Gunsmithing Barrel screwed on action at an angle

[Oneeyedclay]

I'm looking to get some input into this situation I currently have going on.

I purchased a Remington 700 AAC-SD, a used McMillan A4 and a New (previously owned but never used) Bartlein 5R 6.5mm Barrel. I asked a local Gunsmith to put it all together and specifically asked for:

• Action and Bolt truing (Lug abatement truing)
• Square receiver face
• Sharp corners to be chamfered
• Single point cut on receiver threads
• Indicate the barrel to the actual bore to within .0002

And a few other things that I don't think apply.

What I got back took me a long night to wrap my head around but basically from what I can tell, the action face is not squared and the barrel is screwed in at about a 3 degree angle off to the right (if you are looking down at the top of the action from above). The rest is pretty self explanatory looking at the pictures.

The problem I'm running into is that the Gun Shop and the Smith are disputing this saying that the Smith trued the barrel to the the bolt raceway and it is (His Words) "Perfectly Fine". This is after he told me it was an optical illusion. I'm no Gun Smith by far and although this isn't my first custom build, it's my first with this guy and this problem is one I've never encountered. Just looking for some experienced advice as to what someone may think the exact problem is.

Thanks for any input

 

[jonaddis84]

Yikes, thats a tough call. Looks like they bedded the barrel channel to compensate for the barrel being off center?

If you have it apart, and want a second opinion, you can send it to me and Ill dial it in and see what everything looks like. Really hard to make any conjectures based on the pictures. I feel that it would be very hard to cut a receiver face THAT far off, potentially there is an issue with the action itself and the bolt raceway being cut way off from the OD of the action.

Anyway, PM me if you want a second look.

 

[Ledzep]

wow, nice.

I'd take the above poster up on his offer. Hopefully if it is goofed there's enough meat left to salvage the barrel and receiver. What contour barrel?

 

[eddieharren]

I agree. The bolt raceway may be that far out of alignment with the OD of the action. That is why the action face, threads and lugs are trued to the bolt race. I would shoot it before doing any re machining. As side note, I wouldn't bet my life on the combination square as a Precision instrument.

 

[GH41]

"I wouldn't bet my life on the combination square as a Precision instrument"

^^^ What he said ^^^

 

[Frank Green]

I hear repeatedly of the different ways people true actions. Some ways are worse then others. The first question I would ask is how was the receiver set up and trued?

Most factory actions are machined before final heat treat. The actions can warp/twist to different degrees.

Lets assume the action was warped/twisted badly. If the gunsmith chucked the receiver up in the lathe on the o.d. of the action and then did the truing he could've made it worse than what it was. You have to find out how it was set up and how it was done etc...

I would try shooting it first as was suggested earlier and see how it shoots and if you encounter other problems make a note of what problems you have. Not enough windage adjustment in the scope etc....

My $0.02.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[E. Bryant]

As side note, I wouldn't bet my life on the combination square as a Precision instrument.

While this is true, please note that he flipped the receiver around 180 degrees and repeated the measurement. If the error was the result of the square instead of the receiver face, the measurement error would not have "followed" the part as clearly shown in pictures 1 & 2. Between this set of measurements and the picture of the stock, it's obvious that the receiver face perpendicularity is way off.

I'd be very interested in seeing what Jon would find; I wouldn't be surprised to find that the receiver face is now perpendicular to the bolt raceway, and that the action OD is way off. But that should also be immediately evident by visual inspection of the rear of the receiver raceway.

 

[ugsly]

I would take Jon up on his offer, he's a great guy and will get it straightened out for you. Did you get a chance to look at the threads on the action to see if they trued them?

Casey

 

[wtopace]

Try sliding your bolt into the front raceway and see if it deflects strongly one way or the other. According to your square, you should be able to easily see the angular difference.

If your bolt deflects, then most likely there is an offset between your raceway and receiver OD. If the bolt is straight as an arrow, then your smith probably trued your received on his belt grinder with his rock-steady 0.0002" runout hand-hold =)

 

[300sniper]

I'm a bit suspect of a 700 bore to od alignment being that far out, but I certainly won't say it is impossible.

 

[PCR]

OP,

I don't know who locally did this work for you, but we are in Tempe, just around the corner from Chandler. If you would like to bring your parts by, we would be happy to check receiver alignment and determine exactly where you stand with this.

Brad,
480-747-0528

 

[cal50]

Shoot it and see if your windage mechanical zero is close.
You can remove the bolt and eyeball it.

Something does look right from the pics.

 

[Oneeyedclay]

The barrel contour is MTU. Purchased here on the Hide. I checked he barrel immediately after receiving it to see if it was warped. We looked for shadowing in the bore and also ran a 6MM rod through it. No issues. Upon inspection of the bolt and receiver after taking it back to the GC I specifically checked to see if the bolt was going in at an angle, I didn't eyeball any angular issues. it looked to go in pretty straight. I would like to add that I purchased the Remington 700 AAC-SD (RR Serial number) new from Sportsman's Warehouse and had it set in the same stock prior to this work being done with the OEM barrel. It sat in straight with no deviation left or right and it fired good groups at 100Y. There was no noticeable deviation between action and barrel except that it had a slight "up cant" (see photo) and worked flawlessly.

