BCM less expensive than Daniel Defense

[Milf Dots]

I've always considered BCM and Daniel Defense to be very close peers in terms of value, and another member's posted question about DD ARs caused me to do some research.

It appears that BCM is a better value on average by about $100-300 when comparing very similarly equipped BCM and DD models. I based this on website MSRP and GB "buy it now" pricing.

What do you think about my pricing observation- what do your local street prices indicate?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I would buy BCM over DD personally. There’s some D bags at DD and they’ve priced themselves over what a top tier AR should cost. BCM absolutely builds every bit as good rifles as DD and IMO has better rail designs and aren’t priced over what top tier AR’s should cost.

The reality of the matter is that both companies are just building top quality AR’s but they aren’t doing anything special other than that. If I’m gonna spend more than $1300 or so for an AR it’s going to be something like a LMT MARS rifle that actually gives you features that justify the added cost. LMT rifles are fucking awesome. Or get something like a SCAR, MCX or whatever other 5.56 platform floats your boat.

An AR shouldn’t cost $2K or even close to it unless the company is doing something different.

 

[hafejd30]

DD does have some very high quality barrels

 

[shoobe01]

Could have written that. I'll take a DD if you give it to me and be happy, but if the house burned down, I'd use the insurance to get a single ambi LMT lower for the Form 1'd gun, BCM for the uppers and all other lowers. Very happy, know zero unhappy with them out of box.

 

[FALex]

I would buy BCM over DD personally. There’s some D bags at DD and they’ve priced themselves over what a top tier AR should cost. BCM absolutely builds every bit as good rifles as DD and IMO has better rail designs and aren’t priced over what top tier AR’s should cost.

The reality of the matter is that both companies are just building top quality AR’s but they aren’t doing anything special other than that. If I’m gonna spend more than $1300 or so for an AR it’s going to be something like a LMT MARS rifle that actually gives you features that justify the added cost. LMT rifles are fucking awesome. Or get something like a SCAR, MCX or whatever other 5.56 platform floats your boat.

An AR shouldn’t cost $2K or even close to it unless the company is doing something different.

I 100% agree with redneck. Personally, I believe both companies make outstanding rifles (or whoever makes BCM's rifles to their specs). I believe Daniel Defense has marketed themselves a bit more aggressively, particularly with the Mk18, which has created a bit more of a demand for them. As a result, of the higher demand, DD was able to successfully increase their price and folks will pay it.

BCM was doing the whole "Gunfighter" campaign, which was excellent, but I don't think they were as aggressive as DD was. I have watched BCM's Gunfighter video, "Why We Train" a stupid amount of times.

DD's rifles have increased in price these past 3 years. I don't believe BCM's have? If they have increased, I haven't noticed, and I believe I'm fairly well-versed on the firearms market, new and used.

Last observation, I do not know who makes BCM's barrels, or if BCM produces their own? However, I do know DD does produce a rather quality barrel. His rifles are very accurate and consistent. Many AR enthusiasts will pay the extra just knowing they're getting a DD barrel.

If you're debating between the two, and the BCM is 1-300.00 cheaper, roll with the BCM. Which ever rifle you end up, with you're gonna want to upgrade the trigger, so the money saved can get that issue squared away.

Keep us updated.

 

[Kadams1563]

With DD about to get drug through the court system better get one NOW if you want one. I don’t know how many millions they are about to lose since you know it’s OK to sue them for what occurred.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Centurion arms for the win

 

[Another Casual]

I have a DD purchased about a decade ago. Great rifle (little over gassed), but I wouldn't buy one for what they cost today. BCMs uppers have crept up in price, but nothing compared to the hikes DD has made. Their barrels are great as long as you want a govt or LE contour. Something closer to criterion's core or similar would be a worth update.

 

[longshot2000]

I've always considered BCM and Daniel Defense to be very close peers in terms of value, and another member's posted question about DD ARs caused me to do some research.

It appears that BCM is a better value on average by about $100-300 when comparing very similarly equipped BCM and DD models. I based this on website MSRP and GB "buy it now" pricing.

