your own , what percentage of powder did you have to decrease when going from a 16t to a 5.75 t barrel 10 ish?

 

[justin amateur]

Barrel length and accuracy?

Buncha questions with that comparison...

How much variation in results is caused by minor variations in bore diameter?
Same barrel, cut it off at different point and results will vary.
That's the reason ya' slug a barrel to find the tight spot and cut it off there.
How can you compare ES, SD results to barrel length when the ammunition itself has so much variation in mv itself?
Are we talking scoped or peep sights accuracy? Scoped I don't find much difference.
With peeps the longer sight radius will offer a major advantage with the long barrel.

I've tried to compare barrel length to mv spread.
Didn't work as I couldn't differentiate between ammo caused spread or barrel derived differences.

 

[Rimdenter]

I’ve had it out to 100. Best groups at 50 were .35”, best group at 100 was probably .8”. That is the pro Varmint with a 16.5” barrel. I have since changed the barrel to a lilja which is also 16.5” but haven’t had it out yet past 50 but it easily shot .3” at 50 with multiple ammos.

My Mtr varmint which is stock with the 20” barrel shot .35” or so 50 yesterday and a better than .75” group at 100 yesterday. My buddy measured it as you can see as it was on his paper and I had to leave and couldn’t go down range and get it. Norma Match ammo with that group

If your shooting .35 at 50 and .7ish at 100 with a single digit sd every round should hit in 18" at 500 yds. I think your gonna see the GYRO Monster show up today , let us know your results try a 10 shot group at 500 you only need 97-99 moa to get you there. Just a few inches shy of a 4 story building before impacting the target at 500.

 

[Klay23]

If your shooting .35 at 50 and .7ish at 100 with a single digit sd every round should hit in 18" at 500 yds. I think your gonna see the GYRO Monster show up today , let us know your results try a 10 shot group at 500 you only need 97-99 moa to get you there. Just a few inches shy of a 4 story building before impacting the target at 500.

Just curious how the wind is going to treat my little 22.

 

[Rimdenter]

Just curious how the wind is going to treat my little 22.

No bad if its consistant like throwing a 5 foot curve ball at 4mph wind. With a 40 foot rise and fall.

 

[Gleedus]

Barrel length and accuracy?

Buncha questions with that comparison...

How much variation in results is caused by minor variations in bore diameter?
Same barrel, cut it off at different point and results will vary.
That's the reason ya' slug a barrel to find the tight spot and cut it off there.
How can you compare ES, SD results to barrel length when the ammunition itself has so much variation in mv itself?
Are we talking scoped or peep sights accuracy? Scoped I don't find much difference.
With peeps the longer sight radius will offer a major advantage with the long barrel.

I've tried to compare barrel length to mv spread.
Didn't work as I couldn't differentiate between ammo caused spread or barrel derived differences.

So BR and long barrels is only for tunability and folk lore? In all due respect.

 

[justin amateur]

What? Didja expect me to follow the accepted norm C?

You know better than that.

Barrel quality has more to do with accuracy than barrel length from my results.
I have a Shilen Select 18" cone breach that produces better results than my 21 inch Lilja.
Is it because it's only had about 2 bricks through it while the Lilja is almost at 10k sent?
Could it be due to the fact I could index the cone breach to find the favored orientation?

Tuners fit the harmonics to the ammo, won't fix mv spread or cartridge defects...

 

[Geno C.]

Holy shit, didn’t figure you guys would get lost. This isn’t about normal lead ammo. Take what you’re thinking about and forget it. The sole purpose of this test is to find out where peak speed is with my handloaded, copper solid bullets. All the other info that will be provided, well, maybe not anymore, is just because I’m running this test for my stuff and is extra. What anyone concludes about it is entirely up to them.

If you’re not shooting these then you’re not on the same page with what you’ve seen in the past or read on the internet

 

[Geno C.]

The optimum barrel lenght is what obtains complete gas expansion within 1" or less of muzzle exit while imparting , gyroscopic stability to the desired profile and weight of projectile. Veloicty and stability are required to successfully impact a target at greater distances. Theres a give and take in any instance each and every shooter has to find their , best combination for what their trying to achieve repeatedly.

The first sentence is false

 

[Geno C.]

You are on the right track since you roll your own , what percentage of powder did you have to decrease when going from a 16t to a 5.75 t barrel 10 ish?

I would never load these in a 16 twist. They’re isn’t a chance they would stabilize

 

[Geno C.]

Keep you some cleaning brushes handy for the lead on the fast ones.

What are you referring to?

 

[Rimdenter]

What are you referring to?

The soft lead bullets will start wiping off in the fast twist I saw this at 1-7 in a .224 blank, build up.

 

[Rimdenter]

The first sentence is false

How so ?