Beginner Questions. MRAD vs. AI? 300NM vs. 300PRC vs. 338LM

[richthe1]

Short Story:
(1) Which rifle? MRAD vs. AXMC vs. AXSR. Is there a downside to large firing pins, especially for the larger cartridges? I want to avoid pierced primers.

(2) Which Cartridge for out to 2000yds using only factory ammo? 300NM vs. 300PRC vs. any other? What twist rate? What factory ammo would you recommend? Should I also consider 338LM?


Long Story:
Max range I have access to is 2000yds. I will also be using this rifle In 6.5 Creedmoor for fun in some local PRS club matches (I know these rifles aren’t ideal for PRS, but I’m not a “gamer“). I am considering the following rifles:

MRAD
AXMC
AXSR

The biggest concern I have with the MRAD and AXMC is that they have large firing pins. Is this an issue? However, with the MRAD my understanding is the bolt is headspaced to its specific barrel, so maybe this remedies the issue? The army and SOCOM went with the MRAD in 300NM and the Navy is fielding some in 300 PRC, so it can’t be too much of an issue, right? Only thing holding me back from the AXSR is the cost of entry vs the other two options.

——300 NM vs. 300 PRC vs. 338LM——

My limited research showed 300 NM and 300 PRC are good options, with the 300NM having the advantage ballistically. One big caveat - I will only be shooting factory ammo. Also, I’d read 300NM might have an issue when shooting at angles? What would be my best choice? Are there any other cartridges I should consider?

What would be the best twist rate for 300 Norma? I’ve heard 1:10 is good, but the military is using 1:8? For 300NM I was looking at factory 215 Berger ammo. If I go with the MRAD I would likely be going with a fluted 26” barrel as that is what Barrett currently offers.

For 300 PRC it looks like a twist rate between 9 and 10 is recommended? Downside for the MRAD is it looks like they only offer 1:8 twists for their barrels.

I’d somewhat written off 338LM because it seems like many are moving away from it, but is it still something I should consider? Why or why not?

P.S. Is there much of a difference between the MRAD and the MK22? I know the MK22 trigger is a bit lighter and comes with a bag rider. Not sure if anything internal changed.

 

[jasent]

How often do you plan to shoot at 2000? If not every outing then just flip a coin on the 300’s

 

[Steel head]

2000 and under?
I’d go 300 prc all day and twice on Sunday because you indicated factory ammunition.

Not sure about the 300NM and angles thing, sounds suspiciously like horse shit.

 

[jasent]

2000 and under?
I’d go 300 prc all day and twice on Sunday because you indicated factory ammunition.

Not sure about the 300NM and angles thing, sounds suspiciously like horse shit.

I think the angles thing comes with powders with poor case fill if I remember correctly

 

[Sig Marine]

I can’t help you with the MRAD vs AXMC vs AXSR debate but I do shoot both the .300 Norma and the 300 PRC. For me, both rounds are pretty much equal out to 2000 yards so it comes down to this; if you reload go Norma if you’re going to shoot factory, go PRC. I shoot both using 225 ELD-Ms and velocities are within 20 fps of each other so ballistically it’s a tossup; Hornady factory PRC Ammo is relatively inexpensive and shoots very well.

 

[Steel head]

I think the angles thing comes with powders with poor case fill if I remember correctly

Kinda wondered that.
seems more people using wrong powder than a cartridge problem and blame the cartridge.

 

[richthe1]

How often do you plan to shoot at 2000? If not every outing then just flip a coin on the 300’s

2000 and under?
I’d go 300 prc all day and twice on Sunday because you indicated factory ammunition.

Not sure about the 300NM and angles thing, sounds suspiciously like horse shit.

Thanks for the responses!

I read about the possible angle issue in this article:

300 PRC Review - Ballistics and Comparisons

Check out our 300 PRC review. Read about how the ammo compares to other bullets of its class - including ballistic comparisons and more.

gununiversity.com

“ According to inside sources at Hornady, one of their motivations for coming to market with the 300 PRC was to avoid the unsafe conditions presented by the 300 Norma when shooting at angles. Apparently, the load density of the 300 Norma resulted in some inconsistent pressures.”

