Before I ruin this nice brass how are the cool kids resizing?

[louu]

I've been reloading for a long time and always did it the old school way with just simple Lee dies.

I just bought 300 pieces of 308 lapua brass, filled them up and shot them at my first real PRS match. Had a great time and I think I'm hooked.

Should I just use my regular FL sizing die, seat a new bullet and go or is there some new sizing die and neck tool or something I don't know about?

Thanks everyone!

 

[hafejd30]

I use Lee collet/Redding body combo with excellent results

This combo produces some of the best runout control I’ve seen. Easy on the brass as well. I use for 308, 6.5, 260 and 300 WM

 

[themightytimmah]

For the practical accuracy constraints of PRS (time, positional shooting, wind calling), what you’re doing now likely produces ammo that’s better than necessary.

308 is pretty easy on brass and any chambering issues will cost you time on the clock and points, so I wouldn’t worry about the impact of always FL sizing either.

 

[morning would]

For my 308 I am reloading both FGMM brass fired from my rifle and new Lapua LRP brass using a simple Hornady die set that runs like $50 from Cabela’s or Sportsman’s warehouse, etc. been working fine for me and no issues getting great accuracy doing it this way.

 

[Taylorbok]

Regular sizing die will be fine but most people these days are running a bushing die and a separate expander mandrel, depends if you wanna go down the rabbit hole or not. Also if you wanna spend the money or not, if you are gonna stick with PRS i'd bet your next move will be to a dasher (or variant) so maybe just hang off until you're sure.

 

[918v]

You should get a die or combination of dies that do not size the neck so much. A standard FL die sizes the neck down to .328” and then opens it back up to whatever, depending on neck thickness. That’s fine if you’re using Winchester brass with its super thin necks, but causes neck tension issues with thick brass like Lapua, meaning too much and making it hard to seat bullets. That’s why people go to bushing dies and Lee collet neck dies or custom neck diameter honed dies.

 

[acudaowner]

never though of my self as one of the "cool kids" but factory hornady brass with 11 reloads on them now and still going no annealing yet only loss was a few I crushed learning to use a expander mandrel die . I just use the die body so the case will hold another bullet , expand the neck to the tightness I want , clean said brass trim , chamfer , and debur . prime mark what I am loading on the brass and a 3x5 card , add powder and a new bullet and press take to range shoot , then de prime starting the circle of life over and over again . it's not the only way to do it just the way we got working for us and it works extreamly well so for now why change it .
best of luck to you figuring out what you like and don't like .

 

[supercorndogs]

I am pretty cool bobby.

I use standard FL dies mostly. 918v makes some good points about reasons to size differently. I have collet dies for most calibers. They are pretty good at sqeezing wrinkles out of necks. I will usually collet size my 300wm brass for a few firings until it fills the chamber.

Shooting p-dogs with my 223 I shot the same 100 peices of brass one day 3 times. I collet sized it each time.

If your ammo was plenty accurate. I would carry on shooting and reloading. Make sure not to bump your shoulders too much and that brass will last a long time. 10 should be easy which should get you around 3000 rounds.

By that time you will understand why people say three oh hate.

 

[Sig Marine]

Because of the quality and consistency of Lapua brass, many remove the expander ball and use a FL die with neck bushing; I use the Redding Type “S” Full Length dies. I’ve never seen or had the need to perform an extra step and use a mandrel on my necks

 

[kthomas]

I have really come to like Whidden's click adjustable FL sizers.

I have not seen a need to perform an extra step and run an expander mandrel separately from sizing.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

I generally body size and then use an appropriate neck bushing.

I realize that some don't ascribe to this method, but that's what I do, however I'm just a hack.

Chris

 

[Forrest84]

Using both Redding type s bushing full length sizers and whidden click adjust full length bushing sizers and they produce great ammo.

 

[Baron23]

Regular sizing die will be fine but most people these days are running a bushing die and a separate expander mandrel, depends if you wanna go down the rabbit hole or not. Also if you wanna spend the money or not, if you are gonna stick with PRS i'd bet your next move will be to a dasher (or variant) so maybe just hang off until you're sure.

