Barrel threading

[TimK]

Too bad the OP started out with the sneering tone about tactical this and that. Had he not insulted what is probably a majority of us who either shoot .22's suppressed or wish we could, this conversation (which is very interesting) could have been more fun. Not only are suppressed .22's a hoot to shoot alone, they make competitions just that much more fun. When an entire squad is suppressed, no one is wearing ear pro and the trash talk is even more fun. I've also been training my kids to shoot with a suppressed .22. Very nice to be able to communicate with them without the need for ear pro.

I'm in the midst of a new .22 project that's going to be running a Shilen Ratchet. Should be ready to try here in a week or so. I asked my smith to thread it 5/8"-24 rather than 1/2"-28 to try to alleviate any concerns about opening up the bore. I'll just run a reducer to get it down to 1/2"-28 so I can run one of my .22 cans on it. I've been doing that on my old Lilja barreled 40X repeater for years. Had it originally threaded 5/8-24 because all I had at the time was a centerfire can.

 

[flatland1]

I typically do lot testing down an old cattle feedlot alley with concrete floor & concrete bunks lining both sides. This set-up reflects a lot of the muzzle report, and makes it pretty easy to correlate muzzle report with velocity. I've shot a lot of std vel rounds out of 40XB & Vudoo repeaters and single shots, unsuppressed, suppressed, and with Pro-X tuners on V-22 repeater & V-22S single shot rifles. Of course suppressed is the quietest, but it's surprising how much the tuners mask the muzzle report. Given how much improvement in accuracy I've seen with the tuners on 22" to 25" bbls - especially compared to groups with suppressors mounted - I'm not missing using a suppressor as much as I first thought I might.

 

[Bgriff008]

Too bad the OP started out with the sneering tone about tactical this and that. Had he not insulted what is probably a majority of us who either shoot .22's suppressed or wish we could, this conversation (which is very interesting) could have been more fun. Not only are suppressed .22's a hoot to shoot alone, they make competitions just that much more fun. When an entire squad is suppressed, no one is wearing ear pro and the trash talk is even more fun. I've also been training my kids to shoot with a suppressed .22. Very nice to be able to communicate with them without the need for ear pro.

I'm in the midst of a new .22 project that's going to be running a Shilen Ratchet. Should be ready to try here in a week or so. I asked my smith to thread it 5/8"-24 rather than 1/2"-28 to try to alleviate any concerns about opening up the bore. I'll just run a reducer to get it down to 1/2"-28 so I can run one of my .22 cans on it. I've been doing that on my old Lilja barreled 40X repeater for years. Had it originally threaded 5/8-24 because all I had at the time was a centerfire can.

Lol. No one at our matches wears hearing protection shooting PRS. Just not needed. Maybe a few guys running suppressed. The rest of us are shooting unsuppressed. Not loud at all.

 

[FuhQ]

I'll stick with my "inaccurate" threaded barrels and suppressors...

Suppressed CA Ranger 22, shot a 0.438" 3-shot group @ 100 yards...



And a 1.2" 3-shot group at 200 yards...

 

[orkan]

I'll stick with my "inaccurate" threaded barrels and suppressors...

Suppressed CA Ranger 22, shot a 0.438" 3-shot group @ 100 yards...

Setup a video camera. Shoot 6 individual 5-shot groups at 50yds please. Post the unedited video. I will eagerly await that.

Show range confirmation through lrf.

 

[FuhQ]

Setup a video camera. Shoot 6 individual 5-shot groups at 50yds please. Post the unedited video. I will eagerly await that.

Show range confirmation through lrf.

Why would i shoot a scoped rifle at 50 yards? I shoot iron sight pistols at 50 & 100 yards...

I don't care if you don't believe me, I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars I don't have on equipment to appease people like you. You buy the cameras, and I'll prove it.

 

[KnowNothing256]

I mean, you almost certainly have a video camera in your pocket...

 

[FuhQ]

I mean, you almost certainly have a video camera in your pocket...

Not at the target and at the bench, and syncing them simultaneously...

That's quite a bit for cameras, stands, and good software that can do that ain't cheap...

 

[KnowNothing256]

Not at the target and at the bench, and syncing them simultaneously...

That's quite a bit for cameras, stands, and good software that can do that ain't cheap...

Just set it up by the target and press record, then go shoot. Sheesh.

Anyway, good job on your two 3-shot groups!

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Why would i shoot a scoped rifle at 50 yards? I shoot iron sight pistols at 50 & 100 yards...

I don't care if you don't believe me, I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars I don't have on equipment to appease people like you. You buy the cameras, and I'll prove it.

