Berger 105 vs 109 hybrid in 6BR

[mjphawk]

I am in the process of building out a 6BR primarily to be used for PRS style shooting. Currently I am sourcing components while the build is in process. I plan to use Lapua brass, CCI 450 primers, and Varget (I have all of these components already). I'm planning on a 1:7.5 twist barrel but am no opposed to stepping up to a 1:7 if needed (I haven't purchased the barrel yet).

I'm down to the following two bullets as my top choices but could use some assistance in deciding between the two:

• Berger 105: seems to be the old reliable and I have been told it's almost difficult to find a 6BR that won't shoot these exceptionally well
• Berger 109: The BC difference seems rather significant with 0.2-0.3mil difference at 1,000 in a 10mph crosswind

I have heard that early users of the 109 had difficulties getting them to group and would get erratic results. Some folks have told me that this has been fully resolved whereas others still claim that the projectile can be temperamental.

I'm more concerned with a gun and load that I am 110% confident goes where I point it and doesn't have me second guessing equipment/load/etc. for my misses. For this reason I'm leaning with the reliable 105gr that nobody seems to have any issues with, but the ballistic advantage of the 109 is difficult to overlook.

I appreciate in advance the feedback.

 

[Ono]

You may want to be more concerned about where you will find powder and the CCI 450's.

 

[Kadams1563]

I have been researching this topic quite a bit for the 6GT. From what I have been gathering there is no real reason to buy the 109’s compared to the 105’s.

 

[spife7980]

You may want to be more concerned about where you will find powder and the CCI 450's.

Lapua brass, CCI 450 primers, and Varget (I have all of these components already)

Ahem

 

[mjphawk]

I have been researching this topic quite a bit for the 6GT. From what I have been gathering there is no real reason to buy the 109’s compared to the 105’s.

Thank you. I have read some of the same with respect to the value proposition not being there and the incremental cost isn't worth the BC; however, I'm not particularly worried about another $0.04/rd and was hoping to get some insight on the relative performance that people are experiencing in the wild.

Edit: I responded quickly anddidn’t intend to be dismissive. I had read similar itemsas referenced above but would be interested to know if you have a broader frame of reference.

 

[spife7980]

I'm planning on a 1:7.5 twist barrel but am no opposed to stepping up to a 1:7 if needed (I haven't purchased the barrel yet).

I see no downside to going 7 twist if you dont have to wait any longer for it. Could help if you do ever decide to go after a 115 weight bullet and wont hurt you in the least with what youve listed if not.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

There's at least one thread in the Reloading depot about the 105 v 109 debate. Seems at least a few guys are running the 109s with no issues at all for quite a while.

Eccentricity of Berger 109 Hybrid

Have any of you noticed runout on the 109 Hybrid? Have any of you received 109s to test from Berger? If so could you share your lot numbers? I have heard numerous reports from shooters that they could not get the 109 to run accurately. I am trying to asses issues found in my lot of...

www.snipershide.com

 

[mjphawk]

There's at least one thread in the Reloading depot about the 105 v 109 debate. Seems at least a few guys are running the 109s with no issues at all for quite a while.

Eccentricity of Berger 109 Hybrid

Have any of you noticed runout on the 109 Hybrid? Have any of you received 109s to test from Berger? If so could you share your lot numbers? I have heard numerous reports from shooters that they could not get the 109 to run accurately. I am trying to asses issues found in my lot of...

www.snipershide.com

Thanks, for my future reference, what is the difference between the Reloading and Reloading Depot forums? I thought Reloading depot was for pet loads so didn’t search extensively there. Thanks for the link.

 

[Tokay444]

There's at least one thread in the Reloading depot about the 105 v 109 debate. Seems at least a few guys are running the 109s with no issues at all for quite a while.

Eccentricity of Berger 109 Hybrid

Have any of you noticed runout on the 109 Hybrid? Have any of you received 109s to test from Berger? If so could you share your lot numbers? I have heard numerous reports from shooters that they could not get the 109 to run accurately. I am trying to asses issues found in my lot of...

www.snipershide.com

Did you read the conclusion?

