Gunsmithing Bergara barrels

#51
Re: Bergara barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: __JR__</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> now I teach supervisors for a living. </div></div>

That's my man
wink.gif
You make me proud grasshoppa.lol
 
#54
Re: Bergara barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jagged77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm most likely gonna try one on a Tikka T3 .260 build. Wish me luck! </div></div>
Dont forget to let us know how it goes. For the price its definitely worth trying one.
 
#55
Re: Bergara barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mikki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jagged77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm most likely gonna try one on a Tikka T3 .260 build. Wish me luck! </div></div>
Dont forget to let us know how it goes. For the price its definitely worth trying one. </div></div>

It is worth trying one, especially as they are half the price of the well known makers and £100 less than Border.

The build will be:
Tikka T3 action
Bergara 1:8 twist chambered to .260 (barrel profiling and chambering etc. to be done by Valkyrie rifles)
Manners T4A
EGW 20 MOA base

Need to sort out a DBM from either CDI or Roedale at some point too.
 
#56
Re: Bergara barrels

Please, everyone take a deep breath and say " George has spoken" ok. Now say it with me " George has spoken". A true artist in the game of precision has spoken and yet it continues to go on and on about this Bergara barrel. For fuck sake, if he has no clue about them then that should tell you something. If it doesn't........... then this is not your only problem. Thats my 2 cents. George, keep rockin' the precision because you KNOW what is going on. Tommy
 
#57
Re: Bergara barrels

Perhaps George doesnt know as much as you might think he does. All due respects to George but just because George has never heard of Bergara doesnt exactly mean thats it for Bergara. Give George enough time and he may or may not be able to give a true speal on these barrels. Im sure Bergara barrels arent just waiting for George's approval. Who the fuck is George anyway, you make him sound like an asshole and Im sure he's a very fine gentleman indeed, try and cut the man some slack.
 
#58
Re: Bergara barrels

Good concept, but the steel sourcing would keep me from trying them. I'm sure there's a reason no stateside barrel makers are bothering. Could be that Savage-Stevens has a patent on the design here, but that's just my guess.

BTW-more folks can swing on George's nutsack than can ride a ferris wheel!
 
#59
Re: Bergara barrels

Sorry Mikky that you may have taken my post wrong as I have not made George Gardner of GA Precision "look" like an asshole. As one of the major players in the precision rifle world (not just paper punching), George is just the opposite. He is always willing and FULLY able to help people to become better shooters. I ONLY praise him and his abilities. I suggest that before you ask, "who the fuck is George anyway" you might do a little research on here or any other operator site as to who he is. Oh, and get your panties out of a wad anyway, it's not becoming of a gentleman. Good day.

+1 Sobrbiker883
 
#60
Re: Bergara barrels

Eh! I think George himself would agree that just because he hasnt heard of this manufacturer or that manufacturer doesnt mean that they dont exist. Good day to you too.
 
#61
Re: Bergara barrels

As it is at the moment no-one has come forward and presented any fact about how these barrels perform on a precision rifle (I'm taking about the barrel blanks they supply, not the drop in factory replacements or Savage lock ring system). They may be a load of rubbish but no one will know for sure until they've been tried! I've been in contact with two smiths here in the UK that have had experience with them and the feedback I've had is that they machine well and perform well on the rifles.

The cost for me to get one of these barrelled is approx $805 vs a Pacnor or Tru-Flite at $1130. Of the $805 for the Bergara approx 68% is smithing and proofing costs. Its an expensive game over here so I'm taking quite a risk going with this barrel if it turns out to be crap. We'll just have to wait and see!
 
