Range Report Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

[robbylc]

Anyone got any 1000 yd range reports on this bullet ??? It is advertised as having better numbers than their 175Tac or VLDs

 

[5RWill]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

I might have to order some... when i saw the G1 of .519 I thought to myself "something isn't right here" I've never seen a 168gr .30 cal bullet with that high of a ballistic coefficient. Then looked at berger's site. Hell it's higher than my Berger 175gr BT LR and can be run at better speeds than what i'm running now.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back at the 1000 line the 168's continued to shine</div></div>

http://southwestrifleshooting.blogspot.com/2011/05/berger-30-caliber-hybrids-right-on.html


Tag this thread this is very interesting.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

tag

I will be tring some as soon as I burn down my stock pile of 308 pills a little. The BC is what caught my eye as well.

 

[robbylc]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Yeah yall im just geting into 308.. bumped up from .223 with 80 bergers beenshootin for years... Anyway started with mr2000 and hornady 178s but still researching .... Read some on here about 175 Tac stuff vs horn.178bthp but dang the numbers on the 168 hybrid beats all 178gr and down... Unless im mistaken...

 

[5RWill]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

They're cheaper than my 175gr BT LRs also. So i'll probably get some from powdervalley this week to try them out. I'll probably try around 43-45gr of varget.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: robbylc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah yall im just geting into 308.. bumped up from .223 with 80 bergers beenshootin for years... Anyway started with mr2000 and hornady 178s but still researching .... Read some on here about 175 Tac stuff vs horn.178bthp but dang the numbers on the 168 hybrid beats all 178gr and down... Unless im mistaken... </div></div>

Your not mistaken BC wise but i'm still wondering the same of how they perform at 1000yds. Usually the steep boattail on the 168gr bullets (or the matchking anyway) causes them to lose stability when approaching subsonic speeds. Doing a little reading about the matchking it apparently has a 12-13 degree boattail where as the bergers have about a 8 degree boattail and don't lose stability. I'm ordering a box this week for sure i'm almost out of 175gr BT LRs anyway.

 

[robbylc]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

OK great... Im going to dope out my 178 hpbt this week runnin about 2770. But now im anxious to here from someone or try out those 168gr Hybrids...

 

[robbylc]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

By the way get back with me if you find out any info like 1000yd elev and velocity numbers and ill do the same.. I will also be glad to share my 178gr W/ mr2000 results..

 

[Emouse]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I might have to order some... when i saw the G1 of .519 I thought to myself "something isn't right here" I've never seen a 168gr .30 cal bullet with that high of a ballistic coefficient. Then looked at berger's site. Hell it's higher than my Berger 175gr BT LR and can be run at better speeds than what i'm running now.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back at the 1000 line the 168's continued to shine</div></div>

http://southwestrifleshooting.blogspot.com/2011/05/berger-30-caliber-hybrids-right-on.html


Tag this thread this is very interesting.


I have 168 14 secant ULD that are a G1 of 0.579. Need a 10 twist to stabilise but are good to 1000yds. The 175ULD same profile is better still.

</div></div>

 

[robbylc]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Thats a nice BC.. Never heard of ULDs. So i suppose there not typically mag length loadable.. Thanks for any info that you can share.. Im only int. in mag length loading not single feed so please tell me a little more about these ULDs and price for 100. Thanks..

 

[5RWill]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: robbylc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK great... Im going to dope out my 178 hpbt this week runnin about 2770. But now im anxious to here from someone or try out those 168gr Hybrids...</div></div>

What barrel length are you running? If i could achieve 2700 at least with my 175gr BT LRs it would be great.

Another great thing about these Hybrids will be for the Semi auto platform or a shorty .308 like a Gladius.

I've never heard of the ULDs either i'm guessing "Ultra Low Drag"? I'd like to see some if the prices weren't to steep.

 

[robbylc]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Barrel L. is 22". 48.5gr of All. MR2000, Accuracy @ 100.. in new Lothar barrel with Oberm.match chamber,4 in .45" ( 3 in .30" ) and another 4shot group 3 in .18 4th went out to .50. I have read of others on here getting similar velocities with no problem.. I would like to push that 168 at around 2800 with that powder and the pressure should be pretty low..I feel that my barrel is kinda braking in and i only resize new brass along with deburring the mouths and thats all. Winchester brass..

 

[5RWill]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Might have to try some Alliant MR2000. I remember SBS getting some excellent results with it. Hows your SD and ES? Also how susceptible is the powder to change in temperature?

I'm running a factory 5R right now. Only getting 2618fps over 44gr of varget

 

[robbylc]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

I have only tried these loads twice with mixed results .. 1st time 48.0 consistent 7rds #1-2725, #2,2757, #3,2748, #4,2743, #5,2751 ..... 45.5gr, 2784 to 2805 fps. The 2nd time 48.5gr the velocity ranged from 2751 to 2765 so i dont really know if temp or bullet seating is changing the velocity of 48.5 gr charges. Measuring web dia compared to fed gmm 175 were identical so pressure is no conscern at this time.

 

[robbylc]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

OOOOOOPPPPSSS i meant 48.5gr not 45.5gr there are no 45.5 charges.....