Both are solid rifles. Our customers have consistently complained about the accuracy of BCM barrels, and praised DD barrels. We like BCM parts, especially BCG and rails and forged receivers.

 

[Jgault]

I’m a bcm fan, the uppers and lowers I have function flawlessly, as I’m sure DD does as well they are nice rifles. Depending on availability(bcm rifles seem to be harder to find) they are a savings as you described. I’ve shot a few DD and any difference in accuracy was probably me more than the rifle, the dd groups seemed a little tighter, but I do like the bcm lightweight barrel profile, I have the recce 14 lw and the rifle is about 5 1/2 pounds. What sets bcm apart to me(and it’s obviously personal preference) is the accessories. Bcm has my favorite stock, my favorite grip, I like their charging handles for the price, their polished trigger is probably my favorite mil spec trigger(the bcm trigger and the act to me are like twins), and comes with a good compensator. Functionally I like how the bcm handguard attaches, it’s rock solid and fits the barrel nut like a glove. It’s one of the few guns(at least in the ar/ak category) I’ve ever bought I didn’t change anything.

 

[Twitchy]

Both are solid rifles. Our customers have consistently complained about the accuracy of BCM barrels, and praised DD barrels. We like BCM parts, especially BCG and rails and forged receivers.

Any specific BCM barrels or just in general?

 

[JS8588]

Any specific BCM barrels or just in general?

BCM barrels are combat accurate. DD makes chf barrels that *are* MOA-Sub MOA capable.

 

[shoobe01]

My 12.5" BCM is repeatably sub-moa with the right ammo but can open up a lot with ammo it doesn't like. That seems to pan out with others who shoot a lot, check out accuracy per ammo. DD guns seem to have a /slight/ edge, less picky on ammo and bullet maybe, but it's all anecdotal; I don't know anyone who's done a serious comparative test.

I tend to think it's more about audience and configuration. DD guys will tend to spend more time on the bench checking for accuracy than BCM guys so reputations form.

 

[PappyM3]

Both are solid rifles. Our customers have consistently complained about the accuracy of BCM barrels, and praised DD barrels. We like BCM parts, especially BCG and rails and forged receivers.

Many reports of poor precision and also some reports of premature cracking of the chrome lining in BCM barrels has me avoid them like the plague.

But I also like their receivers, BCGs, and rails. They’re one of the few brands with uppers that reliably need thermal fitting of the barrel extension, which I like.

 

[Milf Dots]

To get the best bang for the buck between these two brands, It sounds like BCM is the rifle to have- but with a Daniel Defense barrel.

Why haven't BCM and DD moved to making all of their rifles fully ambi, like many other manufacturers?!

 

[JS8588]

To get the best bang for the buck between these two brands, It sounds like BCM is the rifle to have- but with a Daniel Defense barrel.

Why haven't BCM and DD moved to making all of their rifles fully ambi, like many other manufacturers?!

The latest gen of Daniel Defense is fully ambi.

 

[PappyM3]

To get the best bang for the buck between these two brands, It sounds like BCM is the rifle to have- but with a Daniel Defense barrel.

Pretty much. That would be a great rifle.

 

[ut755ln]

To get the best bang for the buck between these two brands, It sounds like BCM is the rifle to have- but with a Daniel Defense barrel.

Why haven't BCM and DD moved to making all of their rifles fully ambi, like many other manufacturers?!

I am right handed, why would I want ambi controls?

 

[Steve_In_29]

I am right handed, why would I want ambi controls?

You're kidding right...?

 

[Milf Dots]

I am right handed, why would I want ambi controls?

I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

 

[Constructor]

DD does have some very high quality barrels

If you get one that was crowned correctly.

 

[RUTGERS95]

bcm and accuracy do not go together

 

[Naaman]

I've always considered BCM and Daniel Defense to be very close peers in terms of value, and another member's posted question about DD ARs caused me to do some research.

