Range Report Berger 109’s range report after a year

[Dthomas3523]

Berger 109’s are probably the most consistent lot to lot bullet I’ve used. This will be the 4th lot where all I’ve done is take the Applied ballistics custom drag curve and just input my MV from magnetospeed. Normally I’d shoot three or so at each distance, but I’ve become comfortable with these just shooting one as long as it all lines up.

Current Load:
Peterson Dasher brass (don’t tell Erik Cortina)
30.0 varget
109 berger
2790 MV

(If I input the same parameters into AB and StrelokPro, the berger box BC of .292 lines up perfectly as well)

 

[BallisticPrimate]

Impressive repeatability right there.

 

[phlegethon]

That really shows the value of quality components and a moderate load.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Impressive repeatability right there.

It is. They advertise they created the new bullets to keep BC within 1% across every bullet made. For me personally, it’s lived up to it.

Two 6gt barrele
Two dasher barrels
One 6x47

Hornady, Alpha, lapua, Peterson brass

AI and Lone Peak actions. Couple different scope to bore heights.

Every single combination only need the measured MV (and proper inputs like bore height and environment), when paired with the AB custom curve. Both with kestrel and garmin AB watches.

I didn’t tweak or lie to software about anything with any lot or rifle with this bullet for a year or more.

 

[Dthomas3523]

That really shows the value of quality components and a moderate load.

Very good point. I only ran 2950 in 6x47 and 6gt. Never attempted to run 3,000 or more.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Nice. I’ve only ran them in my GT but they have been flawless. I had a tried NC of .303 which has works across 3 different lots now. Running Hornady brass and CCI 450’s. 33.2 varget at 2870.

 

[Hoyt7mm]

I'm about to crack my first box of 109s. How are the tune windows compared to 105s?

Liking the Peterson Dasher brass?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I'm about to crack my first box of 109s. How are the tune windows compared to 105s?

Liking the Peterson Dasher brass?

Have 200 rnds of once fired Peterson dasher. The first firing went well. Haven’t gotten into the second firings yet, so I can’t say for sure. But I expect it to do well based on other Peterson brass I’ve used.

I have started running EC tuners on all my barrels. So I just set a jump like .020 and then adjust via tuner instead of seating depth. I wouldn’t imagine them being hard to tune as I rarely had issues with any bullet before I was running a tuner (most issues I see stem from shooters not having a proper plan for tuning).

I set these 109’s at .030 jump and they were about .4-.5 moa with that. I used the EC Tuner and dialed them to about .3moa. That took me about 20 rounds to get it dialed in.

 

[lte82]

Very good point. I only ran 2950 in 6x47 and 6gt. Never attempted to run 3,000 or more.

I ran the 109's @ 3000 fps at the Best in Texas. They shot fine. Mental booboo on my final stage (dialed an extra mil of elevation and couldn't see the misses flying over the target) cost me a win, still finished with 96-97% though. The only caveat I will say is that 109's did not do nearly as well as the 105's with varget in the 6x47, I had to go to RL16 to get them to group. Kind of strange to me since they are very similar bullets, but it definitely made a big difference.

 

[kthomas]

Good feedback!

Part of the reason why I'm a big fan of capstone products is because of the consistency of the components: I don't stray from Lapua cases or Berger bullets anymore.

Anytime I strayed from these brands, I would have issues with consistency that resulted in poor performance down range. Spent too much time, money and barrel life trying to make lesser products shoot.

Quality and consistency matters, especially in the reloading room. Glad the 109's are showing a lot of promise in consistency. If I didn't have thousands of 105 hybrids I need to shoot, I would be seriously considering the 109's for my 6BRA's.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Good feedback!

Part of the reason why I'm a big fan of capstone products is because of the consistency of the components: I don't stray from Lapua cases or Berger bullets anymore.

Anytime I strayed from these brands, I would have issues with consistency that resulted in poor performance down range. Spent too much time, money and barrel life trying to make lesser products shoot.

