"Best" "AR-10" for precision?

[CerebralDistortion]

Totally newb at semi auto rifles and I'm sorry if this has been asked before.

Due to legislative changes (not US resident) it seems semi auto rifles might be available on a hunters licence and that has started me entertaining a thought of getting one.

It requires though that the barrell is at least 18" and it can not be a "build" due to parts availability. Ideally it would have the same precision as my TRG, if that is even possible.

Budget wise I would say $3000 which is about what a Daniel Defece at spec would cost me where I'm at.

Will mainly be used from a blind, but wheight is a factor. As light as possible I suppose.

But is DD the only option? Aero Precision? Or is a Ruger SFAR enough? Any other OOTB rifle good enough?

Any comment appreciated.

 

[BCP]

Daniel Defence would be a fine choice for your hunting rifle.

I'm guessing Sweden or Norway? What about Haenal? They look legit to me and are made in Germany.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I really enjoyed trigger time on the Rock River AR-10. Accurate and well built . Then I shot the Daniel Defense DD5 V4 and fell in love . What a great rifle .

 

[macandrac]

I didn't want to spend that kind of money, as a fairly new AR-10 owner, so I opted for PSA Gen 3 PA65 6.5 Creedmoor with 20" Stainless Steel barrel. I purchased the rifle for just over $1K with taxes and spent another $500 on optics. I can tell you that this rifle, although inexpensive, is still quite accurate and would be a fine hunting rifle other than the fact that it is on the heavy side. However, Daniel Defense DD5 V4 is 8.6 lbs empty so over 9 lbs without optics then around 12 lbs or more with Optics. My PSA Gen 3 PA65 20" 6.5 Creedmoor is around 14 1/2 lbs with optics and fully loaded. I would never go for 18" barrel on an AR-10 platform - it's fine for Home Defense but not going to give you the Velocity you'll want for the Range or Hunting. I would take my PSA hands-down over Daniel Defense DD5 V4 18" barrel simply for this reason.

 

[ELCO82]

I didn't want to spend that kind of money, as a fairly new AR-10 owner, so I opted for PSA Gen 3 PA65 6.5 Creedmoor with 20" Stainless Steel barrel. I purchased the rifle for just over $1K with taxes and spent another $500 on optics. I can tell you that this rifle, although inexpensive, is still quite accurate and would be a fine hunting rifle other than the fact that it is on the heavy side. However, Daniel Defense DD5 V4 is 8.6 lbs empty so over 9 lbs without optics then around 12 lbs or more with Optics. My PSA Gen 3 PA65 20" 6.5 Creedmoor is around 14 1/2 lbs with optics and fully loaded. I would never go for 18" barrel on an AR-10 platform - it's fine for Home Defense but not going to give you the Velocity you'll want for the Range or Hunting. I would take my PSA hands-down over Daniel Defense DD5 V4 18" barrel simply for this reason.

You're out of your mind if you'd rather take that over a Daniel Defense

 

[macandrac]

You're out of your mind if you'd rather take that over a Daniel Defense

Let's face it, AR-10's aren't the best choice as a hunting rifle and certainly 18" AR-10's are even lower on the totem-pole. Yes, I would take my PSA 20" over Daniel Defense 18" any day of the week but that is just me - I'm old school and not spending 3x on a AR-10 platform. Having said that, I'm also not shooting at 1/2 MOAs yet so perhaps in-time.

 

[sboone]

I didn't want to spend that kind of money, as a fairly new AR-10 owner, so I opted for PSA Gen 3 PA65 6.5 Creedmoor with 20" Stainless Steel barrel. I purchased the rifle for just over $1K with taxes and spent another $500 on optics. I can tell you that this rifle, although inexpensive, is still quite accurate and would be a fine hunting rifle other than the fact that it is on the heavy side. However, Daniel Defense DD5 V4 is 8.6 lbs empty so over 9 lbs without optics then around 12 lbs or more with Optics. My PSA Gen 3 PA65 20" 6.5 Creedmoor is around 14 1/2 lbs with optics and fully loaded. I would never go for 18" barrel on an AR-10 platform - it's fine for Home Defense but not going to give you the Velocity you'll want for the Range or Hunting. I would take my PSA hands-down over Daniel Defense DD5 V4 18" barrel simply for this reason.

Your logic is based off a difference of 40fps muzzle velocity and completely negates initial product quality


Back on topic, OP, is a DD the first quality choice that comes to mind? Since you're not stateside, some of us don't have a particularly great idea as to what's available to you and at what price. DD wouldn't be a bad option at all and when put up against a SFAR or a PSA, is the clear choice if it's in the budget.

