Beam scale… am I out of my mind?

[SlowMiss6.5]

Intellidropper got some ball powder (staball 6.5) inside where the tube dispenser spins. Also have caught it wondering from time to time which makes me go back and check charge weights

So I’m thinking of going to a beam scale because I’m tired of all the electrical interference or wondering I have gotten on the cheaper sub $200 scales I’ve used

I reload high precision (or atleast try to lol) ammo but do shoot 4-5 PRS matches a year so a fair amount of reloading during the season.

Really don’t want to spend $300+ on a scale but before I went the beam route figured I’d at least ask you all if there is a better option? If not, which beam would you recommend?

ES and SD are important to me, especially on my hunting ammo

 

[hafejd30]

I have a rcbs 1500 combo. But have a 505 as a backup

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

I have a rcbs 1500 combo. But have a 505 as a backup

How sensitive is the 505? Can you fairly easily tell the difference from a few extra kernels of extruded powder?

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

How much is your time worth?

Staball you could probably get away with a powder dropper.
If you're chasing precision and speed, all roads lead to an autotrickler (with the IP upgrade, or the full IP system when it comes out in.... soon?)

ETA: I put my beam scale back in the box when I got an fx120 and haven't touched it since.

 

[hafejd30]

How sensitive is the 505? Can you fairly easily tell the difference from a few extra kernels of extruded powder?

I honestly don’t remember. My chargemaster crashed about 10 years ago. Rcbs went good on replacing it. Haven’t had an issue since. But bought the 505 as a backup. I did test it when I got it and compared to my 1500. But can’t remember how close it was. It was accurate enough that I kept it so it must be decent

I have a rcbs powder thrower as well to get close. Then a trickler to get exactly where I want if needed

 

[straightshooter1]

Intellidropper got some ball powder (staball 6.5) inside where the tube dispenser spins. Also have caught it wondering from time to time which makes me go back and check charge weights

So I’m thinking of going to a beam scale because I’m tired of all the electrical interference or wondering I have gotten on the cheaper sub $200 scales I’ve used

I reload high precision (or atleast try to lol) ammo but do shoot 4-5 PRS matches a year so a fair amount of reloading during the season.

Really don’t want to spend $300+ on a scale but before I went the beam route figured I’d at least ask you all if there is a better option? If not, which beam would you recommend?

ES and SD are important to me, especially on my hunting ammo

The best I could do with my beam scale is get SD consistently in the mid teens. For me, that's not good enough. I mean, I tried everything from having it tuned and making sure there wasn't variation and making sure I didn't have any parallax issue (using a video camera set up). I was after single digit SD's and I only got there with an electronic scale. I tried the cheaper scales, but like you, I was a bit frustrated over the drifting. Though I did find a technique to mitigated that, but it was a bit of a hassle. Having gone to an FX, I get the SD's I'm after and no real hassle with drifting and charging speed is good. So . . . choose your poison.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

The best I could do with my beam scale is get SD consistently in the mid teens. For me, that's not good enough. I mean, I tried everything from having it tuned and making sure there wasn't variation and making sure I didn't have any parallax issue (using a video camera set up). I was after single digit SD's and I only got there with an electronic scale. I tried the cheaper scales, but like you, I was a bit frustrated over the drifting. Though I did find a technique for mitigated that, but it was a bit of a hassle. Having gone to an FX, I get the SD's I'm after and none really hassle with drifting and charging speed is good. So . . . choose your poison.

I take you throw a charge and trickled up using the FX?

 

[beetroot]

I will never go back to beam scale.
I suffered with one for years until I bought a Charge Master, best money I ever spent reloading.

 

[straightshooter1]

I take you throw a charge and trickled up using the FX?

Yes.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I started with a Lyman beam and other than making sure the static is discharged its always been trouble free. With the amount of ones & zeros flying around and electrical transients/emissions coming thru the outlets & walls there are many things that could have an effect on electrically operated scales.

 

[diggler1833]

How sensitive is the 505? Can you fairly easily tell the difference from a few extra kernels of extruded powder?

I measure to the individual kernel on my M500, and the scale is sensitive enough to show the difference.

If you sit under a running air conditioner vent, it will throw you off a bit...but I imagine that would happen to a good electronic scale too.