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Thanks, for my future reference, what is the difference between the Reloading and Reloading Depot forums? I thought Reloading depot was for pet loads so didn’t search extensively there. Thanks for the link.

That's my understanding as well, but, as is tradition, theory != practice.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Did you read the conclusion?

Yup. My take away was that there is nothing inherently wrong with the 109. That thread has a couple guys posting real world groups/experience over a couple lots...I've only heard rumours of 'they will not shoot.' Not, 'here is an example of them not shooting.' Now if you want to see demonstrable evidence of a bullet just doing goofy shit, let me pull out my 70RDF data

 

[Gustav7]

Yup. My take away was that there is nothing inherently wrong with the 109. That thread has a couple guys posting real world groups/experience over a couple lots...I've only heard rumours of 'they will not shoot.' Not, 'here is an example of them not shooting.' Now if you want to see demonstrable evidence of a bullet just doing goofy shit, let me pull out my 70RDF data

Soooooo glad I decided against testing those 70 RDF's when I picked my last AR bullet lol... Went with 77TMK and am happy I did.

I'm down to the following two bullets as my top choices but could use some assistance in deciding between the two:

• Berger 105: seems to be the old reliable and I have been told it's almost difficult to find a 6BR that won't shoot these exceptionally well
• Berger 109: The BC difference seems rather significant with 0.2-0.3mil difference at 1,000 in a 10mph crosswin

I appreciate in advance the feedback.

Sounds like you're pretty set on one of those, but if not, may want to look into the 95 TMK. I ran 77's in my .223 and they shot well over multiple powders. I was just listening to a podcast with Josh from PVA and he was talking about how well the 95's shot, especially if you end up loading up near the top. He was basically saying the BC of the 95's were around 94% of the BC of the 105's, but was getting obviously better/higher velocities with the 95's. Just a thought.

 

[mjphawk]

Thanks to all for the response. I'll be reading through the other thread tonight.

I will give some thought to playing with the lighter bullets (I was happy with that strategy with my 308).

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’m running 109’s in 6x47 and 6dasher. Both have been extremely consistent lot to lot for me. All I have done is input my chrono MV with the generic Applied Ballistics custom drag curve and the dope has been spot on every lot.

Here is 1100 yds with 30.0gr varget in 6dasher running 2790fps. All I did was chrono, input MV into CDC. And shoot 300, 600, 800, 1k, 1100. Spot on every time.

 

[Dthomas3523]

For comparison sake, I always had to tweak BC and/or MV slightly on the 105’s lot to lot. Not much mind you. And they are and excellent bullet.

The 109 has be consistent lot to lot (so much so, for the type of shooting most of us do, I wouldn’t hesitate to take multiple lots and mix them up randomly). Which was the design intent of the newer LRHT Berger bullets.

For me, that’s worth it. For others it may not be. Both are great bullets.

 

[salks]

I had trouble with my first lot of 109. I suspected everything but the actual bullet until I heard other people having trouble . Berger's have always shot well for me. I checked everything. Like i said in other post they work great now IDK. I'm shooting them in a 6 CM 3000fps. I did have to true my BC to .312. Been spot on. The 109 has a better meplat with the MRT. I plan to keep using them.

 

[mjphawk]

Thanks. I read the other thread as well. Seems like the verdict is still out on these. Based on what I’ve read here, I’m currently leaning toward starting with the 105’s that I know will perform. After I have proven the gun/load/shooter all work well with the 105’s I’ll probably give the 109’s a try.

 

[kthomas]

I haven't tried the 109's, but I think 105's are a better projectile weight for a 6BR case.

The 105's are a great shooting bullet.

 

[mthomas001]

Are the 105's pointed"

 

[mthomas001]

I’m running 109’s in 6x47 and 6dasher. Both have been extremely consistent lot to lot for me. All I have done is input my chrono MV with the generic Applied Ballistics custom drag curve and the dope has been spot on every lot.

