Beginner Getting Started - 2 Rifles?

[Paul_H]

Hi All,
I'm new to precision rifle shooting, and rifle shooting in general. Last time I shot a rifle was 35+ years ago at Boy Scout camp. I'm an avid pistol shooter and enjoy IDPA, but I'm looking to expand my horizons. I live in south eastern CT and will plan to shoot locally and also shoot with the Minuteman Precision Rifle League, but probably not till next year with them. My home range is only 10 minutes from my house and I can shoot at lunch time, the advantage of working from home. There I'm limited to 100yds. Another local range goes out to 300yds, but I won't be a member till they open membership up next year. I looked at the clubs the Minuteman league shoots at and right now the farthest distance is 600yds, the Granby MA 1,000yd range is current closed. In the fall I'd like to head up to Sig Academy for their precision rifle classes and hopefully go out to 1,000yds there.

I will also add that re-loading and tinkering with loads is half the fun of shooting for me.

Given all that, I'm thinking I really want two rifles, instead of one do it all rifle. Something I can shoot at least weekly at my home range, 100yds, and then something for shooting at 300yds+. Does having two rifles make sense? In my mind I want a 223 precision rifle and either a 308 or 6.5 for the farther distances. From my research there is plenty of reloading fun to be had with any of those calibers, and shooting the 223 won't be punishing for weekly or more sessions. For budget, rifle and optics, I'm looking at $2,500 for the 223 setup and then later in the summer/early fall, so I can go to Sig's classes, another $3,000 for the longer range setup.

Thoughts from the hide? Advice to reconsider two rifles, or other advice on better calibers or plans? I'm open to it all.
Thanks,
Paul

 

[antithesis]

I'll bite. I would not be thinking 'budget rifle' in your case. You have an opportunity to build a trainer that can be nearly identical to your larger bore. The R700 platform will allow you to get a Vudoo 223 that you can put in the same chassis as your larger caliber giving you a great trainer. For the longer ranges, 6.5 and 308 at that distance for me is a coin toss. The 308 will get much better barrel life, cost a little more to shoot (assuming you reload - more powder, but cheaper brass), and have more recoil vs. the 6.5. Don't do a 6mm unless you are fine replacing barrels - if you are then I would consider them.

I would consider running one scope to keep the cost down. Swapping from one rifle to another will allow you to buy a better optic and you will always be looking through the same reticle. Going with a mount like the Spuhr QDP will make life easier when swapping.

 

[AK4900PA]

Is the budget you stated for just the rifles or including optics?

 

[shibby575]

just build a real nice 308 or 6.5

 

[Paul_H]

The budget was for rifle and optic. That said, though, I'm not married to the idea of having 2 rifles this year, if putting more money into a single one makes more sense than trying to split the budget into two.

 

[Steel head]

just build a real nice 308 or 6.5

This is what I’d do.
You can do a LOT with the 6.5’s!
The momma bear approach works.


With what I know now If I wasn’t so invested in 260 and was starting over I’d build a small 6mm, probably 6BR and then a 7mm, 30 or 338 magnum.

Right now my 260 is my do it all rifle.

Not optimized for high volume short range but still capable and also not optimal for 1400-1500+ but I’ve shamed a few bigger magnums at those distances with it and 1000 yards is almost a no brainer.

 

[TheBigCountry]

If your home range is only 100Y, and that close, why not get a nice CZ 22 with a good scope for now. You can work with that for a while until you know if you want a 308 or 6.5

 

[Paul_H]

If your home range is only 100Y, and that close, why not get a nice CZ 22 with a good scope for now. You can work with that for a while until you know if you want a 308 or 6.5

I've thought of going that route too. My desire to reload is what's holding me back. But for learning purposes, the 22 and a good scope may be the smart move.

 

[b6graham]

hey Paul. i'm one of the founding members of the MMPRL. i'll send you a PM.

as far as rifle suggestions. I'd recommend going with something with swappable boltheads like a Bighorn Origin/TL3 and building up a 223 trainer and 6.5 Creed. same chassis/trigger/scope. easy to switch barrels.

get a little nicer action, glass, and chassis while still saving some for training

 

[earthquake]

^ this is what I was going to suggest as well. Get a TL3 with the standard and .22-cal bolt heads and order two barrels for it. Grab a Viper Vise for $60 and the Bighorn action wrench and swap them back and forth at your leisure.
You can even swap at the range if you hitch mount it.
Hitch Viper

 

[steve123]

A nice 22 rimfire is high up on the list of acquirements. Many of us shoot our rimfires out farther than 100Y but the vertical tends to get nasty compared to a precision centerfire. For learning rifle fundamentals they work great as well as for learning wind affects, plus you'll end up doing a bunch of dialing and holds with the scope.