But…but…you don’t need a bushing die in order to use a mandrel, right? Just pull the expander ball out then use the proper size mandrel. I’m no expert and this is what I’m doing now and collecting data to see if mandrel cases provide more consistent ES/SD.

 

[4O6shootist]

But…but…you don’t need a bushing die in order to use a mandrel, right? Just pull the expander ball out then use the proper size mandrel. I’m no expert and this is what I’m doing now and collecting data to see if mandrel cases provide more consistent ES/SD.

Measure your neck after you fl size before mandrel. Then after you mandrel. That's how much you're over-working the brass. I'd get a forster fl die that's custom honed to have a neck diameter 003 under loaded neck diameter. Or a bushing die, they let you choose you're neck tension. Bushings are cheaper than custom mandrels. I load from 22br to 338 rum, I have a small fortune in bushings, and I have mandrels too. I use mandrels with brass that has inconsist neck thickness, cuz I hate turning.

 

[HMRamateur]

But…but…you don’t need a bushing die in order to use a mandrel, right? Just pull the expander ball out then use the proper size mandrel. I’m no expert and this is what I’m doing now and collecting data to see if mandrel cases provide more consistent ES/SD.

I saw decent results doing that as well

 

[Campguy308]

I use Lee collet/Redding body combo with excellent results

This combo produces some of the best runout control I’ve seen. Easy on the brass as well. I use for 308, 6.5, 260 and 300 WM

This is the method I use as well with excellent results. After firing, I lube body with imperial wax, size in redding body die with it set to about a .002 shoulder bump. Then I tumble in corn cob, remove and run thru the Lee collet neck die, then rotate the case and squeeze it a second time. Make sure no corn cob stuck in flash hole, prime and load.

 

[Rocketmandb]

collecting data to see if mandrel cases provide more consistent ES/SD.

I did a fair amount of data gathering on this and posted the results here:

Mandrel Musings

When I first got my K&M arbor press for seating, I was somewhat surprised at the spread of the values of force required to seat bullets. Knowing that neck tension plays a significant role in ES/SD, I started doing various things to try to bring seating force in line. I had been doing most my...

www.snipershide.com

Right now I'm gathering data on different neck lubes.

 

[BobKaare]

I just use a Lee collet die, no body die.
Did a seating depth test to see what my rifle liked with brake instead of suppressor, had some POI shift to the right, but found a load it really liked.

 

[supercorndogs]

Collet die and no body sizing doesn't work forever. The more pressure, the shorter time it works.

 

[BobKaare]

Collet die and no body sizing doesn't work forever. The more pressure, the shorter time it works.

Don't expect it to, just hope it keeps me going until the barrel is burnt out.
Don't want to buy nice dies for a cartridge I'll dump when I get a new barrel.
Will probably make the move over to 6.5x47 Lapua next, .243 isn't practical here in Norway, hard to get components, and it's a barrel burner.

 

[FredHammer]

I saw decent results doing that as well

Same here. My Redding dies without decapper assembly size brass ID .004 under caliber and I mandrel to .0015-.002 interference fit. I anneal every firing, things going good so far.

 

[supercorndogs]

Don't expect it to, just hope it keeps me going until the barrel is burnt out.
Don't want to buy nice dies for a cartridge I'll dump when I get a new barrel.
Will probably make the move over to 6.5x47 Lapua next, .243 isn't practical here in Norway, hard to get components, and it's a barrel burner.

243 Winchester? What does the 56 and 56.4 on your target represent?

 

[BobKaare]

243 Winchester? What does the 56 and 56.4 on your target represent?

Base to ogive in mm.
Yeah, 243 win, having trouble finding bullets that work well with the 1-10 twist rate.
95 gr Berger classic hunters seem to be the best so far, and I can get enough to shoot out this barrel.

 

[supercorndogs]

I am used to seeing powder charge written like that. But it obviously shouldn't be powder charge weight.

 

[louu]

Guys you all are amazing, thank you so much for all the tips.

Is the redding die really that much better than the Lee die?

 

[hafejd30]

Guys you all are amazing, thank you so much for all the tips.

Is the redding die really that much better than the Lee die?