Quality and consistency matters, especially in the reloading room. Glad the 109's are showing a lot of promise in consistency. If I didn't have thousands of 105 hybrids I need to shoot, I would be seriously considering the 109's for my 6BRA's.

I’ve heard some guys didn’t like them as much as the 105’s. And I’m definitely not attempting to discredit that. I’ve personally had a good experience with the 109.

For shits and giggles, just went 7/7 (what I had in mag) on a 2moa circle @ 1k off a barricade using one bag only. 109’s running 2790. 8.4mil elevation and 1mil of wind.

Fairly large target, but I’m happy standing off a barricade.

 

[IPoutdoors]

Thanks for the updates

 

[salks]

I am shooting them in 6mm creedmore. 1:7 26" hawk hill barrel.
39.7gn H4350
cci #450
Lapua sr
3000 fps.
I seat them -.050
I did have to tweak BC to .312. If I could go out and take pics of my shots they would look much like the pics above.

 

[Caihlen]

Would you guys run these in a BR?

 

[kthomas]

Would you guys run these in a BR?

Buy a box of 100 and try it out. Normally I would say that 105's are better suited to the BR, but if you have a longer barrel, like say 28", then I don't see any reason why you couldn't push the 109's at a speed that are similar to Dthomas' above without having issues.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Would you guys run these in a BR?

I’m running 2790 in a dasher (6br speeds).

 

[phlegethon]

I’m running 2790 in a dasher (6br speeds).

Another fun experiment someone ought to do one day: 6 CM, 6 BR, and one or two from the middle (Dasher, 6x47) all loaded to the same speed: is there really a big difference in accuracy and velocity dispersion? I know when I accidentally downloaded my 6 CM to 2900 it shot amazingly, not sure if that was the powder or going slow.

 

[Caihlen]

Cool running’s

 

[Changed]

Another fun experiment someone ought to do one day: 6 CM, 6 BR, and one or two from the middle (Dasher, 6x47) all loaded to the same speed: is there really a big difference in accuracy and velocity dispersion? I know when I accidentally downloaded my 6 CM to 2900 it shot amazingly, not sure if that was the powder or going slow.

In my experience, cartridges like to run at a fill rate just short of 100%. In other words, the loads are more consistent.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Another fun experiment someone ought to do one day: 6 CM, 6 BR, and one or two from the middle (Dasher, 6x47) all loaded to the same speed: is there really a big difference in accuracy and velocity dispersion? I know when I accidentally downloaded my 6 CM to 2900 it shot amazingly, not sure if that was the powder or going slow.

I can’t prove it at all. But like @The_Count said, I think capacity makes a difference.

My 6x47 chrono numbers didn’t look good when going 2800. But I didn’t change powder or primers. So that’s also likely a factor.

I personally think cases have a range where they are most efficient and IMO, staying inside of that is best. For example (numbers are generally speaking)

6br 2700- 2850
Dasher/bra/brx 2750 -2950
6x47 2850-3050
6cm: 2950-3150

In my experience, running too hot or too slow for a particular cartridge doesn’t work as well. If you want to run slower or hotter, then move to the appropriate cartridge.

 

[D_TROS]

Would you guys run these in a BR?

I have been running these in my BR since they came out. Love them.

As to prefering them over the berge 105's, a good friend said to shoot them both and pick whichever shoots better in that particular barrel. So far on my 4th 6br barrel since they came out and the 109's keep shooting better than the 105's in ea barrel.

For the record I use the exact same load and jump as the 105's and pick which shot better. Ive been using the same 105 load for along time and was glad the 109's shot as well. I was under pressure so didnt worry about pressure going up to heavier bullet.

krieger 24" and 26" barrels - vel for 26" barrel below. the 24 is about 60 fps slower

30gr VV N150
20 thou jump

109's - 2840
105's - 2900


Fantastic bullet.

GL!
DT

 

[Caihlen]

Wow. Great numbers. I’m on it.

 

[sleeplz]

I've gotten all my placements running 109s. I remember a bunch of guys talking about bad batches of 109s and I laughed because people always point to the gear before they blame themselves.

Top-ish gunsmiths and shooters saying this.