 

[Emouse]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: robbylc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats a nice BC.. Never heard of ULDs. So i suppose there not typically mag length loadable.. Thanks for any info that you can share.. Im only int. in mag length loading not single feed so please tell me a little more about these ULDs and price for 100. Thanks.. </div></div>

Yes they will load mag length in an AIAW. You need to have a faster than normal twist for the bullets and 10 twist seems to be ideal.

Look back at my previous postings or PM me and I will send more info.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

http://www.gunreports.com/news/news/Understanding-Berger-Hybrid-Bullets_2883-1.html

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ballistician Bryan Litz recognized both the advantages and disadvantages of the VLD design. He went to work to see if he could keep the good results the VLD produced while reducing its sensitivity to seating depth. His efforts have produced the latest advancement in bullet design — the Berger Hybrid. </div></div>

I wonder if there will be a 175gr Hybrid? Both the 168gr and the 185gr show considerable increase in BC over their "standard" VLD counterparts. And if this is true about seating depth and he really has achieved this these things are going to be hard to keep instock..

Hopefully Bryan will see this thread and chime in. The 175gr BT LR already has a .515BC so i'm wondering what a hybrid of the 175gr bullet would put out? Looking at the trends of the other bullets and just a wild guess.. maybe .530G1? These bullets paired with MR2000 are certainly giving the .308 some extended life IMO.

 

[BryanLitz]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

This line of hybrids was designed in pairs having the same nose and tail:
155/168 requires 1:12" twist or faster
185/200 requires 1:11" twist or faster
215/230 requires 1:10" twist or faster

These designs were not intended for mag length operation, meaning 2.8" COAL for the .308 Win. If you have a long mag or seat the bullets way down they may feed, but the noses are quite long which is the reason for the higher BC. That and the 7 degree boat tail.

We are not planning a 175 grain Hybrid at this time.

Transonic stability will probably be poor for these longer than average designs especially at low DA, however the high BC's will maximize supersonic range. The hybrid design is a way to have your secant/tangent ogive cake and eat it too, but the transonic cake doesn't slice that way. You either choose short 'n stubby for transonic capability, or long 'n low drag for maximizing supersonic range but it will compromise transonic performance somewhat.

One last note, the 168 Sierra and the 168 Nosler CC which is a direct copy are the only bullets I'm aware of with the notorious dynamic instability problem. All other 168's I'm aware of from other makers are fine.

-Bryan

 

[ranger1183]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Transonic stability will probably be poor for these longer than average designs especially at low DA, however the high BC's will maximize supersonic range. The hybrid design is a way to have your secant/tangent ogive cake and eat it too, but the transonic cake doesn't slice that way. <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">You either choose short 'n stubby for transonic capability, or long 'n low drag for maximizing supersonic range but it will compromise transonic performance somewhat.</span></span></span> (emphasis added by ranger1183)</div></div>
This is the lesson that a lot of people seem to miss. Whether you select a 210 grain VLD, a 220 grain SMK or a 230 grain Hybrid, you gain some benefits but end up giving up some benefits as well.

 

[robbylc]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Thanks Bryan for clearing that up. I was under the impression that the hybrids were mag length tolerant but i think i was confusing them with the fullbore or something. Anyway its a good thing that someone like you gets on this site and helps out. By the way i have been shooting Berger 80 VLDs out of my LesBaer at some snipercomps and really hung in there. I used a VLD Mag sold through DPMS that i dont have to single feed.. Thanks.. Oh yeah at 2800 fps.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

So essentially seating these around mag length is defeating their purpose

 

[BryanLitz]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Allow me to clarify.

The hybrid ogive is intended to have low drag (like a VLD), but without the extreme sensitivity to seating depth that a VLD has. In other words the bullet is tolerant to jump, but there are limits.
Given the excessively long nose on these particular hybrid designs, seating them mag length would result in drastic jumps (over 0.100") in most chambers. Ideally you would like to jump them in the 0.015" to 0.060" range in most cases.
Now it is possible that you could load them mag length in a short throated chamber so they're not jumping a country mile, or even if they are jumping a country mile they may work when loaded to mag length. However the design was not optimized for that purpose. They were optimized for single feeding in target rifles with no length constraint.

-Bryan

 

[frankythefly]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

I am running the 155 hybrids with a .015 jump, Sako Mag Length, Need to try the 168 hybrids. So far the 155 is my favorite, running at a modest 2750 FPS out of a 20inch TRG. It really depends on your system, mag length, and chamber.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Allow me to clarify.

The hybrid ogive is intended to have low drag (like a VLD), but without the extreme sensitivity to seating depth that a VLD has. In other words the bullet is tolerant to jump, but there are limits.
Given the excessively long nose on these particular hybrid designs, seating them mag length would result in drastic jumps (over 0.100") in most chambers. Ideally you would like to jump them in the 0.015" to 0.060" range in most cases.
Now it is possible that you could load them mag length in a short throated chamber so they're not jumping a country mile, or even if they are jumping a country mile they may work when loaded to mag length. However the design was not optimized for that purpose. They were optimized for single feeding in target rifles with no length constraint.

