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Beating a Dead Horse - LPVO 1-8 /1-10
- Thread starter Jeremiah Johnson
- Start date
Threw a curve ball. I ended up buying a Kahles k18i 1-8. Thanks for the recommendations.
I think thats the best option if you like sfp optics.
I wish the k18i-2 would have been ffp or dfp. For the price you'd think it was.
This right here is another thing that bothers me to no end. Why the fuck haven't more companies used Dual Focal Plane?
S&B has used it for years. 2FP for the illuminated portion and FFP for the rest. Burris also had that older LPVO that used it.
I get that it’s probably a pain to align perfectly. But, for $2.6k, I think it’s a reasonable want.
I think companies are uncertain of the value of DFP in most of their offerings. DFP makes great sense in high magnification ratio scopes like the 1:8 and 1:10. But in a Vortex Razor G3 6-36, or NF 7-35, S&B 5-25, etc with ratios in the 1:4, 1:5, 1:6 range I don’t think DFP is significantly better than a good FFP reticle design to make it worth added manufacturing costs.
The biggest question that doesn’t get asked enough in these threads is, “In what geographic region or type of terrain do you live?"
I noticed my preferences were a bit different living in PNW vs New England vs NC, whereas CO, UT, ID, and So Cal Mohave desert are all about the same.
For NC and New England, a more compact blaster without a lot of need for crazy magnification is fine. 11.5” carbine with RDS/Eotech, or 1-4x LPVO pretty much handles most things there for a 5.56 fire stick.
PNW is not that much different, until you come inland into Yakima, and now we’re looking at really far ranges where 5.56 struggles.
For Texas, the big thing is East vs West Texas and you’re into the same 2 boats. Compact blaster for East Texas, more well-rounded Precision Carbine for West with maybe more magnification, higher glass clarity.
If it’s for competition, then that changes things.
Will it be used for hunting? Another set of considerations.
The first things I look at now are durability/reputable brand that holds up on gas guns, then the reticle, then glass quality, then field-usable turrets (preferably capped or locking elevation/capped windage).
I noticed my preferences were a bit different living in PNW vs New England vs NC, whereas CO, UT, ID, and So Cal Mohave desert are all about the same.
For NC and New England, a more compact blaster without a lot of need for crazy magnification is fine. 11.5” carbine with RDS/Eotech, or 1-4x LPVO pretty much handles most things there for a 5.56 fire stick.
PNW is not that much different, until you come inland into Yakima, and now we’re looking at really far ranges where 5.56 struggles.
For Texas, the big thing is East vs West Texas and you’re into the same 2 boats. Compact blaster for East Texas, more well-rounded Precision Carbine for West with maybe more magnification, higher glass clarity.
If it’s for competition, then that changes things.
Will it be used for hunting? Another set of considerations.
The first things I look at now are durability/reputable brand that holds up on gas guns, then the reticle, then glass quality, then field-usable turrets (preferably capped or locking elevation/capped windage).
I’m thinking NC is pretty similar to Alabama; there are only two places where I have clear >200yard sight lines: power-line clearings, and PRS/CMP ranges. When I lived in Florida it wasn’t much different about the same sight lines but the swamp and sinkholes made the terrain much less enjoyable for any long range shooting outside of a couple private ranges.
I have a 6.5 Creedmoor with a LHT 4.5-22x scope for trying to shoot cute little groups at CMP but if I’m being honest with myself it feels about the same as floating an Ohio-class sub in my bathtub. I can get about 3MOA groupings(?) with a 556 AR-15 with an old Nikon scope on 6x at the 600yard max they have as it is but I just got tired of watching the old guys clover leaf with their 6.5 Creedmoor bolts all around me. Actually I’m just going attach some photos of what I do with the 556 AR-15 labled at 300 and 600 yards because I still don’t really know how to read what this thing means:
I have a 6.5 Creedmoor with a LHT 4.5-22x scope for trying to shoot cute little groups at CMP but if I’m being honest with myself it feels about the same as floating an Ohio-class sub in my bathtub. I can get about 3MOA groupings(?) with a 556 AR-15 with an old Nikon scope on 6x at the 600yard max they have as it is but I just got tired of watching the old guys clover leaf with their 6.5 Creedmoor bolts all around me. Actually I’m just going attach some photos of what I do with the 556 AR-15 labled at 300 and 600 yards because I still don’t really know how to read what this thing means:
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terrain like than certainly makes planning for self defense easier.