I'd build one higher end centerfire too, a 6mm Benchrest or wildcat based off it. These small cartridges really are the apex of top accuracy and low SD's. My 223AI doesn't get shot much since I went 6mmBR.

Comparing 22rf and 6mmBR at say 200Y, you'd be around 4" groups with the rimfire and 1/2" with the 6mmBR. At last months practice match 1st and 4th were using a 6mmBR, this was with one long range stage to almost 1400 yards and common distances from 300Y to 900Y, so the little cartridge can get the job done. BTW 6mm Dasher (a 6mmBR wildcat) was 3rd.

Last year a .282" 5 shot record group was shot at 600Y and a 1.08" at 1000Y with the 6mmBRA, another wildcat version of the 6mmBR.

Little old me shot 4.5" vertical at 1025Y 4 months ago for 12 shots, that sold me right then and there!!! My poor friend couldn't hardly hit the same plate with his two other nice rifles in more powerful cartridges.

Take your time and choose everything wisely, part of the fun with builds is picking all the parts!

 

[Sheldon N]

If I were in your shoes I'd get a Vudoo 22 for the 100 yard work and a matching centerfire rifle with both a 223 barrel and some sort of 6mm or 6.5mm barrel (my preferences lean towards 6mm BR based cases like mentioned above). I'd shoot the 22lr 90% of the time, but could also do some 223 practice at the 100 yard range. Then with just a barrel swap the centerfire rifle becomes a 6mm match rifle you can use at longer ranges.

 

[AK4900PA]

With that budget, I'd definitely stick with a single rifle and high quality optic. A good quality rifle, stock/chassis, bipod and optic will run past the $2500 mark in a hurry.

 

[Paul_H]

I had no idea I could have a 2-in-1 rifle where I could swap calibers around. That's an interesting solution. More reading and research to do....

 

[Sheldon N]

I had no idea I could have a 2-in-1 rifle where I could swap calibers around. That's an interesting solution. More reading and research to do....

The Viper trailer hitch vise is a great option, I have one of those. Also look into the Ross Vise as another option for back/forth barrel swaps. I don't use my trailer hitch vise anymore since getting the Ross vise.

Bighorn Origin or TL3 are good for multi-caliber barrel swaps since you can change the bolt head. You can also do it with other actions, but need to buy a separate complete bolt.

My personal setup is Bighorn TL3, multiple bolt heads, multiple barrels in different calibers from 223 to 6mm up to 7 SAUM.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

My .260 is my LR precision rifle, and does very nicely for closer applications. But it's also a bit to expensive to shoot (especially in terms of bore wear. It has a Lothar-Walther custom 28" barrel) for training.

I use the .223 for training because it has better numbers for ammo cost and bore wear, and it does not need to be a spendy custom rifle. I have taken a basic Savage varmint rifle, replaced the stock, and added some less expensive optics that have held up very well over the years.

I handload for both, but not because of cost. It costs just as much to load up precisely accurate ammunition as it does to just slap the same components together and simply hope for the best, which is a lot like what happens when one sticks with factory ammunition. The good factory stuff costs more, which is why I handload. I can afford accuracy better when I control the component costs and the load recipes.

The downside is the amount of ammunition assembly time. I skip some of the more time consuming tricks, settle for some minor reduction in accuracy, and live with the compromise.

I shoot mostly (of course) the .223, for the bulk of my training. I had been doing this with .22LR,. but that got costlier, and shortages occurred more frequently. These factors made the .223 into more of a bargain.

For me, training is not about pursuing tiny groups. It's about shooting a lot, finding consistency, then using that to reduce the group sizes, but maintaining that consistency. The target is important, but its best value comes from displaying improvement, plateauing, and/or degradation of overall performance. You do that, and the rest gets easier.

Again, forget about the bragging rights. Concentrate on getting the marksmanship basics consistently right. That takes practice, practice, and more practice. That's when the training/practice rifle delivers the value you spent the money for.

Specialization is for the 'money shots' rifle; the shots you spend the match fees to fire. Until the basic marksmanship skills are solid, spending big is premature, and could be wasteful.

This rifle is newer than mine and will probably not need any mods. I like this scope. Add a 20MOA base and moderately good rings (medium height for this scope). I like the EGW steel bases, but the new Savage Model 110 may not take the bases that are marketed for the older long action '110' rifle, and may require the ones marketed for the older short action '10' rifle. if you have questions, ask Savage.