Don’t take offense at it, What Orkan is asking for is the standard used on this website for measuring the accuracy of a rimfire rifle. 6 groups of 5 shots done in succession at 50 yards, or more simply, the 6x5. 3 shot groups are not meaningful for statistics—— I’ve had lots of great 3 shot groups ruined by further shots. This test is a very tough self evaluation of your equipment and your technique. The camera part is not needed if you are truthful. Full details in this thread:

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/6x5-thread-v5-0-new-1-1-21.6253073/#post-6253073

My best 6x5 was shot off a one piece roller rest with a tuned Anschutz 1710 hb indoors. I have not been able to come close to those results at outdoor ARA matches with Colorado’s never ending supply of wind.

As to the op’s opening post, depends on what you are trying to do. A threaded barrel is going to be more than adequate in accuracy for most shooters. Most are not going to be benchrest shooting, MOA or better will satisfy the masses needs in almost all cases. They still make “polished blue steel and walnut” guns with non threaded barrels for all your non-tactical looky needs. If you don’t like it you don’t have to buy it, but the market has responded with threaded barrels for a reason. Somebody is buying them.

Kidd, Walther and Anschutz all backbore past threaded portion of barrel. Many other manufacturers do not. There are lots of accurate barrels from both camps. Being a machinist and working with non-stress relieved steel stock will make you a believer in the weird ways metal material will move as it is machined. However, better barrel manufacturing techniques “should” avoid this issue with proper material selection and processing of raw stock. With that said, my most consistently accurate autoloader is a kidd tapered non threaded 20” ss supergrade, and my most consistently accurate bolt action(non benchrest) is a vudoo spectre countour 18” threaded.

Notice I said consistently accurate and not just accurate, my needs for match shooting (mostly steel events) go across a large temperature variation for outdoor matches year round. My anschutz benchrest rifle is only good for about 75-85 degrees, any hotter or colder and it gets way out of tune quickly with groups opening up a lot. I’ve found that heavy tuners are more finicky to this then lighter tuners. Barrel harmonic tuning is a real rabbit hole and it is just so much easier to grab a rifle without a tuner and just shoot at any temperature with known corrections from previous dope.

 

[FuhQ]

Don’t take offense at it, What Orkan is asking for is the standard used on this website for measuring the accuracy of a rimfire rifle. 6 groups of 5 shots done in succession at 50 yards, or more simply, the 6x5. 3 shot groups are not meaningful for statistics—— I’ve had lots of great 3 shot groups ruined by further shots. This test is a very tough self evaluation of your equipment and your technique. The camera part is not needed if you are truthful. Full details in this thread:

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/6x5-thread-v5-0-new-1-1-21.6253073/#post-6253073

My best 6x5 was shot off a one piece roller rest with a tuned Anschutz 1710 hb indoors. I have not been able to come close to those results at outdoor ARA matches with Colorado’s never ending supply of wind.

As to the op’s opening post, depends on what you are trying to do. A threaded barrel is going to be more than adequate in accuracy for most shooters. Most are not going to be benchrest shooting, MOA or better will satisfy the masses needs in almost all cases. They still make “polished blue steel and walnut” guns with non threaded barrels for all your non-tactical looky needs. If you don’t like it you don’t have to buy it, but the market has responded with threaded barrels for a reason. Somebody is buying them.

Kidd, Walther and Anschutz all backbore past threaded portion of barrel. Many other manufacturers do not. There are lots of accurate barrels from both camps. Being a machinist and working with non-stress relieved steel stock will make you a believer in the weird ways metal material will move as it is machined. However, better barrel manufacturing techniques “should” avoid this issue with proper material selection and processing of raw stock. With that said, my most consistently accurate autoloader is a kidd tapered non threaded 20” ss supergrade, and my most consistently accurate bolt action(non benchrest) is a vudoo spectre countour 18” threaded.

Notice I said consistently accurate and not just accurate, my needs for match shooting (mostly steel events) go across a large temperature variation for outdoor matches year round. My anschutz benchrest rifle is only good for about 75-85 degrees, any hotter or colder and it gets way out of tune quickly with groups opening up a lot. I’ve found that heavy tuners are more finicky to this then lighter tuners. Barrel harmonic tuning is a real rabbit hole and it is just so much easier to grab a rifle without a tuner and just shoot at any temperature with known corrections from previous dope.