 

[NHPiper]

Seekins SP10 in 6.5CM. very accurate out of the box with great customer service.

 

[macandrac]

If you don't mind paying 3x for a Defensive rifle that you intend to use for Hunting and you don't mind the drop in Velocity due to the short barrel length, then by all means, go with Daniel Defense.

 

[CerebralDistortion]

Daniel Defence would be a fine choice for your hunting rifle.

I'm guessing Sweden or Norway? What about Haenal? They look legit to me and are made in Germany.

Haenel CR308 does look like a viable option. Will look into it. Thank you.

Then I shot the Daniel Defense DD5 V4 and fell in love . What a great rifle .

Noted. Thank you.

Let's face it, AR-10's aren't the best choice as a hunting rifle and certainly 18" AR-10's are even lower on the totem-pole. Yes, I would take my PSA 20" over Daniel Defense 18" any day of the week but that is just me - I'm old school and not spending 3x on a AR-10 platform. Having said that, I'm also not shooting at 1/2 MOAs yet so perhaps in-time.

I do appreciate your comments, and if need to reach out further than the intended 650 or so yds, I've got bolt guns enough for 1k and further.

And I get it. Not everyone want to spend as much as I do and if that was the case there is several threads about best price ARs.

I do get my groups sub MOA most of the time and it worries me a bit by going cheapest option possible I'll not be satisfied with what whatever grouping I'll get.

Back on topic, OP, is a DD the first quality choice that comes to mind? Since you're not stateside, some of us don't have a particularly great idea as to what's available to you and at what price. DD wouldn't be a bad option at all and when put up against a SFAR or a PSA, is the clear choice if it's in the budget.

DD is available and me not being knowledgable about the alternatives I might miss something obvious. Hence the question.

 

[BCP]

If you don't mind paying 3x for a Defensive rifle that you intend to use for Hunting and you don't mind the drop in Velocity due to the short barrel length, then by all means, go with Daniel Defense.

It’s probably not an option overseas. Also 18” sounds like a hunting code thing for him.

For his purposes the DD is a top choice.

 

[Ape_Factory]

Taking weight into consideration, look at some of the new POF offerings. They have the Revolution available in an 18.5" in 308 and have a few other offerings in 6mm and 6.5 Creed. They're going to be about the lightest there is at your price range. I have two and they've both been 100% reliable. I have a hand load with cheap Hornady 150 grain HPBT's for the Revolution DI that's about half an MOA so they shoot really well. Naked, it's a sub-7 pound gun with billet upper/lower, adjustable gas, fluted barrel, etc.

 

[CerebralDistortion]

It’s probably not an option overseas. Also 18” sounds like a hunting code thing for him.

For his purposes the DD is a top choice.

Correct. Minimum barrel length requirement for a hunting rifle.

Taking weight into consideration, look at some of the new POF offerings. They have the Revolution available in an 18.5" in 308 and have a few other offerings in 6mm and 6.5 Creed. They're going to be about the lightest there is at your price range. I have two and they've both been 100% reliable. I have a hand load with cheap Hornady 150 grain HPBT's for the Revolution DI that's about half an MOA so they shoot really well. Naked, it's a sub-7 pound gun with billet upper/lower, adjustable gas, fluted barrel, etc.

Interesting, but hard to come by where I'm at.

The wheight isn't a big factor, I'm just not interested in a PRS style 25 lbs rig for a hunting rifle.

Thank you all. A DD seems not to be the wrong choice based on your replies.

 

[DocRDS]

Seekins

DD seems to be riding their name lately (my opinion).

Large Frame ar world is kinda a mess.
I hunt with a DPMS 308 that runs, but it seems Seekins has spent the time getting it right.

 

[Scwalker83]

I didn't want to spend that kind of money, as a fairly new AR-10 owner, so I opted for PSA Gen 3 PA65 6.5 Creedmoor with 20" Stainless Steel barrel. I purchased the rifle for just over $1K with taxes and spent another $500 on optics. I can tell you that this rifle, although inexpensive, is still quite accurate and would be a fine hunting rifle other than the fact that it is on the heavy side. However, Daniel Defense DD5 V4 is 8.6 lbs empty so over 9 lbs without optics then around 12 lbs or more with Optics. My PSA Gen 3 PA65 20" 6.5 Creedmoor is around 14 1/2 lbs with optics and fully loaded. I would never go for 18" barrel on an AR-10 platform - it's fine for Home Defense but not going to give you the Velocity you'll want for the Range or Hunting. I would take my PSA hands-down over Daniel Defense DD5 V4 18" barrel simply for this reason.

