Barrel Tuners and Bryan Litz’s vol. 3

[category_theory]

Not sure how many folks have read Modern Adv in Long Range Shooting but it’s a great chapter on Barrel Tuners is really well done and somewhat funny / validating. The general gist being that they, being AB and Team, used a few various type of tuners one being from Cortina. It’s mentioned they worked with him directly asking “how to set and tune” the brake…. The short story however is that Tuners don’t seem to do anything! Meaning they have no statistical detectable effect on precision or accuracy when actually taking enough samples. They fired 1800 rounds w a “blind” experiment and factored in almost all effective variables they could. And nada. I’ve always thought this may be the case… and they have shown it.

Now the ONE thing they did find is that the weight of the muzzle device has a far larger effect on accuracy thank anything else… with an R^2 value of 0.63! Pretty fascinating!

Anyways I alway love it when folks have very strong “empirical” beliefs that science proves to be in correct. Now the question will be, given the data and that they, AB, tried to find correlation and did not… will folks like Erik stop selling the brakes? .

 

[Taylorbok]

There's enough tuner threads already and they always end up in a shit show

 

[category_theory]

There's enough tuner threads already and they always end up in a shit show

Fair. I did a quick search and saw most of them being about settings and methods. Don’t see anyone referring to Litz actual work though but apologies if there is one. I mean that said I do love a good shit show .

 

[cameljockey230]

The way I understand it if Bryan says they don't work and a thousand rimfire and benchrest shooters say they do work you get banned for not agreeing with Bryan who used a CZ457 for his testing.

 

[category_theory]

The way I understand it if Bryan says they don't work and a thousand rimfire and benchrest shooters say they do work you get banned for not agreeing with Bryan who used a CZ457 for his testing.

Haha yeah that sounds about right. He also used 6Gt or another PRS cartridge as well and found nothing. Though I think PRS folks are less religious…. I guess I’m curious if Erik or others have other commented on this. Given his general dismissive personality, I imagine not. Not sure about anyone else but I can’t stand listening to his podcast.

 

[cameljockey230]

He has his groupies and they sign up to worship him

 

[Tokay444]

Inb4 TimTamTuner. I see Linda is already here.

 

[category_theory]

He has his groupies and they sign up to worship him

No for sure… I want to like his content though bc he has some great people that admire and follow, Litz being one. But his interviews and lack of scientific rigor and his general on mic presence makes his interview style really hard to listen to. Example his interview w Eric Higgins. Hilarious to listen to Higgins basically question everything from scientific pov!

 

[Tokay444]

No for sure… I want to like his content though bc he has some great people that admire and follow, Litz being one. But his interviews and lack of scientific rigor and his general on mic presence makes his interview style really hard to listen to. Example his interview w Eric Higgins. Hilarious to listen to Higgins basically question everything from scientific pov!

You can’t talk about science in a toonhur thread.

 

[category_theory]

You can’t talk about science in a toonhur thread.

I feel like I’ve waded into either an inside joke of a topic or a dangerous trap that I should slowly back away from .

 

[cameljockey230]

I see your in Norcal so if you ever want to try an actual tuner on a gun that shoots better than a CZ457 let me know and we can meet up at CircleS Ranch.
This forum even though it says ELR is mainly a forum for prs shooters and retired military.
You can also do a Google search for benchrest central archives from 20+ years ago and get all the answers your looking for without the drama.

 

[category_theory]

I see your in Norcal so if you ever want to try an actual tuner on a gun that shoots better than a CZ457 let me know and we can meet up at CircleS Ranch.
This forum even though it says ELR is mainly a forum for prs shooters and retired military.
You can also do a Google search for benchrest central archives from 20+ years ago and get all the answers your looking for without the drama.

Haha appreciate it sir! I was meaning to head to the Nov URSA match but it got cancelled. I’m going to try to get to the Dec one if you’re there. And honestly I was more interested in the science and folks thoughts around the findings and if it’s shifted people’s minds….

 

[Tokay444]

Toonhurs only work on good guns.

 

[Tokay444]

Haha appreciate it sir! I was meaning to head to the Nov URSA match but it got cancelled. I’m going to try to get to the Dec one if you’re there. And honestly I was more interested in the science and folks thoughts around the findings and if it’s shifted people’s minds….

