Before I ruin this nice brass how are the cool kids resizing?

[SharpShooterSER]

Base to ogive in mm.
Yeah, 243 win, having trouble finding bullets that work well with the 1-10 twist rate.
95 gr Berger classic hunters seem to be the best so far, and I can get enough to shoot out this barrel.

Interesting. I tried 95gn ELDX for my XPR hunting rig, those are supposedly too heavy for 1-10, and could never get a great group. Its usable for hunting, but nothing past 200 meters, and per calculator at any speed they are marginally stable. On the other hand, I dont have the fancy dies (plain RCBS FL) for it like I have for my x47 Lapua nor the premium brass (Forster neck shoulder bump, 21st Century mandrel and Gold Medal RCBS seater, which gives me 111 mm groups on 500 meters at 20 shots).
Didnt want to hijack the thread, but this is the setup that works good for me - the 47L one, with Lapua brass, flame annealed every firing. And I am not much of a shooter, with a factory Sabatti TLD rifle and Vortex Golden Eagle, and 111 mm would put me in a 10 ring.

 

[CK1.0]

That's why I am starting to think the SAC die is the one to go with. The price is a kick in the nuts but the bushing that resizes part of the shoulder does do something nothing else does. Add in the Integrated mandrel and you are saving a step vs traditional sizing + mandrel die.

The nice thing is since it's modular, one die works on the whole family of cartridges be it Creedmoor, GT or x47 , ect.

Everyone I have talked to raves about them, so that may be the next move.

Personally, I'm on the fence about the SAC die... I don't see that it does anything magical that a custom-honed FL die wouldn't do, and unless one plans on sticking with a specific cartridge for a long time over many different lots of brass, I kind of think it falls into the black hole that exists for lots of us long-range-fancy-rifle-guys to throw money into when tricked into the old "more money = more performance" grift.

If someone gave me one or if I picked one up off a prize table, I'd use it, but $300 plus $35 for proprietary cartridge-specific bushings when I already own more than a few .243"/6mm traditional bushings that work with any other .243"/6mm cartridge... nope.

I tend to think a regular old FL bushing die is enough for most guys, and then for the OCD among us, most can take an educated guess when ordering a custom-honed FL die and be ok.

I will say this though... that A. Buschman article opened my eyes a little and made me wonder if there were unnecessary reloading steps I was doing that I was doing more because they made me feel better versus them actually doing anything that shows up on targets.

I decided to load 50 like I usually do (FL size w/o expander, separate mandrel step, chamfer case mouths, seat bullets) and another 50 "AB style" (FL size w/o expander only, seat bullets) and so far... after 50 rounds (split 25/25)... at distance, I'm not seeing much difference.

I didn't document much, but I sent 5rds of my "good stuff" vs 5rds of the "AB style" at IPSCs at 1250yrds, and through heavy mirage with the same wind, same conditions, the results weren't drastically different. I got 4 out of 5 impacts with the good stuff" and saw the miss off the shoulder, got 3 out of 5 with the "AB style" and saw the splash from both misses (off the shoulder again):

1250yrds - FL size .266" w/o expander, separate mandrel step, chamfer case mouths:

1250yrds - FL size .266" w/o expander only:

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I think its going to be hard to make a call with such low sample size, along with the non controllable variable of long range shooting (wind changes, atmospherics, shooter,ect) at that distance . The mandrel may be a very small factor in group size and es/sd relative to some of the other major factors ( Controlling neck tension via bushing die, lab scale trickler, starting with the best components) and I would guess compared to those, it probably is a smaller factor. Annealing may be somewhere in the middle, i have noticed better SD/ES with the amp vs torch or no annealing. I think it has to do with neck tension as well, but that's just my guess.

It would be nice to see some side by side tests with big sample sizes then change variable by variable to see how everything factors in , relative to each other. That would be incredibly time consuming and expensive. Not even Litz dives into that kind of testing for the exact reason. Need a sponser and a 5 figure budget in just componet to make it happen.

The point is, we are doing all these steps that take time, Uniforming the ID of the neck via mandrel before it hits the the Henderson which has a pilot, is not really much more work. Probably adds 3 seconds to cycle time for each case if you have a turret press.

The SAC die elimiates that if you use their integrated mandrel. The big question is, why not? Top accuracy shooters are doing all these steps and more, and I am guessing for a reason. Now we can go down the rabbit hole of diminishing returns but all things considered, its a cheap/fast step that can't hurt.

 

[CK1.0]

Yeah, a sample size of 50rds is nothing, but from what I was seeing downrange on targets, I'm already leaning towards saying that my mandrel and chamfer steps have been unnecessary for my needs. Ironically, when I first started loading for rifle and "didn't know any better", and was trying to be as lazy as possible and do as few reloading steps as possible, FL sizing with a bushing was all I did and my ammo didn't turn out too bad at all.