So it sounds like it did come from Hornady, so they might be a bit bias...

I plan to shoot 2000 about 4x/yr and 1,100-1,500 consistently about 24x/yr.

 

[richthe1]

I can’t help you with the MRAD vs AXMC vs AXSR debate but I do shoot both the .300 Norma and the 300 PRC. For me, both rounds are pretty much equal out to 2000 yards so it comes down to this; if you reload go Norma if you’re going to shoot factory, go PRC. I shoot both using 225 ELD-Ms and velocities are within 20 fps of each other so ballistically it’s a tossup; Hornady factory PRC Ammo is relatively inexpensive and shoots very well.

I didn’t realize 300NM and 300 PRC were so comparable at 2000yds. Does the 300NM beat the wind better than the 300PRC out to 2000? At what distance does the 300NM start to noticeably outperform the 300PRC?

If I go with the MRAD, is a 1-8 twist too fast for a 26” 300 PRC barrel with 225 ELD-M? As I mentioned, I think that’s the only twist rate Barrett offers.

 

[Steel head]

Lol
That article is a total puff piece.

 

[Steel head]

I didn’t realize 300NM and 300 PRC were so comparable at 2000yds. Does the 300NM beat the wind better than the 300PRC out to 2000? At what distance does the 300NM start to noticeably outperform the 300PRC?

If I go with the MRAD, is a 1-8 twist too fast for a 26” 300 PRC barrel with 225 ELD-M? As I mentioned, I think that’s the only twist rate Barrett offers.

That’s more with factory ammo.
Reload 300NM and you’ll see it’s full potential.

 

[Blaster7Romeo]

I had an MRAD sold it to get a good deal on an AXMC .. you can get cheaper caliber conversions with the AXMC if you are using the same bolt or mags you alredy have.. with every mrad kit you are stuck buying a bolt mag break and bag. With an AXMC you can just pick up a barrel that you want in the chambering you want from the maker you want.

I like the AXMC stock better. But my baby hands liked being able to put the pistol grip I wanted in an mrad ( which you can do in the new asr)

I dont know why but is seems like factory 300NM ammo is around the price of 338LM ammo . And 300 PRC ammo is just a little more that 300WM ammo .

 

[Blaster7Romeo]

Also I think the 1-8 twist is what hornaday specified for the PRC to be used with heavy bullets.. like 250 A-Tip

 

[Huskydriver]

Axmc or ASR in 300 Norma done....

 

[Sig Marine]

I reload and get 2972 fps in the Norma and 2983 fps in the PRC. Using factory ammo in the PRC, speeds are around 2850 fps. So comparing the two is not apples to apples but at 2000 yards, the Norma at my reloaded velocity has a 1 mph wind error of 21.4” whereas the factory PRC at factory velocity has a 1 mph wind error of 23.3”, so basically the same. Both of my barrels are 30” with 1:9 twist.

 

[GIXXER2000]

I have never had an MRAD I do have 4 AI's. There are many more options for barrels with the AI then the MRAD. There are just more guys making very good barrels for AI's. When I first was going to a Multi cal rifle I looked at the DTA. MRAD and AI. I ended up getting the original AI-PSR and have shot the hell out of it. I am on my 3rd 338LM barrel 3nd 300wm barrel and when its done I may try the 300prc. I don't shoot short action in the PSR as I have other short action AI's. When I did shoot short action from the PSR I had 0 feed issue work flawless.

