KOD you are the 3rd person that has had the exact same trouble with the TT and bergara. I have read two other reports identical to yours. Mine does not do this but I have the tt special and only goes down to 1.5lbs. Both guys switched to the new elf trigger and love it.
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Bergara B-14R Range Report and Assessment
- Thread starter Kisssofdeath
- Start date
I took a few photos showing the TT trigger but will only show a couple since I'm not happy with it and it probably isn't going to work out for me.
Well, just got done with Midway USA; got a return label and the TT will be going back for a refund. I was pretty excited to have a 4-6oz trigger but not with this one. Remember, I am not knocking TriggerTech, just saying this trigger isn't working with my rifle and it cause a lot of issues with these groups. Groups, I'm sure would have been even better with a consistent pull and solid primer strikes.
Anyway, here are the results from shooting. I shot all the SK brands and the two Federal GM Match and Ultra Match.
The following is random information that pops in my head while I'm typing.
Last time I cleaned this barrel was around the first 400 rounds. I have shot well over 1,000 after that and have not cleaned it since, including now. Now would be a good time to get some borescope photos.
I didn't run anything through the barrel between ammo such as a boresnake or other.
I went from one target to the next without any shots in between, off paper.
Conditions were good, slight wind but nothing major to make me want to stop. There's always a slight breeze.
Both action bolts in/lbs were set at 20 for all targets.
All targets were shot suppressed with a Silencerco Sparrow that probably has close to 1,000 rounds since cleaning.
I'm concerned with some vertical stringing I had that was present on every target. I'm asking you, the reader, do you believe this is this caused by light primer strikes or a contributing factor?
Multiple issues with the trigger light strikes, firing on closing the bolt, trigger pulls ranging from a few oz to 13 oz.
Overall I am really happy with the B-14R and after today reinforces my already positive feelings towards the rifle. I would buy it again knowing what I know now.
I have well over 2,000 rounds through this rifle without a single feel, extract or eject issue. Until today I have not had any misfire issues.
Ammo was shot in the following order. SK STD+, SK Flatnose Match, SK Rifle Match, SK Pistol Match, SK Pistol Match Special, Fed GM Match and last was Fed GM Ultra Match.
Targets displayed are from what I think are best to worst "subjective, I know". A 10 for 10 is very rare for me but I did get one with the SK Rifle Match. BTW, for those that don't know, a 10 for 10 for me means all ten 5-shot groups on that plate were 1/2" or less. Trust me, it's hard to put "for me" 50 shots together without a single "anything" screwing it up.
SK Rifle Match, may end up buying a case of this lot number if possible.
Federal GM Ultra Match. This is probably as accurate as the SK Rifle Match but did have a few "not so good" groups. These could have been caused by the trigger, I don't specifically remember so I didn't make a note.
SK Pistol Match.
SK Standard Plus. Cheapest ammo I shot today. Not bad overall.
SK Pistol Match Special. Because of the tighter groups maybe this should be in front of the SK STD+. The AD was not the first shot.
SK Flatnose Match. This bullet has its own unique bullet profile that is in between a round nose and EPS. The AD was not the first shot.
Last place belongs to Federal GM Match ammo.
Conclusion:
If I disregard the last two targets, overall I had 27, 5-shot groups out of 50 that measured LESS THAN 1/2", I think that's pretty good for my skill level. Keep in mind, I still get to test the Eley and Lapua.
Always remember, "and I have to remind myself" you can't grade a rifles accuracy with without using match ammo.
The two best ammo was shot in third and seventh "last" place. No cleaning of any sort between ammo brands. No fouling shots before switching ammo. THIS IS MY OPINION, this doesn't matter in a mass produced factory barrel. The accuracy level just isn't there to make a difference. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to shoot 3-5 shots before switching ammo, do what makes you feel best or gives you the most confidence in your results.
You know the old saying, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.
Stay tuned, more to come. Now to find a damn trigger.
Well, just got done with Midway USA; got a return label and the TT will be going back for a refund. I was pretty excited to have a 4-6oz trigger but not with this one. Remember, I am not knocking TriggerTech, just saying this trigger isn't working with my rifle and it cause a lot of issues with these groups. Groups, I'm sure would have been even better with a consistent pull and solid primer strikes.