Here is 1100 yds with 30.0gr varget in 6dasher running 2790fps. All I did was chrono, input MV into CDC. And shoot 300, 600, 800, 1k, 1100. Spot on every time.

View attachment 7444455

Great info! So your dasher did better at "lower" velocites of around 2,790 vs. 2,930-ish? I have been wondering where to start my MV's in dasher w the 109's.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Are the 105's pointed"

Not from the factory, only the 109 LRHT are.

 

[mthomas001]

Thanks!!! Any ideas on the additional BC from pointing the bullets vs. not pointing?

 

[fx77]

for 6 BR...My rifle shoots <0.200 MOA with Berger 90 and 108 gr in 8 Twist Bartlein Barrel

 

[Tokay444]

Thanks!!! Any ideas on the additional BC from pointing the bullets vs. not pointing?

The consensus is that you’ll lose BC, but the value will be more consistent from bullet to bullet.

 

[mthomas001]

Yep I've heard that you can pick up .010 - .015 on the BC by pointing - thanks!

 

[Fig]

Just something to consider (from when I was in your shoes a few years ago), before you commit to a bullet...

Do one load development series with Siera 107s. I've tried both those Bergers, and the dtacs, and a couple of others, and I settled on the Siera MKs because it really did not seem to make much difference in precision for my actual shooting, or in the 1/10s of a mil dialing the turret, but I am paying between $100-$150 less per box of 500. If it made a difference for me I'm sure I'd be happy to pay more for impacts, but it honestly did not make a difference on paper calculations, or on the paper targets on the square range, or in my # of impacts per match. If anything the regular MKs might have had a slight edge.

Every two matches I can afford another jug of H4350, or several more boxes of primers. If you're ripping matches through the season saving $75 per match is going to add up to more shooting, practices, matches, whatever.

Don't let me dissuade you from getting the best bullet you can afford. I just found in the 6mm that I was paying for "the best" and it wasn't any better than the regular old HPBT Matchkings. YMMV, but I would at least run one box to see how they fly in your rifle.

When I figured it out I felt like those guys who run CCI in their match .22s with incredible precision, but here I am paying for Tenex and getting no better. You won't know till you try it in your rifle, but if it likes them it could really save you a lot of money if you're shooting a lot.

 

[mthomas001]

Thanks Fig!! Awesome info and much appreciated! I have some 107's on the way!

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just something to consider (from when I was in your shoes a few years ago), before you commit to a bullet...

Do one load development series with Siera 107s. I've tried both those Bergers, and the dtacs, and a couple of others, and I settled on the Siera MKs because it really did not seem to make much difference in precision for my actual shooting, or in the 1/10s of a mil dialing the turret, but I am paying between $100-$150 less per box of 500. If it made a difference for me I'm sure I'd be happy to pay more for impacts, but it honestly did not make a difference on paper calculations, or on the paper targets on the square range, or in my # of impacts per match. If anything the regular MKs might have had a slight edge.

Every two matches I can afford another jug of H4350, or several more boxes of primers. If you're ripping matches through the season saving $75 per match is going to add up to more shooting, practices, matches, whatever.

Don't let me dissuade you from getting the best bullet you can afford. I just found in the 6mm that I was paying for "the best" and it wasn't any better than the regular old HPBT Matchkings. YMMV, but I would at least run one box to see how they fly in your rifle.

When I figured it out I felt like those guys who run CCI in their match .22s with incredible precision, but here I am paying for Tenex and getting no better. You won't know till you try it in your rifle, but if it likes them it could really save you a lot of money if you're shooting a lot.

Where are you getting them $100 less per 500? I’d buy this for practice ammo.

 

[never_summer]

Put me down for a few thousand lol

 

[Fig]

SIERRA 6MM 107g HPBT BULLET MATCHKING 500/bx

Though, I go to the brick and mortar store and save a little more because no heavy shipping. I think the price is a little lower too.