It appears that BCM is a better value on average by about $100-300 when comparing very similarly equipped BCM and DD models. I based this on website MSRP and GB "buy it now" pricing.

What do you think about my pricing observation- what do your local street prices indicate?

I've used both.

I used to think that they were "the same." After getting a good amount of trigger time on each, I'd say that it really depends on what is important to you.

BCMs are "better" because they have a better trigger (polished mil-spec). Furniture looks cooler, but doesn't function any better, though the lack of rubber over molding lends itself better to "duty use." The BCM I am most familiar with is a ELW 14.5 BFH. Barrel profile accomplishes exactly what it set out to do (the front end feels as light as a toy, in a good way). On the flip side, that barrel heats up very fast, and gets too hot (for me) even with gloves/rail covers after just a couple of mags.

I find DD's rails to be better/stronger. Their light weight barrel does not heat up as fast. I also believe that DD barrels are "better" (this may just be perception based on anecdotal experience, but all the info I have indicates that DD makes a top tier barrel).

From a branding perspective, DD comes across as more snobbish, but my experiences with CS are the opposite: BCM CS was hard to deal with and ultimately gave me the sense that they didn't care whether I bought their stuff or not (rather than helping me understand whether gas port size and barrel length affect each other in terms of reliability, they told me the information was "proprietary;" after trying to ask the question without requesting the actual spec, they stuck to their "proprietary" answer; so instead of buying two barrels from them and measuring myself, I just spent the money elsewhere). DD customer service is way more helpful in my experience.

As for pricing, an apples to apples comparison can be difficult to make because BCM no longer sells complete rifles to customers.

If you compare uppers to uppers, there is about a $50-75 advantage to BCM (assuming you're going with the BFH barrel, ambi CH and A2 muzzle device). As for street price, it seems DD commands full MSRP with a lot of vendors, but DD also offers their MIL/LE discount to veterans, so if you qualify that could be something to look at.

As far as lowers go, DD doesn't offer them at all, and my LGS sells BCM lowers at full MSRP (which is $575 if I remember correctly... maybe $525, not sure, but online vendors still sell them for around $400). Anyway, I think OP's numbers are right on.

Right now, I have an easier time finding DDs in stock than BCMs, so that could have something to do with DD not needing to rely on suppliers as much as BCM does.

At the end of the day, I like both rifles a lot. BCM really impressed me with they way they handled the thing with Milwaukee PD, but my CS experience left me with a bad taste in my mouth. For now, I'd rather do business with DD, but I have not written off BCM.

 

[ut755ln]

I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Explain it please, I am serious. I have avoided them because I have big gorilla hands and I index my finger and like not touching an ambi safety or some button to lock the bcg. That does not mean I won't change, it just means I either don't understand or don't appreciate it.

 

[Naaman]

Explain it please, I am serious. I have avoided them because I have big gorilla hands and I index my finger and like not touching an ambi safety or some button to lock the bcg. That does not mean I won't change, it just means I either don't understand or don't appreciate it.

From speaking to a few people, whether ambi controls are more benefit than liability depends on your use case.

I talked to a lefty one day who said that his gear sometimes depressed the mag release button on his rifle when it was slung. I can see how this could happen, but haven't seen it, myself. An ambi receiver could cause a similar issue with a righty.

Another thread around here (something about a soldier's perspective on CQB rifle set up) indicates that guys who are currently "going there" and "doing that" prefer non-ambi lowers because the extra parts introduce additional failure points.

My opinion is that ambi controls make the biggest difference during administrative tasks. I don't imagine lefties have been much (if any) slower than righties for all these years prior to ambi controls...

 

[rpoL98]

my observation, an ambi bolt catch usually entails a proprietary lower. An ambi mag release and ambi safety selector can be done with a garden-variety USGI mil-spec lower.

 

[powdahound76]

Who buys complete rifles?

I can get high end barrels and put together a great rifle with parts I like.

BCM uppers are good, lowers are good.

Honestly have had great experiences with Aero uppers and lowers too, for better price and I like a couple of their lower features more.