 

[47guy]

109s loaded on a dillon 750 using the dillon powder throw


11 rounds at 100yds 35FPS ES

5 in the head 3/4 IPSC at 714yds

ive shot at least 1500 109s never an explainable issue.

 

[Clint E.]

109s loaded on a dillon 750 using the dillon powder throw

What powder are you running through the Dillon?

 

[47guy]

What powder are you running through the Dillon?

varget

 

[BrienM]

What twist are you all running with 109 bergers between 6BR-6Dasher?

 

[47guy]

What twist are you all running with 109 bergers between 6BR-6Dasher?

i run a 7.5

 

[Dthomas3523]

So, I’ve been buying 109’s from people who weren’t happy with them.

Here is a lot I just received from an unsatisfied shooter. This is out of my dasher with no load development. I used 30.0 varget and seated about .020 off lands. Bipod and squeeze bag with sun directly in my eyes.

I did also have a .8moa group at 1k that I’m fairly sure was my fault.

It grouped in the .3-.4 moa (average) area from 100-1k. Made 3/3 impacts on 2moa @ 1100 yds, but I didn’t drive down to see what it looked like.

(this is NOT to put down anyone who didn’t have any luck with 109’s. Just my experience with them, even the lots some didn’t like)

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just went back through all the 800/1k shots yesterday. 4-5 groups at each distance.

None were more than .4moa vertical. Anything larger was horizontal/wind.

 

[47guy]

Just went back through all the 800/1k shots yesterday. 4-5 groups at each distance.

None were more than .4moa vertical. Anything larger was horizontal/wind.

so what your saying is these "supposed" bad lots are not bad after all? interesting!
as i said earlier ive shot a bunch of 109s and am currently shooting a lot# that someone said they had issues with....and personally i have NEVER had an explainable flyer.

 

[bodhisafa]

Was the 6 x 47 able to run consistent numbers?

I hear it’s finicky to load for.

what powders allow for a almost 100% fill?

 

[lte82]

Was the 6 x 47 able to run consistent numbers?

I here it’s finicky to load for.

what powders allow for a almost 100% fill?

They aren’t finicky. RL16 is damn near purpose built for the 6x47 in terms of burn rate and case fill. Varget and H4350 gets the job done too.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Was the 6 x 47 able to run consistent numbers?

I hear it’s finicky to load for.

what powders allow for a almost 100% fill?

Most any of the “finnicky” complaints stem from weird reamers. There’s a lot of bastard 6x47 reamers. If you get the Erik Cortina (I think @lte82 also has a good print), you won’t have any issues.

I run 2950 with 35.0 varget. Sub 30 ES and Sub 10 SD without doing anything fancy or hard.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Was the 6 x 47 able to run consistent numbers?

I hear it’s finicky to load for.

what powders allow for a almost 100% fill?

Here’s a 10 shot string. This was pretty typical

 

[bodhisafa]

Most any of the “finnicky” complaints stem from weird reamers. There’s a lot of bastard 6x47 reamers. If you get the Erik Cortina (I think @lte82 also has a good print), you won’t have any issues.

I run 2950 with 35.0 varget. Sub 30 ES and Sub 10 SD without doing anything fancy or hard.

thanks for the response.

Any known gunsmith that own any of those two reamers?

 

[Dthomas3523]

thanks for the response.

Any known gunsmith that own any of those two reamers?

I believe Redbeard Gunworks has the Cortina.

@lte82 may know of some more.

 

[lte82]

I believe Redbeard Gunworks has the Cortina.

@lte82 may know of some more.

Deep South Tactical has a couple different ones. Use the .275 neck reamer if shooting Peterson brass. Ive has great luck with the .273 neck & lapua brass as well. @Deep South Tactical

 

[Tokay444]

Deep South Tactical has a couple different ones. Use the .275 neck reamer if shooting Peterson brass. Ive has great luck with the .273 neck & lapua brass as well. @Deep South Tactical

On that topic, are you turning your Lapua necks?

 

[lte82]

On that topic, are you turning your Lapua necks?