It hasn’t. They’re still religious zealots.

 

[cameljockey230]

We canceled November's match due to rain but we have the 3rd sunday in December scheduled if the weather holds.
We can discuss everything tuner you ever wanted to know but one trip to the range with you shooting the groups will give you firsthand facts without the bravado.

 

[RickyRacer87]

Well If you want to believe that tuners don't work that's not a bad thing.... Especially for those of us that are using them... LOL

 

[Tokay444]

See?

 

[cameljockey230]

RickyRacer87
The best thing about shooting a tuner for yourself is it allows you to pick out who needs to be on your ignore list

 

[category_theory]

We canceled November's match due to rain but we have the 3rd sunday in December scheduled if the weather holds.
We can discuss everything tuner you ever wanted to know but one trip to the range with you shooting the groups will give you firsthand facts without the bravado.

Awesome! Thanks man! Not sure I’m in town that weekend but if I am I’ll be there! And yeah I spoke w Lynn about the match. Rained a ton that weekend!

 

[Tokay444]

That is Lynn.

 

[category_theory]

That is Lynn.

Oh haha! I spoke to you @cameljockey230 via email! .

 

[Tokay444]

Get ready to throw science to the wind and worship at the alter of the toonhur.

 

[category_theory]

Sorry didn’t mean stir anything up. Just curious how the community was receiving the results of Litz’s research, esp regarding something as old and used as tuners…. Either way thanks yall! And hopefully I’ll see you @cameljockey230 in a few weeks. Cheers!

 

[lash]

Hahaha! You didn’t mean to stir anything up? For reals? Good one! Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[cameljockey230]

The shooting community 25 years ago didn't like the idea of tuners until they actually used them.
Back then we all shot 6BR's and 6 Dashers.
On a forum like this one the 6BR and 6 Dasher didn't get used until a few prs shooters gave it a try now everyone swears by it.
In another 15 years these guys will all be high fiving themselves about how they reinvented the wheel by using a tuner.
Change is hard for those without a eagerness for advancement.

 

[Tokay444]

Science is harder apparently.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

… will folks like Erik stop selling the brakes? .

Regardless if they work or not, the only way anyone will stop selling them is if it stops being profitable. And they shouldn't stop selling them if people are buying them.

There's plenty of data out there for and against them. Use your own judgment as to which data you feel is more useful and use a tuner or don't. Neither side is going to overwhelmingly change their opinion.

 

[clefairy]

They are best friends

 

[cameljockey230]

Water soaked powder charge

Water soaked powder charge in 6mm-284 Several years ago, a charge of H4350 was soaked under water overnight. Next day the charge was dried quickly with several paper towels to get surface water off then arranged in a semicircle on the patio concrete floor. An equal amount of dry powder...

benchrest.com

I don't understand why Bryan doesn't know about benchrest when he posted on the forum for years and was told how everything worked?

Keeping gun in tune.

6ppc using v 133 powder. Is it just humidity or is humidity & temp that affect tune? When the Humidity goes down I go up on the powder to keep my gun in tune? Is it that the powder kernals weigh less with lower humidity so I have to go up on the charge? Is it that the conditions change the...

benchrest.com

For those that don't know Bryan posts as bsi135 and this is a 15 year old thread.

 

[category_theory]

Water soaked powder charge

Water soaked powder charge in 6mm-284 Several years ago, a charge of H4350 was soaked under water overnight. Next day the charge was dried quickly with several paper towels to get surface water off then arranged in a semicircle on the patio concrete floor. An equal amount of dry powder...

benchrest.com

I don't understand why Bryan doesn't know about benchrest when he posted on the forum for years and was told how everything worked?

Keeping gun in tune.

6ppc using v 133 powder. Is it just humidity or is humidity & temp that affect tune? When the Humidity goes down I go up on the powder to keep my gun in tune? Is it that the powder kernals weigh less with lower humidity so I have to go up on the charge? Is it that the conditions change the...

benchrest.com

For those that don't know Bryan posts as bsi135 and this is a 15 year old thread.

