Bartlein/gunsmithing Question

[DTF370]

Hey guys,

I have a potential issue with a Bartlein barrel And/or gunsmith but I may be overthinking things. I thought I would see what you guys think. **NOTE: this thread is NOT intended to bash Bartlein or my local gunsmith.**

I recently acquired a Defiance action and a Bartlein carbon fiber blank. I took both of those items to a local and reputable gunsmith who only builds precision rifles. I dropped off my items and had them chamber the blank in 6.5 SAUM, thread the muzzle, and install the barrel. When the project was completed, I spoke to the business, and they said the barrel gave them issues. Specifically they said the barrel was the most crooked barrel they’ve ever handled. By crooked, I took it as it had significant runout. The shop owner told a close friend of mine that my rifle may have accuracy issues and if the shooter (meaning me) is a good shooter he will possibly not be pleased.

My concern was whether or not I would have accuracy issues due to the potential problem. I was told to just shoot it and see how it does.

Am I wrong for thinking that my gunsmith should have stopped the project as soon as they believed the barrel had a significant amount of runout? My worry is Bartlein will blame the gunsmith, and the gunsmith will blame Bartlein, and here I will be stuck in the middle. Any advice here guys?

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

InB4 "But does it shoot?"

Am I wrong for thinking that my gunsmith should have stopped the project as soon as they believed the barrel had a significant amount of runout?

If your intel is reliable, I'd be thinking very long about ever using that guy again.

 

[DTF370]

InB4 "But does it shoot?"



If your intel is reliable, I'd be thinking very long about ever using that guy again.

That has been in the back of my mind, that’s for sure. This outfit does make some outstanding rifles, and I have shot many of them. They certainly have some credibility, but this makes me question the decision making.

 

[Edds]

Am I wrong for thinking that my gunsmith should have stopped the project as soon as they believed the barrel had a significant amount of runout?

If it was my rifle, I would ask the Gunsmith why he didn’t.

 

[_Windrider_]

I don’t think @Frank Green would ever let a crooked barrel leave his shop.

 

[Ckleeves]

What’s done is done, I’m not sure if you have any other option but to see how it shoots. I would think you would have a pretty good case for warranty if it doesn’t, excessive runout in the blank shouldn’t really fall on the smith.

If that does end up being the case I would however expect a free chamber job on the new one if he chambered a blank he wasn’t sure about.

That being said the first Proof I ever bought looked like a banana and it shot absolutely lights out. Have had some extremely straight barrels that weren’t as accurate so I’m not sure if it’s the end all be all when it comes to a accurate barrel.

 

[4O6shootist]

Crooked barrels shoot fine. Check run out at Chamber end to muzzle and and time the muzzle runout to 12 o'clock. Its like a free 2 moa rail! Just a joke. My friend and I took a chance on some left over carbon barrels from Montana Rifle Co that we acquired for cheap. We built a rifle for his lady, 65prc on a tl3. Smith said it was the most crooked barrel ever by far. Timed the muzzle runout at high side. It shoots just fine!

 

[DTF370]

I don’t think @Frank Green would ever let a crooked barrel leave his shop.

This was my thought as well, however I know that nobody is immune to mistakes. Things happen.

 

[DTF370]

Crooked barrels shoot fine. Check run out at Chamber end to muzzle and and time the muzzle runout to 12 o'clock. Its like a free 2 moa rail! Just a joke. My friend and I took a chance on some left over carbon barrels from Montana Rifle Co that we acquired for cheap. We built a rifle for his lady, 65prc on a tl3. Smith said it was the most crooked barrel ever by far. Timed the muzzle runout at high side. It shoots just fine!

This is comforting. Consensus says to just shoot it and see what happens, which probably is my only real option at this point. Hopefully this thing will be a hammer and I am just simply overthinking this issue.

 

[Frank Green]

I'd shoot it first.

I love it when guys call up and say a barrel is crooked or has run out? First question I ask is how are you setting it up and or how are you measuring/checking it?

As to has been pointed out in a previous post above....

If the gunsmith/shop thought it was that bad they should've called the customer and give him the option as what he wants to do and or call us. I can totally understand being in the middle of the set up and not wanting to stop etc...but I think that is the better option before possibly making the situation worse that cannot be corrected and finger pointing starts and possibly in the end....the end customer eats it.