The .223 and 75/77gr match grade ammunition is well within its limits at 600yd with this rifle. My recipe is Starline Brass, CCI BR-4 primer, 75gr Hornady HPBT Match bullet, and 23.5-23.7gr of Varget, and I have fired this load at 600yd in National F T/R Medium Range competition.

This rifle, same optics, etc, should be good for the 1000yd chambered in 308 Winchester, 6.5 Creedmore, or .260 Remington.

Trying something that's workmanlike, such as this rifle, saves money; and saves wear on a more costly rifle until your 1000yd skills are worthy of the more costly choices. Beginners bend things; it's better if they aren't so expensive in that beginning.

Greg

 

[chevy_man]

6mm BR/BRX would be perfect. Not much more powder than a .223, Lapua brass will last 20+loadings if you don't push it hard and anneal the necks. It'll last 4000 rounds of practical accuracy if you're not getting the barrel smoking hot.

I'd put the first 2500 into the rifle, and another 2500 into a scope. Can't hit what you can't see.

 

[NateVA]

If I were in your shoes I'd get a Vudoo 22 for the 100 yard work and a matching centerfire rifle with both a 223 barrel and some sort of 6mm or 6.5mm barrel (my preferences lean towards 6mm BR based cases like mentioned above). I'd shoot the 22lr 90% of the time, but could also do some 223 practice at the 100 yard range. Then with just a barrel swap the centerfire rifle becomes a 6mm match rifle you can use at longer ranges.

I'll second this. A .22lr trainer would be great for your home range distance.

 

[PAYDIRT]

22 to play with, a nice action with 2 barrels, 223 for positional practice, and a 6 of your flavor for comps.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Why not just train on a 6.5 or similar?
Build or buy 1 very nice rifle and a nice optic.
Spend the rest on quality reloading setup for said rifle.

 

[bourbonbent]

I’m doing the same sort of thing, and like other posters have mentioned I went the switch barrel route.

Bighorn TL3 SA, it’s getting 3 barrels. I’m probably doing a .222 or some variant for the trainer, I have a .308 on it now, and I’m doing a 7mm Sherman Short for longer stuff. All with one rifle. Just need a barrel vise, action wrench, torque wrench, and some anti seize.

The TL3 has interchangeable bolt heads, you can go from a .223 to a .300WSM by changing two parts and a different magazine. I still have to get the other two barrels done, but it’s a fun project. Lots of folks do switch barrels with great results, even in benchrest and other competitive matches.

 

[Kimber.204]

Echoing what others have said.

I bought used:
- Used Bighorn TL3 with a couple different bolt heads.
- Used JAE-700 chassis.
- New ARC Barloc
- Used Savage .223 Rem varmint Barrel
- Used Savage .308 Varmint Barrel
- Used Sightron 6-24 Siii scope
- (rings, magazines, headspace gauges)
All this cost me about $3600

Later I upgraded to include:
- March 2.5 - 25x42mm scope
- Krieger barrel in 6mm Competition Match

The used Savage take off barrels in .223 and .308 are extremely accurate.
I would routinely practice with the .223 barrel with cheap and easy to make 80gr loads.
The week before the match I would put the 6mm Comp Match on. The great thing was that if I didn't have time to swap barrels I wasn't really handicapped using the .223 barrel.

If you don't want to use Savage take-offs, John Scandale at Keystone Accuracy can spin you up a TL3 shouldered prefit for not much more than $400.

Anyway....One action, one chassis, one scope.
Please note that with the ARC Barloc I did have to confirm zero when swapping barrels.....I never intended it to be a switch barrel that didn't need re-zeroing.

Best of Luck.
Ross

 

[Paul_H]

Thank you everyone for your advice and insights. I plan on doing the Bighorn TL3 route, sounds like the great way to have different calibers available and still have consistency with chassis, scope, trigger, etc.

The problem is that it will take me 3 months at least to get everything ordered and built, and I'd like to start shooting in the mean time. I watched a series of videos you YouTube about a budget precision 223 built based off the T/C Compass rifle. T/C guarantees the rifle to be good for 1 MOA. I would not do a budget scope, but would plan on investing in a scope I could move over the the TL3 once it is complete. Is the T/C Compass a waste of money? Would I be better off with something like a Tikka T3x Varmint in 223 instead? I can afford either one plus a scope, but don't want to spend extra just because knowing that I'll have the TL3 eventually.



Thanks!
Paul

 

[Paul_H]

So after some more research, I see that the TL3 action is available from 3rd party sellers. Is there any advantage to buying directly from Bighorn vs 3rd party seller?