-Bryan</div></div>

Ah i see thanks for clearing that up Bryan that indeed rules out factory remingtons haha.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Bryan, what would be a good OAL for a normal 308 chamber?
Would 2.86" to 2.88" work OK?

 

[BryanLitz]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiroFijo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bryan, what would be a good OAL for a normal 308 chamber?
Would 2.86" to 2.88" work OK? </div></div>

You'll probably end up around there, maybe a wee-bit longer.

 

[PeterN]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Bryan....Thanks. Saved me a lot of experimentation which probably would not have worked because I would try to keep them mag length

 

[5RWill]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Well I couldn't resist so I ordered a box to try out. Not going to any comp that requires me to have to use mag length yet so I guess ill seat them long and single feed. I guess I could also try them around 2.825 or as long as I can go mag wise and see the results I get. Gonna try both though.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Update</span>

Got them in time to load. They sure are beautiful hehe.

From left to right: 168gr VLD, 168gr Hybrid, 175gr BT LR.

 

[cshank]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Any more news on this? Field reports? I wish I had seen this post as I went through 50 rounds yesterday with a starting COAL of 2.810 across a good range of loads/velocities.
My initial testing and groups at 100 yards were um... not what I hoped across the loads I tested.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this, but it seemed that it was indicated this projectile is jump sensitive and needs to be seated longer and past mag length?

FYI, I'm looking at Varget and 8208XBR. So far only tried Varget.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

I haven't tried them yet but i have 5 groups loaded from 43-45gr of varget.

Going to try and shoot them this weekend. They're seated at 2.810.

 

[frankythefly]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FUDwacked</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any more news on this? Field reports? I wish I had seen this post as I went through 50 rounds yesterday with a starting COAL of 2.810 across a good range of loads/velocities.
My initial testing and groups at 100 yards were um... not what I hoped across the loads I tested.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this, but it seemed that it was indicated this projectile is jump sensitive and needs to be seated longer and past mag length?

FYI, I'm looking at Varget and 8208XBR. So far only tried Varget.

</div></div>
That is way to short on the COAL, you need to measure from the ogive also. I just purchased 1000 168 hybrids and haven't got to load development for them. However I have used the 155 hybrids and my ogive length is 2.230, the COAL is something like 2.90ish.(I loaded them to the max length allowed in a TRG Mag.)

What is your distance to the lands?
My load data for the TRG-22 (20inch, 1:11 twist)
I also only resize 1/3 of the neck, redding bushing neck sizer.
CCI-BR-2 Primers
Lapua Brass (12th Fired)
155 hybrid seated 2.230 ogive
46.5 grns Varget
SD 7
Avg 2746 FPS
groups .33 MOA avg, Worst .54 MOA, Best .14 MOA

 

[cshank]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Franky,
Thanks for your post. I too am using a Sako TRG-22 with 26" barrel. I'm heading back to the drawing board to work up to where your at with COAL as well as new loads and will give it another go at the range this week. I only got as far as 42.6gr of varget with a velocity of 2658 avg over 5 shots. zero signs of pressure on the brass. Lapua Brass 2nd firing, CCI BR2.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FUDwacked</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Franky,
Thanks for your post. I too am using a Sako TRG-22 with 26" barrel. I'm heading back to the drawing board to work up to where your at with COAL as well as new loads and will give it another go at the range this week. I only got as far as 42.6gr of varget with a velocity of 2658 avg over 5 shots. zero signs of pressure on the brass. Lapua Brass 2nd firing, CCI BR2.</div></div>

So fud you didn't get good results with a large jump? I'm trying mine at 2.810 and if they don't work out, which i don't expect them to. Going be single feeding to reduce the jump to the lands.

 

[frankythefly]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

I measured the COAL..again this should not be the way you measure as you should be measuring from the ogive. Anyhow my COAL is approx 2.930

If you have a TRG you should have no problem loading them at this length. Start with a 43 grains varget and work your way up.

The 168 hybrid looks very much the same as the 155 hybrid so I am guessing that they will load as far too.

here is a pict that compares the 155SMK and the 155 Hybrid(Right side)

If you notice each little square is 1/4 inch.

 

[Oneteam]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

So they have to be loaded closer to the lands? Most 308 mag wells are 3.82 ish max length, unless you load them one at a time.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

Bryan noted above that they were designed for single feeding, as well as to keep the advantage of the VLD's high BC but reduce sensitivity to seating depth so it can tolerate a jump. Just not a huge one like you would find in a factory remington so to speak. Thats how i understood it anyway.

 

[frankythefly]

Re: Berger 168gr hybrid w/ g-1 bc of .519

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneteam</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So they have to be loaded closer to the lands? Most 308 mag wells are 3.82 ish max length, unless you load them one at a time. </div></div>

The AICS mags don't allow for as long COAL as the TRG ones. I think I can get 2.960 in the TRG mags maybe longer. I have two different AICS mags one with the front spacer and one without. I am pretty sure these would work fine with the ones with out the spacer. I have used VLDs in the past and they can be a real pain to find the perfect load, these hybrid just make it easier to find that sweet spot I think. It only took me 30 rds to find a good load for the TRG.