If you have problems...give me a call!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

P.S. as a examples....had a customer (he's here on the forums I won't use names or the shops name that did the work etc...). Anyways he orders a action and a barrel. Think all thru the shop. He told them he wanted a Bartlein. He gets the finished work and gun won't chamber ammo properly. Calls up the shop and explains the problem. Shop makes him send it back and dings him $$$$ to touch up the chamber etc...customer gets it back...a little better but still the same issues. Customer reaches out to us because it's our barrel and has cold feet on sending it back to the shop and ask if we could help. I said send it in. It gets here and two problems instantly that we see. When I talked to the customer on the phone I asked if he was sitting down because this wasn't going to be good. He said o.k.? One the reamer or reamers the shop used didn't cut any throat/freebore at all. I/we can run a reamer into the barrel and clean up the throat and most likely not effect headspace but....it's not our barrel! (I know to the OP that started this thread this isn't the case with you). I told the customer will clean up the throat and see what happens if it's o.k. with him. He said go for it. So we ran a reamer into it....only cut the throat area of the chamber. Reinstalled the barrel and cycled live rounds with out issue. Sent it back to him no charge. He called me up and said he didn't know how to thank us. He said the gun shoots about .75moa to 1moa and he can live with it as it's a hunting rifle but also said it's totally reliable now.

I've also tried to help other customers when and where we can. Had another guy recently call up and said the gun wouldn't shoot good and had extraction issues (it's a bolt gun). Sent it in. Yep our barrel but the work the shop did during chambering....tore the chamber and wrecked the throat as well. Was it bad gunsmithing? Or a bad chamber reamer used (it was the customers reamer) I told him in that case....we couldn't save the barrel at all. It was junk and the guy only had a little over a 100 rounds on it. I told him I would help out with the barrel costs some and we would do the work but I wasn't using his once used reamer. We would use our reamer. All turned out good in the end.

 

[DTF370]

…If the gunsmith/shop thought it was that bad they should've called the customer and give him the option as what he wants to do and or call us.

If you have problems...give me a call!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Thank you Frank. That’s exactly why I bought the barrel that I bought.

I do agree, I wish they would have given me a call before they did the work. But what’s done is done, maybe it’s all moot I am on my way to get it now, I will start shooting it next week.

 

[NBPRP]

This is kind of an example of the beauty and/or reality of life.

1) So you get a Bartlein barrel which is custom made and at or very near the top of the list for quality barrels. At that point it was pristine and the best it was ever going to be.

2) You send said barrel to your favorite gunsmith.

3) At gunsmith said barrel gets manhandled by a day worker coming to work Monday morning nursing a hangover or Friday afternoon when said worker is only thinking about punching the clock and tripping the 'Light Fantastic' over the weekend.

4) Said worker grabs a reamer and chucks it up on a drill press as the only lathe in the shop is being used by the owner to finish a non-gunsmith job like cleaning up a drive axel for his kids ATV so worker tries to ream it with drill press.

5) Being in a rush/not caring or waiting for the effects of the hangover to lessen, said worker is not capable of completing the task as specified by the gunsmith.

6) Said gunsmith, being overworked and understaffed, doesn't take the time to double check the specs. on work performed by said worker.

7) The whole 'Shabang' gets sent back to you.

8) On arrival and inspection it is noted the workmanship is uglier than a mud fence.

9) You are perplexed and down trodden at the specter of your once Pristine Bartlein Barrel no longer being the Princess of the Ball and instead being relegated to being a simple wall flower.

Now that I vented, will give a suggestion. Shoot the thing and if does not perform to you expectations, get back in touch with the gunsmith and reiterate what was said about barrel before they started working on it and ask why they still continued on. This should be done in letter form and not over the phone or e-mail. If you sense you might get some push back from the smith send the letter Certified Return Receipt. That way they can't dodge your calls or say they never got/read your e-mails.

If things start to get ugly and the smith washes his hands of the matter Frank may have to bail you out. Should you call upon Frank to do so, he would be doing you ONE HELL of a favor and profuse and frequent public thanks would be in order .

Don't know of any other barrel maker that would go that far but then again Frank is from America's Dairyland.

