You would be wrong. They're still in service, but they have the new battery compartments (which probably means they're "broken" to some).
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Battle Rifle Optic Choice??? GO...
- Thread starter the_dude8541
- Start date
You would be wrong. They're still in service, but they have the new battery compartments (which probably means they're "broken" to some).
All true.
As I said.... I am relating anecdotal evidence. Its not proof of anything specifically. Anecdotal evidence never is.
What I find far more persuasive is that despite the naysayers, knowledgeable people are still dropping hard earned cash on the EOTech. In droves.
Very true sir. Like I said before, I don't think they're bad optics; they're just not my first choice anymore. Some people buy them and they keep chugging along, while some people buy them and they fall apart. I'm sure the models that use the single CR123 batteries probably don't have the battery compartment issue that the other models do (and they're lighter and more compact to boot).
I think it all comes down to the "To each his own" idea (Or "One man's trash is another man's treasure" when it comes to EOTechs, apparently
). The EOTech vs. Aimpoint argument has been going on for a long time and will probably continue until the end of time. I make my choice of optic based off of a combination of personal experience, research, features & cost, pros and cons, and how the rifle will be employed. Ultimately, that is what the OP will have to do to make his choice of an optic for his battle rifle. He'll probably be happy regardless of whether he chooses an EOTech or an Aimpoint. The good thing is they hold their value fairly well. I flipped my EOTech just recently for $30 less than what I paid for it. If he buys something and doesn't like it, he can sell it and try something else.
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I think it all comes down to the "To each his own" idea (Or "One man's trash is another man's treasure" when it comes to EOTechs, apparently
Well said. I agree.
Prolly the more signficant point for the OP is that one optic really can't be expected to work well for home defense AND for 3-gun. They are very different disciplines.
3-gun usually combines a low power scope for out to 300yds, and a smallish red dot on an angled mount, for near shots. Self defense firearms really are prolly best equipped with iron sights that don't obscure much of your FoV, equipped with nite sights, don't have battereies to fail, and require minimal user inputs.
The average schmo (me and 98% of all gun owners) really need to apply the KISS principle for self defense guns. Whcih is very different than 3-gun.
Not only that, but he might consider choosing a different weapon if he has children in his home. Unloading 30 rnds of 5.56 in your house is a recipe for disaster if the backdrop to your assailant is the wall that divides your room from your 3 year-old daughter's bedroom.
Buy a good sidearm with nightsights or a shotgun for home defense (with a weapons light for either one), and build up a nice AR with a 1-6x optic and an offset reflex sight for 3-gun like you stated above. Problem solved.
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Yeah, go ahead and PM me those serial numbers and I will see if I can find someone with access to say if those specific EOTs were coded out or not.
Most of the problems we have had with these units is in the battery compartment. Even the newer SOPMOD battery compartments were still crap although I think the new ones with the CR-123 batteries may work out better. Haven't messed with any of those myself though.
You say anecdotal at best or BS at worst. That is fine. I know it isn't either. The 88% failure rate is on items that were in heavy use for a long time but was much higher than it's competitor (ACOG). Certainly they endured much harder use than the average 3-gun rifle or safe queen by a long shot. That said, nobody in this line of work just throws their gear around, especially not optics, electronics, body armor, or weapons that your life and mission success may depend on. We may drop a rucksack or even a helmet once in a while but no big deal.
EOTechs are not a reliable enough combat optic in my eyes even though some disagree. If they survive an indefinite amount of time when treated with kid gloves, great. Seems that plenty of people who take great care in not marring the finishes of their personally procured toys still have failures though. If they ever get the reliability issues figured out I think they would be a great CQB sight. Until then, I stand by my determination not to use them as a combat optic for me to trust my life to.
And no, I am not a couch commando who considers the dream of killing zombies as combat....
I support your decision. Mostly, cuz it reduces demand for EOTech's, which keeps the price lower for me.
Lets see... The last time I took a training course we had a total of 5 in the class:
1x EoTurd that would not track when sighting in
2x EoTurds that wouldn't stay on
These individuals got loaner Aimpoints and life went on.
Another individual had a unit with loose internals and a wandering zero. It would also eat batteries every couple hours. It was department issued shit on a department issued rifle and so it remained for the duration.