See, now that explanation makes more sense. I wouldn't have gotten defensive if he had just stated that was considered a "standard" somewhere. Thanks for explaining that. I've been shooting and reloading a long time, and I do always trust the 5-shot groups with my centerfires, but always at 100+, and never anything short. I always have done 3-shot groups with my .22's, but I guess I can start doing some 5-shots. I have done several sub-MOA 100 yard 10-shot groups with it, but didn't record them, as I didn't realize it was a big deal. I've always had pretty decent shooting .22LR's so I never really thought much about it. Also, I grew up shooting everything at 100 yards, even pistols and iron sights, because the range we went to when I was growing up only had a 100 yard backstop. So it became a fun challenge to try to shoot 12ga. shells at 100 with irons and .22 pistols. So, I just always started shooting everything at 100 yards minimum, and that's how I grew up. To me, anything closer seems redundant. I know to most that might seem superfluous, but now that you know a bit of my shooting backstory, it should explain why I'm a bit of a natural shooter, and why I always shoot at 100 yards minimum for anything that rests up against my shoulder.

 

[orkan]

It’s easy….

See?

 

[orkan]

Everyone is a natural until they need to replicate their performance in front of an audience.

 

[FuhQ]

Everyone is a natural until they need to replicate their performance in front of an audience.

I've shot in front of people my whole life at public ranges. It wasn't until this year I joined a private range.

 

[Yaremkiv]

This post has convinced me to finally jump on the suppressor game to supress one my threaded 10/22's. Thanks littlesister

 

[FuhQ]

This post has convinced me to finally jump on the suppressor game to supress one my threaded 10/22's. Thanks littlesister

Man, get you a Dead Air Mask HD. You'll love it. You'll never look back, and want to suppress the rest of yours. You'll start looking at people shooting unsuppressed as "savages" and "barbarians".

 

[littlesister]

I'll stick with my "inaccurate" threaded barrels and suppressors...

Suppressed CA Ranger 22, shot a 0.438" 3-shot group @ 100 yards...

View attachment 7736359

And a 1.2" 3-shot group at 200 yards...

View attachment 7736355
View attachment 7736356
View attachment 7736357
View attachment 7736358

I started the Threaded Barrels Thread to educate new shooters on the negative effect threaded barrels and suppressors can have on accuracy. I never said threaded barrels were " inaccurate". Never said suppressors were " inaccurate" It's the level of accuracy! If you're happy with .438 three shot groups, fine. Personally I'm not impressed!

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

If you're happy with .438 three shot groups, fine. Personally I'm not impressed!

I would be very happy with .438 groups at 100.

 

[FuhQ]

I started the Threaded Barrels Thread to educate new shooters on the negative effect threaded barrels and suppressors can have on accuracy. I never said threaded barrels were " inaccurate". Never said suppressors were " inaccurate" It's the level of accuracy! If you're happy with .438 three shot groups, fine. Personally I'm not impressed!

I'm curious to hear how you plan to prove that properly threaded (bore-centric) barrels have detrimental affects on accuracy. Especially with all the PRS shooters shooting suppressed rifles into tiny aggregates and winning comps with threaded and suppressed rifles... I know that's centerfire vs rimfire, but it's the same principle... Accuracy is accuracy.

 

[KnowNothing256]

I'm curious to hear how you plan to prove that properly threaded (bore-centric) barrels have detrimental affects on accuracy. Especially with all the PRS shooters shooting suppressed rifles into tiny aggregates and winning comps with threaded and suppressed rifles... I know that's centerfire vs rimfire, but it's the same principle... Accuracy is accuracy.

@RAVAGE88 You wanna take this one?

 

[FuhQ]

@RAVAGE88 You wanna take this one?

I'm not trying sound like a dick, but I've known a LOT of machinists and gunsmiths, and even did some minor machine work and spent 20 years welding and doing custom metal fabrication, and never once heard of anyone talking about detrimental effects of properly threading the OUTSIDE of a barrel causing accuracy issues.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Nah, you're fine, you want data. Mike should have some, even if he doesn't go so far as to mail you the logbooks. The group of people that you might not have talked to, based on your list there, are the gunsmiths who are pushing the limits of 22LR accuracy. That's where Mike can chime in and add some helpful experience, hopefully!

 

[Williwaw]

I'm not trying sound like a dick, but I've known a LOT of machinists and gunsmiths, and even did some minor machine work and spent 20 years welding and doing custom metal fabrication, and never once heard of anyone talking about detrimental effects of properly threading the OUTSIDE of a barrel causing accuracy issues.

Have you read post 44? What follows is not directed at FuhQ.

Knowing that the best custom benchrest barrels are slugged to ensure that they are cut to length and crowned at a tight spot I think it logical that you wouldn't do anything knowingly that opens up the muzzle. It is pretty unrealistic to expect somebody to tell you how much of an impact it would have given all of the other variables.

Anyone should feel entirely entitled to thread if they so choose but we have to accept the possibility of some loss in accuracy.