 

[kthomas]

Pretty bizarre that the gunsmith felt he had quality issues with the products he was working with and was going to put his name on, yet did nothing to rectify said "issues".

I would avoid this gunsmith in the future.

 

[4O6shootist]

Shady for the smith to give a poor expectation to rifle performance to a random individual, and not to the customer. I'd steer clear of that guy.

 

[Frank Green]

Don't know of any other barrel maker that would go that far but then again Frank is from America's Dairyland.

Never worked on a farm! I wish we had a different name on our plates than “Americas Dairyland” I guess it could be worse!

 

[NBPRP]

Never worked on a farm! I wish we had a different name on our plates than “Americas Dairyland” I guess it could be worse!

I have not 'actively' worked on a farm either, other than to help out on a weekend or two on a classmates family farm when in college. That was a long time ago but I still remember their strong commitment to an honest work ethic and family values that is still found in some Upper Mid-West communities and companies. Nice to see those enduring qualities still remain and are being practiced at Bartlein.

Maybe above your door Frank, you could put up a sign that says something like 'In Americas Dairyland We're the Cream of the Crop'.

What say you?

 

[Rubicon Precision]

A couple years back, I had a customer supplied CF wrapped blank (NOT Bartlein) that I ran out of adjustment in my setup before I could get the throat dialed in. With the muzzle and breech ends of the bore running dead nuts, there was more than .015” of runout 3.5” into the bore. Not one and a half thousandths, fifteen.

I let the customer know, and told him that if it was my personal barrel, I wouldn’t risk it. He sent it back and they replaced it. Next one was good, as usual.

My opinion is, if there was enough concern to bring it up after the work was done, especially if there was enough concern to talk behind the customers back about potential accuracy issues, it should have been brought up before and options given.

That said, runout is relative to something. Depending on what it is compared to, it may be a non issue.

 

[Dolomite]

I had a different experience, I was getting pressure issues and couldn’t figure it out. Tried everything from changing my reloads to different cleaning methods. I’m just a beginner so I called the Bugholes and sent pics of the brass and bolt face. Greg recommended a different cleaning method and said if that didn’t work send the barrel back. I also posted questions on multiple forums but i didn’t name the smith as he was willing to check the barrel and chamber job if I couldn’t get reduce of the pressure. spoke to the Greg several times as he honestly tried to help me. Then I got a message from Mark at Bartlien to my surprise and spoke to him on the phone. He did suggest I try different loads and cleaning methods. Long story short it was a problem with the bolt. After contacting the receiver mfg and sending in the bolt he exchanged it free of charge. bam pressure signs gone!!! Both the Bugholes and Bartlien staff put in the extra effort to help me resolve the problem. Real stand up guys!!! I think the best thing to do is always contact the smith and barrel makers. It’s really hard to diagnose over the phone but they all tried to help!! Stand up guys in my book!!! Bugholes and Bartlien have a customer for life!!! I’m even recommending them to the guys I shoot with. Best customer service speaks volumes.

 

[Cfshooter]

I had a different experience, I was getting pressure issues and couldn’t figure it out. Tried everything from changing my reloads to different cleaning methods. I’m just a beginner so I called the Bugholes and sent pics of the brass and bolt face. Greg recommended a different cleaning method and said if that didn’t work send the barrel back. I also posted questions on multiple forums but i didn’t name the smith as he was willing to check the barrel and chamber job if I couldn’t get reduce of the pressure. spoke to the Greg several times as he honestly tried to help me. Then I got a message from Mark at Bartlien to my surprise and spoke to him on the phone. He did suggest I try different loads and cleaning methods. Long story short it was a problem with the bolt. After contacting the receiver mfg and sending in the bolt he exchanged it free of charge. bam pressure signs gone!!! Both the Bugholes and Bartlien staff put in the extra effort to help me resolve the problem. Real stand up guys!!! I think the best thing to do is always contact the smith and barrel makers. It’s really hard to diagnose over the phone but they all tried to help!! Stand up guys in my book!!! Bugholes and Bartlien have a customer for life!!! I’m even recommending them to the guys I shoot with. Best customer service speaks volumes.

Honest question, how did the bolt cause pressure issues?

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

This is kind of an example of the beauty and/or reality of life.

1) So you get a Bartlein barrel which is custom made and at or very near the top of the list for quality barrels. At that point it was pristine and the best it was ever going to be.