UPDATE I have a 300nm barrel on order it will finish at 30 in and will be 1-9 Twist. I have the following components,

Norma 300nm Brass
215m Primers
230 Berger Hybrids,230 A-tips and if they ever make any more backorder Berger Hybrid 245's
Retumbo and N560,N570 for powder try. Just thinking 24N41 or H50 may work with the 245's

 

[Hobbitsniper22]

I can’t help you with the MRAD vs AXMC vs AXSR debate but I do shoot both the .300 Norma and the 300 PRC. For me, both rounds are pretty much equal out to 2000 yards so it comes down to this; if you reload go Norma if you’re going to shoot factory, go PRC. I shoot both using 225 ELD-Ms and velocities are within 20 fps of each other so ballistically it’s a tossup; Hornady factory PRC Ammo is relatively inexpensive and shoots very well.

How do you find the recoil between 300 prc and 300 norma is there a considerable difference? As i imagine recoil management helps alot with accuracy

 

[Sig Marine]

How do you find the recoil between 300 prc and 300 norma is there a considerable difference? As i imagine recoil management helps alot with accuracy

My experience with H1000 powder in each rifle is that the recoil is a push rather than a snap and very tolerable. and you are correct; recoil management is important with accuracy and extremely so with bigger magnum calibers.

 

[JB.IC]

Curious to continue this conversation, the 300PRC and 300NM apples to apples MV, bullet, etc., would the 300NM have less chamber pressure?

 

[Dave62677]

MRAD = cheaper if you stick with one caliber

AXMC = cheaper if you want to shoot multiple caliber

 

[91Eunozs]

Bit of a thread necro, but this one popped into my feed when I was looking for something else. Timely, or maybe kismet…

One of the instructors at a local custom/high end gun shop that specializes in long range precision rifles mentioned that SOCOM was moving away from 300NM because of the case void issues (“salt shaker round” is the term he used), and is moving to 300PRC.

He may be completely full of crap, but seemed credible. Anyone here have any insights?

I’m still a year or more out from building an ELR rifle (need to become competent with my 300WSM and 280AI before stepping up to that game), but was leaning heavily towards 300NM based on what I’ve read so far.

However, this bit of info (if true), and the fact that I can find factory 300PRC at my local Academy and Cabelas almost every time I’m there has me waffleing a bit.

Thoughts from the hive mind?

 

[Huskydriver]

Bit of a thread necro, but this one popped into my feed when I was looking for something else. Timely, or maybe kismet…

One of the instructors at a local custom/high end gun shop that specializes in long range precision rifles mentioned that SOCOM was moving away from 300NM because of the case void issues (“salt shaker round” is the term he used), and is moving to 300PRC.

He may be completely full of crap, but seemed credible. Anyone here have any insights?

I’m still a year or more out from building an ELR rifle (need to become competent with my 300WSM and 280AI before stepping up to that game), but was leaning heavily towards 300NM based on what I’ve read so far.

However, this bit of info (if true), and the fact that I can find factory 300PRC at my local Academy and Cabelas almost every time I’m there has me waffleing a bit.

Thoughts from the hive mind?

I switched back to 300 prc because the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. I can push a 220-3 class bullet 2850 with like 12% less powder in the prc vs the Norma. Sure... The Norma can go a tad faster but not a whole lot more before I had pressure issues.

Imo if your running long solids or 250 gr class bullets I would still go norma but if your staying near 220ies the prc is more efficient

 

[JB.IC]

The salt shaker effect entirely depends on the bullet and powder being used. If you’re trying to sling a 250 with fast powder then yes you’ll have a salt shaker.

I’ve had both a 300PRC (sold that rifle) and 300NM (currently have). I prefer the 300PRC. Though, I have a 300NM because I could get supplies when I needed them. Same could not be said about the 300PRC at the time.

 

[6AYoteHunter]

My 300 Norma shoots 230s 200 fps faster than the same barrel length in a 300 prc. No salt shaker issue with any slow power. N565, N568, N570, H1000, Retumbo, rl33 normally have a case fill of almost 100%. The key is to run lapua brass in the 300 norma. The norma brass for that cartridge has major issues.