1/5 worked without major issue.
If SUPERACRONYM 6.5 decided that blowing goats was a key to their success, they'd probably get a very loud following slinging the virtues of sucking off goats. Some folks at the proverbial tip do indeed use EoTurds, however their real world limitations are well known and they are used for specific reasons. Steadfast support for a product simply based on XYZ5 using it, without understanding how/why they use it, generally makes people look fairly ignorant.
The Truth: I've personally seen Aimpoints AND EoTechs fail. The difference - An EoTech has failed at every single carbine course I've ever attended. Aimpoints, which generally outnumber EoTechs AT LEAST 3:1 at these courses, do not. In fact, an Aimpoint breaking is the exception rather than the rule.
Some of the folks I know are each responsible for 20-40 Aimpoints within their organizations. Some of these individuals also supervise millions of rounds into their backstops during training events - often involving a variety of optics - each year. There isn't a one of them who would recommend an EoTech, and their reasoning exactly mirrors my personal experiences.
Regarding the OP's question: I'm personally uncomfortable with a red dot out past 100yd, but this is probably due to the fact that I rarely practice with one out that far. I understand that the 4MOA(3.4MOA Actual?) Aimpoint dot does indeed match the mechanical accuracy of a Mil-Spec gun with Mil-Spec ammo, and that vertical POI shift on an AR with 50yd zero should be roughly 2.7" low at the muzzle to roughly 2" high at ~120-150yd and back down to around 2.8" low at 300yd. Within 3" from muzzle to 300yd SHOULD work.
That said, magnified optics help you SEE better. I am looking very hard at picking up a 1-6ish from Bushnell, SWFA or Vortex to goof around with to see if I can warm up to them. I love what I'm seeing from USO, and I truly believe they have shit really figured out, but their price range is entirely out of my budget for something I may not be able to work with.
1x EoTurd that would not track when sighting in
2x EoTurds that wouldn't stay on
These individuals got loaner Aimpoints and life went on.
Another individual had a unit with loose internals and a wandering zero. It would also eat batteries every couple hours. It was department issued shit on a department issued rifle and so it remained for the duration.
1/5 worked without major issue.
If SUPERACRONYM 6.5 decided that blowing goats was a key to their success, they'd probably get a very loud following slinging the virtues of sucking off goats. Some folks at the proverbial tip do indeed use EoTurds, however their real world limitations are well known and they are used for specific reasons. Steadfast support for a product simply based on XYZ5 using it, without understanding how/why they use it, generally makes people look fairly ignorant.
The Truth: I've personally seen Aimpoints AND EoTechs fail. The difference - An EoTech has failed at every single carbine course I've ever attended. Aimpoints, which generally outnumber EoTechs AT LEAST 3:1 at these courses, do not. In fact, an Aimpoint breaking is the exception rather than the rule.
Some of the folks I know are each responsible for 20-40 Aimpoints within their organizations. Some of these individuals also supervise millions of rounds into their backstops during training events - often involving a variety of optics - each year. There isn't a one of them who would recommend an EoTech, and their reasoning exactly mirrors my personal experiences.
Regarding the OP's question: I'm personally uncomfortable with a red dot out past 100yd, but this is probably due to the fact that I rarely practice with one out that far. I understand that the 4MOA(3.4MOA Actual?) Aimpoint dot does indeed match the mechanical accuracy of a Mil-Spec gun with Mil-Spec ammo, and that vertical POI shift on an AR with 50yd zero should be roughly 2.7" low at the muzzle to roughly 2" high at ~120-150yd and back down to around 2.8" low at 300yd. Within 3" from muzzle to 300yd SHOULD work.
That said, magnified optics help you SEE better. I am looking very hard at picking up a 1-6ish from Bushnell, SWFA or Vortex to goof around with to see if I can warm up to them. I love what I'm seeing from USO, and I truly believe they have shit really figured out, but their price range is entirely out of my budget for something I may not be able to work with.
I first bought the Burris 1-4 mtac. it was awesome for out to about 2 or 300 yards but in low light, the circle reticles got in the way. just swapped to the Leupold vx6 1-6x24 and it is amazing. highly recommend it.Is
I gotta agree with eotech not being great. I have little experience with them but what I do have is, I bought one, it broke, when it did work I wasn't impressed.