 

[Slides]

Admittedly 6BR which is supposed to be easy but every group I have shot over the chronograph has been single digit SD without trying really hard to get the indicator absolutely dead on with the RCBS branded version of 505 balance, unless I was shooting very high volumes I'd rather spend that much money elsewhere, in my case in an AMP annealer setup.

I got a cheap hornady auto trickler and try to run it just under target and hand trickle on the beam.

 

[XP1K]

Some of the comments about sd's and beam scales is kind of interesting. I use an antique redding that belonged to me grandfather and a harrells powder measure and I can consistently get single digits sd's on most everything I load. Mainly 223, 308, and 300winmag. With a little 243AI thrown in on the side.

In the winmag with 7828 an SD below 5 is not uncommon.

Recently, loading 77 tmk's in 223 for one of my ar's, weighing every charge during load development, the best I could get with my powder/primer/brass combo was in the 8-9 range. After i settled on a load, out of curiosity I just dropped the charges on five and shot them. Sd went up to 11-12 just dropping the charges from the harrells.

 

[Doom]

Most electronic scale issues are associated with zero/tare drift and not calibration drift. Good laboratory practice is to re-zero the scale BEFORE EVERY SAMPLE IS WEIGHED. This is a step that is often omitted by reloaders. RE-ZEROING eliminates the potential drift issue and is a common automatic feature on higher end scales such as the Fx-120i and the Chargemaster 1500. In some cases, if trying to measure very small weights near zero the auto zero function interferes. The scale sees the minor changes in weight as zero drift and re-zeros.

It is also important to understand that the scale does not use a single point reading but averages readings over time. Not providing enough time for this to occur can also be a source of zero AND weight reading errors.

As for devices such as the Intellidropper or most of the Chargemasters the major component in weight variation from load to load is due to the dispenser not the scale. The trickle feature in a single spout dispenser is not precise enough to repeatably drop one or two kernels of powder.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Intellidropper got some ball powder (staball 6.5) inside where the tube dispenser spins. Also have caught it wondering from time to time which makes me go back and check charge weights

So I’m thinking of going to a beam scale because I’m tired of all the electrical interference or wondering I have gotten on the cheaper sub $200 scales I’ve used

I reload high precision (or atleast try to lol) ammo but do shoot 4-5 PRS matches a year so a fair amount of reloading during the season.

Really don’t want to spend $300+ on a scale but before I went the beam route figured I’d at least ask you all if there is a better option? If not, which beam would you recommend?

ES and SD are important to me, especially on my hunting ammo

Just remember there are many other factors, that will effect SD/ES numbers besides powder weight.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

Most electronic scale issues are associated with zero/tare drift and not calibration drift. Good laboratory practice is to re-zero the scale BEFORE EVERY SAMPLE IS WEIGHED. This is a step that is often omitted by reloaders. RE-ZEROING eliminates the potential drift issue and is a common automatic feature on higher end scales such as the Fx-120i and the Chargemaster 1500. In some cases, if trying to measure very small weights near zero the auto zero function interferes. The scale sees the minor changes in weight as zero drift and re-zeros.

It is also important to understand that the scale does not use a single point reading but averages readings over time. Not providing enough time for this to occur can also be a source of zero AND weight reading errors.

As for devices such as the Intellidropper or most of the Chargemasters the major component in weight variation from load to load is due to the dispenser not the scale. The trickle feature in a single spout dispenser is not precise enough to repeatably drop one or two kernels of powder.

Good info, wasn’t aware I needed to zero so frequently. I usually waited u til the empty pan read anything but zero and then zeroed

 

[Rocketmandb]

Really don’t want to spend $300+ on a scale but before I went the beam route figured I’d at least ask you all if there is a better option? If not, which beam would you recommend?

I know you don't want to hear this, but the single most time-saving (with accuracy to boot) upgrade I did was moving up to the A&D FX120i scale/Autotrickler. Now, if you don't want to spend $300+ on a scale, you won't want to spend $900+ on a system like this. However, if you just get the A&D FX120i scale from one of the sellers that caters to reloaders (~$500), you can add in the Autotrickler later and it still brings significant time advantages to the table on its own.

The scale measures down to .02gr increments and settles incredibly quickly. Just use a powder dropper and a manual trickler for each load. I did this for about a year before getting the Autotrickler and thought it was the best thing since sliced bread - until I got the Autotrickler...