 

[Constructor]

Explain it please, I am serious. I have avoided them because I have big gorilla hands and I index my finger and like not touching an ambi safety or some button to lock the bcg. That does not mean I won't change, it just means I either don't understand or don't appreciate it.

Ever shoot left handed when shooting around a corner? L

 

[MarshallDodge]

My experience with both companies has been good. I've never really tested my BCM uppers for accuracy but I did take a carbine class years ago with my son who shot the 16" BCM middy upper. The instructor was super impressed with his groups.

Son #2 killed a gas key on his 11.5 BCM and they replaced it under warranty. He runs that upper pretty hard and it started leaking after 5K rounds.

I picked up a DD 14.5LW barrel and bolt, and built an AR with it for my now former wife. It shot a 68 BTHP/TAC load well inside of an inch. I was impressed because those barrels are pretty thin.

 

[Heckler&Kac]

Aren't they both just glorified boutique parts assemblers for the most part?

 

[Constructor]

If you could build rifles for $600 and sell them for $2400 would you? If we all had big names we all could.

 

[Milf Dots]

No, DD actually manufactures their own stuff, BCM does not.

I knew DD was a manufacturing company, but I'd read on forums over the years that BCM manufactured most of their own components too... Can anyone substantiate BCM does or doesn't?

And along with that, does LWRCi make some of their own components?

 

[Constructor]

I knew DD was a manufacturing company, but I'd read on forums over the years that BCM manufactured most of their own components too... Can anyone substantiate BCM does or doesn't?

And along with that, does LWRCi make some of their own components?

I heard a rumor years ago that one company somewhere in that coastal South Carolina area had a hammer forge machine and all of the companies that sell CHF barrels in that area got the barrels from the same place. Was it FN, DD or ??
I've not been in any of the factories so I can't say but most believe the CHF barrels in the US come from either FN or Colt Canada.
Around 2008-09 I got a phone call well after working hours then a text showing 2 pallets(wire cage) full of barrels. The person said the barrels came from Canada and cost $38 ea. He said the machining was so bad they all had to be reworked and that is why the barrels were sent to the company where this guy worked. He said hard to believe the barrels were going in rifles that sold for around $2400.

 

[shoobe01]

I have been around enough, in factories, helped design things, etc. and I DNGAF where things are made, but much more care about repeatability to a spec. My compressor (parts made in China but assembled and run in at an IR plant in the US) is a good example but Apple is a well known one: They make VERY little stuff in house, for the rest do not own those Chinese factories for all the iPhones, etc but design all, and hold the delivery to spec Or Else.

No idea if BCM has any in-house manufacturing, but they do* check every single piece they get before assembly, and that helps a lot. Video with shots of their inspection bits:


Been in plenty of factories putting out crap product, and I'll take outsourced and good QA every time.


* Apparently. Do not want to argue what is claimed is not true as everyone to government oversight programs cheats. Let's assume not cheating though, mkay?

 

[MarshallDodge]

DD has a hammer forging machine in house for making their barrels.

BCM started making ther own bolt carrier groups in house years ago when they couldn't source a quality product.

I think both companies make their rails in house.

 

[Steve_In_29]

Aren't they both just glorified boutique parts assemblers for the most part?

Like Colt?

Who makes almost none of the parts that go in their rifles. Yet fanbois swear they are the top tier.

 

[Steve_In_29]

From speaking to a few people, whether ambi controls are more benefit than liability depends on your use case.

I talked to a lefty one day who said that his gear sometimes depressed the mag release button on his rifle when it was slung. I can see how this could happen, but haven't seen it, myself. An ambi receiver could cause a similar issue with a righty.

Another thread around here (something about a soldier's perspective on CQB rifle set up) indicates that guys who are currently "going there" and "doing that" prefer non-ambi lowers because the extra parts introduce additional failure points.

My opinion is that ambi controls make the biggest difference during administrative tasks. I don't imagine lefties have been much (if any) slower than righties for all these years prior to ambi controls...

I prefer an ambi mag release and safety and have them on all my ARs.