#62
Re: Bergara barrels

Jagged77, it seems that it is very expensive over there to play in the custom game. If you go the Bergara route, I truly hope that it turns out well for you. Good luck with the new barrel,whatever brand you choose, and keep us posted to the results as it will help in getting the word out on that maker. Good or bad. Good luck and be safe. T
 
#63
Re: Bergara barrels

OK so Bergara barrel blank is now in hand. Its in 6.5mm 1:9 twist (I was told however it was 1:8?!) still the 9 will have to do. Its marked as a Rem varmint contour but differs on the actual contour (as you can see from the photos, its next to a Rem SPS Varmint in .308) - top and bottom dia's are the same as the Rem though.
Its going on a Tikka T3 action so it will need a skim to reduce the OD slightly. Flutes look smart and well machined although my own personal preference is non fluted. I'd also prefer a straight taper however it is what it is.
Considering it is half the money (here in the UK) of some of the well know barrels it looks pretty good. Proof of the pudding will be in the eating so they say so we'll see how it gets on once chambered and fitted.


04032011049.jpg


04032011047.jpg
 
#64
Re: Bergara barrels

Thats great, we'll soon have a decent verdict on these barrels. Please let us know what your findings are and how they stack up against the wisdom of previous posts made by some of our members here. Should be very interesting.
 
#67
Re: Bergara barrels

George of GAP may be as knowelable as anyone when it comes to putting guns together, but he is a bit lacking in social skills, when he answers a question in the manner he did a few pages back. Not really the professionalism that one might expect.
 
#68
Re: Bergara barrels

Manufactured using the most redbrick CNC machining processes, sweeping use of robotics, and with renowned nuisance vessel producer Ed Shirlene as an advisory for containerize cartridge production, Bergara barrels are one of the most tingling happenings in the world of shooting in the terminal 30 life of my wonder as a athlete making and working on gun barrels!
 
#69
Re: Bergara barrels

These are mass production barrels. Albeit totally cnc/robotically done and checked to close tolerances. They are a 'good' production barrel. If you were to replace your Savage or Remington barrel with one of these and wanted accuracy within one MOA I would say you won't be dissapointed. If you wanted benchrest accuracy, I think you would be dissapointed.

However, that very statement also shows that the individual care and dedication of a good cut-rifled barrel is not the same. It is, to use a pun, a cut above. Bergara barrels will not meet the accuracy standards of most of the high end barrels. These will hold good groups. And by modern standards vs. older standards I think you would see a good improvement from them to the old. I don't think you will see the super tight kind of accuracy that you will see in one of the one-on-one barrels made at better barrel-makers around the world. More specifically, the accuracy nuts here in the U.S.
wink.gif
 
#70
Re: Bergara barrels

Sandwarrior,

I could not disagree more. I have over twenty years of experience in manufacturing and mechanical engineering have spent the the last thirteen of those years designing and building machine tools for the the aerospace industry. Having said that, I should also say that I have no experience with Bergara except for watching their video regarding their manufacturing process, which I thought was rather impressive.

The point I'd like to make is in regards to mass production and the small diameter deep-hole honing technology that Bergara employs. When a company makes an investment in automation, they usually do so to reduce the cost and to improve the quality of their product. This applies to firearms at least as much as it does to any other product. The honing technology used by Bergara is very expensive which is why boutique barrel makers here in the US do not use it. I believe some larger barrel manufactures such as Sabre Defence use it with great success on their 50 BMG barrels. Whether or not Bergara properly employs the technology is another matter, but, the use of the technology certainly gives one the potential to consistently produce a higher quality holes than can other wise be achieved by the comparatively primitive technique of hand lapping. Bergara recognized the need for a consistently sized well finished hole and went about producing in the best way possible. I would have done the same thing and certainly would not have considered hand-lapping the hole as the method of choice, before or after rifling, unless of course I could not afford the honing technology.

My point is that when properly employed automation meets traditional hand work, automation will win both quality and cost. Humans are inconsistent and have bad days from time to time and simply cannot compete against a good automated manufacturing process. This is so obvious that it hardly warrants the statement. The improvement in the quality of thousands of holes drilled trough an Airbus wing after automating the process was dramatic, and those holes where though a relatively thin aluminum panel, not 28" of stainless steel. Proper application of technology to the deep holes of rifle barrels will yield better, more consistent barrels, at lower cost. Why wouldn't it?
 