 

[acudaowner]

which ever rifles you choose good luck and have fun .

 

[MK20]

Here is my two cents.

Based on your range limitations I would modify your plan a bit.
I would get a good bolt gun in 308 or 6.5 and top it with a decent optic. DONT GET A SAVAGE.

I would highly suggest getting a nice 18” barrel SPR (long range purpose built AR) because it can fill more roles for you at short distances as well. BCM makes some nice ones. Top it with a good 1-10 or 1-8 scope and you have everything you need right in those two rifles.
Bonus. If anything ever gets squirrelly you will be glad you have that SPR and not some bolt action 223.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Here is my two cents.

Based on your range limitations I would modify your plan a bit.
I would get a good bolt gun in 308 or 6.5 and top it with a decent optic. DONT GET A SAVAGE.

I would highly suggest getting a nice 18” barrel SPR (long range purpose built AR) because it can fill more roles for you at short distances as well. BCM makes some nice ones. Top it with a good 1-10 or 1-8 scope and you have everything you need right in those two rifles.
Bonus. If anything ever gets squirrelly you will be glad you have that SPR and not some bolt action 223.

I think he mentioned being in CT, which may pretty much make a SPR a no-go

 

[TheBigCountry]

So after some more research, I see that the TL3 action is available from 3rd party sellers. Is there any advantage to buying directly from Bighorn vs 3rd party seller?

Look up Keystone Accuracy. They have their Origin or even TL3s available with either the GM or Kreiger barrels in your choice of caliber. Add a TT special trigger, KRG bravo stock, and scope of your choice.

Custom Machining, Rifle Parts, Rifle Barrel | Keystone Accuracy

 

[Paul_H]

I think he mentioned being in CT, which may pretty much make a SPR a no-go

I am in CT. I've looked at building an AR platform rifle, but to have the good stuff I'd have to do a pre-ban. Pre-ban lowers are running $1,500 for a stripped one. More than I want to spend on that platform right now.

 

[MK20]

Oh. Sorry.
Mmmm...seems like CT might need to be renamed the rotisserie state what with all those founding patriots rolling over in their graves.

You might try to find a RPR in 223. It would give you some nice barrel swap options.

 

[b6graham]

So after some more research, I see that the TL3 action is available from 3rd party sellers. Is there any advantage to buying directly from Bighorn vs 3rd party seller?

i prefer to buy from Bighorn directly. but, I domn't mind the wait (king of) so if time is a factor it's hard to beat Altus or anyone else who has stuff in stock. you'd be ready to rock in a few days

 

[patriot07]

Just my $.02, but I'd grab a Tikka Varmint 223 and a Tikka CTR 6.5, stick both in the stock of your choice, add scope of your choice, and you're done. No triggers, no need for a bunch of mods, just roll with it. Both are pretty easy 1/2-MOA guns if you're reloading and you'd have $1k-$1500 scopes on each. SWFA HD 5-20, Bushnell XRS GAP deal, Delta Stryker, Athlon Cronus, or Razor Gen 2 if you want to up the budget a hair are all in that price range and are all really good scopes that will do anything you need them to shooting out to 1k yards.

IMHO, the 22 is a waste of time. Wind blows it all over the place, even at 100 yards. You don't get to reload (which I agree is half the fun), and you're at the mercy of changing lots of ammo depending on supplier availability. I've tried it, and it was way more frustration than it was worth. If you're looking for real precision, then 22 ends at 50-ish yards unless you're really wanting to spend some coin. I have a tricked out 10/22 that's a blast to shoot at 50 yards, but it's just frustration at 100 yards. If you really want to go to 100 with a precision rimfire, I'd heavily recommend a 17HMR. But by that point, ammo is not too much cheaper than a 223 if you're reloading. And the Tikka Varmint 223 is a freaking laser.

I do find merit to those who have said to get one gun. I would have zero issue with a Tikka action (or a Bighorn if you really don't want factory) with a really nice scope on top of it. But the Tikka Varmint 223 is stupidly accurate and really fun to shoot, so if you want to go the 2-rifle route, I think that's a great solution. But if you had $5k to spend on one gun, you could get the Tikka CTR, stick it in a Manners, add a ZComp or S&B, and you'd have an insanely nice setup.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I have a custom bolt gun in 6.5CM, a chassis'ed Tikka T3X Varmint in .223, and, up until recently, a chassis'ed CZ-455 "Tacticool."

Then the Vudoo came.

