Re: Bedding epoxies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well hell it appears that every gunsmith worth his salt has been wasting time and over charging his customers for a bedding job that wasen't needed. </div></div>
What else is new?
Get those gunsmiths to charge, not for the bedding job, but for the improvement in groups.
If there were truthful advertising from honest men, .01" improvement for $200, would not be too popular.
Bedding would fade in a hurry from the gun culture mythology common ritual list.
But don't worry, the crooks will keep finding suckers.
A Volvo with lose spark plug wire was taken to car repair businesses across the country. 50% of car repair places gave very high repair estimates. That means the other 50% were honest.
The gunsmith profession has a long way to go to clean up the ethics to catch up to the car repair biz.
Randy Ketchum has a bible on his counter top. When a customer comes in and wants gunsmiths for accuracy improvements, he tells them that most of the work he wants will have no effect.
How often do gunsmiths behave like that?
It's not that they are so dishonest, it that they are so dumb. They think they are helping.
Most of those car places were ready to do lots of work, not out of fraud, but out of ignorance.
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Before:
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As for ethics and gunsmithing. This trade is based on reputation. It's a small community compared to other trades. You start screwing people and the phone stops ringing and dust begins to settle on the shop equipment. Take a gander at the thread list under this section. There was one who was feeling these effects just recently.
Auto repair? Ethical? Hardly. I worked at a Ford Dealership once as a service tech. I know exactly how that game is played. Medical industry? Funny how Dr's prescribe, prescribe, prescribe these days. Wonder why that is exactly?
I am one of the few gunsmiths that makes no accuracy claim on the guns I build. Never have and never will. I equate to a male endowment contest. I base the quality of my work on the visual presentation and the number of event wins in the Olympic, World, International, and National level arena in a variety of competitive shooting disciplines.
Records are meant to be broken and I don't tout myself to be "all knowing". I'm simply reinforcing that I must be doing <span style="font-style: italic">something</span> right. There are a long line of other gunsmiths out there who are doing it right also.
I spent three years working almost exclusively on International smallbore rifles for some of the top trigger pullers in the world. All I can say is bedding <span style="font-style: italic">WORKS</span> and bedding done at the level I strive for works <span style="font-style: italic">better.</span>
Sheri Gallagher's 2013 Anschutz was a 12.5mm gun when she brought it to me. When it was given back to her it shot 9.8mm
-Two tenths larger than the hardest hitting 3p rifle ever known. (9.6mm 10x group: Carl Kenyon-gunsmith Pat McMillan-barrel maker Russian Olymp-ammunition (this was back in the 70's!)
Mathew Emmons won two gold medals with a rifle I built for him. (if you know the whole story then you know I actually built "two" guns in a matter of speaking) That rifle is a solid 10mm gun.
I can promise anyone here that bedding made a significant difference with both of these rifles. Does it take a pigs ear and turn it into a silk purse? Absolutely not and anyone who says it does is full of crap. It will however make a great gun exceptional.
Want more?
Cathy Winstead. Multi-World Smallbore silhouette champion, Multi-time International Silhouette champion, and multi-time US and Canadian Smallbore Silhouette champion. Prior to getting married I built her gun(s) for her. Heavy and light. Both were bedded because it <span style="font-style: italic">made a difference</span>
Kyle Leibertrau
2007 World junior Palma Champion. I doubt seriously he'd be holding 1/3rd minute elevation at 1K with his palma rifle if it wasn't bedded. I <span style="font-style: italic">know</span> it wouldn't.
Everything I (and most other smiths for that matter) do to a rifle involved at this level of the playing field is done for a reason. Alan Warner, Alex Sitman, myself, etc have all come up with reasons; not based on conjecture, internet opinion, or guidance from a Ouija board. It's based on experience from doing this for a long time.
Can a rifle fitted to a conventional stock (ignoring alloy chassis and high durometer rubber thingy's for the moment) be made to shoot as well as one that is bedded? Yes, it can.
IF:
You have the software to accurately model and then program a CNC milling center to surface machine the inlets. It can be done. I own a 22-250 done just this way that will scare you to death. I've also done a few Dakota Arms actions this way when I worked for them. They all shot very well. However it's not an easy thing to do when your concerned with the final presentation of the gun. It's also a fair amount of machine time and that's expensive. -Just as expensive as making a casting (bedding)
I'd be willing to bet that gunsmiths would take the path of least resistance. If there was a way to ensure the accuracy AND the final presentation by avoiding having to bed an action to a stock they'd (we'd) already be doing it.
Facts are facts and all the fancy engineering math in the world can be met with one simple statement:
Put up or shut up.
Let the score card decide what works and what doesn't.
Comments welcomed.
Chad
Chad Dixon
Gunmaker,
LongRifles, Inc.