You should put a 40-50 fps difference into jbm ballistics and see what the difference is in terms of muzzle energy and drop sub 800 meters. If you aren't shooting decent match ammo you could have that much difference in velocity in the sd/es of the ammo.

Don't be caught up in stupid stuff like minuscule differences in velocity due to a 2 inch barrel difference.

If you're comparing ballistics of a 20" 6.5 vs a 18" 308 there is certainly way more to consider especially if you're likely to take a shot beyond 500 meters.

Picking between a Danny D and a PSA, no question I would go with the Danny D.

 

[Zoomie]

Not sure if it's the "best" but since you're OCONUS see if Hera's 7SIX2 AR10 is available in your AO. I can't vouch for it, but know someone who tested it and walked away impressed. They're apparently right around €2,800.

WEAPONS | hera-arms.de

en.hera-arms.de

Decent review here;

Test: HERA Arms 7SIX2 – Was kann der Selbstlader?

Die 7SIX2 von HERA Arms auf dem Schießstand. Was leistet die Büchse auf AR-10-Basis?

www.all4shooters.com

 

[Shoots 700's]

PSA...

 

[candyx]

If its precision your looking for then there is only one that holds that title ......

 

[FALex]

If its precision your looking for then there is only one that holds that title ......View attachment 8182541

Uhhhh...sorry dude. I couldn't disagree more. Don't get me wrong, LWRC makes a great rifle, but as far as it being the "only one" to hold the title to being a precision AR, it wouldn't even make my top 5. To top it off, they really fucked up their Gen 2 REPR's by going with the damn CF barrels. CF barrels are awesome for one thing: hunting. Even then, I would argue the superfluousness of needing/wanting one then.

 

[TheDude219]

Totally newb at semi auto rifles and I'm sorry if this has been asked before.

Due to legislative changes (not US resident) it seems semi auto rifles might be available on a hunters licence and that has started me entertaining a thought of getting one.

It requires though that the barrell is at least 18" and it can not be a "build" due to parts availability. Ideally it would have the same precision as my TRG, if that is even possible.

Budget wise I would say $3000 which is about what a Daniel Defece at spec would cost me where I'm at.

Will mainly be used from a blind, but wheight is a factor. As light as possible I suppose.

But is DD the only option? Aero Precision? Or is a Ruger SFAR enough? Any other OOTB rifle good enough?

Any comment appreciated.

My Mars-h has been solid. No complaints and I don’t think you could get much if any better straight from the factory.

 

[scott5456]

For precision? GAP-10 G2 or JP LRP-07

Not going to be $3k though....

 

[Ernest 5.56]

PSA...

4 Bear Creek AR-10s

 

[TheOE800]

Uhhhh...sorry dude. I couldn't disagree more. Don't get me wrong, LWRC makes a great rifle, but as far as it being the "only one" to hold the title to being a precision AR, it wouldn't even make my top 5. To top it off, they really fucked up their Gen 2 REPR's by going with the damn CF barrels. CF barrels are awesome for one thing: hunting. Even then, I would argue the superfluousness of needing/wanting one then.

That’s if it even runs.

 

[mrtoyz]

May have already said it but Seekins SP10. $2600. Best money you can send on the platform IMO.

 

[NHPiper]

May have already said it but Seekins SP10. $2600. Best money you can send on the platform IMO.

Agreed and Euro optic usually sells them for less if you call

 

[bigjake83]

Uhhhh...sorry dude. I couldn't disagree more. Don't get me wrong, LWRC makes a great rifle, but as far as it being the "only one" to hold the title to being a precision AR, it wouldn't even make my top 5. To top it off, they really fucked up their Gen 2 REPR's by going with the damn CF barrels. CF barrels are awesome for one thing: hunting. Even then, I would argue the superfluousness of needing/wanting one then.

Basically anything I make would be the answer.....just saying

 

[candyx]

Uhhhh...sorry dude. I couldn't disagree more. Don't get me wrong, LWRC makes a great rifle, but as far as it being the "only one" to hold the title to being a precision AR, it wouldn't even make my top 5. To top it off, they really fucked up their Gen 2 REPR's by going with the damn CF barrels. CF barrels are awesome for one thing: hunting. Even then, I would argue the superfluousness of needing/wanting one then.

Dude Jordan,Saudi Arabia,Sweden,United Kingdom and USA PFPA all use LWRC for Special Forces. I grant you its not for bench shooting paper targets , its center mass when shooting from the hip or the Medulla when shouldered. At least thats what the salesmen told me at Walmart........

 

[russkim04]

Bartlein or kreiger barrel my next purchase

 

[VargmatII]

The Seekins SP10 is available in Sweden but it retails for 5k$. So there is that.
A LWRC REPR is around 7k$.