being in southern az i can walk out my door and have a view of the next neighborhood 500 yds away
the open desert is a blessing here. within 30mins of north tucson i can shoot out to 1000 yds
i have come to appreciate higher magnification alot more the past few years.
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He said it was for self defense. Self defense likely isn’t going to reach out as far as you can see; on top of the rifle being 5.56.
But for other CONOPS, your point absolutely should be a factor in weighing a trade space.
@tucaz On paper it should be, but never discount our ability to over complicate even straight forward situations.
When looking at <200yards the easy obvious answer is M4 556NATO. But just about everything else and it’s mom becomes “acceptable” as well: 300Blackout, 458SOCOM, 8.6Blackout, 6.8SPC, 6.5Grendel, 308Win, 338Federal, 9mm, 10mm, 762x39, 545x39, etc. These are just the semi-auto ones I commonly see people using as their self-defense rifle at local ranges (well maybe not 338Federal). I’m leaving out the 270win, 30-06spring, 300win bolt guys and the lever guys who are shooting god knows what.
When looking at <200yards the easy obvious answer is M4 556NATO. But just about everything else and it’s mom becomes “acceptable” as well: 300Blackout, 458SOCOM, 8.6Blackout, 6.8SPC, 6.5Grendel, 308Win, 338Federal, 9mm, 10mm, 762x39, 545x39, etc. These are just the semi-auto ones I commonly see people using as their self-defense rifle at local ranges (well maybe not 338Federal). I’m leaving out the 270win, 30-06spring, 300win bolt guys and the lever guys who are shooting god knows what.
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I have a small collection of LPVOs; I'm not sure it has risen to the point of "I have a problem," but... maybe.
I had an early version of the NX8 MOA and wanted to like it but even after sending it back for a checkup at NF, could never really get rid of the edge fisheye. Recently, I took a gamble on the new DMx version, and have found it to be *much* better. Where I had a hard time not noticing the fisheye on the old one, the new one is more seamless. And the revised smaller center dot size is much better for precision.
While the scope does have its downsides, I find the illumination--very important to me--to be genuinely amazing. Ive not had a Vortex 1-10, but otherwise its equal or better than anything Ive seen. The size and weight and balance of the scope is nice. I also much prefer the zoom ring to the ATACR.
The ATACR is easier on the eye when shouldering. And its a better scope. ButI still like the (newer) NX8.
To one of your questions about the worth of the ATACR over the NX8, I think it will depend on how much time you spend on the higher magnification and how much value you put on the NX probably being a bit slower coming up for a good sight picture. (can you "train" that away? does the weight matter? do the looks matter--the NX is proportionally a good looking scope?)
The PLXc fixes many of the NX8's weak points, but I like the reticle less and the illumination... just doesn't work for me. The bezel *does* disappear in a way that it doesn't for the NX8.
The Kahles 1-6 is clear and bright, nice eye box and good illumination (daylight, yes, but I wouldn't call it nuclear bright). And I have come to like FFP...
I had an early version of the NX8 MOA and wanted to like it but even after sending it back for a checkup at NF, could never really get rid of the edge fisheye. Recently, I took a gamble on the new DMx version, and have found it to be *much* better. Where I had a hard time not noticing the fisheye on the old one, the new one is more seamless. And the revised smaller center dot size is much better for precision.
While the scope does have its downsides, I find the illumination--very important to me--to be genuinely amazing. Ive not had a Vortex 1-10, but otherwise its equal or better than anything Ive seen. The size and weight and balance of the scope is nice. I also much prefer the zoom ring to the ATACR.
The ATACR is easier on the eye when shouldering. And its a better scope. ButI still like the (newer) NX8.