Anyway, here are the results from shooting. I shot all the SK brands and the two Federal GM Match and Ultra Match.
The following is random information that pops in my head while I'm typing.
Last time I cleaned this barrel was around the first 400 rounds. I have shot well over 1,000 after that and have not cleaned it since, including now. Now would be a good time to get some borescope photos.
I didn't run anything through the barrel between ammo such as a boresnake or other.
I went from one target to the next without any shots in between, off paper.
Conditions were good, slight wind but nothing major to make me want to stop. There's always a slight breeze.
Both action bolts in/lbs were set at 20 for all targets.
All targets were shot suppressed with a Silencerco Sparrow that probably has close to 1,000 rounds since cleaning.
I'm concerned with some vertical stringing I had that was present on every target. I'm asking you, the reader, do you believe this is this caused by light primer strikes or a contributing factor?
Multiple issues with the trigger light strikes, firing on closing the bolt, trigger pulls ranging from a few oz to 13 oz.
Overall I am really happy with the B-14R and after today reinforces my already positive feelings towards the rifle. I would buy it again knowing what I know now.
I have well over 2,000 rounds through this rifle without a single feel, extract or eject issue. Until today I have not had any misfire issues.
Ammo was shot in the following order. SK STD+, SK Flatnose Match, SK Rifle Match, SK Pistol Match, SK Pistol Match Special, Fed GM Match and last was Fed GM Ultra Match.
Targets displayed are from what I think are best to worst "subjective, I know". A 10 for 10 is very rare for me but I did get one with the SK Rifle Match. BTW, for those that don't know, a 10 for 10 for me means all ten 5-shot groups on that plate were 1/2" or less. Trust me, it's hard to put "for me" 50 shots together without a single "anything" screwing it up.
SK Rifle Match, may end up buying a case of this lot number if possible.
Federal GM Ultra Match. This is probably as accurate as the SK Rifle Match but did have a few "not so good" groups. These could have been caused by the trigger, I don't specifically remember so I didn't make a note.
SK Pistol Match.
SK Standard Plus. Cheapest ammo I shot today. Not bad overall.
SK Pistol Match Special. Because of the tighter groups maybe this should be in front of the SK STD+. The AD was not the first shot.
SK Flatnose Match. This bullet has its own unique bullet profile that is in between a round nose and EPS. The AD was not the first shot.
Last place belongs to Federal GM Match ammo.
Conclusion:
If I disregard the last two targets, overall I had 27, 5-shot groups out of 50 that measured LESS THAN 1/2", I think that's pretty good for my skill level. Keep in mind, I still get to test the Eley and Lapua.
Always remember, "and I have to remind myself" you can't grade a rifles accuracy with without using match ammo.
The two best ammo was shot in third and seventh "last" place. No cleaning of any sort between ammo brands. No fouling shots before switching ammo. THIS IS MY OPINION, this doesn't matter in a mass produced factory barrel. The accuracy level just isn't there to make a difference. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to shoot 3-5 shots before switching ammo, do what makes you feel best or gives you the most confidence in your results.
You know the old saying, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.
Stay tuned, more to come. Now to find a damn trigger.
Well, just bought the Elftmann Tactical 700 SE. As a bonus it's almost $50 cheaper than the TT Diamond and is advertised to adjust down to 2 oz. Hmm, yeah I'll believe that when I'm shooting it.
Another reason I went with Elftmann is the also have the straight trigger bow as well as the curved in the same package. Hopefully it won't disappoint.
Another reason I went with Elftmann is the also have the straight trigger bow as well as the curved in the same package. Hopefully it won't disappoint.
Forgot to give thanks to nakoa01 for the trigger tip. Never knew Elftmann made one for the 700.
Also at least on of you all wanted to see photos of the beading area in the stock so here it is and a few more photos. Raining today but maybe tomorrow will be better.
Also at least on of you all wanted to see photos of the beading area in the stock so here it is and a few more photos. Raining today but maybe tomorrow will be better.
Curious as to your thoughts on the reticle subtention. Given the model you got is SFP, the subtension remains the same across the magnification range. I'm just curious in your opinion as to whether the reticle is too thick, too thin, or just right. And moreover, if you think that the reticle subtension might impede ringing all the accuracy potential out of the Bergara. Images of the Dichro 4D reticle just don't seem to do it justice.