No I am not. I did skim turn some for a tighter neck chamber a couple of years ago but I didn’t really see any improvement on paper or down range that justified the time.

 

[jaybic]

I had finicky issues with several 6x47 necks but got a 275 reamer and can not wait to find out if my issues have disappeared. Just seemed like some days they shit amazing other days the load fell apart. Im hoping it was just odd. Eck tension issues with the 273 neck and the 275 will cure it.....

 

[Dthomas3523]

I had finicky issues with several 6x47 necks but got a 275 reamer and can not wait to find out if my issues have disappeared. Just seemed like some days they shit amazing other days the load fell apart. Im hoping it was just odd. Eck tension issues with the 273 neck and the 275 will cure it.....

Describe what you mean by “fell apart.”

What distance, bullets, etc.

What was your loaded neck diameter? A simple way before spending on new things, to have figured out if it was the neck diameter would have been to turn the necks on a few and check.

 

[jaybic]

I had a number if things go sideways. I ran 105 hybrids in 3 different 47s with 273 necks and it seemed like they all shot very well for about 700 rounds or so and then things got weird. zero it one day, .2 high the next. move the zero down .2 and the day after that it was .2 low, or left, or right. gun shooting lights out one day at 1000 yards and then next day cant touch a full size IPSIC at the same distance.

Loaded round diameter was .2715 and neck at .273 didnt leave much room so I was thinking maybe it was a "tight neck" issue causing the zero issues and erratic behavior.

and I could well be wrong....

Shot a BRA all year this year and it was far more consistent but also had much more neck clearance so....I dont know...maybe its me some how....

 

[Dthomas3523]

What kind of cleaning routine?

.0015 isn’t a ton of room if anything gets built up.

 

[jaybic]

its possible I may have had a carbon ring in them causing some of that as well. I have since learned to do a better job of being sure to remove it. I use a bore scope to monitor and clean every 300 rounds or so, maximum. That has to help but every smith I talk to recommends 4-6 thou neck clearance.

Do you think its possible that since I shoot Lapua brass necked down from 6.5 to 6mm that the necks get thicker when it is sized down and thats what creates a tight neck? I have heard it said that a bullet should pretty much drop right in a fired case and my BRA will but my 47s will certainly not. Its almost like i could seat them again without sizing at all....

 

[Dthomas3523]

its possible I may have had a carbon ring in them causing some of that as well. I have since learned to do a better job of being sure to remove it. I use a bore scope to monitor and clean every 300 rounds or so, maximum. That has to help but every smith I talk to recommends 4-6 thou neck clearance.

Do you think its possible that since I shoot Lapua brass necked down from 6.5 to 6mm that the necks get thicker when it is sized down and thats what creates a tight neck? I have heard it said that a bullet should pretty much drop right in a fired case and my BRA will but my 47s will certainly not. Its almost like i could seat them again without sizing at all....

It definitely has thicker neck when necking down.

Just my assumption, if it worked until 700 rounds and you didn’t clean very well, it was a carbon issue. And not being able to fit a round in a fired case would also support this.

.275 neck solves a lot of that.

 

[jaybic]

Im really hoping so because if I could get my 6x47s to run as reliably as my BRA, the BRA would stay home and the 47s would get worn out....I am partial to it as long as I can get it to run....consistently....maybe running 109s thru the 47 slower thru a 275 neck will be the answer. I know this: when I came to group size, some of the best groups I have ever shot, whether at 100 or 1000 came from my 47s when they ran right.
thanks for the help!

Jamie

 

[ifgator]

Who modifies the muzzle for the EC tuner?

Edit: I realize a gunsmith but does the tuner come with instructions for a smith to perform this service?

 

[kthomas]

Who modifies the muzzle for the EC tuner?

A gunsmith...

 

[LV Precision]

Confirmed my 100 yard zero today for my 6mm creedmoor, and super happy with the consistency of the Berger 109s. Three separate groups under 0.4MOA, with the best at about 0.1MOA. Pretty exceptional using virgin Hornady brass and 38.5 grains of H4350 @ 2902 fps.