The GS is saying that the bolt raceway and action are not in alignment though I can't understand how that would justify screwing in a barrel that is (by my measurements using a protractor) 3 degrees off to the right from the action. That's a HUGE offset and a little geometry will tell that your point of impact is going to be wayyyy far to the right of where your scope and action are pointed. to the extent that I don't think anyone makes a scope to account for that much windage. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one. This is really new to me. The owner of the Gun shop has Graciously volunteered to have a Third party reputable Custom Rifle maker take a loo at it to evaluate if there is a craftsmanship issue or if Remington just shipped out a lemon receiver even i doubt that may be the case, I'm certainly not discounting it entirely.

I will post further updates as they come in. I bug the guy pretty much daily

Thank you for the good and Very productive feedback on this. it has been extremely helpful. Though I am not at all worried at this point, being 3K in the hole for parts and labor, I am deeply concerned. (And a little Pissed)

Thanks ! ! !

 

[mveto]

Hopefully you get the resolution that you want. I'd be pretty pissed if I sent off a rifle to have that work done and it came back looking like that. I would be more than bugging the GS daily. Good luck with it all.

 

[Oneeyedclay]

Thanks Mveto, i'm on him daily for updates. hoping it gets resolved quick. Will keep further updates coming.

 

[flatland1]

Based on a conversation I had with Dave Kiff at PTG a couple of months ago, your new 'RR' prefix action should've been heat treated before the ejection port & magazine cutout were machined. He says Remington finally started doing the heat treat before machining after they'd purchased new machinery, and for all intents & purposes, that should minimize the amount of warpage we're used to seeing in the M700 actions.

I've set up several of these newer actions in a Gre Tan-style action truing fixture, indicating off a mandrel in the action's bolt raceway. Most have indicated well under .002" runout on the receiver face, but a couple had over .003" TIR. One had only .0002" on the face, and less than .001" on the lug seats, so I used it in as-is condition for my own 6x47 Lapua build.

Whatever - I've moved away from using M700s for my own builds after trying one of AJ Goddard's Bighorn TL2-SA actions, even though I can do all the action truing work myself (though I still send OEM bolts out to Greg Tannel to have boltfaces bushed), and have no problem in advising potential customers to do the same. Good luck with your build - hope everything works out well for you.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

I actually saw this come into PCR while hanging out watching my build take place. I won't mention the name of the shop but I was impressed they spent the time and money having Keith & Brad help trouble shoot and identify the problems. It's nice to see local builders helping each-other; it really speaks to the nature of PCR as well sharing their knowledge. PCR made some suggestions and I hope the builders take the advice and keep things win-win. I can't discuss the "deal" as I dont know if it happened as PCR laid out but if so I think everyone walks away satisfied.

Don't get me wrong the shop that did the work has great guys but gunsmiths are people too and can make mistakes.

 

[Oneeyedclay]

Looks like I'm finally getting some closure on this. Thanks everyone for the good advice and informative posts on this post. The GS and myself agreed to have a Third party evaluate the Rifle and ended up at Phoenix Custom Rifles. Now while the reason for the issue in the Original photos I posted may never be known because the problem was corrected before the Rifle could be evaluated, there were several other quality and service affecting issues that were identified. In a nut shell:

The Lug Abatement had to much metal removed and would have caused extraction issues.
To much metal was taken off the bolt lugs. Wayyy to much. It basically wiggleed while in the action when locked down. Bolt basically can't be used again.
The 8/40 screw hole upgrades, rear screw hole would not accomidate a acrew. Just wouldn't screw in.
The action and barrel were bedded at an angle in the stock.

There were more issues but I'll stop there since those are the most severe.

After Brad from Phoenix Custom Rifles had agreed to meet with the Gun Smith and educate him, he met with me and took me over the issues with the Rifle. I really want to thank both Brad and Keith from PCR. They had graciously volunteered several hours of their time to examine my Rifle, work with the Gun Smith and maintain an open dialogue with the Guns Smith that played an instrumental role in helping me negotiate for a refund for labor and compensation for damaged parts. While the refund and compensation part is still pending, I believe it will turn out well. The Owner of the Gun shop is a pretty stand up Guy and I believe he will make good.

Again, Thanks for the posts and for the People who offerd to take a look at my Rifle, Thank you Very much.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Glad to hear it is all working out. Might I add its nice that you were a gentleman in the whole process and didn't try to ruin future business for original builder. Seems like guys lose perspective and things turn bad fast for everyone involved. A lot of lessons to be learned here about doing the right thing on both ends. Hopefully everyone walks out of this satisfied.

 

[Oneeyedclay]

Thanks DevilDocAZ. I really have to take my hat off to Brad at PCR and also to the GS who did the work. Brad was absolutely a pivotal part in making this happen. His Son Keith and Him both took the time to exactly explain to me how I could have done this just a little better. I must ad that both Brad and Keith were in no way trying to sell me a product or bad mouth the other GS. They both looked at it as a good learning experience for all parties involved. I really believe everyone here is going to walk away from this with more knowledge, experience and a desire to do better. And I'm looking to getting my next build started. I am going to use PCR because they ae close and I can monitor the build (not that I need to) but it makes me feel a tad better anyway. Just glad this is nearing an end.