 

[Huskydriver]

My 300 Norma shoots 230s 200 fps faster than the same barrel length in a 300 prc. No salt shaker issue with any slow power. N565, N568, N570, H1000, Retumbo, rl33 normally have a case fill of almost 100%. The key is to run lapua brass in the 300 norma. The norma brass for that cartridge has major issues.

How fast are you pushing a 230 and which bullet?

 

[6AYoteHunter]

I get awesome groups with the berger 230 hybrid otm at 3050 fps with N570. In the 300 win with lapua brass and 300 prc with ADG brass getting 2830 and 2850 fps with N570.

 

[Huskydriver]

I get awesome groups with the berger 230 hybrid otm at 3050 fps with N570. In the 300 win with lapua brass and 300 prc with ADG brass getting 2830 and 2850 fps with N570.

Never used n570 but with retumbo and h1000 I never saw anything that fast using Lapua brass. I could hit close to 2950 but the ejector flow was more than I was cool with to do it

 

[6AYoteHunter]

H1000 and retumbo can be too fast in a lot of 300 normas. It has to be due to various freebore lengths how much pressure is hit initially. I really like H1000 and retumbo in 300 win and 300 prc with 205-225 gr bullets. If you can ever find N568 it is probably the most versatile of the slower powders. N570 is good for 230 gr and heavier. Have a friend shooting 245 gr berger at 2870 fps in his norma. If I can find more N570 I plan to develop a load using that combo. That bullet does amazing in the wind.

 

[TripleBull]

My data is probably an outlier, since my AX-MC has a 30" barrel in 300 PRC and I'm guessing that it's a fast barrel. With factory 225 ELDMs, it started out at ~2940FPS and by the 100th round, it was running around 2990FPS.

For handloading, I've tried RL-26, VV 565, 568 and 570. 565 was very predictable in terms of SD and had no pressure signs with 230 ATips at over 3000FPS, but more than that, it shot very consistently at ELR. I ran out of scope elevation at 1.5 miles and at that distance, getting hits on 30" steel seemed suspiciously straightforward. Probably was just a lucky day.

I'd suspect that if everything else was kept equal, a 300NM shooting 250 ATips or heavy Bergers should be comparable with maybe another 100 or 200 yards of reach compared to the PRC.

Loads of 300 PRC handload info here:

300 PRC

I decided to mine the 300 PRC thread in the ELR subforum for handload data ahead of starting to work up a load for my rifle, working backwards from recent posts. I think I fully mined that thread as of today (11/27/19) but if I missed any please plug them in or post your own load data. I know...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Long Range 338]

Bit of a thread necro, but this one popped into my feed when I was looking for something else. Timely, or maybe kismet…

One of the instructors at a local custom/high end gun shop that specializes in long range precision rifles mentioned that SOCOM was moving away from 300NM because of the case void issues (“salt shaker round” is the term he used), and is moving to 300PRC.

He may be completely full of crap, but seemed credible. Anyone here have any insights?

I’m still a year or more out from building an ELR rifle (need to become competent with my 300WSM and 280AI before stepping up to that game), but was leaning heavily towards 300NM based on what I’ve read so far.

However, this bit of info (if true), and the fact that I can find factory 300PRC at my local Academy and Cabelas almost every time I’m there has me waffleing a bit.

Thoughts from the hive mind?

I've got a couple 300NM and have several buddies with 300 PRC. Ignoring the ability to handload and just address the SOCOM portion of your question - you have to consider that all of the SOCOM rifles will be shooting the same factory ammo and the 300NM may not play nice in this realm due to the case capacity vs load density. The 300 PRC has a better reputation in that sense. Also understand that SOCOM is fretting over the way the powder lays in the case when taking shots at extreme angels, more than likely most of us will not be shooting from helilcopters or such very soon.

I've had very decent luck with factory 300NM Norma ammuntion as well as the Hornady stuff. Depending on the rifle which one it likes better. I haven't finalized a hand load due to not wanting to burn up my components with factory ammo more available. The one load I did build was with 208gr. Hornady bullets and R33 and was a mild load pushing over 3000 fps. The heavies are the trendy thing to do but this is a fairly lightweight hunting rifle and I thought the reduced recoil might be a nice touch.