Neither the CZ nor the .223 have been out of the safe since. I'm either on the 6.5CM or the Vudoo. Those two rifles are set up identically other than 20" barrel on the .22 instead of 26" and Vortex Viper PST scope instead of a Razor. My training needs center around getting into position and getting shots off quickly; I mostly use 1" and 2" swingers at 100 yards and 2-3" swingers at 150 with the Vudoo. At that range - especially with 2" target - CCI SV ammo is absolutely accurate enough and I buy it for a nickel a round on sale. For rimfire matches out to 300 yards, I step up to better ammo, of course.

Unlike other posters here, I regard reloading with the same affection as swabbing toilets. I do it, but it isn't "fun." If reloading .223 is "fun," there is more merit to that platform as a trainer for the larger rifle, but face it- you buy a Vudoo for $2100-2800 or whatever the cost for the stock/chassis of your choice, and you are never going to be replacing a barrel and mid-tier .22 ammo costs less than reloads. The rifle essentially pays for itself if you spend most of your time at 100 yards or even out to 200.

My $0.02. We all have different likes/preferences, and those change.

 

[patriot07]

The only problem I have with the Vudoo is the price and the fact that you're still stuck with a 22 and even a Vudoo can't fix the problems inherent to that round. If you have 5k to spend and you want reach 1k, then spending $3k of it on a 22 is kind of missing the forest for the trees.

If you have infinite budget, I'm sure the Vudoo is great. But that's not the case for most of us.

 

[Sheldon N]

Thank you everyone for your advice and insights. I plan on doing the Bighorn TL3 route, sounds like the great way to have different calibers available and still have consistency with chassis, scope, trigger, etc.

The problem is that it will take me 3 months at least to get everything ordered and built, and I'd like to start shooting in the mean time.

Get the TL3 from whoever has it in stock with the shortest lead time. All the major resellers are good, try to buy from one who has both the 308 and 223 bolt heads in stock. Keystone should be able to get you a 223 barrel very quickly, so you could be shooting in no time.

IMO buying a second rifle that's not the one you want for just a couple months is likely unnecessary.

 

[b6graham]

Get the TL3 from whoever has it in stock with the shortest lead time. All the major resellers are good, try to buy from one who has both the 308 and 223 bolt heads in stock. Keystone should be able to get you a 223 barrel very quickly, so you could be shooting in no time.

IMO buying a second rifle that's not the one you want for just a couple months is likely unnecessary.

especially considering you can order a TL3, chassis, scope, rings, and a keystone barrel and have it for next weekend

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

What is the benefit of a 223 trainer? At what point does the cost outweigh those benefits.

 

[patriot07]

What is the benefit of a 223 trainer? At what point does the cost outweigh those benefits.

You’d have to really put a ton of rounds down range before it came out equal cost-wise. The real benefit is the a varmint 223 with zero recoil and great accuracy is just fun to shoot.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

The only problem I have with the Vudoo is the price and the fact that you're still stuck with a 22 and even a Vudoo can't fix the problems inherent to that round. If you have 5k to spend and you want reach 1k, then spending $3k of it on a 22 is kind of missing the forest for the trees.

If you have infinite budget, I'm sure the Vudoo is great. But that's not the case for most of us.

Horses for courses. For every 6.5CM round I send to 1000 yards, I send 20-50 to 500 (1000 yards is 90 minutes away, 500+ is 15 minutes). For every round I send to 500, I send 100-200 in positional training at shorter ranges. For every centerfire match, I shoot 2-3 rimfire matches.

So, for me, the Vudoo is very much a bargain as a trainer because it is exactly like my centerfire match rifle and I don't have to replace the barrel at a cost of several hundred dollars. There is no better, more accurate .22 for the rimfire matches I attend.

I can reload 6.5CM for about $0.50/round - more, of course, if the cost of brass and equipment is factored in. The .223 is half that. For the .22? I shoot 5-10 rounds of good-fair ammo for the price of a single 6.5CM reload. I can buy 2-10 thousand .22s for the price of a barrel replacement and I'm shooting instead of pulling a handle.

It's a pay-now-pay-later equation, as well as a matter of preference. Precision rifle is not cheap and, as I said, we all have different budgets, purposes, priorities, etc. I'm not saying anyone else should follow my lead. I'm only recounting my experience and rationale.

 

[Sheldon N]

You’d have to really put a ton of rounds down range before it came out equal cost-wise.

If you work out the math the break even point actually happens very quickly. The true cost of adding a trainer is just the depreciation you see on whatever non-consumable components you need. For a full brand new trainer build that might be 25% depreciation on chassis, scope, action, trigger, mags, dies. You can reduce that depreciation further if you buy used gear. I've got a really nice 223 trainer with 10k+ rounds on it, and I figure it's worth roughly $400 less than what I've put into it. So while I may have $5k wrapped up in the rifle, the actual cost to me is relatively low in the long run.