Not me red dots are fine for CQB ranges but suck hard past 100 yards unless the target is big. Give me a good low power variable. For the OP's price point the Burris MTAC is not a bad choice.
Pat
And that's the point.
We could cite anecdotal evidence for every product ever made having isolated cases of failures. So these personal references are interesting, but what is persuasive to me is the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of EOTechs being fielded everywhere, people willing to pay big bux to get them.
In short, hundreds of thousands > isolated incidents.
But for someone who had one go crap out, nothing will be more persuasive than their own experience, no matter how isolated it is.
Because Departments/Agencies/Militaries/Officers/Agents/Soldiers are ALL top rate gun people. Dollars may speak, but when institutional stupidity gets involved, they aren't always worth listening to.
I mean we're talking about the same people who spent billions on UCP, the Beretta M9, Serpa holsters and the KDH Plate Carrier right?
So your base argument seems to be (1) anecdotal evidence proves EOTechs are crap and (2) people who you have never met but who don't agree with you are likely just stupid.
Nice.
The logical fallacies in this thread are piling up fast. (Hint: "logical fallacies" is a technical term for all the rhetoric / rationalizing you -and to be fair, others - are illegitimately employing. See "ad hominem," "begging the question" "part for the whole" etc etc etc)
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Talk about crap that gets spewed on the net. You're making a lot of generalizations and assumptions.
Where do you get your info on 3-gun? 3 Gun Nation? It doesn't sound first hand. 3 gun is what you MAKE of it. 3-gunners use irons. Or irons/scope. Or Irons/scope/red dot/magnifier. Or scope/red dot. A lot of guys don't game at all but use it as training. F the scoring and gaming gear. F the idea 3-gun can't be used with ANY rifle for home defense, LE patrol or homeland defense. Your generalization doesn't fit most of the guys I see shooting 3-gun in Texas.
I've shot my setup in 3-gun, 2-gun, night carbine matches, LE classes/Simunitions, etc. I've carried carbines on LE patrol. I've lived on 107ac and in subdivisions. With a responsible reticle choice + white light an illum 1x-?x scope works day/night and even without batteries. Close range. Precision shots. 0-500yds or more. With as large or larger "view" than a red dot. Assumptions about where people live and what they're shooting don't help. That's why I tried to get more info out of the OP.
I don't like offset red dot beside an optic for serious use; it risks the same occlusions as the primary (fogging, mud, snow, your own blood, whatever). Offset irons have largely been gamer gear. But I think they have merit when you use red dot or scope as your primary.
Paul Howe likes irons as basics. Kyle Lamb uses EOTechs. Larry Vickers prefers Aimpoints. Each considers that their basic gear for carbines. KISS doesn't rule. The mission/purpose does. It's Occam's Razor more than KISS.
FBI, NTOA, Box o' Truth, etc. all find there's not much difference in 5.56 and typical handguns inside an American sheetrock'd home. Some 55gr actually penetrates *less*, but why would you choose a high frag projectile when penetration is the key? Better to secure the house better... and failing that... watch your angles and downrange.
The primary advantage of the pistol is handiness in ALL home spaces.
If money wasn't an issue I would point you towards my Leupold Mark6 1-6 but given the realities of your budget I say a Millet 1-4 DMS. Call me crazy, but I was pleasantly surprised by this relatively inexpensive optic. Not the smallest or lightest but decent glass and illuminated reticle for around $250 with mount and lens covers.
There are no logical fallacies in watching a product repeatedly suck copious amounts of dick from laid back range days to moderately paced training environments. When I am confident enough to share my opinion on something, it usually means it isn't baseless. Notice I didn't go on about ACOGs - I've never used one, nor have I seen many in use. I admit that my sample size is relatively small, but even I'm not (un)lucky enough to personally see an 80+% failure rate in dozens of units from a 'reputable' company while seeing less than 10% failure, from a >3x larger sample size, from an 'inferior' company.