 

[FuhQ]

Nah, you're fine, you want data. Mike should have some, even if he doesn't go so far as to mail you the logbooks. The group of people that you might not have talked to, based on your list there, are the gunsmiths who are pushing the limits of 22LR accuracy. That's where Mike can chime in and add some helpful experience, hopefully!

I believe there could be, because anything is possible, I've just never seen it, nor heard of it. If it was such a controversial thing, you would figure suppressors wouldn't be as popular as they are, and people using them for LRH and precision shooting where shot-placement and group-sizes counts, would mitigate some data proving it to be detrimental. Unless yall are talking about like 0.100" difference in group sizes at 100 yards or something minuscule like that.

 

[KnowNothing256]

I believe there could be, because anything is possible, I've just never seen it, nor heard of it. If it was such a controversial thing, you would figure suppressors wouldn't be as popular as they are, and people using them for LRH and precision shooting where shot-placement and group-sizes counts, would mitigate some data proving it to be detrimental. Unless yall are talking about like 0.100" difference in group sizes at 100 yards or something minuscule like that.

I think the cutting-edge accuracy shooters in 22LR are using barrel tuners more than suppressors, and in PRS it's brakes over suppressors because they make it easier to spot misses.

I could be wrong, but those seem to me to be the norms.

 

[Williwaw]

I believe there could be, because anything is possible, I've just never seen it, nor heard of it. If it was such a controversial thing, you would figure suppressors wouldn't be as popular as they are, and people using them for LRH and precision shooting where shot-placement and group-sizes counts, would mitigate some data proving it to be detrimental. Unless yall are talking about like 0.100" difference in group sizes at 100 yards or something minuscule like that.

If I could achieve a 0.05 inch reduction in my average distance to center at 50 yards I'd be one happy camper.

 

[FuhQ]

I think the cutting-edge accuracy shooters in 22LR are using barrel tuners more than suppressors, and in PRS it's brakes over suppressors because they make it easier to spot misses.

I could be wrong, but those seem to me to be the norms.

Been reading a lot of guys swapping from brakes to suppressors, because suppressor tech has improved so much, plus, brakes blow shit everywhere beside you, and at other shooters around you, and are loud as hell. I don't know. I don't compete, just what I've been reading a lot lately.

 

[littlesister]

@RAVAGE88 You wanna take

I'm curious to hear how you plan to prove that properly threaded (bore-centric) barrels have detrimental affects on accuracy. Especially with all the PRS shooters shooting suppressed rifles into tiny aggregates and winning comps with threaded and suppressed rifles... I know that's centerfire vs rimfire, but it's the same principle... Accuracy is accuracy.

About the only similarity between centerfire and remfire is you put the bullets in the same end of the barrel!

 

[FuhQ]

@littlesister You mean, the ammo isn't made of brass, an ignition source, powder, and lead?

Odd...

 

[KnowNothing256]

@littlesister You mean, the ammo isn't made of brass, an ignition source, powder, and lead?

Odd...

Well, for one thing most centerfire ammo these days is made of brass, an ignition source, powder, and lead with a copper jacket. They also operate at vastly higher speeds and pressures, with generally vastly higher BCs and projectile uniformity.

Giving up a little ground on the “not trying to sound like a dick” stance with that post there.

 

[FuhQ]

Well, for one thing most centerfire ammo these days is made of brass, an ignition source, powder, and lead with a copper jacket. They also operate at vastly higher speeds and pressures, with generally vastly higher BCs and projectile uniformity.

Giving up a little ground on the “not trying to sound like a dick” stance with that post there.

Well, yeah... But in my defense, he/she/it that's posting isn't exactly being cooperative with the information they keep touting, either. They keep saying we're wrong, but at the same time, not giving any proof that we are wrong. They're just making extremely broad statements, like "other than the bullets going in the same end, nothing is the same". Pretty sure basic mechanics of the rifle and ammo are exactly the same... How they perform might not be, but physically they are 95% the same, other than a replaceable ignition source.

Once again, not saying anyone is right or wrong, just if you're going to make a blanket statement, and start telling everyone who dissents that they're wrong, it's best to be able to back it up with facts.

 

[6.5SH]

Well, yeah... But in my defense, he/she/it that's posting isn't exactly being cooperative with the information they keep touting, either. They keep saying we're wrong, but at the same time, not giving any proof that we are wrong.

Once again, not saying anyone is right or wrong, just if you're going to make a blanket statement, and start telling everyone who dissents that they're wrong, it's best to be able to back it up with facts.

Did you read the first page and watch the video?

 

[346ci]

I could not imagine owning a .22LR that didn't have a threaded barrel.