This is a personal favorite from those threads…

“
Those Higgs Bosun Particle Blues

All of the distinguished contributors above are doing an excellent job of explaining the practical aspects of tuning a rifle both with tuners and powder charges. They forget to mention the basic reason that changes in gun tune occur. Here in a nutshell is why: The Higgs Bosun particle is the theorized particle that transforms the energy in atoms into mass which makes the solar system, air, stainless steel, gunpowder, beer and us. It is the creator of life and as such has been nicknamed the "god particle"…….”

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

LOL. The best part about that thread is that Tim has been saying for over 15 years that he can tune 100+ fps ES to have the same POI at 1000yds.

But still can't get a contract or sell a product.

 

[cameljockey230]

One of the physicist working on the Higgs Bosun is an avid 22 rimfire benchrest shooter and a pretty nice guy.
HBC is Henry "The Bullet God" Childs and Jim Borden is the action maker out of Pennsylvania.

 

[category_theory]

One of the physicist working on the Higgs Bosun is an avid 22 rimfire benchrest shooter and a pretty nice guy.
HBC is Henry "The Bullet God" Childs and Jim Borden is the action maker out of Pennsylvania.

Oh no shit! That’s amazing! A lot of my staff and team are former physicists. I was a physics major before switching over to pure maths and computational neuro. Either way I do enjoy nerds that like to shoot and engineer stuff

 

[cameljockey230]

Henry and Jim are both engineers

 

[timintx]

LOL. The best part about that thread is that Tim has been saying for over 15 years that he can tune 100+ fps ES to have the same POI at 1000yds.

But still can't get a contract or sell a product.

No sir , not true . What I have said is that tune or groups will not change with a given window of 200 fps . Look at the video 1:40 and you might get it right . Never said all velocities hit the same height . Get your facts straight .

 

[timintx]

You know I just have to giggle at tokay and Rio . You guys are arguing something you still do not understand . One thing you will learn eventually is that your arguing against the truth . . Once this is out longer and more people try it which is happening as we speak then you are going to realize you have been waisting your time trying to feel superior rather than learning .

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I like what Bryan Zolnikov is doing for testing as well. I think it gets a little closer to the 'full science man test' that would be more convincing. I find his results and tuning method using pressure vice temp to be interesting - even more so since it seems to repeat. I don't think there are enough groups to be definitive, but it's the closest I've seen besides the Litz test and the binder in my reloading closet...

 

[category_theory]

I like what Bryan Zolnikov is doing for testing as well. I think it gets a little closer to the 'full science man test' that would be more convincing. I find his results and tuning method using pressure vice temp to be interesting - even more so since it seems to repeat. I don't think there are enough groups to be definitive, but it's the closest I've seen besides the Litz test and the binder in my reloading closet...

Any reference material you’d recommend? I’m not familiar with him but I eat up anything science and long range related!

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Any reference material you’d recommend? I’m not familiar with him but I eat up anything science and long range related!

Search his name on YouTube. He has released a few tuner test videos with different brands of tuner on a 6ppc.

It’s not “science”, but IMHO it’s some of the better tuner testing that’s been done recently.

 

[6.5SH]

Any reference material you’d recommend? I’m not familiar with him but I eat up anything science and long range related!

https://www.youtube.com/@WitchDoctorPrecision/videos

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

His videos are very good. Much better testing than you'll see most anywhere else.

His tuner results vary greatly from how most who sell tuners present their products through claims and instruction.

 

[category_theory]

His videos are very good. Much better testing than you'll see most anywhere else.

His tuner results vary greatly from how most who sell tuners present their products through claims and instruction.

I love it and I’ll check it out! I think what he probably and I know Bryan address that I’ve noticed within the shooting community is the “lack” of good statistical sets of data to draw conclusions from. The issue that WE all face is that there are a TON of external factors in this hobby, let alone the temporal and material effects of shooting thousands of rounds through a barrel and the inherent changes that that alone causes…. And being able to draw conclusions… not to mention we literally model the internal ballistics as a bomb in most models! Having the resources alone to be able to get to statistical significance is near impossible for the layman…. So a lot boils down to the anecdotal… thus I believe is where all the “argument” stems from. All that said IF you had the budget and systems and process to actually test this, Litz is getting pretty god damn close to ideal, more so than anything else I’ve read OR the “oh just use one and you’ll see!” retort. Which as a scientist im not willing to accept. My perception is flawed, my maths and stats is not . Anyway… thank you.