More like Logical Phallicies
Ive used both at my nail salon i work at and in my experience eotechs are sure to shit on you when least desired, but to each thier own
I have an EOTech 512 on my Colt 6920 that would not hold zero, sent it back and they replaced the thing for free, been working great so far. I love it for CQB work. I put the Burris 1-4 on my SIG716 that works well, should have went with a 1-8 or 1-10 though.
The Leupold vx3 in 1.5-5 x 20 is like $399. The CDS dial can be added for elevation for a reasonable price and works great. Not too fancy but it works damn good.
You guys who think that just because something is off the SOPMOD program makes it great crack me up. Of all those accessories there are 3 that are good, 2 I have never been issued and wish I could get, and 5 I wish we could get rid of never to be dealt with again.
Which are which? I know the lights suck compared to most lights nowadays, but I'm curious what you think is good/bad/ugly.
I really like the PVS-24 and most others do too. The resolution is quite decent and I like not having to remove my daylight optic. We don't use these much but I haven't seen any fail yet.
The LA-5s are functional and get the job done. Visible and IR with beam and flood is much more versatile than the old PAC-4 and the LA-5 is way smaller than the PEQ-2. No complaints really other than the fact that the mounting system is weak and therefore they don't hold a zero very well. You can grab hold and twist them lightly while they are attached to the rails of a weapon and see the beam move several inches even at 25 meters.
The PAS (SU-232) thermal sight doesn't impress. You have to remove your primary daylight optic which causes zeroing issues. Nobody uses them as a day/night optic really due to their limitations. They take a little while to cool off and start working, but they eat batteries so you can't just leave them on all the time. They are not very sensitive to heat sources at longer distances and their resolution is disappointing, especially when you use the digital zoom.
The Elcan (SU-230) is a little hit and miss. The ballstic drop reticle is illuminated with a rheostat, and being able to switch from 1x to 4x is great. I also like how it comes with rudimentary iron sights and usually a Docter sight on top. All in all a very versatile scope in a relatively small package. Unfortunately they aren't impressive in reliability. Have seen 2 with the erector assembly inop. The reticle has 2 illum modes, one way is a dot and the other is the ballistic drop tree. Most of the trees will not illuminate but usually the dot will. I actually just got a new model Elcan for the SCAR-H and right out of the box the tree would not light up. They have external adjustments and some guys have had to remove their BUIS because the tube hits it while trying to zero which makes adjustments ineffective after contact is made.
ACOG (SU-237) I haven't been issued one of these but would use it if I were. I have one of these at home and I think it is a great battle optic. ACOGs to me have proven to be outstandingly durable, I like the ballistic reticle and fiber optic/tritium dual-illumination, and the Docter sight handles close encounters while the scope handles further out. Mine also has iron back-up sights which the SU-237 doesn't appear to have.
The EoTech (SU-231) I have covered previously but in short they break way too frequently. Since I first contributed to this thread I went ahead and threw one on my shorty barrel just to give it another chance while I am teaching other units out at the range. It hasn't broken yet but it does have a noticeably canted reticle, I would guess about 5 degrees to the left. Not a big deal as long as it continues to function.
The PVS-17 is ok but the PVS-24 makes it a bit pointless in my eyes.
Flashlight (SU-233) are not impressive whatsoever. They are not very bright, only illuminate a small cone for a pretty short distance, and they have a dull yellow illumination instead of a bright white. Being incandescent bulbs they also are not as resilient as LED bulbs, plus they eat batteries pretty quick. The bulb life in some cases is not helped by guys mounting these far forward on the rails of short barrel rifles and letting the muzzle blast thump on them but that is operator ignorance. We purchased just before coming over here LED conversion kits but haven't installed them yet. I am hoping it fixes most of the issues. Oh yeah, you have to take the stupid thing off the rifle to change the batteries which is a PITA.
Flashlight (SU-238) haven't used it so no comment, but unless it is LED it will probably share the problems of the SU-233.
Second Gen Rail- We don't have these but they would be nice so we could de-clutter our rails a bit. At least spread the clutter out some.
Hope that helps Canuck.
The LA-5s are functional and get the job done. Visible and IR with beam and flood is much more versatile than the old PAC-4 and the LA-5 is way smaller than the PEQ-2. No complaints really other than the fact that the mounting system is weak and therefore they don't hold a zero very well. You can grab hold and twist them lightly while they are attached to the rails of a weapon and see the beam move several inches even at 25 meters.