2) You send said barrel to your favorite gunsmith.

3) At gunsmith said barrel gets manhandled by a day worker coming to work Monday morning nursing a hangover or Friday afternoon when said worker is only thinking about punching the clock and tripping the 'Light Fantastic' over the weekend.

4) Said worker grabs a reamer and chucks it up on a drill press as the only lathe in the shop is being used by the owner to finish a non-gunsmith job like cleaning up a drive axel for his kids ATV so worker tries to ream it with drill press.

5) Being in a rush/not caring or waiting for the effects of the hangover to lessen, said worker is not capable of completing the task as specified by the gunsmith.

6) Said gunsmith, being overworked and understaffed, doesn't take the time to double check the specs. on work performed by said worker.

7) The whole 'Shabang' gets sent back to you.

8) On arrival and inspection it is noted the workmanship is uglier than a mud fence.


If things start to get ugly and the smith washes his hands of the matter Frank may have to bail you out. Should you call upon Frank to do so, he would be doing you ONE HELL of a favor and profuse and frequent public thanks would be in order .

Don't know of any other barrel maker that would go that far but then again Frank is from America's Dairyland.

Completely unrelated yet totally related. I don’t build guns, I build bicycles. I depend on the local bike shops for parts when I can.

Walked into a local shop (no longer in business) one bright Saturday morning. A young fellow I did not recognize was behind the shop counter. Trying to assemble a sprocket set on a hub. (Not rocket science as the sprockets are all marked and have an indexed spline, can only go on one way). He can’t figure it out. I explain and show him the one spline that is smaller than the rest and the one slot on each sprocket that is smaller than the rest). Again, this is nto rocket science. He gets it together, grabs a wrench, tightens on it some and asks me if it is tight enough. I ask if it meets torque specs. (40 ft lbs on the sprocket nut is the general rule but I always check). Figuring this is a teaching moment, I ask (again) if he knows the torque specs. He looks at me if I just landed from the planet Venus and have three eyes and four arms and orange and green skin. He turns away. A bit later I am still in the shop and the customer walks in and asks if the the wheel is ready. Young fellow says, sure is, hands him the wheel and takes the dollars.

Now this is a part, that is held in place by the skewer so its not going to fall apart while the bike is being ridden. However, what bothers me, is he going to be working on carbon frames without a clue about torque specs. Carbon frames are eyewatering expensive and one small crack and they are pretty much toast. And, when bikes carbon framed or other, fall apart due to not being properly assembled, usually means lots of blood on the pavement.

Never went back to that shop again. (I wanted rim tape and they said they use electrical tape) what a total mess.

My point. Our nation needs Frank, our nation does not need folks who do shoddy work for whatever reason. Our economy and our nation deserves better.

 

[Dolomite]

Honest question, how did the bolt cause pressure issues?

The action mfg told me it was out of spec. Didn’t say what was out of spec, but if I had to GUESS it was the bolt face.

 

[AllenOne1]

I had a different experience, I was getting pressure issues and couldn’t figure it out. Tried everything from changing my reloads to different cleaning methods. I’m just a beginner so I called the Bugholes and sent pics of the brass and bolt face. Greg recommended a different cleaning method and said if that didn’t work send the barrel back. I also posted questions on multiple forums but i didn’t name the smith as he was willing to check the barrel and chamber job if I couldn’t get reduce of the pressure. spoke to the Greg several times as he honestly tried to help me. Then I got a message from Mark at Bartlien to my surprise and spoke to him on the phone. He did suggest I try different loads and cleaning methods. Long story short it was a problem with the bolt. After contacting the receiver mfg and sending in the bolt he exchanged it free of charge. bam pressure signs gone!!! Both the Bugholes and Bartlien staff put in the extra effort to help me resolve the problem. Real stand up guys!!! I think the best thing to do is always contact the smith and barrel makers. It’s really hard to diagnose over the phone but they all tried to help!! Stand up guys in my book!!! Bugholes and Bartlien have a customer for life!!! I’m even recommending them to the guys I shoot with. Best customer service speaks volumes.

Was this a gas gun or a bolt action?

 

[Dolomite]

Was this a gas gun or a bolt action?

Bolt gun from what I think is a higher end mfg.