Barrel Life/Barrel Cost Formula?

[THEIS]

Hi,

Over the past 5 months we at Hoplite Arms have been really focused on increasing barrel life.....particularly with the high pressure cartridges we intend to release.

So my question is:
1. What would you pay for barrel that had 3x or more barrel life compared to what is considered average life expectancy right now?

Disclaimer, lol....
I will not answer/confirm/deny any alloy questions/comments/suggestions/etc, so might as well not even mention any, haha.

YES I understand how and where barrels "wear out"
NO I am not referring to any coating for the intended barrel life improvement
I am talking of stand alone barrel cost, completely independent of our weapon systems division.

Sincerely,
Theis

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Steel head]

If my $700 dollar barrel became a $1000-1100 barrel and lasted twice as long or more I’d be ecstatic.
Having a sorted barrel with trued up data last longer would be awesome.
I recently had a phenomenal barrel that was hammering die on me, so sad

 

[Mech Eng]

Me personally I think it comes down to the purpose of the barrel and if you could increase the life of the barrel three times the normal service life I think that would be worth around $1200.

 

[TheBoctor]

For cartridges that I know are going to be high volume and/or competition use that I plan on sticking with? I'm inline with Steel head, a 50% bump for double the life expectancy would be about right. Think 6 Dasher, 6 CM, 6.5x47, etc.

For the heavy magnums I could see paying double for double the barrel life. It's tough, especially in ELR and long range hunting guns, when you're scared to practice because the imaginary counter is always running in the back of your mind. By the time you're done with fire form, load development and finally get familiar with the round the useful life of the barrel can be down to 200-300 rounds, which really discourages "wasting" shots.

For some of the hotrods that I tinker with just because i think they're cool? I probably wouldn't pony up. Barrel life typically coincides perfectly with my attention span and by the time the barrel shits the bed I'm usually over it and ready to screw with something else.

 

[Guns&WhiteWater]

I’d pay double the price for double the life straight up. It’s still cheaper and you double the consistency.

 

[HMRamateur]

I think the sweet spot should sit around an extra 50%-66% extra cost for 100% extra barrel life. Would I pay closer to 100% cost for 100% increase in barrel life? Maybe, but that's a big purchase right up front, when for half the price I can have a barrel that will still last me the same time I'm used to, and by the time its shot out, I'll have the money for another one, and it cost the same in the end. If I am able to change the barrels myself, thats sweet, but if not, then it will save gunsmithing costs and will make the higher cost look more appealing, as I am still saving on installation. But then again, you're having to convince people twice the price for twice the life is worth more to them than half the price for half the life.

 

[RTH1800]

Will standard reamers and tooling cut the metal? Will it be harder on both? Will our normal gunsmiths be willing and able to work on it?
Will accuracy be as good as a Bartlien?
Thanks!

 

[brian_]

Once proven to have double/triple “standard” accurate barrel life, I would easily pay 50% more.

Beyond that, the abundance of easy and cheap pre-fit options available now would have me hesitating to pay more upfront.

Either way zero % chance I would be an early adopter, so can’t help there.

 

[Powder_Burns]

I’m just a trigger jockey with no professional background in gun plumbing, but I always thought barrels wear out at the throat and the only way to extend bbl life was to buy a longer tube and set the bbl back once your throat eroded past a certain point. For you high volume shooters, overbore cartridge guys..when your barrels are ‘shot out’ is it just a matter of throat erosion or is your rifling trashed as well?

 

[Steel head]

I’m just a trigger jockey with no professional background in gun plumbing, but I always thought barrels wear out at the throat and the only way to extend bbl life was to buy a longer tube and set the bbl back once your throat eroded past a certain point. For you high volume shooters, overbore cartridge guys..when your barrels are ‘shot out’ is it just a matter of throat erosion or is your rifling trashed as well?

You’d have to chop out over a foot of barrel to get some kinda ok rifling on my dead 7 saum barrel.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Gotcha. I guess rounds like that are called barrel burners for a reason.