The PAS (SU-232) thermal sight doesn't impress. You have to remove your primary daylight optic which causes zeroing issues. Nobody uses them as a day/night optic really due to their limitations. They take a little while to cool off and start working, but they eat batteries so you can't just leave them on all the time. They are not very sensitive to heat sources at longer distances and their resolution is disappointing, especially when you use the digital zoom.
The Elcan (SU-230) is a little hit and miss. The ballstic drop reticle is illuminated with a rheostat, and being able to switch from 1x to 4x is great. I also like how it comes with rudimentary iron sights and usually a Docter sight on top. All in all a very versatile scope in a relatively small package. Unfortunately they aren't impressive in reliability. Have seen 2 with the erector assembly inop. The reticle has 2 illum modes, one way is a dot and the other is the ballistic drop tree. Most of the trees will not illuminate but usually the dot will. I actually just got a new model Elcan for the SCAR-H and right out of the box the tree would not light up. They have external adjustments and some guys have had to remove their BUIS because the tube hits it while trying to zero which makes adjustments ineffective after contact is made.
ACOG (SU-237) I haven't been issued one of these but would use it if I were. I have one of these at home and I think it is a great battle optic. ACOGs to me have proven to be outstandingly durable, I like the ballistic reticle and fiber optic/tritium dual-illumination, and the Docter sight handles close encounters while the scope handles further out. Mine also has iron back-up sights which the SU-237 doesn't appear to have.
The EoTech (SU-231) I have covered previously but in short they break way too frequently. Since I first contributed to this thread I went ahead and threw one on my shorty barrel just to give it another chance while I am teaching other units out at the range. It hasn't broken yet but it does have a noticeably canted reticle, I would guess about 5 degrees to the left. Not a big deal as long as it continues to function.
The PVS-17 is ok but the PVS-24 makes it a bit pointless in my eyes.
Flashlight (SU-233) are not impressive whatsoever. They are not very bright, only illuminate a small cone for a pretty short distance, and they have a dull yellow illumination instead of a bright white. Being incandescent bulbs they also are not as resilient as LED bulbs, plus they eat batteries pretty quick. The bulb life in some cases is not helped by guys mounting these far forward on the rails of short barrel rifles and letting the muzzle blast thump on them but that is operator ignorance. We purchased just before coming over here LED conversion kits but haven't installed them yet. I am hoping it fixes most of the issues. Oh yeah, you have to take the stupid thing off the rifle to change the batteries which is a PITA.
Flashlight (SU-238) haven't used it so no comment, but unless it is LED it will probably share the problems of the SU-233.
Second Gen Rail- We don't have these but they would be nice so we could de-clutter our rails a bit. At least spread the clutter out some.
Hope that helps Canuck.
Wow, great info. I enjoy seeing that kind of real-world feedback on this stuff since I guess I always thought you guys got the best of the best when it came to equipment. I appreciate that post and thanks for your service!
Aimpoint pro will fit your budget and do more than everything you need.
Variable scope the Leupold patrol 1.25x4 is a great choice This with mount will be more than your budget though
Variable scope the Leupold patrol 1.25x4 is a great choice This with mount will be more than your budget though
When I buy, I always get the very best....I can afford. I don't know about anyone else, but I live in a world where both time and money exist in limited supply.
Hard to decide between the ACOG TA55A and the Elcan SpecterDR 1-5-6x. Sold my TA55A to fund an emergency once-in-a-lifetime score, wish I had it and a flat-top AR to put it on.
Glad to help Canuck. We have budget constraints too so while we get better than most, we don't always get the latest and greatest. Once we do have something it can be hard to get rid of if we don't like it. Property books and MTOEs are a PITA.
Newbie here. While the guys who "have done it twice, knows somebody who's done it twice, or has two of them" battle over optic solutions that are out of the OPs price range, Ill go ahead and go full newb and suggest, for a home defense carbine, an under $400 optic solution starts at a Primary Arms MicroDot #8 w/riser and ARD, hits a good midway point with a Vortex Spark and ARD, and peaks at an Aimpoint Pro, if you don't mind the extra weight over the Micros.