I spent more money on sub-par scales until I finally landed on the A&D FX120i, that I could have bought the better scale outright in the beginning and still have been a few hundred dollars ahead.

 

[bpd459]

A properly tuned beam scale will run with an e-scale…. This from my Scott Parker tuned OHaus. It reads to the kernel. 43.3 N-150 / Berger 200-20x.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

A properly tuned beam scale will run with an e-scale…. This from my Scott Parker tuned OHaus. It reads to the kernel. 43.3 N-150 / Berger 200-20x.

Do you know if he’s on this forum? I think I found him on shootersforum but I’m still awaiting to be ac worked over there as a member

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

I know you don't want to hear this, but the single most time-saving (with accuracy to boot) upgrade I did was moving up to the A&D FX120i scale/Autotrickler. Now, if you don't want to spend $300+ on a scale, you won't want to spend $900+ on a system like this. However, if you just get the A&D FX120i scale from one of the sellers that caters to reloaders (~$500), you can add in the Autotrickler later and it still brings significant time advantages to the table on its own.

The scale measures down to .02gr increments and settles incredibly quickly. Just use a powder dropper and a manual trickler for each load. I did this for about a year before getting the Autotrickler and thought it was the best thing since sliced bread - until I got the Autotrickler...

I spent more money on sub-par scales until I finally landed on the A&D FX120i, that I could have bought the better scale outright in the beginning and still have been a few hundred dollars ahead.

I don’t disagree with you lol. But I just can’t see spending that much money, it’s not a financial problem, it’s a concept issue for me haha

 

[hero's machine]

I ran two beams and a trickler for years. I could drop a charge and trickle up the settled scale and by the time it was done, the other settled down.

I moved to the v4/120i after watching my neighbor meet my times.....BUT he was doing other tasks in the few seconds it took to throw.

It takes me 2 minutes to calibrate the feeder and then I rarely get an over charge.....cycle time is about 7 seconds.

I still have a 1010, redding and the m1000.....but I haven't used them since I bought the time machine.

 

[Kfive73]

I ran a beam scale for years. Then one night I noticed the blades on the beam were sticking in the v block… causing possible over charge on powder. The next week I ordered a 120i. I still trickle into the weight (don’t shoot enough to justify expensive auto tricklers). I will not go back to beam because of this.

I think creedmoor sports came out with a pretty good digital scale at a decent price

 

[Herb Stoner]

A properly tuned beam scale will run with an e-scale…. This from my Scott Parker tuned OHaus. It reads to the kernel. 43.3 N-150 / Berger 200-20x.

I have two scales that he tuned - very consistent scales. I'm happy with my ST but keep them around as an solid analog option if needed. Avoid anything with a threaded poise (mostly the models ending in 05) for better consistently. I do remember that Scott wouldn't tune most scales with a threaded poise.

 

[JoshPutman]

A couple things I've heard about that can affect electronic scales is having your phone close to them, and flourescent lights.

I don't know how much truth there is to it, though.

 

[FimRire RongLifle]

I want a beam scale just to have a decent one lying around. I use the 120i currently as a main scale. I have a cheapie e-scale for other jobs (which i rarely create for it)

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

There is a whole host of things that are more important than a 1/10th gr of powder. Searching this site will yield them all. If you have never heard about OCW it is a thing.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

A couple things I've heard about that can affect electronic scales is having your phone close to them, and flourescent lights.

I don't know how much truth there is to it, though.

I’ve seen that to and put any electronics in a totally different room to minimize the error. Frankford is warranting my Intellidropper but not sure I want to trust it the more I learn about these cheaper automatic powder measures

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

A properly tuned beam scale will run with an e-scale…. This from my Scott Parker tuned OHaus. It reads to the kernel. 43.3 N-150 / Berger 200-20x.

Impressive.. do you mind telling me your process as far as sizing the brass? And any other things you’ve learned that greatly effects ES/SD?

 

[straightshooter1]

A properly tuned beam scale will run with an e-scale…. This from my Scott Parker tuned OHaus. It reads to the kernel. 43.3 N-150 / Berger 200-20x.

Yeah . . . a Prometheus does really well!

 

[JerkyFreak]

The great thing about the A&D magnetic restoration balances are that they are not very susceptible to electronic interference. Just be aware that because it uses a strong permanent magnet to not try and weigh something magnetic. Steel weighing pans are also not indicated...