 

[TheBoctor]

You’d have to chop out over a foot of barrel to get some kinda ok rifling on my dead 7 saum barrel.

Not to mention on a lot of the lighter profile barrels and especially the CFW offerings, there's not enough shank to safely cut another chamber, even if you were to just be setting it back a tenon length.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I would say that assuming the more expensive barrel is fully rated to last at least 3x the number of rounds of the standard barrel,
the premium barrel could probably get away with being close to double the price of the standard barrel
but once it goes over double the cost, more than likely the popularity starts to drop off and folks would prefer just to get more standard barrels.

So I'd suggest the sweet spot is 1.5x to 2x the price.

 

[goosed]

When you say barrels...

Are we talking barrel blanks or pre-fits?
All actions or Hoplite only?

If we're talking pre-fits on regular actions; I think the 50% increase per extra barrel life already mentioned is a no brainer which to buy for most of us. Personally, I would pay up to 100% per barrel life for certain calibers.

If we're talking Hoplite for extra pressure cartridges, I would even do 125% per extra barrel life. Changing barrels every 500-1000 rounds is an annoying hassle.

If we're talking blanks... 25% increase per extra barrel... maybe. Too many unknowns at this point... will standard reamers work... are guns smiths going to be grumbling every time one of these blanks show up and toss it on the back burner... how much more will it cost to chamber... etc. etc. etc.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Hi,

Over the past 5 months we at Hoplite Arms have been really focused on increasing barrel life.....particularly with the high pressure cartridges we intend to release.

So my question is:
1. What would you pay for barrel that had 3x or more barrel life compared to what is considered average life expectancy right now?

Disclaimer, lol....
I will not answer/confirm/deny any alloy questions/comments/suggestions/etc, so might as well not even mention any, haha.

YES I understand how and where barrels "wear out"
NO I am not referring to any coating for the intended barrel life improvement
I am talking of stand alone barrel cost, completely independent of our weapon systems division.

Sincerely,
Theis

Sincerely,
Theis

Theis,

Before I can answer I think I need to ask a few clarifying questions:

-What do you consider “shot out” or “average life expectancy”?

-Are these blanks or pre fits?

-Will my gunsmith incur addition expenses passing those on to me?

-How will you guarantee this improved performance?

-Are these across the board gains for overbores and non-overbore cartridges?


I hunt. I don’t like to walk too far to pick up a coyote. I like small groups as much as the next guy but 1” @ 100 is still staying on my rifle. Someone shooting for another discipline might say I’m crazy.

I like your idea, I just want to make it an interesting conversation and not just say “oh yeah I’ll take one”

 

[Squibbler]

So my question is:
1. What would you pay for barrel that had 3x or more barrel life compared to what is considered average life expectancy right now?

Considering all other variables negated, I would pay double the price for a barrel that had 3x or more barrel life.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I wouldnt pay any more unless its a mature, proven process thats guarenteed.

if it doesnt last as long as advertised, you giving me a full refund plus smith fees?

nitrided and CL barrels have been done. Probally a good reason they arent more popular on precision rifles.

too many wild claims and snake oil salesmen in this industry that quite frankly, always reveal themselves in time.

if you really did slay that dragon than kudos, but i wont buy it till its proven in time and numbers.

 

[E-Tool]

Will standard reamers and tooling cut the metal? Will it be harder on both? Will our normal gunsmiths be willing and able to work on it?
Will accuracy be as good as a Bartlien?
Thanks!

Well since tou mention alloy you’ve obviously come up with a metal forumla that allows for it. Depends on how the barrel needs treated to be useful.

I’d need an MRAD barrel made, others probably rem700 style, or AI.

Ideally the barrel would be ready to break in an double the price because if you don’t patent the material as soon as a competitor buys a blank they will have it teated and order their own metals made fairly close to your composition. Once the cat is out of the bag it’s out and is a game changer for the firearms industry.

I’d focus on the patent and how much you would be charging to license it’s use for as long as you can.