The collet die is awesome. When set up correctly. Never used their other dies

It’s very simple, no lube and won’t form donuts

I’ve used both in several calibers. My preference is Lee collet/Redding body combo. Or just the collet for a few firings until you need to body size

Next I’d use a Redding without expander. Size .003 on the neck then run a expander mandrel to finish.

Both produce very little runout and won’t overwork the brass.

 

[supercorndogs]

I wish everyone would take note of how Lee makes their expander and decapper. I used to use one a Lee FL for 223, but I switched away just because it was Lee. I am using some Lee dies for my 6 Arc because even though I like Hornady dies. I wasn't paying 80 dollars for them. so far I like them pretty well. I just put a Hornday split locking ring on the FL die and Seater and off I went. The Lee expander is very smooth coming back through the neck.

 

[hafejd30]

I wish everyone would take note of how Lee makes their expander and decapper. I used to use one a Lee FL for 223, but I switched away just because it was Lee. I am using some Lee dies for my 6 Arc because even though I like Hornady dies. I wasn't paying 80 dollars for them. so far I like them pretty well. I just put a Hornday split locking ring on the FL die and Seater and off I went. The Lee expander is very smooth coming back through the neck.

Anyone who uses any Lee dies should automatically include new lock rings in their purchase as well

Those oring type they come with are crap

 

[Taylorbok]

Anyone who uses any Lee dies should automatically include new lock rings in their purchase as well

Those oring type they come with are crap

most lock rings are trash. Only good ones I've used are Hornady and Whidden.

 

[FredHammer]

Guys you all are amazing, thank you so much for all the tips.

Is the redding die really that much better than the Lee die?

Oh yes.

 

[hafejd30]

most lock rings are trash. Only good ones I've used are Hornady and Whidden.

The hornady ones are what I typically use as well. Think the Forster ones are the same. Basically the cross bolt design. I’ve seen plenty of brass set screw style get jacked up and locked onto dies as well

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Guys you all are amazing, thank you so much for all the tips.

Is the redding die really that much better than the Lee die?

No.

I would ignore most of the advise in here. A large number of them are not high accuracy/competitive shooters, or they wouldn't be giving you 30+ year old advise.

Get you a good Bushing Full Length sizing die. Measure your brass, and get the corresponding bushing AND mandrel that gets you your desired neck tension (.001-.003 depending on if Bolt or semi).

Redding is overpriced shit. If you want a great set, the RCBS Matchmaster FL bushing die set with micrometer seater CANNOT be beat for the price. Around $150 for the set or $75 if you are mil/leo.

If you don't want the set, IMO Wilson makes the finest FL bushing dies before you get into the gucci stuff like Widden, SAC, ect. They are around $100 and machined perfectly. Forster makes a great micrometer seater to pair with it, and you can get both for under $200.

Pick up a 21st century or Sinclair Mandrel die and the corresponding mandrel.

What you are doing when you size is pushing the neck back ever so slighly (.002-.004) to ensure reliable feeding while not overworking the brass. When you you fire, the case expands to the chamber due to brass's ductility then springs back ever so slightly. The spring back is not enough to ensure reliable chambering of the round, so you have to size it. Then the mandrel uniforms the neck and opens it back up to propper neck tension. Think of it as pushing and then pulling.

Now if you really want to go gucci and save some time, Pick up the SAC FL Modular Sizer. Its going to hurt the pocket book, but you can add an integral mandrel inside the sizer so its one operation instead of 2.

Virtually everyone shooting at a high level is doing some variation of the above, with many adding annealing into the process. We do it because its reliable, repeatable and just plain works.

Your SD/ES will drop a great deal once you control neck tension and no longer will you have to worry about hard chambering or not being able to chamber.

Go talk to guys at your next match , the actual good shooters, and they will tell you what I just said.

 

[Baron23]

I would ignore most of the advice in here. A large number of them are not high accuracy/competitive shooters, or they wouldn't be giving you 30+ year old advice.

Oooooh, oooooh….are you a for real high accuracy/ competitive shooter? Oooooh, oooooh.

FFS….didn’t take you long to return to form.

 

[hafejd30]

Oooooh, oooooh….are you a for real high accuracy/ competitive shooter? Oooooh, oooooh.