 

[Tokay444]

You know I just have to giggle at tokay and Rio . You guys are arguing something you still do not understand . One thing you will learn eventually is that your arguing against the truth . . Once this is out longer and more people try it which is happening as we speak then you are going to realize you have been waisting your time trying to feel superior rather than learning .

The "Truth" as you put it, shouldn't have such a difficult time being proven.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I think what he probably and I know Bryan address that I’ve noticed within the shooting community is the “lack” of good statistical sets of data to draw conclusions from ... Which as a scientist im not willing to accept. My perception is flawed, my maths and stats is not

You're going to be disappointed trying to find much statistical rigor. If you do, pass it my way. The more I shoot, the more I think the hornaday guys were right with their large sample drum beating.

 

[timintx]

The "Truth" as you put it, shouldn't have such a difficult time being proven.

If you are speaking of positive compensation I have proved it many times and it was simple . Your the one saying it has not been proven , just because you have not seen the testing , as far as tuners go , watch the video and do your own testing , everybody else is testing . These methods are the most basic of tuning . I am going to guess you just use box ammo .

 

[Tokay444]

If you are speaking of positive compensation I have proved it many times and it was simple . Your the one saying it has not been proven , just because you have not seen the testing , as far as tuners go , watch the video and do your own testing , everybody else is testing . These methods are the most basic of tuning . I am going to guess you just use box ammo .

You're*
Not unless I'm taking someone new to the range and they're shooting my loaner gun.

 

[category_theory]

You're going to be disappointed trying to find much statistical rigor. If you do, pass it my way. The more I shoot, the more I think the hornaday guys were right with their large sample drum beating.

Haha will do…. And I think you’re right . The irony in part though, is a lot of other folks into this hobby also come from engineering, math, science backgrounds as well…. Yet the number of uncontrollable or unseen variables is just really high given the cost constraints….

 

[category_theory]

If you are speaking of positive compensation I have proved it many times and it was simple . Your the one saying it has not been proven , just because you have not seen the testing , as far as tuners go , watch the video and do your own testing , everybody else is testing . These methods are the most basic of tuning . I am going to guess you just use box ammo .

Not that I’m trying to get in the middle of this but I think the point is that normal folks say they are testing but in reality they can’t… or don’t because it’s not cost effective to do so and you need to control for a lot of things. Even Bryan’s work points this out. You see evidence for an optimal position, but in the larger samples it washes out. That’s not to say there isn’t anything there but it’s probably very small and other effects will dominate first. The interesting thing they find though is that putting ANY weight on the end of the barrel seems to have a positive effect and correlates w increasing the weight…. W an r^2 of 0.63 I believe.

Anyway this is both “hard” to prove for the reasons above, but folks tend to think it’s “easy” and they should “just do it” because they think they’ve “proven” it…. When in fact you’re probably seeing noise in small samples and or larger effects that you’re not accounting for… or blaming the “shooter” as it tends to be in my case .

Anyway I think this is a very interesting topic and I love the debate.

“Science is easy in theory but rarely so in practice…. And science isn’t science if it’s only theory.” At that point it’s just maths.

 

[timintx]

I Understand what your saying and do agree but I am different from a normal shooter as I have done internal ballistics studies as well as tuners for 20 years or so , and do large shot samples no matter what anyone thinks . I am only giving my data to help shooters learn how to use a tuner . Citing the function , weight and position on ladder tests as a way to adjust them . There are many ways to adjust them and tune a gun . I am just citing one way . And it does NOT wash out when large samples are done .

 

[category_theory]

I Understand what your saying and do agree but I am different from a normal shooter as I have done internal ballistics studies as well as tuners for 20 years or so , and do large shot samples no matter what anyone thinks . I am only giving my data to help shooters learn how to use a tuner . Citing the function , weight and position on ladder tests as on way to adjust them . There are many ways to adjust them snd tune a gun . I am just citing one way . And it does NOT wash out when large samples are done .

Oh awesome! Do you have anything written up?