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Best Anti-Cant Device

Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

I talked to Don and he wrote "We just barely started carrying them. Great gear. I like the fact that you can attach a slope indicator to it and swap the slope indicator from one gun to another easily.
There are adjusting screws that allow you to get the level perfectly set in both the opened and closed position."

I hope this helps.

Stefan
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wheres-Waldo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Pictures....
Its mounted on a Badger Gen.II ACI Mount, sorry, I dont have a picture on hand from behind the rifle.

P3180045.jpg

P3180044.jpg
</div></div>

I like the boot blousers holding the cover on!
I liked the concept of the Horus although I had issues with ACI part spinning freely, it would get hung up from time to time.
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

Anyone tried the one from Roedale? I don't think that it's been on their webshop for long. I'm thinking of getting one to go with my ERA-TAC block mount.

462_0.JPG
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

cant find the roedale. point us in the right direction? and the thirdeye mount would be awesome if it were larue... maybe shotshow they will include levels in the mount. one can hope

thanks
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

I have that NF Set up, and it works very well...

I used it in the videos,

If you look here:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/i3YA2nQMTq4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

this is what is on my Gladius.

I also use the Holland and think they are very good.
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have that NF Set up, and it works very well...

I also use the Holland and think they are very good. </div></div>

Frank - can you give your opinion on the Accuracy 1st level? Obviously we've all read their description that it's more accurate than a bubble level.
1. Are the more accurate?
2. Does the accuracy of cant make that much of a difference? (I know cant makes a difference but do it make enough between the accuracy of the levels)?

I know that Todd frustrates you (see the Magpul video links) but I trust you'll give an honest opinion.

thanks
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

It looks like a good level, I don't think you could say anything negative about it.

I am personally not a big level fan and think they are used incorrectly most of the time, I think the hype behind the need for a level is overstated. It's being taken out of context and that most don't understand what started it.

But it looks like a solid piece of kit, I think people can be comfortable buying one.
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

I've set up on a hill and been pretty sure my rifle was level, but my bubble said not. The bubble was right. Accuracy is about removing as many variables as possible but I don't think you have to go to ridiculous lengths. Point blank range cant is not your priority problem; you are better concentrating on the important things. For long range shots seeing that your rifle doesn't have a massive cant can only give you more confidence going into the shot. Jut like cosign indicators they are but an aid. Its the rest and especially reading wind that will really get you right in the middle; just remove errors that you can. Breathing, trigger control, and sight picture is where the work is done.

At point blank ranges, say 300m, too much information can just get in the way of getting the job done.
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

Lowlight,

I feel the same way. I can see how you would want to know your elevation is going straight up. But, in all my years shooting, I've never had a problem with keeping the top of my rifle pointing up and the bottom of my rifle pointing down. If I used a level to ensure my scope reticle is perfectly leveled and I keep the reticle from angling one way or the other .... well, I just don't see the need for a level. A cosine indicater is perfectly understandable. Can you elaborate further on your comment you just posted. I'd kind of like to hear your theory behind them. I tried to ask on one other thread (about the reason behind "needing" one) but my answer was to make sure your elevation goes up. Anyway, I thought that was a little lacking. Your thoughts??
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

Here is the problem(s)

1. People automatically assume using a level they need to first level the rifle. This is incorrect, in absence of everything else, the most comfortable and natural position behind the rifle is right. Example, the first line of the new quick start guide from David Tubb:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Level your DTR scope to your natural position</div></div>

Level to your natural position, if you level everything to square / Level, under time or any other reason that takes you even slightly off your game you're gonna cant the rifle. In other words, if your mind wanders your gonna cant it naturally.

At the last SH Cup, 8 out of 10 people had levels, when given 30 seconds to drop down and shoot, only 1 out of 8 of those was even close to level via the bubble. Because they dropped down to the prone position and canted the rifle as they naturally would, they didn't think they just went to their natural state.

What started the level craze was the fact the Tubb gun had a level on it, because the rifle was canted and you wanted to lay in the same way every time. The rifle was not designed to be used straight up and down, that is not the natural place behind it. You set it up for comfort, so the level helped you maintain that position as it went against anything previous.

I have shot to a lot further than 300m, try 2000m without a level and never had an issue. People try to demonstrate the effects by grossly canting the rifle and saying, "see" look how far off. But they never acknowledge what happens micro seconds after you look up, when you are now looking through the scope or sights and your body subconsciously moves.

When a majority of people have problems with trigger control, canting is the least of their worry and is really only an issue when they address the rifle inconsistently each time. Which a level can be a tool to help you, but if you ignore your natural inclination you're always gonna fight the urge to move the rifle. That was one of my issues with the video mentioned. The shooter has terrible trigger control, clearly visible and when he missed the 800 yard target the first thing said was, "oh must have canted the rifle" no, your trigger control was bad. There are pages and pages of posts with the SH Dot Drill on here. The majority of misses are to the right, and the shots are pulled. if you miss left on a consistent basis as a right handed shooter I would suspect a small amount of canting, but if you miss right, the odds you are canting the rifle outboard is slim to none. You'll cant the rifle inboard. So any blown shots right are probably not a canting issue as most like to say. More right handed shooter miss right, which is why they cite, SD, CE, Canting, etc... everything but trigger control the number one error method.

Leveling the scope is simple, a plumb bob does the trick well, and if you quarter the target no matter what size or shape you can cut a target into 4 equally sized pieces. This is more of a clue than taking your eyes off the target to check level. Then putting your eyes back on target at which point you body will move to relax and cant your rifle. This is what I see happening on more than one occasion.