To one of your questions about the worth of the ATACR over the NX8, I think it will depend on how much time you spend on the higher magnification and how much value you put on the NX probably being a bit slower coming up for a good sight picture. (can you "train" that away? does the weight matter? do the looks matter--the NX is proportionally a good looking scope?)
The PLXc fixes many of the NX8's weak points, but I like the reticle less and the illumination... just doesn't work for me. The bezel *does* disappear in a way that it doesn't for the NX8.
The Kahles 1-6 is clear and bright, nice eye box and good illumination (daylight, yes, but I wouldn't call it nuclear bright). And I have come to like FFP...
In my experience the eye box on the razor Gen 3 seems noticeably tighter than the Gen 2 on 1x. It also has more distortion/fish eye. Enough to really annoy me. I prefer the Gen 2 to the Gen 3 on 1x by a significant margin, though neither would be my top choice. There is no consensus on any of this stuff on internet forums. I suspect that there is variation between different specimens of a given scope, as well as variation in the eyes and brains of observers.
Sounds like you’ve decided, but if not, I can’t recommend the S&B Dual CC enough. Yes, very expensive. And yes, heavy as hell. Doesn’t matter when you’re eyeball’s behind the ocular though.
Fantastic scope.
I also have an NX8. For the money, I’m extremely pleased with how well it works…not sure the ATACR is worth the extra $$ for my needs.
Fantastic scope.
I also have an NX8. For the money, I’m extremely pleased with how well it works…not sure the ATACR is worth the extra $$ for my needs.
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The PLX-C is a great optical design but the reticles suck IMO. PA has a bizarre obsession with combining chevrons (which suck for precision) and multiple ranging ladders/trees. It's like 75% of the reticle isn't even there for shooting.
I'm tempted to swap my PLX-C to an NX8 for the improved reticle and just learn to deal with the compromised optical design.
I'm tempted to swap my PLX-C to an NX8 for the improved reticle and just learn to deal with the compromised optical design.
For the rifle with the S&B who makes that upper and handguard?Sounds like you’ve decided, but if not, I can’t recommend the S&B Dual CC enough. Yes, very expensive. And yes, heavy as hell. Doesn’t matter when you’re eyeball’s behind the ocular though.
Fantastic scope.
I also have an NX8. For the money, I’m extremely pleased with how well it works…not sure the ATACR is worth the extra $$ for my needs.
Aero Precision. Wanted a hand guard that I could fit my slimmer-profile cans under.
Trijicon Credo 1-8 power, MRAD FFP (euro optic PRS member sub $1K currently, bought mine for ~$1275 when it first launched)
I use this on a 16" 556 DMR. PRS Practice, Coyote, Deer at times. Light gathering is great for low light hunting and shooting, turrets work well. Great scope but rarely use it on 1 power unless tagging steel up close using RED illumination. Typically use 2-8 power levels and the FFP is basically a useless feature on LPVO's. I'll get some hate for that comment. Next time I would stick to a 2-10 or 2.5-15 power optic and red dot. Just my 2 cents and late to the party.
Red: Daylight bright in full sun but could be brighter
Green: Daylight can get lost easily
1 Power: Reticle is too fine for use without magnification, with you have a segmented circle dot that is easy to use, EOtech ish.
8 Power: 100yds covers most of a 1" circle, a little course for real fine work
I use this on a 16" 556 DMR. PRS Practice, Coyote, Deer at times. Light gathering is great for low light hunting and shooting, turrets work well. Great scope but rarely use it on 1 power unless tagging steel up close using RED illumination. Typically use 2-8 power levels and the FFP is basically a useless feature on LPVO's. I'll get some hate for that comment. Next time I would stick to a 2-10 or 2.5-15 power optic and red dot. Just my 2 cents and late to the party.
It's a shame. The PLX-C is a great design that's really hampered by the reticle. I'm not all that concerned about illumination, I just want a clean and usable reticle like the FC-DMx or Athlon Helos 2-12.
Hopefully it shoots well.