Over time (and a couple/few years) I picked up different steps that I worked into my process in the quest to make better ammo, and while my ammo did get better, I'm starting to think that had more to do with me just becoming more experienced and plain better at it (as well as making mechanical upgrades/changes like dropping my charges to the kernel) more so than anything some of the extra steps I was adding was doing...

I'm already pretty forward-thinking in my approach to reloading compared to some (I don't believe in nodes or OCW, or stuff that doesn't jive with science for instance), so I'm going to continue testing for a while and won't have any problem letting go of any unnecessary steps if it seems they don't really matter downrange. YMMV.

 

[supercorndogs]

I am not sure how looking for a relatively stable POI over the largest powder charge range you can doesn't jive with science. Do all loads shoot to the same POI...

 

[918v]

Nobody here gives a shit about your participating in PRS matches. Actually, I can assure you that out of the well over 100,000 members of this forum very few give a flying fuck about PRS or think they have to genuflect to those who do.

^^^
Religious discrimination

 

[CK1.0]

I am not sure how looking for a relatively stable POI over the largest powder charge range you can doesn't jive with science. Do all loads shoot to the same POI...

IDK? Honestly, POI changing or not over different charges isn't something I'm concerned with. I just pick a safe charge and see what speed it nets... then add or subtract grains until I'm where I want to be speed-wise. Once there, I drop every charge to the kernel.

My POI never moves (and I recheck my zero nearly every time I shoot) and I manage to get single-digit SDs every time even though I'm not lucky and don't believe in coincidence lol. I do it like NASA does: more/less fuel = more/less speed (always), done. I don't think charge weight matters besides for speed.

However, if one already has a system that produces good ammo, then right on. I only share how I look at it, I don't want to preach, people can and should do it their way.

 

[supercorndogs]

Sounds like "unscientific methods" was the wrong phrase then. Sounds like one couldnt choose a more unscientific method than the, " just pick a charge weight."

Pick an easy cartridge to load for in a heavy gun with a big fat quality barrel and sure they almost always shoot better than most people.

 

[Taylorbok]

Since you've already decided I'm wrong I won't waste much time on this.

Just because a lot of people do something does not mean it's correct. Reloading is a rabbit hole and folks chase the next best thing hoping to improve their performance. 3/4-1/2 MOA rifle is all you need in my opinion: https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/15/how-much-does-group-size-matter/

Also if you're dead set on following the crowd, why not follow the guy who cleaned a 2 day? He's doing a lot less brass prep than most it seems. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2023...ess-austin-buschman-shooter-spotlight-part-3/

IMO it depends on what you are doing. F-Class and BR your ammo has to be as good as you can possibly make it. In PRS if the ammo shoots decent it's more about how good the shooter is.

 

[supercorndogs]

I bet 99% of shooters would be much better served by learing how to practice like the top guys, rather than reload like them. Aren't people still winning PRS matches with factory ammo?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I bet 99% of shooters would be much better served by learing how to practice like the top guys, rather than reload like them. Aren't people still winning PRS matches with factory ammo?

The sport has changed and EVERYTHING is important. Most guys would not be happy with 1/2 moa guns/loads. That is leaving points in the table. Its not like 10 years ago where you had giant plates, most shooters sucked and had more time. You could win with a 3/4 moa gun (Vibbert did, but now has a local guy load all his ammo using the best shit) but when you are shooting 1-1.5moa plates, even a 1 mph change in wind with a perfect wind call and hold can send you off plate.

Its the main reason its hard to break into and raise the ranks fast. Very few people do it because there is a ton of different things to learn and most people can only do 1 or 2 things at a time.

Most of the people who get good really fast happen to be kids. When someone else is reloading, helping you with stage prep, driving you, you dont have to work, Companies throwing all kinds of gear at juniors, plus having a coach; it makes things much easier. When you have to do all that shit yourself, teach yourself its a much steeper learning curve.

This is why buying the best gear is going to be the fastest way to learn. Control as many easy variables as you can early on so you can focus on working the others. Training like the pros is great but if you dont have equipment that can keep up, you cannot gain the confidence needed to get better. Always wondering if your miss was you or the gear is a game killer.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Personally, I'm on the fence about the SAC die... I don't see that it does anything magical that a custom-honed FL die wouldn't do, and unless one plans on sticking with a specific cartridge for a long time over many different lots of brass, I kind of think it falls into the black hole that exists for lots of us long-range-fancy-rifle-guys to throw money into when tricked into the old "more money = more performance" grift.

If someone gave me one or if I picked one up off a prize table, I'd use it, but $300 plus $35 for proprietary cartridge-specific bushings when I already own more than a few .243"/6mm traditional bushings that work with any other .243"/6mm cartridge... nope.