IMO, the best way to go is a Vortex Spark, due to warranty, weight and features), then spend the remainder on a decent and easy light solution like a TLR1s w/remote.
Who said that a 223 makes a bad HD solution? FUD! Check you FBI barrier penitration numbers again brother. 00 Buck and 9mm usually go further through wallboard and studs than that light and quite frangable 223 round. Ill take the overwhelming fire superiority that my carbine provides against home intruders, as I hate a fair fight!
IMO, the best way to go is a Vortex Spark, due to warranty, weight and features), then spend the remainder on a decent and easy light solution like a TLR1s w/remote.
Who said that a 223 makes a bad HD solution? FUD! Check you FBI barrier penitration numbers again brother. 00 Buck and 9mm usually go further through wallboard and studs than that light and quite frangable 223 round. Ill take the overwhelming fire superiority that my carbine provides against home intruders, as I hate a fair fight!
Not to argue about it about but the new EOTechs like EXPS series is pretty durable. I've seen some people do torture tests on them such as bashing it against tree, running it over with a Jeep and so on. The EXPS never broke and stayed zeroed in. I think its like any product. Anything can break and have a bug.
^^^This. I currently have one on the LT-724 offset mount with an Acog up top. ...truly an awesome sight and worth waiting for. Best price I've found is through sportoptics.com or Larue when they have 'em in stock.
I'll probably get flamed for this, saying I'm an old school has been, but for a battle rifle I want iron sights.
For me they are accurate, fast, and easy to use, no batteries, no fogging, and I can hit a man size target from the muzzle on out. Worked great for me in SE Asia, though I do like the A2 sights better then the A1 sights.
I've shot enough HP and ITT (rattle battle) matches to know they work quite well to 600 yards.
For me they are accurate, fast, and easy to use, no batteries, no fogging, and I can hit a man size target from the muzzle on out. Worked great for me in SE Asia, though I do like the A2 sights better then the A1 sights.
I've shot enough HP and ITT (rattle battle) matches to know they work quite well to 600 yards.
I don't see how anyone can argue that anything other than an aimpoint is acceptable if you are talking about home defense. 3 gun is a totally different animal.
Must disagree. Broke 2 Votrex SPARCs. They are NOT a replacement for an aimpoint micro. Not at all.
I have a Eotech 552 (Quick Detack that takes 2x123A batteries) and have nothing bad to say about it. Its been in service since 2007/2008 and I have only changed the batteries twice.
I have used the newer full size Aimpoint and like them. Somtimes a simple dot is simple and works
Everything can break and does. I think either will work just fine
I have used the newer full size Aimpoint and like them. Somtimes a simple dot is simple and works
Everything can break and does. I think either will work just fine
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EOTech EXPS3-0 here. Like it so far.
And for HD, the AR stays in the safe. Springfield XDM40 with Streamlight TLR-1 is all I need.
And for HD, the AR stays in the safe. Springfield XDM40 with Streamlight TLR-1 is all I need.
I agree with you on shooting at 600 yards in Service Rifle with iron sights. However, in HP, the 600 yard full face target is about 6 feet square.
In the real world, the enemy will be wearing camouflage and will attempt to conceal their position and movement.
Optics help me see the enemy so that I can shoot at them. I can't shoot at a zombie if I can't see him.
Optics also help in low light/ darkness when I can't even see iron sights.
That's true, the target frame is 6 X 6, however the aiming black is 36 inches, the X-10 ring is 12 inches. Moving to 1000 yards (which the iron sighted service rifle is used) the 10-X ring is 20 inches.
But look at the ITT (rattle battle or infantry trophy match) fired and 600 and back. The targets used in these matches is the E-silhouette, which is 19' wide and 40 inches tall, or the size of the average soldier.
When I was shooting for the Guard ( and since I retired) I've shoot a heck of a lot of 1000 yard matches, Using the Any Rifle/Any Scope (Weaver T-10), Any Rifle/Iron Sights (Redfield Olympic) and Service Rifle. My best scores I've fired at 1000 is the Service Rifle. Using of course post front, aperture rear.
It's what you get use to I guess, after hundreds of matches using the service rifle, I find I can shoot better with irons on my service rifles.