FFS….didn’t take you long to return to form.

Has number 374 returned to grace us with his wisdom

I’m not going to say he’s wrong. The Lee collet/Redding body die is old school compared to today’s standard. But it works and works very well

Learning to read wind and in general just dry firing and shooting can help more than anything if your setup is shooting good already

600 yard/260/5 shot/with peasant Lee collet die

 

[AirgunnerPCP]

Unless you're shooting benchrest or some other high precision shooting sport, FL size and go is probably fine. In PRS the name of the game is making a good wind call, solid positional and being able to make corrections. None of that requires ultra precision.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Oooooh, oooooh….are you a for real high accuracy/ competitive shooter? Oooooh, oooooh.

FFS….didn’t take you long to return to form.

Feel free to tell me what I am wrong about. Or just keep attacking because your feelings got hurt.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Unless you're shooting benchrest or some other high precision shooting sport, FL size and go is probably fine. In PRS the name of the game is making a good wind call, solid positional and being able to make corrections. None of that requires ultra precision.

Then why are virtually all the mid to top shooters doing whats above for PRS? Benchrest is a whole other magnitude of anal from what I discussed. Things like weighing cases, sorting bullets, turning necks, custom reamers, loading at the firing line ect is what is overkill for PRS. Hell some even cut partial kernals with a knife to ensure the most consistent loads. Some prs guys do that too, but most don't. It becomes a game of diminishing returns.

Now you can argue if you want, but you are wrong. Today, with the plate sizes and time restraints, accuracy is VERY important. The difference between a 3/8 and 3/4 MOA gun is going to be alot of points on the 1-1.5 moa plates you see at matches now. Its basic statistics. Add wind and unstable shooting positions, and you are leaving points on the table that you shouldn't.

This is not PRS from a decade ago where the plates were huge, you had more time, and the shooters were much worse than they are today.

From a statistical standpoint, you need all the practical accuracy you can get to get every point. You will slip shots of the plate with a spread like that. It may be 1 point or may be 10, depends on the COF and other factors. Either way, its something we can control relatively easy, which is why people do it.

If you are not controlling neck tension, you are leaving more than your 100 yard groups on the table. Long range accuracy lives and dies by your ES/SD.

I don't know why people want to argue about this, or why I even waste time explaining it. If people want to stay ignorant, then let them.

 

[AirgunnerPCP]

Then why are virtually all the mid to top shooters doing whats above for PRS? Benchrest is a whole other magnitude of anal from what I discussed. Things like weighing cases, sorting bullets, turning necks, custom reamers, loading at the firing line ect is what is overkill for PRS. Hell some even cut partial kernals with a knife to ensure the most consistent loads. Some prs guys do that too, but most don't. It becomes a game of diminishing returns.

Now you can argue if you want, but you are wrong.

Since you've already decided I'm wrong I won't waste much time on this.

Just because a lot of people do something does not mean it's correct. Reloading is a rabbit hole and folks chase the next best thing hoping to improve their performance. 3/4-1/2 MOA rifle is all you need in my opinion: https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/15/how-much-does-group-size-matter/

Also if you're dead set on following the crowd, why not follow the guy who cleaned a 2 day? He's doing a lot less brass prep than most it seems. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2023...ess-austin-buschman-shooter-spotlight-part-3/

 

[BobKaare]

I am used to seeing powder charge written like that. But it obviously shouldn't be powder charge weight.

Yeah, I wouldn't feel comfortable putting my face behind that
Just got my reloading gear for .308, with Triebel full length sizing die, pretty excited to see how that works.

 

[JerkyFreak]

...

Also if you're dead set on following the crowd, why not follow the guy who cleaned a 2 day? He's doing a lot less brass prep than most it seems. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2023...ess-austin-buschman-shooter-spotlight-part-3/

Thanks for this link. And there I thought I was the only lazy reloader around...

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Since you've already decided I'm wrong I won't waste much time on this.