As much as I wanted to like my Sig MCX, it shot like ass…
Which generation MCX?Hopefully it shoots well.
As much as I wanted to like my Sig MCX, it shot like ass…
Yeah. This is the newest iteration. It looks like they figured out the MCXSpeer line.
Also I have a Geiselle trigger in this one.
Also I have a Geiselle trigger in this one.
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From what I've read its time consuming to align the FFP reticle perfectly with the SFP reticle. Even my March shorty DFP 1-10 isn't absolutely perfectly aligned.
However there are number of things I like about that shorty compared to the four other LPVO's I've owned though they were not the nicer ones which I haven't looked through.
I wish the Helos G2 2-12 was lighter but if someone doesn't absolutely need 1x or daylight bright illume its a great choice and not the least of which is the price these go for.
Living in Arizona the only times I'm on 1x with my March is in 3 gun matches or at the house. Otherwise I use my 2-12's more by a times four ratio because I'm shooting farther distances and 12x is surprisingly that much more pleasing to have vs 10x.
Hopefully it shoots well.
As much as I wanted to like my Sig MCX, it shot like ass…
lol. oh ya? how’s that story go?
I am wondering this myself. I had a Burris XTR II 1-8X28. It had a DFP where the horseshoe dot illumination stayed the same size, and only the tree was FFP. Daggum thing wouldn't stop shedding the anodizing off the interior of the scope tube though, and black spec would appear all over the objective lens. Sent to Burris for an exchange on another optic.
It seems SFP at 1X or slammed to max power to use the reticle features at distance is what I think works best. No hunting for the FFP reticle for snap/close shots, or fucking up and not having the reticle illuminated, or it gets knocked of illumination. Tree reticles for a 1-8/10? How about a KISS reticle with .5mil to 2mil for wind. 18" stadia BDC for ranging bodies. I think the Vortex Gen II JM reticle was a good KISS reticle.
My long time favorite relatively simple LPVO reticle. I always found the Razors JM reticle let me down in any kind of wind at all. This one picks up where the Razor left off with a decently thin BDC tree that disappears when you're not looking at it but gives you a lot more info than the JM. The big center dot makes it less reliant on illumination also.
C3 1-6x24 Competition Rifle Scope
The C3 1-6x24 Competition Rifle Scope was designed around the AR platform, for competition and recreational shooting. Inspired by World Champion shooter Todd Jarrett, the TJ1I competition reticle provides an illuminated center Red dot and bullet drop subtensions for instant points of aim out to...
cmore.com
Learn something new everyday!Been beating the hell out of these things for years. The toughest scope you've never heard of. Both of mine have dents and aluminum shavings from other guns in them and they keep on going.View attachment 8261124C3 1-6x24 Competition Rifle Scope
The C3 1-6x24 Competition Rifle Scope was designed around the AR platform, for competition and recreational shooting. Inspired by World Champion shooter Todd Jarrett, the TJ1I competition reticle provides an illuminated center Red dot and bullet drop subtensions for instant points of aim out to...cmore.com
ETA: So, no 77SMK calibrated reticle is a bummer on his one for me. I ran the numbers and too far off to run 77SMK.
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Reminds me of the Bushnell SMRS. I like the reticle style a lot, but wish it was a generic mil scale for the vertical vs. random BDC
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For what it's worth, and it is definitely below the price range you are looking at, but the vortex pst2 1-6 is a decent scope. It is sfp, and that is my only gripe with it. It holds zero, 6x is more than enough to make hits to 500yds with a 223, unless you are looking for a precision LPVO. I keep it set to about 1.4 for next to the bed, that seems to be where it's about a true 1x in home defense ranges. I have used it pretty good, wether bouncing around in the pickup, training classes, or hunting.
That one slipped passed me. I like that reticle more than most of what’s out there in LPVOs.