If you are just doing a switch barrel that depreciation really only applies to bolt head, dies, mags, and barrel vise. Essentially a nominal amount, maybe $100.

The rest of the costs are on the consumable side. Brass, barrel, primers, powder, bullets. All of that is a true per-shot cost, regardless of whether you had to spin up a second barrel to start out. Either way each trigger pull is costing you money in wear and tear plus ammo.

Figure that a 223 is about 40 cents per shot cheaper than a 6mm or 6.5mm for ammo + wear/tear. The break even point could be as quick as 250 rounds for a switch barrel rig or maybe 1-2k rounds for a full trainer build. Using my own personal costs I broke even on my 223 trainer in the first two months, and I've "saved" 3 or 4 grand in consumable costs. Yes, I've got money tied up in the trainer, but if I gave up and wanted to sell it would be quite easy to get that money back in my pocket.

 

[Paul_H]

I was at the gun store today and ended up picking up a Ruger 10/22 with a scope for a few hundred bucks. That'll give me something to shoot at my home range for a bit. I'm going to a MMPRL match in Granby MA and will be borrowing their loaner rifle for the day. I figure I should probably shoot one match to make sure I actually like it before going all in on a rifle.

 

[patriot07]

If you work out the math the break even point actually happens very quickly. The true cost of adding a trainer is just the depreciation you see on whatever non-consumable components you need. For a full brand new trainer build that might be 25% depreciation on chassis, scope, action, trigger, mags, dies. You can reduce that depreciation further if you buy used gear. I've got a really nice 223 trainer with 10k+ rounds on it, and I figure it's worth roughly $400 less than what I've put into it. So while I may have $5k wrapped up in the rifle, the actual cost to me is relatively low in the long run.

If you are just doing a switch barrel that depreciation really only applies to bolt head, dies, mags, and barrel vise. Essentially a nominal amount, maybe $100.

The rest of the costs are on the consumable side. Brass, barrel, primers, powder, bullets. All of that is a true per-shot cost, regardless of whether you had to spin up a second barrel to start out. Either way each trigger pull is costing you money in wear and tear plus ammo.

Figure that a 223 is about 40 cents per shot cheaper than a 6mm or 6.5mm for ammo + wear/tear. The break even point could be as quick as 250 rounds for a switch barrel rig or maybe 1-2k rounds for a full trainer build. Using my own personal costs I broke even on my 223 trainer in the first two months, and I've "saved" 3 or 4 grand in consumable costs. Yes, I've got money tied up in the trainer, but if I gave up and wanted to sell it would be quite easy to get that money back in my pocket.

Lots of things to discuss here...I'll try to work my way from top to bottom.

First of all, I was not speaking of a switch barrel. I was speaking of having separate rifles. I absolutely hate having to re-zero every time I want to switch calibers. Even if it's mostly reliable, it's insanely annoying to me and would be a complete deal-breaker. So my comments were related to having a completely separate rifle/stock/scope/etc as a trainer. But if you are considering the switch barrel concept, then you need to account for the ammo cost of re-zeroing every time you switch, because that may not be insignificant over 10k rounds.

Second, everything depreciates. If you have 2 stocks, 2 actions, 2 barrels, 2 scopes, 2 set of rings, 2 bases, 2 bipods, 2 sets of magazines, etc., and you put a bunch of rounds through both, then they're both going to take a hit value-wise. Not as much as buying new, but nobody is going to pay near as much for something with 10k rounds through it as they would with a few hundred (presumably the cost you paid when you bought it lightly used). Look at what a Razor Gen 2 is worth now compared to a year ago. You could have lost $500 in just the scope, even if you'd paid $2k used instead of a few hundred more for a new one.

Third, the difference in ammo costs between 223 and 6.5 is not much. Bullets are about 5-8 cents different, brass is negligible once you've got a bunch of firings on it, primers are no difference in cost, and powder is about 9 cents a round for 223 and 15 cents a round for 6.5. So total we're talking about 12-13 cents a round different on average, and that difference becomes even less if you're using switch-barrel since you have to waste some every time you switch. So over 10k rounds of training, you saved $1200-$1300 in ammo consummable cost, minus the depreciation on your 2nd rig, minus the cost of dies or any other caliber-specific tools (bullet remover, OAL gauge, etc.). But I will admit with that round count, you are saving a couple of barrels on a 6.5, so that's really what my "a lot of rounds" comment was geared towards earlier - picking a round with long barrel life so you can shoot it a ton without a big investment to keep going. Definitely wouldn't pay for itself if you're only shooting a few thousand rounds (which is a lot for some folks).