Thanks Again to PCR for their selfless help and advice.

 

[Keith Johns]

We're happy to help and eager to start!

Like DevilDocAZ said, we want everyone, including the original gunsmith, walking away feeling things went as fair as possible. The gunsmiths work definitely warrants a refund, but we didn't want this to be a negative experience for him. He'll learn many positive things from this, the rifle owner will be taken care of and have a better rifle than he originally imagined, and we will get to give back to the community that stands behind us.

 

[buckey]

We're happy to help and eager to start!

Like DevilDocAZ said, we want everyone, including the original gunsmith, walking away feeling things went as fair as possible. The gunsmiths work definitely warrants a refund, but we didn't want this to be a negative experience for him. He'll learn many positive things from this, the rifle owner will be taken care of and have a better rifle than he originally imagined, and we will get to give back to the community that stands behind us.

We need more outcomes like this - great job!!!

 

[honesthop]

eddie h. -a GOOD starret or equiv. quality adjustable tri-square in clean unmolested [meaning not used as a boom-a rang] can easily discern a 'few thousands'. as stated, flip over to opposite side [taper barrels]. a little ingenuity can go a long ways. starrets have other sliding rule lengths, my long one is 24''. I have the angle head and center finder. i worked in a chemical refinery for a living as a weldor/turbine millwright machinist for 28 years from the photos alone, one can see bad things stemming probably from one core issue screwing more up. precision 'square' sets are also available [mine have 4 sizes, mits, are reasonably priced. lifetime tools with care. no offence ed-Hoppy

 

[scudzuki]

I use fixed one piece squares for setup/gauging/inspecting.
Can't remember the last time I used a combo square, probably for layout work, though.

After reading this I see how loosely the work "gunsmith" gets tossed around.

 

[LRI]

I'm looking to get some input into this situation I currently have going on.

I purchased a Remington 700 AAC-SD, a used McMillan A4 and a New (previously owned but never used) Bartlein 5R 6.5mm Barrel. I asked a local Gunsmith to put it all together and specifically asked for:

• Action and Bolt truing (Lug abatement truing)
• Square receiver face
• Sharp corners to be chamfered
• Single point cut on receiver threads
• Indicate the barrel to the actual bore to within .0002

And a few other things that I don't think apply.

What I got back took me a long night to wrap my head around but basically from what I can tell, the action face is not squared and the barrel is screwed in at about a 3 degree angle off to the right (if you are looking down at the top of the action from above). The rest is pretty self explanatory looking at the pictures.

The problem I'm running into is that the Gun Shop and the Smith are disputing this saying that the Smith trued the barrel to the the bolt raceway and it is (His Words) "Perfectly Fine". This is after he told me it was an optical illusion. I'm no Gun Smith by far and although this isn't my first custom build, it's my first with this guy and this problem is one I've never encountered. Just looking for some experienced advice as to what someone may think the exact problem is.

Thanks for any input

Do This first:

One, qualify your square. A simple way to do this is to line it up with a sheet of copier paper. They control perpendicularity at paper mills quite well. Assuming you can lay a sheet of paper against face of the square and slide it up to the edge of your scale, I would bet that your very academic inspection is more accurate than some might be willing to give you credit for. "Eyeballing" your photo and guesstimating the error from your scale's graduations leads me to think you are off the reservation by about .1875 to .250" across the length of your action.
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Based off of your photo:

I pulled up a solid model of the M700 and "guessed" at the gap illustrated by your square. If the scale is making contact down by the bolt handle as the photo suggests, then you have an error of 1.9 degrees and some change. -Either in your square or the action.

For an action being tuned up to run this far off the grid, the work holding failed miserably. I would take a very, very long hard look at what it looks like with a barrel threaded into it. Chances are that if the barrel points in the correct direction, your square is AFU. Now, if you lay your scale against the side of the action and it hits the barrel on one side and runs away from it on the other, then you have some more talking points.

Next is throw glass on it and go shoot it. A .1875" error between where the action points and where the barrel points is going to give you approximately 124 minutes of windage that you will have to find from somewhere in order to make both point at the same spot. -You'll screw your turret right though the side of the scope trying to get that far.

Last, just toss the tools away and trust your eyes for a minute. Pull the bolt and look down the ass end of the action. Align your eyeball to the receiver bore that the bolt travels in. Unless you have a .338 or bigger caliber, you likely won't even be able to see the hole down the end of the barrel unless you cock your head off to the left a bit. It'll already be pointing over an inch in left field. (based on a 26" tube)

Good luck.

c.


Footnote. I didn't take the time initially to read the entire thread and followup dialog. My goof on that. Maybe this'll help someone down the road.

 

[sheepdog697]

glad to see this worked out, and i definitely respect the other qualified smiths for inputting their knowledge.