In about 4 days my XLR new to me chassis will be here! So tomorrow weather permitting I will be out with tractor and chainsaw working on extending my range.
I am currently at 156 yards but hope to push to 250.
When I get some extra cash I’ll buy some different match ammo and see what works at 200 plus.
I am currently at 156 yards but hope to push to 250.
When I get some extra cash I’ll buy some different match ammo and see what works at 200 plus.
I don't consider 4D Dichro reticle having subtensions. Unless you are referring to the distance between the center dot and the beginning of the red on the crosshairs. This is what I have and how you see it is how it really works "color wise".
When I first looked through mine I was worried the reticle would be too small especially the center dot After adjusting the eyepiece to make the center dot clear it also enlarged it and the crosshairs really nice for me. For me the entire scope is perfect for what I do and the reticle is perfect for my use. I have some FFP scopes and at lower magnifications they are worthless for ranging because the subtensions are too small. When you crank up the power to see the reticle you are on a magnification that would be correct for ranging with a SFP scope. For example I have an older Bushnell 5x-30x SFP but has the range indicator identified at 10x. If I had this same scope but in FFP I would still have to put the magnification on at least 10x to make the reticle big enough to use the subtensions for ranging. To me with FFP scope I lose the ability of the reticle at lower magnification and really gain nothing on higher magnification.
Thanks KOD. I guess a better way to ask and clarify my questions would be: when you are shooting, say at the 50yd targets you've posted pics of, does the center dot on the 4D Dichro cover the target dot (1" ?) you're aiming at or is there a protion of the target visible?
Ahh, yeah that makes more sense to me. The dot on the 4D Dichro will cover maybe 1/8" at 55 yards. The center of my bullseye rings are 1/4", I can see white around the dot when the dot is centered in that 1/4" hole.
To continue on with the construction of the B-14R here are a few photos of the bolt disassembly. Super easy to take apart. After removing the bolt from the receiver you stick something through the hole as shown. This will keep the bolt spring compressed; you can then simply unscrew the rear section. The firing pin along with it's spring are still captured in the front section. I would have removed the front section but I don't have the right size or type of roll pin to put back and I thought reusing this one might weaken it causing it to start moving. For cleaning purposes this is all one would need to do in the disassembly process. I have taken apart a lot of different designed bolts and this is by far the quickest and easiest way to disassemble and reassemble a bolt. It's equivalent to taking a Ruger Mark IV apart vs. the other generations if that gives you an idea. Just look at the quality machining, no plastic anywhere, the bolt shroud might be a cast part but the rest looks machined to me. For people who ask, "why does this rifle cost around $950", well, things like this is why. I'm liking this rifle more and more.
I hope these photos are beneficial to the readers. My main goal is to educate, help and serve the rimfire community as a whole. When I say "educate" that doesn't mean I'm smarter, what it means is I want to give exposure of different equipment to people that may otherwise never know, that's education in the simplest form.
I hope these photos are beneficial to the readers. My main goal is to educate, help and serve the rimfire community as a whole. When I say "educate" that doesn't mean I'm smarter, what it means is I want to give exposure of different equipment to people that may otherwise never know, that's education in the simplest form.
I'm confused and can't tell for sure by looking at the pics, but does this gun have a SEPARATE firing pin from the striker assembly??
The striker ass'y looks very short and I don't see a pointy firing pin sticking out the front....
EDIT: After re-reading your post, I see that the firing pin IS separate and is spring loaded in the front of the bolt. Not as bad as a separate falling hammer (like a 10/22) but much slower lock time (at least 2x as slow) than a true striker fired assembly.
The striker ass'y looks very short and I don't see a pointy firing pin sticking out the front....
EDIT: After re-reading your post, I see that the firing pin IS separate and is spring loaded in the front of the bolt. Not as bad as a separate falling hammer (like a 10/22) but much slower lock time (at least 2x as slow) than a true striker fired assembly.