 

[misser]

hard to beat gravity ,yes a fan running in the room does mess with a beam scale ,a speck of dust at the pivot point can mess with the beam finding its happy spot. and then there are weird things ,many years ago a spider put one thread of that web on the beam,its much like a rubber band .let me tell you that will mess with your head .

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

Yeah . . . a Prometheus does really well!

View attachment 8394321

That looks nice and cheap!

 

[JerkyFreak]

Don't overlook the humble Lee scale. May be cheaply made, but it is sensitive enough to pick up a kernel of Varget.

 

[bobke]

If you do decide to go beam, only one worth
your consideration is a Parker tuned scale. I throw charge and trickle up on scale to right near the kernel-about 20 seconds for the whole process and my SD’s are very consistently under 10, often better, but there’s a lot of prep behind good numbers.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

If you do decide to go beam, only one worth
your consideration is a Parker tuned scale. I throw charge and trickle up on scale to right near the kernel-about 20 seconds for the whole process and my SD’s are very consistently under 10, often better, but there’s a lot of prep behind good numbers.

I’ve tried to get a hold of him with no luck, is he on this forum?

I ordered a Lyman brass smith beam scale as well as a Redding No2. Figured I’d return one or both if they’re not sensitive to a couple kernels and then maybe go looking for an old Lyman M5, D5 or RCBS/Ohaus 5-10

 

[Doom]

Good info, wasn’t aware I needed to zero so frequently. I usually waited u til the empty pan read anything but zero and then zeroed

If the display is 0.1 gn then Your drift will exceed 0.099gn before you see it. If the minimum display increment is 0.02gn then you see the drift when it exceeds 0.0199gn.

EDIT: I BELIEVE THIS IS NOT CORRECT. THE MAXIMUM DRIFT IS 1/2 THE ABOVE VALUES.

I’ve seen that to and put any electronics in a totally different room to minimize the error. Frankford is warranting my Intellidropper but not sure I want to trust it the more I learn about these cheaper automatic powder measures

Interference is usually easy to detect. Calibrate and zero your scale. Set your cell phone next to it. Zero change? Weigh calibration weights. Weights correct? You will know. Don't put your 50 year old fluorescent desk lamp near your scale, or your AM radio if you have one. If you are a Ham Radio operator keep your scale away from that equipment. Other than that you are unlikely to have interference issues.

 

[Slides]

If the display is 0.1 gn then Your drift will exceed 0.099gn before you see it. If the minimum display increment is 0.02gn then you see the drift when it exceeds 0.0199gn.

If it's actually zeroed at start the display will transition to plus or minus 0.1gr displayed at 0.05gr drift or mass added/subtracted if it works like any scale or digital reading instrument I ever used while working as a calibration officer in the physical metrology branch at the National Measurement Institute of Australia. If these scales are reading in the fashion you suggest they are absolute junk. Can you link to a manual or functional description on a supplier website demonstrating the function you suggest?

Edit, this probably came off a bit rude.

 

[JerkyFreak]

Perhaps anyone with a RCBS electronic scale or Lyman electronic scale can take a photo of the scale weighing 0.3gr? Mine showed 0.0gr until the weight exceeded 0.4gr.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I still have my beam scale along with electronic and a n auto scale. Beam is there for backup and testing. As long as treated with relative care (don’t drop kick it) they are as reliable as, well, gravity!

Loaded a lot of rounds with it, too. But “what’s your Time worth” is a valid question.

Sirhr

 

[Slides]

Perhaps anyone with a RCBS electronic scale or Lyman electronic scale can take a photo of the scale weighing 0.3gr? Mine showed 0.0gr until the weight exceeded 0.4gr.

If that's the case it's a programming thing not a general analog to digital display thing. If you compare it side by side with something an order og magnitude finer resolving or better you see the reading transitions clearly within the normal scale reading range.

For long range target stuff I'll probably always use the beam scale, at least with standard bolt face cartridges maybe not for 338lap or 300 Norma but even hunting loads for 243 or 308, +/- 0.05gr off (plus minus a touch of scale drift) on a 40gr charge is pretty modest given potential variations from humidity and neck tension.