The idea, you're cutting a variable is pure BS... the human body is not square, the shoulder pocket is not square and asking you to hold it square is not gonna happen every time, but you can learn to hold it in a natural, relaxed way. Holding the rifle naturally and squaring the travel of elevation / reticle to the fall of gravity is much more effective than square on square with a human body.

I have nothing against people using them, good on ya, but square on square is wrong... you'll fight that feeling every time and as soon as your aren't looking the body and mind will move you back.
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

When I did Small Bore 25m shooting I shot with a cant; some people had a level set to their cant to ensure they set up correctly each time they started a card. I never felt I needed one.

I have my double rifle zeroed to my snap shooting, whatever comes up naturally. I don't care what it does from a bench other than where the two shots might meet. Its fit is similar to a shotgun S/S or O/U. Its also zeroed for me, no one else.

However, on my long rifles for shooting off bipod and rear bag then I like level and level. On the range its not a big issue nor when shooting upright targets. The rifles are heavy enough and I don't really have a natural position with them as its more getting myself behind the rifle than the rifle getting around me. With a rifle that I shoot with a sling then its different, but with these large long wands, then, they are ergonomically as good as a dumper truck. Fortunately they are forgiving as the round has left before you can mess it all up. If they are zeroes for more than one shooter (yep it happens) then level on level is the way to go. Over open terrain then the way the land falls and the light can play tricks on you as stated in my last post. However, having said all that I still think a level is but just an aid, nothing more. If you have time to use it then all well and good.
Lowlight, you are absolutely right about trigger control and follow through being of a much higher critical order. Anticipating the shot and pushing the shoulder forward is another big one.

One error I see all too often is poor bipod placement on rough ground. So many people rush to get behind their rifle, or machine gun, and never give the time to set their rifle down properly. If you don't set up properly first, and get behind your rifle well, then a whole string of shots and especially the first can really get thrown. A good marksman gets set properly straight off by giving that extra time to setting up. Get it wrong becomes obvious as you won't be bedded down until the third or fourth shot.. a bit late. It can be done quickly, so I don't mean faffing about, but just do think of where, and what on, that you are placing the bipod down on and how you are going to get behind it.
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

Just a note, the natural position I am talking about is probably less tha 3 degrees, if you have to put a number on it, as I also suspect the average shooter induced cant that goes unnoticed is probably also 3 degrees or less which is why I think the order of importance is far below the level of hype.
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But they never acknowledge what happens micro seconds after you look up, when you are now looking through the scope or sights and your body subconsciously moves.
</div></div>

What about internal levels like US Optics? I ask because I had one put in my ST-10 so as to try and get my muscle memory to naturally stay level when getting into position, but in the long run I'm wondering if it really matters unless I'm doing hold offs and not dialing in.

Add: I also went internal because with the GAP-10 single piece mount there's no where else to put one that I could see comfortably and without disturbing my position...
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
pr_4_asli.jpg
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Have used one on my DPMS .260 for couple years now and like it a lot
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

Now, if I'm paying the money for an angle cosine indicator and it comes with a level ... then so be it. That's fine. But, over a hundred dollars for a simple bubble level .... forget about it. Way overpriced and not that useful. The horizontal reticle works just fine. If you are looking through your scope at your natural point of aim (after the gun is set up for you) or you are on a bipod and your horizontal reticle is angled .... then you probably aren't level. In my opinion it's been way overstressed more for a marketing play for the people that sell the levels than for the people that use them.
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, if I'm paying the money for an angle cosine indicator and it comes with a level ... then so be it. That's fine. But, over a hundred dollars for a simple bubble level .... forget about it. Way overpriced and not that useful. The horizontal reticle works just fine. If you are looking through your scope at your natural point of aim (after the gun is set up for you) or you are on a bipod and your horizontal reticle is angled .... then you probably aren't level. In my opinion it's been way overstressed more for a marketing play for the people that sell the levels than for the people that use them. </div></div>


This is true if your target is level but if its not even then, that mind set may not work. Also depends on the distance you are shooting. The longer the distance the more the cant has an effect. If you shoot from a bench all the time, its probably a lot easier to stay level, but when shooting from awkward positions, its a lot easier to be very unlevel effecting your shots. But I do agree, that much for the flatline ops is too much when you can get a functional bubble level for 30 bucks.
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

It's true no matter what...

I shoot up here in the mountains on uneven ground, I set my targets out across the valley on whatever ground is available, how you look at the reticle is all that matters, not the level.

This is an absolute fallacy !

You can quarter a target no matter what it looks like, a person or animal on the ground is still on the ground, all that matters is the fall of gravity how it appears is why we learn to properly shoot. If you can't visualize it, I suggest a new hobby.

Look at the terrain here:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JSA8OPDOYrI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This one has the target which is just standing up, I had a level but never used it, because it wasn't necessary. 800 yards with an 18" rifle.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/i3YA2nQMTq4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The bullet will drop with gravity... if you can't visually the rifle being up in the air regardless of the terrain, well can't help you.
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

I forgot to say that I like the Nightforce set up with the Zeiss Victory scope so much that I have already bought another complete set for my next rifle. It gives me all the information I will ever need. I don't have to use it every time but its nice to know its there. (I shot for 30 years without one but now I quite like one fitted to my long range kit).
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz128/Muskett_2009/IMG_4328.jpg
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz128/Muskett_2009/IMG_4329.jpg
 
Re: Best Anti-Cant Device

the scope on my 40x is canted about 5 or so degrees (guessing, i have not measured) to counter clock ways for shooting offhand silhouette. its very natural for me. LL has a very good point. if i were to have the scope level to the gun and i leveled the rifle prior to the shot, i would have put it back to the comfortable position.