I tend to think a regular old FL bushing die is enough for most guys, and then for the OCD among us, most can take an educated guess when ordering a custom-honed FL die and be ok.

I will say this though... that A. Buschman article opened my eyes a little and made me wonder if there were unnecessary reloading steps I was doing that I was doing more because they made me feel better versus them actually doing anything that shows up on targets.

I decided to load 50 like I usually do (FL size w/o expander, separate mandrel step, chamfer case mouths, seat bullets) and another 50 "AB style" (FL size w/o expander only, seat bullets) and so far... after 50 rounds (split 25/25)... at distance, I'm not seeing much difference.

I didn't document much, but I sent 5rds of my "good stuff" vs 5rds of the "AB style" at IPSCs at 1250yrds, and through heavy mirage with the same wind, same conditions, the results weren't drastically different. I got 4 out of 5 impacts with the good stuff" and saw the miss off the shoulder, got 3 out of 5 with the "AB style" and saw the splash from both misses (off the shoulder again):

1250yrds - FL size .266" w/o expander, separate mandrel step, chamfer case mouths:

View attachment 8188433




1250yrds - FL size .266" w/o expander only:

View attachment 8188435

Yeah I did the same thing with my redding bushing die vs bushing die + mandrel. There was zero difference in MV, in ES, or on target. Now that's with brass fired out of my rifle already 2x, so that could be a big factor, but unless it's virgin brass, I stopped using the mandrel and only use the bushing die. It would be nice not to have a donut on my brass though so that SAC die does sound interesting to me. Couldn't we just get the bushing though? The SAC dies fit in a redding or other FL Bushing die??? (SAC says on their site that they won't work with any other die so...)

 

[Taylorbok]

Couldn't we just get the bushing though? The SAC dies fit in a redding or other FL Bushing die???

SAC does make bushing that will fit any other die but the one that fits in their die has the shoulder built into it and will only work in their die

 

[JerkyFreak]

I do not know how you gentleman do it, but when I use a bushing die the neck gets sized so close to the neck-shoulder junction that it doesn't matter. Also, I am not convinced that not sizing the whole neck causes donuts.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

SAC does make bushing that will fit any other die but the one that fits in their die has the shoulder built into it and will only work in their die

Ok, that was my confusion. I edited it after looking on their site. Of course that would be too cheap and easy....

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I do not know how you gentleman do it, but when I use a bushing die the neck gets sized so close to the neck-shoulder junction that it doesn't matter. Also, I am not convinced that not sizing the whole neck causes donuts.

I don't actually get donuts but if you look closely you can see where the bushing stops. That's said I don't know that it does matter at all ?

 

[CK1.0]

When it comes to a custom-honed FL sizing die versus a bushing die… honestly, IDK if it even matters?

Theoretically a custom-honed die should be better… but, I’ve got 300 pieces of Lapua ex-22-250Rem-converted-to-6CM brass with 18 firings/cycles on it (and counting) that has always been sized with a bushing die, and the tiny portion of unsized neck hasn’t caused any problems yet… if donuts or anything else was going to be a problem, I’d have figured they would have appeared by now? I mean I’m going to have to retire them eventually, the primer pockets can’t last forever (or can they?) lol.

(Incidentally, FWIW, converted 22-250 brass yields 6CM with short necks… so I’ve never had to trim them either lol.)

 

[kthomas]

I haven't tried a honed die, because I haven't seen a need to with all the ammo I make with regular FL sizing dies.

I know some people state that it produces better ammo. Maybe it does. I just haven't seen a need for it in my reloads.

 

[CK1.0]

I haven't tried a honed die, because I haven't seen a need to with all the ammo I make with regular FL sizing dies.

I know some people state that it produces better ammo. Maybe it does. I just haven't seen a need for it in my reloads.

I think it depends on the die and how small it squashes the neck…

Using 6mm as an example, I’ve had some regular FL dies that bring the neck OD to ~.260” when not using an expander ball, and IMO that’d be too tight to seat bullets into (and in that case, I’d definitely follow up with a .241” mandrel).

For me in 6mm, whether honed or bushing die, I’m looking for something that spits necks out more in the .266-268” range.

 

[SharpShooterSER]

never had doughnut problem with my neck sizing/shoulder bumping + mandrel (and some of the brass is on its 17th firing). even when I was using cheap prc scale and hand throwing my sd and mv were right where they should be. and I stumbled on obt and used it many times now with ql to get to the good load faster, for me and for my buddies, like more than 30 loads that shoot .3. Ok, in competition that number always doubles for some reason - well heart rate is elevated for sure. mind you I come from the place where components are scarce/non existent, no sponsors or coaches, and most of the stuff you have to learn on your own along the way.
"wondering if your miss was you or the gear" oh I couldnt agree more. most of us say, we cant shoot as good as our gear is.