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

That was kinda my thinking. 6.5 and 223 are so close that it sort of negates any benifits. Might as well just invest it all in 6.5 and reloading for 1 caliber.

22lr on the other hand is pennies on the dollar.

 

[Sheldon N]

Lots of things to discuss here...I'll try to work my way from top to bottom.

First of all, I was not speaking of a switch barrel. I was speaking of having separate rifles. I absolutely hate having to re-zero every time I want to switch calibers. Even if it's mostly reliable, it's insanely annoying to me and would be a complete deal-breaker. So my comments were related to having a completely separate rifle/stock/scope/etc as a trainer. But if you are considering the switch barrel concept, then you need to account for the ammo cost of re-zeroing every time you switch, because that may not be insignificant over 10k rounds.

Second, everything depreciates. If you have 2 stocks, 2 actions, 2 barrels, 2 scopes, 2 set of rings, 2 bases, 2 bipods, 2 sets of magazines, etc., and you put a bunch of rounds through both, then they're both going to take a hit value-wise. Not as much as buying new, but nobody is going to pay near as much for something with 10k rounds through it as they would with a few hundred (presumably the cost you paid when you bought it lightly used). Look at what a Razor Gen 2 is worth now compared to a year ago. You could have lost $500 in just the scope, even if you'd paid $2k used instead of a few hundred more for a new one.

Third, the difference in ammo costs between 223 and 6.5 is not much. Bullets are about 5-8 cents different, brass is negligible once you've got a bunch of firings on it, primers are no difference in cost, and powder is about 9 cents a round for 223 and 15 cents a round for 6.5. So total we're talking about 12-13 cents a round different on average, and that difference becomes even less if you're using switch-barrel since you have to waste some every time you switch. So over 10k rounds of training, you saved $1200-$1300 in ammo consummable cost, minus the depreciation on your 2nd rig, minus the cost of dies or any other caliber-specific tools (bullet remover, OAL gauge, etc.). But I will admit with that round count, you are saving a couple of barrels on a 6.5, so that's really what my "a lot of rounds" comment was geared towards earlier - picking a round with long barrel life so you can shoot it a ton without a big investment to keep going. Definitely wouldn't pay for itself if you're only shooting a few thousand rounds (which is a lot for some folks).

I've got two rigs, one lives 90% of the time as a 223 trainer and the other does match duty with many different barrels. Re-zeroing on a shouldered barrel is super easy, 3 to 5 rounds at most since the offset is so predictable. Swap twice a month and that's still only like 100 rounds a year, basically nothing. I do a lot of barrel swapping but agree that having a second dedicated rifle is super handy.

Depreciation on a full build, I'll use my 223 trainer as an example. I bought it as parts, and if I sold it I would part it out as well.

Bighorn TL3, paid $1250, worth $1100 (dep $150)
MPA Chassis, paid $875, worth $650 (dep $225)
TT Diamond, paid $275, worth $225 (dep $50)
ARC Rings (used), paid $125, worth $125
Harris bipod arca kit, paid $200, worth $140 (dep $60)
Area 419 Brake, paid $165, worth $125 (dep $40)
S+B PM II scope (used), paid $2k, worth $2k

So that's $525 in depreciation. Go out a few years from now, figure another $200 or $300 maybe? It's not going to get much worse over time in the near term no matter how many rounds I put through it.

As far as cost/shot, you really need to figure in all the consumables. Brass has a finite life span, as do barrels. Each trigger pull costs you money in using up those consumables. That's why I say that cost per shot difference is about $0.40 between 223 and 6mm. Take a look at this spreadsheet in the link below and mess around with whatever assumptions you want to input about brass life, barrel life, cost of rebarreling, etc.

Barrel Cost Calculator

docs.google.com

While I don't have current info for my loads on there, I can tell you that my 223 trainer rounds with my current components cost me $0.33/shot and my match loads with current components cost me about $0.80/shot. At that price difference, I would have spent $2,350 more in the last 12 months had I shot the 5k rounds in my match rifle rather than my 223 trainer.

 

[patriot07]

I've got two rigs, one lives 90% of the time as a 223 trainer and the other does match duty with many different barrels. Re-zeroing on a shouldered barrel is super easy, 3 to 5 rounds at most since the offset is so predictable. Swap twice a month and that's still only like 100 rounds a year, basically nothing. I do a lot of barrel swapping but agree that having a second dedicated rifle is super handy.