 

[THEIS]

Theis,

Before I can answer I think I need to ask a few clarifying questions:

-What do you consider “shot out” or “average life expectancy”?

-Are these blanks or pre fits?

-Will my gunsmith incur addition expenses passing those on to me?

-How will you guarantee this improved performance?

-Are these across the board gains for overbores and non-overbore cartridges?


I hunt. I don’t like to walk too far to pick up a coyote. I like small groups as much as the next guy but 1” @ 100 is still staying on my rifle. Someone shooting for another discipline might say I’m crazy.

I like your idea, I just want to make it an interesting conversation and not just say “oh yeah I’ll take one”

Hi,

I definitely like conversation!!! We are not at point to where I would ask anyone to buy one yet, lol...that is not how we operate over here.

1. We are getting ready to dive off into database spreadsheet of "average life expectancy" per cartridge so that we can get an "industry accepted" number.
2. Prefit, ready to screw onto your receiver.
3. See #2.
4. National and International testing and accreditation facilities such as NTS and RUAG facility in Thun Switzerland and Overberg test facility in South Africa, etc etc.
5. The alloy does not discriminate between cartridges..life is life.

Sincerely,
Theis

When you say barrels...

Are we talking barrel blanks or pre-fits?
All actions or Hoplite only?

If we're talking pre-fits on regular actions; I think the 50% increase per extra barrel life already mentioned is a no brainer which to buy for most of us. Personally, I would pay up to 100% per barrel life for certain calibers.

If we're talking Hoplite for extra pressure cartridges, I would even do 125% per extra barrel life. Changing barrels every 500-1000 rounds is an annoying hassle.

If we're talking blanks... 25% increase per extra barrel... maybe. Too many unknowns at this point... will standard reamers work... are guns smiths going to be grumbling every time one of these blanks show up and toss it on the back burner... how much more will it cost to chamber... etc. etc. etc.

Hi,

I am talking across the board.
Chambered and threaded for your receiver before it ships.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Mech Eng]

I'm interested to see the idea behind this as you will make a lot of money if you can get close to 3 x the life of a barrel. Considering we are talking about mainly material science so a new alloy being used or a composite barrel design this is very interesting.

 

[wadebrown]

as the US military moves away from 7.62 as their long range round towards 6.5 mm and faster 300's and larger bores all which will have shorter lifetimes than the venerable 7.62 I would think they might be very interested in barrels with twice the life. When I worked OneShot I tried to get interest in using 6.5 mm rounds as a means of extending the M40's' with a new barrel but the concern at that time was barrel life. My solution was to deploy the rifles with barrels that are fit to individual M40 and serializing the barrels so a definite match could be made in theater, but that did not fly at the time. I think if I could have pitched 6.5 mm's with a barrel life of 3,000 rounds I think it would have gotten traction 10 years ago.

Yes, I realize that the armed services are looking at 6.5 mm know I think that may be in large part due to the popularity of the 6.5 Creedmore.

Just some random thoughts,
wade

 

[A&8's]

Once proven 3x more life and providing standard reamers could be used to chamber, I'd pay 30-50% more per blank.

 

[WildBill3/75]

We already have this in the market and its name is Chrome lining. Melonite as well to a lesser degree.

Lothar walther tried it with lw50 instead of 416. Most Smith's hate chambering those barrels.

The kicker is if you could get hand lapped cut rifled stainless performance.

If that was obtainable and you truly have something revolutionary then I'd say 1.5-2x stainless cost assuming it's not a bitch to work with.

 

[seanh]

1. Release 100 barrels to proven gold medal/world class shooters...free of cost in the 10 top chamberings. You pay for ammo.

2. Do another 100 (blanks), common bore dia./twist. to lottery draw winners.. they spin as they want, they pay for their ammo...

Doing this will give real world proof your customers will want.

 

[W54/XM-388]

1. Release 100 barrels to proven gold medal/world class shooters...free of cost in the 10 top chamberings. You pay for ammo.

2. Do another 100 (blanks), common bore dia./twist. to lottery draw winners.. they spin as they want, they pay for their ammo...