I’ve really enjoyed the GRSC reticles on AR-15s:
That one is set up for 175gr M118LR from a 16” 7.62 NATO at 1000ft elevation. I use it on my 12” 6.5 Grendel. It’s a 1-6x24, Japanese LOW-built scope. Those dots on the outside of the tree are mil dots, so you can reference off a ballistics program and move over to determine drop if they don’t match up. 123gr 6.5 Grendel matches 175gr SMK almost like a mirror, so you get hits either way on 12-18” plates.
At the last DM course, I went 3/3 at 780yds using the dot above the 800yd stadia line, then made a 1st-round hit using the 900yd line and a guesstimate wind hold with one of the 10” dashes. Everything is 10” on that reticle in the tree. Circles, spaces, and dashes are all 10”. It just feels really intuitive.
I wish this reticle was in my Razor 1-10x Gen III so bad. I panic-bought the MOA version in 2020, haven’t even mounted it on anything. I would have mounted immediately had I gotten the MRAD version I think. I don’t have anything that is handicapped to the limits of the tree with the MOA Gen III, other than 5.56, and I don’t want to mount it on any of my 5.56 blasters for some reason.
I wish we could get a custom run of reticles in the Gen III, maybe in that new shorty 1-10x the UK got in their contract with the KAC carbine. That set-up is sick.
Do you have the diopter adjusted properly? I have three different PST G2's set up for three different pairs of eyes, and everyone was able to adjust for a true 1x.
There are a lot of threads in the optics section on LPVO's. Here is one which was based on a discussion I had with Terry Cross trying to figure out what LPVO I wanted for my comp rifle.
I eventually just decided to try a Steiner M8Xi because at the time nobody seemed to have one and give a review so I figured that I would give it a shot.
I visited Terry at his shop one time and looked through one of Terry's NF ATACR and liked it. The ATACR had a nice bright illuminated reticle.
My Steiner M8Xi has to me, really bright/clear glass. The eye box seems very forgiving. the illuminated reticle is anemic at best, however I was told to try a different battery and have not tried it yet. The guy that recommended the different battery said that I would be very pleased with the results.
Good luck on your hunt, eventually you have to just pick one but for a while when I was looking at LPVO's I suffered from what Horta called paralysis by analysis.
www.snipershide.com
I eventually just decided to try a Steiner M8Xi because at the time nobody seemed to have one and give a review so I figured that I would give it a shot.
I visited Terry at his shop one time and looked through one of Terry's NF ATACR and liked it. The ATACR had a nice bright illuminated reticle.
My Steiner M8Xi has to me, really bright/clear glass. The eye box seems very forgiving. the illuminated reticle is anemic at best, however I was told to try a different battery and have not tried it yet. The guy that recommended the different battery said that I would be very pleased with the results.
Good luck on your hunt, eventually you have to just pick one but for a while when I was looking at LPVO's I suffered from what Horta called paralysis by analysis.
Rifle Scopes - Why do you think an adjustable parallax feature is needed on LPVOs? ? ?
Starting this thread to avoid derailing another thread further.... I would like to hear why you think this is needed. Why is it important to you to have an adjustable parallax feature on a LPVO considering what their basic space in the tool box is cut out to be? I have a couple of 1-8x ATACRs...
www.snipershide.com
@dms416
i’ll take “what to trolls post for $100”
or you can elaborate on what ass means.
seems like comprehension is more of an issue with you.
[/QUOTE]
I can comprehend it’s a waste of my time to argue with an autistic mcx fanboy that just wants to argue over a sample of one 4moa piece of sig shit.
I can comprehend it’s a waste of my time to argue with an autistic mcx fanboy that just wants to argue over a sample of one 4moa piece of sig shit.
[/QUOTE]
see. now we know you are full of shit.
you dont see me on the sig thread gizzing all over them. i just know bullshit when it see it.
carry on mr autistic.
What mount is the NX8 on?Sounds like you’ve decided, but if not, I can’t recommend the S&B Dual CC enough. Yes, very expensive. And yes, heavy as hell. Doesn’t matter when you’re eyeball’s behind the ocular though.
Fantastic scope.
I also have an NX8. For the money, I’m extremely pleased with how well it works…not sure the ATACR is worth the extra $$ for my needs.