Depreciation on a full build, I'll use my 223 trainer as an example. I bought it as parts, and if I sold it I would part it out as well.

Bighorn TL3, paid $1250, worth $1100 (dep $150)
MPA Chassis, paid $875, worth $650 (dep $225)
TT Diamond, paid $275, worth $225 (dep $50)
ARC Rings (used), paid $125, worth $125
Harris bipod arca kit, paid $200, worth $140 (dep $60)
Area 419 Brake, paid $165, worth $125 (dep $40)
S+B PM II scope (used), paid $2k, worth $2k

So that's $525 in depreciation. Go out a few years from now, figure another $200 or $300 maybe? It's not going to get much worse over time in the near term no matter how many rounds I put through it.

As far as cost/shot, you really need to figure in all the consumables. Brass has a finite life span, as do barrels. Each trigger pull costs you money in using up those consumables. That's why I say that cost per shot difference is about $0.40 between 223 and 6mm. Take a look at this spreadsheet in the link below and mess around with whatever assumptions you want to input about brass life, barrel life, cost of rebarreling, etc.

Barrel Cost Calculator

docs.google.com

While I don't have current info for my loads on there, I can tell you that my 223 trainer rounds with my current components cost me $0.33/shot and my match loads with current components cost me about $0.80/shot. At that price difference, I would have spent $2,350 more in the last 12 months had I shot the 5k rounds in my match rifle rather than my 223 trainer.

Again, you're assuming zero scope depreciation (not realistic over any appreciable amount of time). Think if you'd bought the S&B 5 years ago and are trying to sell it now - you'd take a really harsh beating. Or if you'd bought a Razor Gen 2 last year, or a TT Gen2XR, kahles 624, or anything else that gets dated in an industry where things are constantly improving and changing. That's kind of a micro-cosm of the entire argument - you paint everything in rose-colored glasses and try to justify things with tainted information - use realistic inputs and your output will be much more accurate and meaningful.

You're also assuming really expensive bullets for your match rifle and cheap ones for your trainer. Is that good training? You're also assuming component depreciation that's under-stated I believe, but I'm not going to nickel and dime your argument because the point is that the payback is way, way out there unless you shoot a ton of rounds. This guy has 100-yard access now and out to 1,000 eventually and doesn't sound like 10k rounds is in his immediate future. Even if it was, you'd have to be intentionally shooting expensive components in your match rifle in order to make up that cost. Compare 140 ELD-M versus 75 ELD-M and run the numbers for me.

I run Hornady brass, H-4350, 210M, and 140 ELD-M in my 6.5 with 1/2 MOA accuracy and single-digit SD. When I had my 223, I ran 75 ELD-M, Varget, Federal brass, and CCI primers. 1/2 MOA accuracy and SD a little worse than the 6.5. 12 cents a round difference. I think you're just paying too much for your match ammo...

 

[spife7980]

I think you're just paying too much for your match ammo...

Thats what happens when you shoot bergers and are a national level competitor, stuff just costs more.





I say get a second rifle in 223 if you can just because its great fun.
You dont have to invest a ton into it, a ruger american predator for 400 bucks would be a great option, Id rather have it over the compass.
And without trying to make a bad ass 223 you wont have nearly as much cost to recuperate. Im rebarreling my american action right now from 300bo into another spare 223 via keystones 22cal sale and will dump it into a boyds at1 most likely just so I can have a cheap adjustable rifle that anyone can buy some cheap ammo at walmart for and come plink or learn to shoot.

 

[b6graham]

Berger 140s $0.42
Nosler/Sierra/Hornady $0.2 max

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Where are you getting .20 hornady /sierr/nosler bullets?

Berger 140s $0.42
Nosler/Sierra/Hornady $0.2 max

 

[spife7980]

Where are you getting .20 hornady /sierr/nosler bullets?

Hornady blems at midsouth https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/dept/reloading/rifle-bullets?brand=oem-blem-bullets
Nosler blems http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosler-products/nosler-blemished-2nds/nosler-blemished-bullets.html
Sierra blems are only sold at the factory from my understanding.
Then there is midway which seems like sometimes its a bit of all of them with no real way to tell as its stock images and not necessarily exactly what youre getting. https://www.midwayusa.com/factory-second-bullets/b?bid=2998

 

[b6graham]

Where are you getting .20 hornady /sierr/nosler bullets?

literally everywhere

just bought 88s for under $0.20 per

don't even need to be blems to get Nosler/Sierra 77s under $0.20