Doing this will give real world proof your customers will want.

A couple quick notes on your ideas:

1. There is no such thing as a free lunch if you want "free ammo and free barrels" given to 100 shooters, guess what... everybody else gets to pay for it in the form of higher prices unless you'd like to personally pay for it out of pocket. "Free" to somebody just means everybody else gets to pay more to subsidize that special somebody.

I'd suggest that you'd be able to get just as good results from a smaller group such as 10 shooters who are attention oriented and are happy to test out the barrels as part of their normal match shooting, at their own ammo cost as part of their normal schedule which is more realistic real world conditions.
Then let the results speak for themselves and word can get around organically and the top shooters will be beating a path to the door to get those barrels to help give them an edge.
Any bigger purchase contracts are welcome to request a sample to test for themselves (which they would do anyways).

2. Depending on the end result process, it may become something where you have to order the finished barrel from the company as it may not wind up being something easy to work on part way through the process and the chambering / rifling is done partway through the process.

 

[brianf]

Hi,

Over the past 5 months we at Hoplite Arms have been really focused on increasing barrel life.....particularly with the high pressure cartridges we intend to release.

So my question is:
1. What would you pay for barrel that had 3x or more barrel life compared to what is considered average life expectancy right now?

Disclaimer, lol....
I will not answer/confirm/deny any alloy questions/comments/suggestions/etc, so might as well not even mention any, haha.

YES I understand how and where barrels "wear out"
NO I am not referring to any coating for the intended barrel life improvement
I am talking of stand alone barrel cost, completely independent of our weapon systems division.

Sincerely,
Theis

Been reading and following the thread from the start (quoted for clarity).

Seems to me many replies have gone off on a tangent.

Thread has gone from how much would you pay for barrel life, especially barrel burners to:


Misc business advice
Asking what materials or process (clearly stated above there will not be discussion as of yet)
What tech is being used (again, clearly stated above)
Substantiation of claims (again suggestions required)


It seems the OP is clearly asking for a apples to apples comparison of barrel life to $$$.

Example (numbers used for easy math not reality)

"Current" CM/SS barrel $500 = Barrel Life 1000 rounds

"New" barrel $1000 = Barrel Life 2000 rounds

Barrel Life to Cost ratio stays the same

I personally would pay slightly more than 2X $ (for 2X barrel life)

If nothing else but to save on working up a new load or needing a extra barrel mid season incase my current barrel falls off


For any of the previous posters can you reply with what you consider barrel life...actual data not "industry knowledge"

My last 300 WM dropped below 3/4 MOA between 1750-1800 rounds. Would i have paid 2X for at least 3500 rounds..with out a doubt

Adding to that there is a difference between Barrel Life and Accurate Barrel Life

Once this thread gets some decent data/numbers that have actually been shot (not internet 338LM lets go after 1200 rounds garbage) i suggest a spread sheet put together and see what every round down the barrel costs in barrel life.

If its a plinking AR then ill shoot it until the barrel melts because accuracy doesnt count for mag dumps, so its not worth spending the $.

If we are talking competition or searching for the perfect one hole group thats a totally different story.

Then its a numbers game not opinion.

If i can keep the cost per round down the tube pretty close ill take every bit of barrel life i can buy because its the same $ out of pocket at the end of the day

And one less variable or timeline to deal with.

Just my 2 cents..

 

[lennyo3034]

If a barrel lasted 3 times longer, I would probably be willing to pay 4x the price.

With every new barrel, I tend to put 100-200 rounds through it before load development because they speed up. Then do actual load development. All of this eats into barrel life, ammo, travel to range, and most importantly time. If I only have to do that once instead of 3 times, I’d be willing to pay more.

 

[hereinaz]

If a barrel lasted 3 times longer, I would probably be willing to pay 4x the price.

With every new barrel, I tend to put 100-200 rounds through it before load development because they speed up. Then do actual load development. All of this eats into barrel life, ammo, travel to range, and most importantly time. If I only have to do that once instead of 3 times, I’d be willing to pay more.