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I would hazard to guess that all the bolts pictured are all cocked. That said, the firing pin is retracted. Beyond that, my experience with RF firing pins is that they are not the same as a CF firing pin. Keep in mind that a RF firing pin needs to evenly strike across the rim of the cartridge to ignite the round, therfore they are often larger in dia at the point of impact if round, or a blade-type unit - ala 10/22 and others.
Got the Elftmann in today and it won't fit in the bottom metal. The bottom of the trigger body where the shoe comes out is .412" wide, the opening on the trigger guard is .384". The stock trigger body is .296" I will call Elftmann on Monday and see what they say about this.
The Elftmann appears to be a really nice trigger. There was zero take up, nice break and just a bit of overtravel. The bolt was easier to operate with the Elftmann over the TT Diamond. I did an extensive amount of dry firing and the lowest reliable setting I could get was 9.5 oz on an average of 10 pulls with my Lyman gauge. That's a far cry from the advertised 2 oz. After this and the TT Diamond I don't put any faith in advertised trigger pull weight any more.
The only good thing about all of this is the crappy weather "rain or wind" is preventing me from shooting anyway.
The Elftmann appears to be a really nice trigger. There was zero take up, nice break and just a bit of overtravel. The bolt was easier to operate with the Elftmann over the TT Diamond. I did an extensive amount of dry firing and the lowest reliable setting I could get was 9.5 oz on an average of 10 pulls with my Lyman gauge. That's a far cry from the advertised 2 oz. After this and the TT Diamond I don't put any faith in advertised trigger pull weight any more.
The only good thing about all of this is the crappy weather "rain or wind" is preventing me from shooting anyway.
The more research I do, the more I'd be inclined to place the 'blame' for not being able to achieve advertised trigger pull weights in the Bergara (CF and RF) on the rifle(s) themselves, not the trigger. Case in point - Timney has stated that because of the heavier firing pin spring (et al) in the Bergara, that minimum advertised trigger pull weight will not be achievable.
I've had conversations with a couple of Bergara reps and factory folk. They acknowledge that the firing pin spring is heavy and that it may affect the trigger pull weight on aftermarket triggers. I didn't get a good feeling that they are working on correcting or modifying anything to make the Bergara's more compatible with aftermarket triggers.
That could be the case. I called Elftmann twice today, left a message first time and second time reached a receptionist or Office Manager and she took my name and number and said the owner would be in soon and would give me a call. That never happened. I'll let tomorrow pass before getting rid of this Elftmann. I'm not willing to modify my trigger guard only to have the Elftmann act like the TT Diamond did when I get it to the bench.
I will call to check the size of this Jewel trigger just to make sure it fits and then get it. On the plus side triggers just keep getting cheaper and cheaper. Only downfall to this one is it doesn't have a safety.
I will call to check the size of this Jewel trigger just to make sure it fits and then get it. On the plus side triggers just keep getting cheaper and cheaper. Only downfall to this one is it doesn't have a safety.
I can certainly agree with your view of the CZ 457. Mine is an MTR and is second only to my V-22. They both have Trijicon 5-50 x 56 scopes on them. IMO, the 457 is a great deal for the money. My trigger is at 10 oz. with a spring swap and a good lap job with 3 micron film.
It is a fact that the higher the firing pin spring force you have, the more force will be imparted into the FCG. The beauty of the Trigger Tech Diamond is that they don't have sliding friction in the triggers. They use a roller to take advantage of rolling friction. KOD had a number of issues with his TTD which was a surprise to me. If I were to buy a B14R, I would see what spring rate my V-22 has in it and try and duplicate that into the Bergara. There is no sense in putting an over powered spring in it and the V-22 or Annie spring rate would likely be a good place to start. Naturally I would consider the FP striking size as the B14R looks huge in KODs photo. I may alter the FP nose as well to be more like an Annie. But that's just me.
KOD... Thanks for the write up and all of those great photos. I know all of that stuff takes up time.
Shawn,
The Bergara will require a much stronger striker spring with the spring loaded 2 piece FP arrangement.
It has to hit hard enough to overcome both the inertia of a stopped firing pin AND the spring holding it back.
Slows things way down and has to be compensated for with higher spring rates.
EDIT: You probably won't be able to modify the nose of the FP, as it will rotate (Not positive on this, but looking at the bolt face pic it looks round, not flat, like a Ruger).