The off-side safety lever is shorter and thinned to keep it from getting in the way. I use my thumb to flick safety off but find it easier to reengage the safety with my trigger finger as I come off the gun.

I can kind of see a stock mag release getting depressed when slung lefty but the ambi ones I have take appreciably more force to release from the off-side. Mine don't have big paddles or extended levers. You just push on the end of the mag catch.

 

[Naaman]

I knew DD was a manufacturing company, but I'd read on forums over the years that BCM manufactured most of their own components too... Can anyone substantiate BCM does or doesn't?

And along with that, does LWRCi make some of their own components?

Last I heard, BCM makes very few (if any) of the machined parts. Maybe their rails? Last I heard, their hammer forged barrels are FN. Not sure about the button barrels.

Plenty of youtube videos with DD factory tours.

I'm not sure how much difference it makes whether a company makes their own stuff, but I think DD may be the only one who makes every single part (many folks say "almost every single part" but DD doesn't seem to be saying "almost").

A few years ago we (not me, but the armorers at work) were given carte blanch to spec out new rifles to replace our Colts. We needed around 70 with ongoing support for parts. They approached BCM first, who said they could not support an order that size. And we ended up with DD instead. So there is an anecdote that may or may not be relevant to the difference that in-house manufacturing makes.

 

[Naaman]

I heard a rumor years ago that one company somewhere in that coastal South Carolina area had a hammer forge machine and all of the companies that sell CHF barrels in that area got the barrels from the same place. Was it FN, DD or ??
I've not been in any of the factories so I can't say but most believe the CHF barrels in the US come from either FN or Colt Canada.
Around 2008-09 I got a phone call well after working hours then a text showing 2 pallets(wire cage) full of barrels. The person said the barrels came from Canada and cost $38 ea. He said the machining was so bad they all had to be reworked and that is why the barrels were sent to the company where this guy worked. He said hard to believe the barrels were going in rifles that sold for around $2400.

That many years ago I wasn't paying much attention, but for that price at that time, the only company I can think of would be Wilson Combat (assuming we are talking about AR barrels).

Besides FN, Ruger, DD, Geissele and I think Remington have their own hammer forges. I think I read somewhere that KAC does, too.

 

[Constructor]

Last I heard, BCM makes very few (if any) of the machined parts. Maybe their rails? Last I heard, their hammer forged barrels are FN. Not sure about the button barrels.

Plenty of youtube videos with DD factory tours.

I'm not sure how much difference it makes whether a company makes their own stuff, but I think DD may be the only one who makes every single part (many folks say "almost every single part" but DD doesn't seem to be saying "almost").

A few years ago we (not me, but the armorers at work) were given carte blanch to spec out new rifles to replace our Colts. We needed around 70 with ongoing support for parts. They approached BCM first, who said they could not support an order that size. And we ended up with DD instead. So there is an anecdote that may or may not be relevant to the difference that in-house manufacturing makes.

Did you say 70 rifles or 70,000? 70 a week is pretty easy even for a small shop.

 

[Constructor]

That many years ago I wasn't paying much attention, but for that price at that time, the only company I can think of would be Wilson Combat (assuming we are talking about AR barrels).

Besides FN, Ruger, DD, Geissele and I think Remington have their own hammer forges. I think I read somewhere that KAC does, too.

Wilson Combat doesn't make their own barrels and they are more civilian grade anyway.

 

[ut755ln]

That many years ago I wasn't paying much attention, but for that price at that time, the only company I can think of would be Wilson Combat (assuming we are talking about AR barrels).

Besides FN, Ruger, DD, Geissele and I think Remington have their own hammer forges. I think I read somewhere that KAC does, too.

I know FN, Colt and DD do. I know that KAC receives some of their barrels from Noveske, I don't think that they make barrels.

 

[Naaman]

Did you say 70 rifles or 70,000? 70 a week is pretty easy even for a small shop.

Seven Zero. 70. It could be that they just weren't interested, or the reps weren't authorized to make the deal... but my understanding (which was told to me by those who spoke to the reps) is that the company itself "couldn't" make that happen.