This... we pay for the shooting life, not the total life. There are opportunity costs from having to bull a barrel and start load development over again. And, presumably, the deterioration would slow so loads would last longer.

For instance, getting 308 barrel life out of a 6mm...

If I got more usable barrel life that is the value.

 

[Geno C.]

My personal example. My current barrel was about $550 for the blank. I’m hoping it will last 4-500 rounds. If I could get 1000 out of it, it would be worth $1500 to me. The cost of the rounds to find a load and smith cost would put me ahead. For smaller calibers with longer life, I don’t think it would go triple but maybe double.

 

[308Gunner]

I would pay 1200 to say 1500 for a barrel that will last twice as long, a 25 creed that will get 5 to 6000 rounds would be worth some coin. I am not talking a comp rifle but I pulled my last 6.5 SLR at 2400 and could have gone 3000 with accuracy 1/2 MOA

 

[Frank Green]

Well here it goes.....after seeing this thread we've decided to make a press release.....

Bartlein Barrels is pleased to announce the release of a new barrel material. Working with the mill and testing different types of material and tweaking the material over the last few years and with testing having been performed by ammunition makers we now have a different grade of material that we have had made and is proprietary to us.

The material has been proven in lab testing and in outside real world testing to provide a barrel life that is 1.5 to 2 times longer than the standard 416 grade of material.

We are calling the material 400MODBB. Pricing for this barrel material in standard diameters/contours etc...will be $555.

As always there are a list of things that effect barrel life and we cannot guarantee everything a 100% but for an example as I know it will be asked....in 6.5CM ammunition pressure test barrels are normally pulled from service at around 1700 rounds. The new material doing the same type of ammunition test work the barrel was pulled from service after it had 3500 rounds on it. We've had several 6mm's in calibers that the barrel normally is pulled around 1500 rounds go 3000 rounds.

We and or the customers that have done the threading and chamber work have had no issues with machining. I will say your reamers will not last as long but nothing that would really concern me. It does machine a little different but it's not horrible to work with.

So you will have a choice of the standard 416 material from us and the 400MODBB material.

Any questions it would be a lot easier if you emailed us at [email protected] or called in directly at 262-677-1717 but I can only imagine the amount of questions we will be getting and with everything going on in the world currently I'll ask you to be patient for the replies.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Awesome @Frank Green
I have been excited since we spoke about all the testing you all have been doing with it.
PO incoming through @DAVETOOLEY
The 400MODBB will be standard issue on all our Hoplite Arms rifles!!!

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[_Windrider_]

Well here it goes.....after seeing this thread we've decided to make a press release.....

Bartlein Barrels is pleased to announce the release of a new barrel material. Working with the mill and testing different types of material and tweaking the material over the last few years and with testing having been performed by ammunition makers we now have a different grade of material that we have had made and is proprietary to us.

The material has been proven in lab testing and in outside real world testing to provide a barrel life that is 1.5 to 2 times longer than the standard 416 grade of material.

We are calling the material 400MODBB. Pricing for this barrel material in standard diameters/contours etc...will be $555.

As always there are a list of things that effect barrel life and we cannot guarantee everything a 100% but for an example as I know it will be asked....in 6.5CM ammunition pressure test barrels are normally pulled from service at around 1700 rounds. The new material doing the same type of ammunition test work the barrel was pulled from service after it had 3500 rounds on it. We've had several 6mm's in calibers that the barrel normally is pulled around 1500 rounds go 3000 rounds.

We and or the customers that have done the threading and chamber work have had no issues with machining. I will say your reamers will not last as long but nothing that would really concern me. It does machine a little different but it's not horrible to work with.

So you will have a choice of the standard 416 material from us and the 400MODBB material.

Any questions it would be a lot easier if you emailed us at [email protected] or called in directly at 262-677-1717 but I can only imagine the amount of questions we will be getting and with everything going on in the world currently I'll ask you to be patient for the replies.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

can i get it LH Gain twist?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I wonder about inside out case hardening; ala molten salt...