I haven't even seen a 500ct box of Bergers in a while. It feels like when I want them it's always a bunch of 100ct boxes. So, you can look at it like +2 boxes or about a hundred bucks or thereabouts.

 

[Fig]

Again, I'm not saying the Bergers aren't better or worth more, just my own experience they were no better in terms of my own performance out of my own rifle.

I don't point or sort them either.

 

[WizManBooks]

I guess the Berger 109 hybrid is are a replacement for Berger’s 108 target, now discontinued.

 

[tcamel4]

I’m running 109’s in 6x47 and 6dasher. Both have been extremely consistent lot to lot for me. All I have done is input my chrono MV with the generic Applied Ballistics custom drag curve and the dope has been spot on every lot.

Here is 1100 yds with 30.0gr varget in 6dasher running 2790fps. All I did was chrono, input MV into CDC. And shoot 300, 600, 800, 1k, 1100. Spot on every time.

View attachment 7444455

This still hold true for you? I just tried some RDS through my 6br at 30 grains of varget. Barrel has 80 RDS on it and isn't done speeding up.
2825 fps, sd of 7. Lapua brass and cci 450. Shooting a ragged hole at 100 yds.

If I just throw the kestrel data in using the AB curve then I shouldn't need to modify anything to 1200 yds or so?

 

[Dthomas3523]

This still hold true for you? I just tried some RDS through my 6br at 30 grains of varget. Barrel has 80 RDS on it and isn't done speeding up.
2825 fps, sd of 7. Lapua brass and cci 450. Shooting a ragged hole at 100 yds.

If I just throw the kestrel data in using the AB curve then I shouldn't need to modify anything to 1200 yds or so?

Its held true for me. I’ve lost count of the lot numbers and all I’ve had to do is input chrono’d velocity. Well over 18 months (maybe longer).

Obviously, test with your equipment. But it’s still working for me.

 

[Dthomas3523]

This still hold true for you? I just tried some RDS through my 6br at 30 grains of varget. Barrel has 80 RDS on it and isn't done speeding up.
2825 fps, sd of 7. Lapua brass and cci 450. Shooting a ragged hole at 100 yds.

If I just throw the kestrel data in using the AB curve then I shouldn't need to modify anything to 1200 yds or so?

Just noticed you said RDS……then no, ignore what I just said.

I’m using 109 Berger. I can’t speak for an RDS.

 

[tcamel4]

Just noticed you said RDS……then no, ignore what I just said.

I’m using 109 Berger. I can’t speak for an RDS.

80 rounds on it, that's what that meant. Sorry. Just saying it isn't done speeding up yet. I'll try the custom curve model.

Thank you

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I've always ran 105s and loved them but I just got 1600 109s and im trading my buddy some 105s for 109s from the same lot. I have done a powder charge test with 8208 from my dasher and landed on 2900 fps with super low ES's. I just need to do a seating depth ladder test to nail down the groups.

 

[Jabot]

Used the custom curve in my kestrel for the 109s going 2790 fps. It was spot on out to 900. Shooting next weekend, targets out to 1100, will see if it holds up

 

[Krob95]

I’m running the 109’s in my 6BRA at 2930. Dope matches up perfect on my kestrel with the CDC. 26” 7.7tw bartlein. I will probably go 8tw next barrel and keep running these 109’s.

 

[Jabot]

I’m running the 109’s in my 6BRA at 2930. Dope matches up perfect on my kestrel with the CDC. 26” 7.7tw bartlein. I will probably go 8tw next barrel and keep running these 109’s.

Just curious why u would go with an 8 twist

 

[Krob95]

Just curious why u would go with an 8 twist

It was recommended to me by some fellas that have shot out many BRA barrels. They said they’ve had better results with 8tw barrels over the 7 and 7.5’s. I’m willing to believe them since they’ve shot 10’s of thousands of rounds combined.