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Hi Hellbender,
I would like to think that after 28 years in mechanical design I could overcome or at least minimize nearly any problem that I run across. ;-). My years in the shop as a welder and machinist help a bit too.
I do hear exactly what your saying. If you go up to entry #63 written by Kiss of Death, his last photo shows a rather large, round FP imprint created by his B14R.
The first photo below shows a stock Kriss Defiance FP. They use a cross pin set in a groove to prevent rotation of their FP. In the next two photo's you can see the original heavy spring and the much finer .014" wire spring that I replaced it with.
For me, problem solving is half of the fun.
Shawn Carroll
Hi KOD.... you showed me a Jewell trigger you were looking at and it had no safety on it. I just looked at a YouTube video of an NRL match. It looks like they need to safety their guns when transitioning from one position to another. Do you plan doing any formal matches?
Shawn
Shawn,
I know where you're coming from, I have a pretty complete shop (lathe, mill, etc, etc). I made a 40x into a repeater way back in 2009...before it was cool, LOL!
Just wanted you to know that it wouldn't be a simple spring change, most don't have your skills!
I know where you're coming from, I have a pretty complete shop (lathe, mill, etc, etc). I made a 40x into a repeater way back in 2009...before it was cool, LOL!
Just wanted you to know that it wouldn't be a simple spring change, most don't have your skills!
great write up, purchased 2 vudoo's in just the last month, got my Begara yesterday. If my picatinny rail gets in friday (didn't realize it didn't come with one) i'll do some shooting this weekend with all 3. Supposed to be in the 50's here. That trigger concerns me somewhat as i have my TT's in my vudoo's at about 8oz. But we'll give it a shot and see what happens. Hopefully i get as good of results as you
You don't need to safety if you have your bolt open during transitions. You do need a safety in a semi auto.
Your right... it is almost never one simple change.
My 18 lb. V-22 with a couple magazines.
Shawn
Jinxx,
Can you get your TTD to get bellow 8 oz. without having automatic discharges upon closing of the bolt? I have had two of them in my V-22 and 8 oz. is as low as I can go.
Shawn
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Hi Shawn, thanks for the compliments. I may do some formal shooting after I get this new house build finished. Problem is......it's in VA. I haven't broke ground and now everything is on hold for the time being until I see what happens with the new VA gun laws. I also noticed that trigger had no safety but thought I may give it a shot anyway. Elftmann still hasn't gotten back to me. I will call them again on Monday but more than likely I will send the Elftmann back and get the Jewel and save another $40.
A few hours ago I got back from an emergency trip to VA. Tired now but tomorrow I will see which bore guide fit. I have one that will work just don't remember which one it is.
Hello KOD,
You and I had talked about the safety less Jewel in a PM, the safety was not my concern. I didn't want you to have a trigger without a safety if you were considering shooting NRL. Jewel makes triggers with right and left safety like the one in the attachment below.
Shawn
Abingdon is the town, actually closer to Meadowview but anyone would know Abingdon location better. It's about 30 minutes east of Bristol, VA. My wife has her heart set on the property and I hate to disappoint her. I don't mind getting my AR's and AK's in but my suppressors may put me on the radar because I have to report them and the move to VA to the ATF.
Thanks, I'll take a look at that one. The main thing with the Jewel that caught my eye was its advertised pull weight along with the $170 price tag. Monday I am going to call someone with Bix'n Andy and ask a few questions about their TacSport Pro. Even with this Elftmann I am still getting more resistance pushing the bolt in and out and closing the handle than with the factory trigger. The TT Diamond was worse than the Elftmann.
DFC.... I have been chatting with KOD about his B14R and I agree with you. His multiple trigger issues are not the result of a strong firing pin spring.
Shawn
Shawn
I don't think I would worry about "getting put on the radar", you're already there. Lots of guys at my gun club have suppressors, they don't seem too worried.
Yes, lots of "stuff" going on in VA currently. I was at a gun show last weekend, most dealers sold out of AR's and 223 ammo. Largest crowd I have ever seen at this show, lots of semi handguns being sold as well. People standing in line to fill out 4473's! Even had local county officials there stating the "sanctuary" issue and not willing to enforce unconstitutional laws that may be passed.