Just a thought...

 

[Frank Green]

can i get it LH Gain twist?

Yes

 

[Frank Green]

I wonder about inside out case hardening; ala molten salt...

Just a thought...

Nothing has been noted or reported out of the ordinary. The one 6.5CM test barrel that has 3500 rounds on it even though it has been pulled from service (was pulled because the barrel had given up 40fps and pressure started to change) with timer permitting they will keep shooting it to see what it does with more rounds being put on it. With the state of what is going on in the world though that part of it is on the back burner. That barrel was getting 100+ to 300ish rounds a week put on it. Barrel performed the whole time.

The other thing that was noted by several different people and the comment that got back to me was the new material seems to foul less and clean easier. If this holds and seems to be true it ends up being a benefit/bonus. No way we could've planned for that.

Previous material we tested we did notice no different in fouling so we expected the same once we ordered a mill run of the material in the final form we wanted.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Sounds very, very good; but the question...

 

[ohiofarmer]

@Frank Green

Are these a stainless steel? Or would one be well advised to put some sort of protective bluing, coating, plating, etc. on them?

 

[Frank Green]

@Frank Green

Are these a stainless steel? Or would one be well advised to put some sort of protective bluing, coating, plating, etc. on them?

Still a 400 series of Stainless. That being said any of the stainless type barrels can corrode/pit from not cleaning them or wiping them down etc... This is not surgical stainless.

stainless steel barrels don't readily take bluing at all.

I for the most part don't put any type of bead blasting, cerakoting etc...on most of my target guns.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Well here it goes.....after seeing this thread we've decided to make a press release.....

Bartlein Barrels is pleased to announce the release of a new barrel material. Working with the mill and testing different types of material and tweaking the material over the last few years and with testing having been performed by ammunition makers we now have a different grade of material that we have had made and is proprietary to us.

The material has been proven in lab testing and in outside real world testing to provide a barrel life that is 1.5 to 2 times longer than the standard 416 grade of material.

We are calling the material 400MODBB. Pricing for this barrel material in standard diameters/contours etc...will be $555.

As always there are a list of things that effect barrel life and we cannot guarantee everything a 100% but for an example as I know it will be asked....in 6.5CM ammunition pressure test barrels are normally pulled from service at around 1700 rounds. The new material doing the same type of ammunition test work the barrel was pulled from service after it had 3500 rounds on it. We've had several 6mm's in calibers that the barrel normally is pulled around 1500 rounds go 3000 rounds.

We and or the customers that have done the threading and chamber work have had no issues with machining. I will say your reamers will not last as long but nothing that would really concern me. It does machine a little different but it's not horrible to work with.

So you will have a choice of the standard 416 material from us and the 400MODBB material.

Any questions it would be a lot easier if you emailed us at [email protected] or called in directly at 262-677-1717 but I can only imagine the amount of questions we will be getting and with everything going on in the world currently I'll ask you to be patient for the replies.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Good shit
nuff said

 

[Evlshnngns]

Nice work Bartlien crew!

 

[drwood96]

@Frank Green

Will the carbon barrels be available in 400MODBB?

 

[seansmd]

Could one of these experts contrast this with the sleeved technology I heard shared on the PRM podcast, Dracos Straightjacket barrels? I believe the site barrels were Bartlien as well.

 

[Geno C.]

@Frank Green

Will the carbon barrels be available in 400MODBB?

Says $900 for a wrapped one

 

[SD Carpenter]

Can it be cut and chambered the same way?

 

[Geno C.]

Yes

 

[Geno C.]

All these answers are in Bartlein’s announcement thread

 

[drwood96]

Yep, just saw the separate thread.

Bartlein Thread

 

[Frank Green]

@Frank Green

Will the carbon barrels be available in 400MODBB?

Are you asking in the carbon fiber wrapped? The answer is yes. We’ve already done them. Go to the main thread I started on the material in bolt gun forum.

Later, Frank