 

[secondofangle2]

Yes, you are out of your mind

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

ok so update for now and will follow back up. Let’s hold off on anymore replies until I come back with data

I got a hold of Scott and should be getting a tuned (sensitive to a kernel of powder) older beam scale that should be a good reference point. I will test powder changes with the new frankford (they’re sending me a new one under warranty), the beam and a cheap $25 electronic scale that people over at shootersforum praise. Figured I can return it to Amazon so figured what do I have to lose.

I’ll be looking for consistency not necessarily matching numbers because I doubt they’ll all match

Then once I have a comparison of the 3 over 10-20 charge weights, I will post results here and then see if I need to go searching for a high dollar electronic scale like creedmoor for 120i

 

[Doom]

If it's actually zeroed at start the display will transition to plus or minus 0.1gr displayed at 0.05gr drift or mass added/subtracted if it works like any scale or digital reading instrument I ever used while working as a calibration officer in the physical metrology branch at the National Measurement Institute of Australia. If these scales are reading in the fashion you suggest they are absolute junk. Can you link to a manual or functional description on a supplier website demonstrating the function you suggest?

I tried to test whether the ChargeMaster 1500 was rounding or truncating but I was unable to get repeatable results. I will defer to your experience. I think part of my confusion was brought on by the issue below. I have never seen a -0.0 on the Chargemaster and won't because of the auto zero.

I did not have any documentation. My observations were based on tested dispensed charges from the Chargemaster 1500 weighed on two separate higher precision/resolution scales. Based on my efforts this morning and reviewing some of that data I believe neither test scale was of high enough accuracy to make a determination.

Perhaps anyone with a RCBS electronic scale or Lyman electronic scale can take a photo of the scale weighing 0.3gr? Mine showed 0.0gr until the weight exceeded 0.4gr.

If you try to trickle up from 0.0 gn then the scales may be/are auto zeroing out the amount that is added. I know this feature is in the 1500 and I do not know of a way to disable it. I think the 1500 auto zeros 0.3 gn and under.

 

[MarkyMark007]

the best new balance reloading scale is RCBS M500.

 

[misser]

the best new balance reloading scale is RCBS M500.

maybe . i'll keeping my RCBS 5-10 and 10-10

 

[Herb Stoner]

the best new balance reloading scale is RCBS M500.

Get an old one. They’re everywhere on eBay, etc. and MUCH better.

 

[Rob01]

I have used a 5-0-5 for many years and still do. No issues getting single digit SDs and great accuracy with ball or stick powders. No need or want to change it up.

 

[diggler1833]

My old 505 had plastic knives that sat in the cradle. I noticed after about 17-18 years that I'd managed to ding one up somehow, and that it was sticking occasionally. I bought a new M500, and am happy. Neither is constructed out of bomb-proof materials.

Single digit SDs are the norm. It definitely takes longer, but reloading is my "zen". Some guys hate it, but I am perfectly peaceful and content to burn an afternoon or thirty with making as consistent a handload as possible.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

UPDATE: long story short I don’t think my ES is from powder, at least it isn’t the main reason for my 40 ish ES

I used my original method (Intellidropper) and compared a dozen or charges against a Lyman brass smith reloading scale. Doubt it the best beam scale out there but can pick up when 2 grains are added so I’m assuming it’s good enough as a comaprsionn

The most I saw was a tenth of a grain off in the charges. Most were either good or within two kernels of being dead on.

So now the can of worms is opened… what is making me have approx double the ES of Hornady match ammo?


Current process:
0. Tried annealing and non annealing. Non saw a little lower ES
1. Lube case and ID of neck with one shot
2. Size brass with FL for with expander (I’ve also tried Redding body and Lee collet die, no difference in ES)
3. Clean brass with 91% alcohol and let dry
4. Seat primer 210M with Lee press, all are countersunk
5. Charge with powder H4350
6. Seat bullet with Hornady seater on the Lee press, try to pay attention to seating force

I’ve also tried just neck sizing, using imperial dry lube (moly) when seating in FL sized brass

I did a small test with Staball 6.5 and ES did go down to approx low/mid 30s

Using good Lapua and Peterson brass on two different 6.5cm

 

[Rob01]

Do you tumble to clean your brass? You can just toss the cases back in tumbler for 10-15 minutes to clean off One Shot. No need for alcohol.

Is your FL die a bushing die? What die? How much neck tension you getting?