Our governor is the best gun salesman in VA since our last president.
I originally asked because I was hoping you would be moving closer to me so I could view and drool over all your rimfires! As it stands you will be about 3 hours south of me. Nice area.
Good luck with your build and move.
LOL, well thanks for the rimfire comment, I do wish I had a few more shooting friends around. It's good to hear your suppressor friends are not worried, maybe I'm overreacting but I'm not giving up anything and I don't want to be labeled as a criminal. Of course this would only apply if I was a VA resident. It's times like this that makes me happy I bought the AK's I did and never sold any.
Since this photo was taken I have added two more MAK-90's, both milled receivers, one unmolested like the stamped receiver shown and one converted. All AK's are 7.62 and consist of left to right, Modified Molot Vepr, original Molot Vepr, modified Saiga, original Saiga, Arsenal SAM7SF (folding stock) and an original Norinco MAK-90. Not included in the photos is a Molot Vepr 12.
Since this photo was taken I have added two more MAK-90's, both milled receivers, one unmolested like the stamped receiver shown and one converted. All AK's are 7.62 and consist of left to right, Modified Molot Vepr, original Molot Vepr, modified Saiga, original Saiga, Arsenal SAM7SF (folding stock) and an original Norinco MAK-90. Not included in the photos is a Molot Vepr 12.
I fully understand your comments about "not giving up anything and labeled a criminal". There are thousands here that feel the same way. Reason why over 100 VA counties declared 2nd Amendment Sanctuary.
I'm sure this current movement has "woke up" the silent majority and we will see a major change in the leadership of this commonwealth come next election for Delegates, Senators and Governor.
Now back the Bergara B-14R.
I'm sure this current movement has "woke up" the silent majority and we will see a major change in the leadership of this commonwealth come next election for Delegates, Senators and Governor.
Now back the Bergara B-14R.
Please do some ammo testing without your suppressor.
I and others have had nothing but problems with suppressors on rimfires. Yes they are cool and movie quiet.
The most prevalent issue is the lead ammo builds up EXCEEDINGLY quick in the suppressor. It also does NOT just build up it flakes off and effects groups as early as 200 rnds and consistently at 400 rnds (and ive tested ALOT of times). I will nvr shoot for accuracy or in a match with a suppressor again.
Other issues you will run into is lead buildup all the way into the action and mags and barrel all of which will effect the consistency in lockup that the rimfire HAS to have to be accurate.
They have their use. Rimfire accuracy is not one. ESP in rifles built with high tolerances.
GL
DT
I and others have had nothing but problems with suppressors on rimfires. Yes they are cool and movie quiet.
The most prevalent issue is the lead ammo builds up EXCEEDINGLY quick in the suppressor. It also does NOT just build up it flakes off and effects groups as early as 200 rnds and consistently at 400 rnds (and ive tested ALOT of times). I will nvr shoot for accuracy or in a match with a suppressor again.
Other issues you will run into is lead buildup all the way into the action and mags and barrel all of which will effect the consistency in lockup that the rimfire HAS to have to be accurate.
They have their use. Rimfire accuracy is not one. ESP in rifles built with high tolerances.
GL
DT
I changed from 1" tubes to 1 1/4" long ago. I found that if i used the bigger tube with K baffles bored to .250" the accuracy was better for me. I agree that the 1" tubes look better on a RF but I live in the real world, you don't always get what you want. I have one 17 cal suppressor and its for my 17 Hornet, I need a couple more. I have used my 22 Hornet suppressor on a 17 HMR with great results. Currently I see no difference in accuracy with or without an attached suppressor. I'll use a 1 1/4" on my new B14R if it ever gets here.
I may try it unsuppressed. Out of all my threaded rimfires I have seen an increase in accuracy when using the Sparrow. I have had mixed results with my AAC Ti-Rant 45M. FWIW, muzzle brakes I have used with success are the Lantec Dragon and the Silencerco ASR.
Dude...you're moving in my back yard...hit me up when you're here and I can fill you in on all of the local matches...
Hey, yeah I see you're in East Tenn. I would imagine Bristol, Kingsport or Johnson City? My original intent was to move to TN but my wife found property she had to have in VA. All this took place before the 2nd Amendment assault has taken place.