Just because a lot of people do something does not mean it's correct. Reloading is a rabbit hole and folks chase the next best thing hoping to improve their performance. 3/4-1/2 MOA rifle is all you need in my opinion: https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/15/how-much-does-group-size-matter/

Also if you're dead set on following the crowd, why not follow the guy who cleaned a 2 day? He's doing a lot less brass prep than most it seems. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2023...ess-austin-buschman-shooter-spotlight-part-3/

VIRTUALLY. Now go look at the other top 50 shooters and ask them what they are doing. How many are not using a bushing die of some sort?


The only thing bushman doesn't do is use a mandrel. Using a $400 SAC die and bushing. He induction anneals, and uses a Autotrickler. He is using all the best components to start with. He is probably leaving some SD/ES on the table by not using a mandrel but that is small factor compared to using a bushing die to control neck tension ,along with everything else.

 

[Campguy308]

Guys you all are amazing, thank you so much for all the tips.

Is the redding die really that much better than the Lee die?

Do you have the large primer 308 brass, or the small primer Palma cases?
One thing I will caution about the Lee dies, they generally use a large diameter decapper pin that is too big for the small flash holes used in some of the small primer Lapua cases. I have seen some flash holes messed up on lapua SRP brass with the Lee decapper rods.

Not sure if the 308 Palma cases use small flash hole or not, but my 6.5 creed Lapua SRP brass has the small flash hole. I had to turn down the decapper rod on my Lee collet die to make it fit.

Just something to be aware of.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Is the redding die really that much better than the Lee die?

If I were getting a 308 die (and I did recently), I would go with:

Full Length Sizing Die - Interchangeable Bushing-FLD-

I have a Redding sitting on the shelf because it couldn't get me consistent shoulder bump.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

If I were getting a 308 die (and I did recently), I would go with:

Full Length Sizing Die - Interchangeable Bushing-FLD-

I have a Redding sitting on the shelf because it couldn't get me consistent shoulder bump.

I have destroyed 2 redding bushing dies via stuck case. They are machined like absolute shit and will bite on the case if there is not enough lube. The surface finish on them is atrocious. After spending hours trying to get them unstuck, its cheaper to throw them away and buy a proper die.

Upgraded them with Wilson, which doesn't need anywhere near as much lube, easier to adjust, more consistent bump and you can just tell by looking at them how well they are designed and machined. A steal at $100 compared to the rest of the Market IMO.

 

[CK1.0]

In general, a die is a die… it’s just a machined cylinder of steel.

Some may claim to be better steel, some may claim to be machined more precisely, but in the end they all do the same things, and like most things in this sport, it’s the monkey pulling the trigger that matters more than anything else.

You can buy $300-600+ dies if you want, but chances are more than likely they won’t do anything more or much different than a $20 Lee die. I own dies from Lee, Redding, Wilson, Hornady, etc and have made excellent ammo with all of them, the only die I ever had that didn’t work correctly and that I returned was from Mighty Armory, a maker some might call fancy/boutique.

Remember, guys around here will tell you that you need a $1200 A419 Zero press to load good ammo… meanwhile, the best shooter in the PRS loads his shit on a ~$100 Lee turret press.

 

[louu]

Do you have the large primer 308 brass, or the small primer Palma cases?
One thing I will caution about the Lee dies, they generally use a large diameter decapper pin that is too big for the small flash holes used in some of the small primer Lapua cases. I have seen some flash holes messed up on lapua SRP brass with the Lee decapper rods.

Not sure if the 308 Palma cases use small flash hole or not, but my 6.5 creed Lapua SRP brass has the small flash hole. I had to turn down the decapper rod on my Lee collet die to make it fit.

Just something to be aware of.

Good tip thank you. It's the large primer, it is awesome how nice the flash holes are compared to normal ammo. I definitely don't want to mess them up

 

[Baron23]

Feel free to tell me what I am wrong about. Or just keep attacking because your feelings got hurt.

You don't get it and it appears you never will.

Its not what you say that I disagree with. And apparently you didn't read my contribution to this thread....guess you were too busy formulating your missive of the TRUTH to the rabble.

Its the arrogant, condescending, insulting way you say it. I will note, however, you have been very consistent in this since Crabsandfootball to today.

I would ignore most of the advise in here.