Both work and work well. The 300 PRC is probably more versatile in the end due to the smaller bolt face and very similar performance.

 

[Ebar48]

I own both, factory ammo: 300 PRC all day. Reload or might reload in the future: 300NM. Of the 2 I like to 300 NM significantly better but I reload. my 300 PRC load is about 2850 in a 30” and my 300NM is 3050. Both with 230 Bergers. Benefit of the NM is you can run 3k without a ton of pressure helping brass and barrel life. Out to 2K yards the benifits of one over the other are kinda redundant for either one, and if you bump to 3k you want neither, look at a 37XC or CT. Your better off buying a 300PRC setup and getting a 37XC barrel / LM bolt face to swap to if you want to ever go farther. For 2K and factory ammo, 300 PRC every day.

 

[912173]

I think shooting factory ammo the prc would be more cost effective. I went 300nm because it was the easiest way to get berger 230s comfortably into the 2900-3000fps range with a normal 26" barrel and have room to spare in the magazine. "No replacement for displacement" as they say with engines. Either the MRAD or AI should be able to bolt swap to the other cartridge.

 

[Dough300]

I'd chose the 300wm simply because of off the shelf ammo availability. If OI am on the road hunting some where and my ammo gets lost or damaged. I feel I can likely find Ammo some where in 300wm. 30-06 would be my next choice just for ammo availability.

 

[JustSendit]

One of the instructors at a local custom/high end gun shop that specializes in long range precision rifles mentioned that SOCOM was moving away from 300NM because of the case void issues (“salt shaker round” is the term he used), and is moving to 300PRC.

He may be completely full of crap, but seemed credible. Anyone here have any insights?

I think it’s pretty unlikely anyone is moving away from 300nm anytime within the next 10 years.

The powder stack probably has an effect and would be most recognized shooting angles. Because the rifles orientation puts the powder forward or aft. In testing it’s really in the noise of the SD of the ammunition so no effect.

Personally I shot it at angles of 20 degrees at targets beyond 1500, if there’s a problem I couldn’t see it.

 

[3rdfocal]

If it was me, it would be an AXSR in 300NM.

 

[holen'one]

I would get a 300nm and launch 245’s all day long. You can also do 300nm improved for a little extra boom down the tube. Also able to mag feed from a 3.850 cip mag

 

[millertime2]

Running around 3000 with 245 EOL with N570 in my Norma. You can just faintly see where the ejector was on the case and it’s not every case primers look perfect. I‘m not sure your gonna get there with a 300 PRC it’s almost like 570 was made for the Norma.

 

[Huskydriver]

Running around 3000 with 245 EOL with N570 in my Norma. You can just faintly see where the ejector was on the case and it’s not every case primers look perfect. I‘m not sure your gonna get there with a 300 PRC it’s almost like 570 was made for the Norma.

Yea if guys are hitting 3k fps with 245s and n570 that's a game changer vs my experience with h1k or retumbo for sure to swing everything back towards the Norma. That's screaming fast

 

[kthomas]

Yea if guys are hitting 3k fps with 245s and n570 that's a game changer vs my experience with h1k or retumbo for sure to swing everything back towards the Norma. That's screaming fast

That's very fast.

I don't have any experience with N570 and my .300NM, but sending 230 hybrids at 3k fps with Retumbo in my rifle is into pressure.

Maybe N570 is better at producing velocity while not getting into pressure than Retumbo and H1000 in the Norma. I hear that N565 is great as well in the Norma.

 

[millertime2]

Litz won a comp with N565 and the new 245 hybrid in a MRAD 300 Norma

 

[holen'one]

Plus a .433 g7 for the 245 Berger hybrid is voodoo magic for long range

 

[stefan73]

Has anyone tried RE 33 for the 300PRC?