#71
Re: Bergara barrels

Theodore, if the technology used by Bergera barrels is so advanced and superior in quality to the the "old fashioned" methods of shops like Hart, Lilja, Krieger, and a few other passe makers, why is it that the most accurate rifles in the world use these. I have not once, in quite a few years of benchrest shooting, seen the Bergera name in any kind of winners equipment list, or for that matter any losers lists.
The average benchrest shooter will spare no expence or trouble to drain the last ounce of accuracy from a gun, and like I said, your beloved Bergera are compleatly unknown to the vast majority of the benchrest world.
 
#72
Re: Bergara barrels

so "George" has never seen a decent buttoned barrel?

Wow,...he leads a sheltered life unless Border and LW produce junk???

Hmmm,..and Anschutz,...they also produce only buttoned barrels.
 
#73
Re: Bergara barrels

BBeyer,

I don't know why they don't use it. Perhaps they are unaware of it or it is simply to expensive for them. You need to ask them. Acquiring the deep hole honing technology would likely be a a serious financial commitment.

I have never used a Bergara barrel, not knowingly anyway, so to claim that their barrels are "beloved" by me is a bit of a stretch. Also, I did not imply that domestic boutique barrel makers produce bad barrels.

My point was simply that proper application of automation technology can potentially produce better barrels at lower cost and I would favor those who employ such technology.
 
#74
Re: Bergara barrels

Theodore, I have no experience with the barrel myself, but you suggest that the price of them may keep accuracy minded shooters from using them. If I am not mistaken, it has been stated on this trread that they are less money then the barrels that I mentioned. I honestly do not know a B.R. shooter that would shy away from a superior anything because of price.
I am certainly not putting down technology in any form, what I do say is that as of now the technology that is used by Bergera is an inferior technology to that of a good number of quality barrel makers. It maybe cheaper, I cant say, but it certainly has a long long way to go to show it has any way near the quality of the finished product, that is if accuracy is a sign of quality, I think the majority of us agree that it is.
 
#75
Re: Bergara barrels

Having worked in factories all of my life, I will say the following. Everything that is done is done to increase the profit margin. What ever process thay are using is not because it is the best way to do it. It is the most cost effective way to do it. While quality is usually important, it is not the most important thing in a factory. Cost is.
 
#76
Re: Bergara barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheodoreKaragias</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior,

I could not disagree more. I have over twenty years of experience in manufacturing and mechanical engineering have spent the the last thirteen of those years designing and building machine tools for the the aerospace industry. Having said that, I should also say that I have no experience with Bergara except for watching their video regarding their manufacturing process, which I thought was rather impressive.

The point I'd like to make is in regards to mass production and the small diameter deep-hole honing technology that Bergara employs. When a company makes an investment in automation, they usually do so to reduce the cost and to improve the quality of their product. This applies to firearms at least as much as it does to any other product. The honing technology used by Bergara is very expensive which is why boutique barrel makers here in the US do not use it. I believe some larger barrel manufactures such as Sabre Defence use it with great success on their 50 BMG barrels. Whether or not Bergara properly employs the technology is another matter, but, the use of the technology certainly gives one the potential to consistently produce a higher quality holes than can other wise be achieved by the comparatively primitive technique of hand lapping. Bergara recognized the need for a consistently sized well finished hole and went about producing in the best way possible. I would have done the same thing and certainly would not have considered hand-lapping the hole as the method of choice, before or after rifling, unless of course I could not afford the honing technology.

My point is that when properly employed automation meets traditional hand work, automation will win both quality and cost. Humans are inconsistent and have bad days from time to time and simply cannot compete against a good automated manufacturing process. This is so obvious that it hardly warrants the statement. The improvement in the quality of thousands of holes drilled trough an Airbus wing after automating the process was dramatic, and those holes where though a relatively thin aluminum panel, not 28" of stainless steel. Proper application of technology to the deep holes of rifle barrels will yield better, more consistent barrels, at lower cost. Why wouldn't it?
</div></div>

To tell you the truth I am absolutely impressed with what Bergara does too. It's just that they are making mass produced barrels instead of hand made barrels. The quality standards have gone way up since 20 years ago in mass produced barrels.