A large number of them are not high accuracy/competitive shooters

giving you 30+ year old advise

Nobody here gives a shit about your participating in PRS matches. Actually, I can assure you that out of the well over 100,000 members of this forum very few give a flying fuck about PRS or think they have to genuflect to those who do.

If you can't see the objectionable nature of your behavior on this board, then you are truly blinded by your arrogance.

Please don't bother to reply. Frank may think you deserved a 2nd chance after being banned but all I see is more of the same and I don't really want to engage with you.

Carry on.

 

[CK1.0]

One thing that is probably worth mentioning when it comes to the subject of sizing is: bushing die vs regular FL die (vs SAC sizing die)?

I'm in the camp that thinks/believes that a regular FL die that doesn't squash the necks too much is probably best. That usually means ordering a custom-honed die. For instance, most off-the-shelf standard FL dies in 6mm will squash fired necks down to an OD of ~.360" which is pretty heavy-handed, while my custom-honed ones bring the fired necks down to an OD of .366".

The reason some like me feel a custom-honed FL die is better than a bushing die is that the bushing dies don't size the whole neck, leaving ~10% unsized near the shoulder, and thus leaving an area for a donut to form once the firing cycles pile up.

Referencing the PRB article on A.Buschman again, the Short Action Customs sizing die is like a third option... as their bushings aren't like standard bushings, the SAC bushings are unique in that their's are really "neck and shoulder bushings"... giving one the same effect as using a custom-honed FL die, while still being able to change/swap bushings instead of having to order/wait on a new custom die to be made.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You don't get it and it appears you never will.

Its not what you say that I disagree with. And apparently you didn't read my contribution to this thread....guess you were too busy formulating your missive of the TRUTH to the rabble.

Its the arrogant, condescending, insulting way you say it. I will note, however, you have been very consistent in this since Crabsandfootball to today.




Nobody here gives a shit about your participating in PRS matches. Actually, I can assure you that out of the well over 100,000 members of this forum very few give a flying fuck about PRS or think they have to genuflect to those who do.

If you can't see the objectionable nature of your behavior on this board, then you are truly blinded by your arrogance.

Please don't bother to reply. Frank may think you deserved a 2nd chance after being banned but all I see is more of the same and I don't really want to engage with you.

Carry on.

The OP asked about shooting PRS. Sorry that word triggers you but that is the reason it was brought up. You are right about one thing, a large portion of this website doesn't care and SHOULD be ignored as they are not educated enough. There is also a collection of some of the best minds and shooters in the community here, which should be listened to if you are wise enough to pick up what they are putting down. Everyone has a right to an opinion but they are not all worth the same.

Cool, you don't like my delivery. Grow thicker skin, ignore me or feel free to challenge.my statements. I am really starting to wonder if a large portion of people even shoot. It's easier to attack someone trying to put out learned experiences than go earn then for yourself.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

One thing that is probably worth mentioning when it comes to the subject of sizing is: bushing die vs regular FL die (vs SAC sizing die)?

I'm in the camp that thinks/believes that a regular FL die that doesn't squash the necks too much is probably best. That usually means ordering a custom-honed die. For instance, most off-the-shelf standard FL dies in 6mm will squash fired necks down to an OD of ~.360" which is pretty heavy-handed, while my custom-honed ones bring the fired necks down to an OD of .366".

The reason some like me feel a custom-honed FL die is better than a bushing die is that the bushing dies don't size the whole neck, leaving ~10% unsized near the shoulder, and thus leaving an area for a donut to form once the firing cycles pile up.

Referencing the PRB article on A.Buschman again, the Short Action Customs sizing die is like a third option... as their bushings aren't like standard bushings, the SAC bushings are unique in that their's are really "neck and shoulder bushings"... giving one the same effect as using a custom-honed FL die, while still being able to change/swap bushings instead of having to order/wait on a new custom die to be made.

That's why I am starting to think the SAC die is the one to go with. The price is a kick in the nuts but the bushing that resizes part of the shoulder does do something nothing else does. Add in the Integrated mandrel and you are saving a step vs traditional sizing + mandrel die.

The nice thing is since it's modular, one die works on the whole family of cartridges be it Creedmoor, GT or x47 , ect.

Everyone I have talked to raves about them, so that may be the next move.