Perhaps that is consistent with what we see today: BCM won't sell complete rifles to customers anymore. They have dedicated that entire segment of their production to fulfilling vendor orders. DD doing everything in-house may be what has allowed them to fill both end-user orders as well as vendor orders.

Wilson Combat doesn't make their own barrels and they are more civilian grade anyway.

Wasn't that your point? Didn't you say that the barrels were from Canada, hence, not made by the parts aggregator, but bought and assembled into a rifle? Civilian grade or not, one can be spec'd up to be pretty pricey.

Just trying to be clear about what I said and what I thought you meant.

 

[Constructor]

Seven Zero. 70. It could be that they just weren't interested, or the reps weren't authorized to make the deal... but my understanding (which was told to me by those who spoke to the reps) is that the company itself "couldn't" make that happen.

Perhaps that is consistent with what we see today: BCM won't sell complete rifles to customers anymore. They have dedicated that entire segment of their production to fulfilling vendor orders. DD doing everything in-house may be what has allowed them to fill both end-user orders as well as vendor orders.

Wasn't that your point? Didn't you say that the barrels were from Canada, hence, not made by the parts aggregator, but bought and assembled into a rifle? Civilian grade or not, one can be spec'd up to be pretty pricey.

Just trying to be clear about what I said and what I thought you meant.

No, 3 companies involved. 1) in Canada made the barrels, 2)the company that contracted the Canadian company to make the barrels and 3)a barrel manufacturer here in the states that fixed the barrels. I had a contract with #3 at the time to do work for me. I can't say who #2 is but they advertise themselves as making barrels for the professionals/warfighters.

 

[Naaman]

No, 3 companies involved. 1) in Canada made the barrels, 2)the company that contracted the Canadian company to make the barrels and 3)a barrel manufacturer here in the states that fixed the barrels. I had a contract with #3 at the time to do work for me. I can't say who #2 is but they advertise themselves as making barrels for the professionals/warfighters.

Oh, I see. Got it. I do recall reading about such a company getting barrels from Deimeco (sp?), but not certain of which one.

 

[RUTGERS95]

That many years ago I wasn't paying much attention, but for that price at that time, the only company I can think of would be Wilson Combat (assuming we are talking about AR barrels).

Besides FN, Ruger, DD, Geissele and I think Remington have their own hammer forges. I think I read somewhere that KAC does, too.

FN makes 90 percent of them on the mkt and to varying specs. DD, lwrc are the only two I know for sure do. I do not believe kac does as they get a ton of stuff from lmt and lmt does not hammer forge their barrels and given their performance, I wouldn't either.

all this fuss for DD is surprising given their anti 2a stance. why support them? shocked actually

 

[RUTGERS95]

I know FN, Colt and DD do. I know that KAC receives some of their barrels from Noveske, I don't think that they make barrels.

Colt doesn't have hammer forged barrels and Noveske barrels are sourced from FN. KAC could be called LMT light given how much they get from them.

 

[DubfromGA]

With DD about to get drug through the court system better get one NOW if you want one. I don’t know how many millions they are about to lose since you know it’s OK to sue them for what occurred.

God help us.

If they get a win with DD then the floodgates will open and all gun makers are in their sights.

Litigious fukks will be the final nail in the coffin.....

FJB, his cabinet and the horses they rode in on. Bastards.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

Colt doesn't have hammer forged barrels and Noveske barrels are sourced from FN. KAC could be called LMT light given how much they get from them.

up till they burned down, noveske SS barrels came from pac nor.

 

[Naaman]

all this fuss for DD is surprising given their anti 2a stance. why support them? shocked actually.

I'm not really convinced they're anti 2A, though I understand why some folks see it this way.

Other companies that have "outed" themselves as anti 2A tend to make excuses and hem and haw trying to justify their actions (donations, political speech, etc.... BRCC, Vortex, Springfield, etc...). Best I can tell, DD financially supports pro 2A candidates.