What I am getting at is while they have joined the upper tier in mass produced barrels, mass produced barrels haven't come to the level yet of current top-notch custom barrels. Meaning, I'm impressed with Savage and what they've done since the mid to late nineties. It seems as though this is what Bergara has done and upped it with the latest most modern equipment. Meaning you can take a Savage rifle, off the shelf, and have it shoot sub-moa. Not uncommon at all. Same with a Bergara barreled rifle. What you are not going to do, is start winning benchrest and long range competitions with them based on accuracy alone. they are just not to the point where they can do that. Or they would already own them.

I don't think we disagree so much as maybe you don't understand what I consider super accurate? I tout Savage all the time. But, I can tell you I won't go to many benchrest comps around here and start winning with my three that shoot so outstandingly. They are good....just not THAT good.

Edit:

We also need to define "hand made" and "mass produced". Hand made barrels are broach cut, many with the latest and greatest measuring equipment employed during the processes. Top-notch barrels are by no means actually made by hand with stone age tools. They are made with brand new, top technology, that measures .0001" routinely.
The difference is they are given the needed inspections more times during their manufacture process and adjustments are made accordingly.

Mass produced on the other hand is still just putting everything between a set of tolerances for each process. While it has improved markedly from 20 years ago, it still doesn't bring each barrel to a consistent "gnats-ass" level of manufacture that "hand-made" does.
 
#77
Re: Bergara barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomme boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having worked in factories all of my life, I will say the following. Everything that is done is done to increase the profit margin. What ever process thay are using is not because it is the best way to do it. It is the most cost effective way to do it. While quality is usually important, it is not the most important thing in a factory. Cost is. </div></div>

My experience in aerospace has taught me otherwise.

What does the factory at which you are employed produce?
 
#78
Re: Bergara barrels

Guys, apologies for not posting a report sooner on this topic. As you can see from the pic the build is now complete. I had a couple of false starts, one was my fault - not clearing the barrel channel of the T4 enough which caused some interference (schoolboy error on my part... Tch!) the second was the crown needed re-doing. The muzzle is now threaded and capped with an invisible thread protector.

Specs on the build are:
Tikka T3 Varmint Stainless (originally .270)
Manners T4
Bergara heavy varmint contour chambered in .260 Rem
EGW HD 20MOA base
Hinterland Bolt and Shroud combo
Optilock Rings
Meopta 4-16 Tactical

I've also added a hardened steel recoil lug which replaced the standard aluminium one.

Anyway I am now in the load testing and evaluation stage. So far a combination of VV N160 and 139 Scenars have produced the best results, the best one achieving sub 1" groups at 200 yards. I've loaded a batch and will take it out to 500 and 1000 by Sat which should give a fair indication of performance.

NB, just to be clarify, the Manners T4 was ordered inletted for a standard Tikka T3 Varmint, the Bergara barrel has an extremely long 'D' or neck dimension (see photo in previous above post) which meant some elbow grease was required to get the stock to fit.

04062011082.jpg
 
#79
Re: Bergara barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinarms</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jagged77 how much more does a Lothar Walther barrel cost then the Bergara? </div></div>

sinarms, sorry I've never been quoted for one so can't comment, also you would need to factor in duty, tax, shipping etc.
 
#80
Re: Bergara barrels

I have used 6 BERGARRA bbls., all are outsanding shooters. The quality of the bbl and machine work is top notch. All have been remington "drop in" and I am building another .300 win mag now. Try 'em, you won't be disappointed.
 
#81
Re: Bergara barrels

One of the factories I worked at made parts various parts used in transmitions and suspensions for Ford,GM,Dodge,Mercedes,Cat,JD,IH. I'm sure a few others. Also made the 2 piece wheel nuts that are on every Semi that is made. I am sure the Aerospace industry you are held up to the parts you make. We were too, but time is money. I have seen the plant manager send out parts that were tagged as bad. But he sent them anyway. Tolerance stacking is just not in the firearm industry.
 
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