Seems like DD is one of the few that is priced ok?!

 

[russkim04]

Ga performance

 

[45-90]

I probably wouldn't use any of my AR types for hunting big game.
But if you want precision, become knowledgeable enough to build it yourself, with one of the top quality barrels, and whatever additions that allow you to shoot better, including handloading your own ammo for the bullet and velocity that your precision barrel likes...less costly and that easy to have a half moa AR.

 

[xxflyingturtlexx]

Seekins SP10 in 6.5CM. very accurate out of the box with great customer service.

Good luck finding one

 

[Salinas]

Go SP-10. It’s the best bang for the buck. There’s a reason why guys in PRS Gas gun shoot it and why GA Precision build theirs off of it. If you can afford it, then next go JP.
I have an 6.5 SP-10. I hunt and compete with it. I love it.

 

[CerebralDistortion]

I probably wouldn't use any of my AR types for hunting big game.
But if you want precision, become knowledgeable enough to build it yourself, with one of the top quality barrels, and whatever additions that allow you to shoot better, including handloading your own ammo for the bullet and velocity that your precision barrel likes...less costly and that easy to have a half moa AR.

Nothing here a 308 won't kill (or even a 6.5CM)...

I don't mind getting the knowledge, or the proficiency. It's parts availability that is the problem. If it was about an AR-15, it would be a bit easier due to the IPSC/dynamic shooter scene but 10:s are all but non existent.

The DD seems like a one stop parts shop, it's decently priced and it ticks most of the boxes.
And it's available.

***

Thanks again all for your replies!

 

[GUNNER10]

Totally newb at semi auto rifles and I'm sorry if this has been asked before.

Due to legislative changes (not US resident) it seems semi auto rifles might be available on a hunters licence and that has started me entertaining a thought of getting one.

It requires though that the barrell is at least 18" and it can not be a "build" due to parts availability. Ideally it would have the same precision as my TRG, if that is even possible.

Budget wise I would say $3000 which is about what a Daniel Defece at spec would cost me where I'm at.

Will mainly be used from a blind, but wheight is a factor. As light as possible I suppose.

But is DD the only option? Aero Precision? Or is a Ruger SFAR enough? Any other OOTB rifle good enough?

Any comment appreciated.

First off Congrats! It's awesome seeing our friends from overseas starting to get access to the good stuff.

Alot of good options have been made, and while I have not shot any DD's they tend have solid reputations, I would consider one in 6.5cm and remember, gas guns all tend to like a particular cartridge. you can take two of the same rifle and lay them on a table and one rifle will shoot noticeably better with say Federal Gold medal Match, and the other will shoot better with Hornady ELD-M's. If you hand load you should be good to go.

Can you get stuff from HK? There large frames have pretty good reputation for accuracy. Also, I think the LMT has a presence in Europe right now and their 6.5's are lasers.

 

[45-90]

Nothing here a 308 won't kill (or even a 6.5CM)...

I don't mind getting the knowledge, or the proficiency. It's parts availability that is the problem. If it was about an AR-15, it would be a bit easier due to the IPSC/dynamic shooter scene but 10:s are all but non existent.

The DD seems like a one stop parts shop, it's decently priced and it ticks most of the boxes.
And it's available.

***

Thanks again all for your replies!

Wasn't talking about the killing power of the 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor, they will do the job at reasonable ranges...just not a fan of big game hunting with an AR 10 ...just my preference in ice-cold, winter weather..it's heavy and handling cold metal, just makes it colder, when it gets frosty...I take a walnut and blued steel model 7 bolt 350 magnum, with light 20" barrel. I have a bunch of 308s if I was to use one it would be 22" Bartlein, HS precision stock bolt gun, not my ARs ...just my preference, for my style of hunting.
Funny but Ive never killed anything with an AR of any type and I have a bunch...just don't use them for hunting, anything...never thought about that before.

 

[NHPiper]

Good luck finding one

I didnt have any issues, but that was a few months ago. Called EuroOptic and they knocked 10-15% off over the phone.

 

[CerebralDistortion]

First off Congrats! It's awesome seeing our friends from overseas starting to get access to the good stuff.

Alot of good options have been made, and while I have not shot any DD's they tend have solid reputations, I would consider one in 6.5cm and remember, gas guns all tend to like a particular cartridge. you can take two of the same rifle and lay them on a table and one rifle will shoot noticeably better with say Federal Gold medal Match, and the other will shoot better with Hornady ELD-M's. If you hand load you should be good to go.

Can you get stuff from HK? There large frames have pretty good reputation for accuracy. Also, I think the LMT has a presence in Europe right now and their 6.5's are lasers.

Thank you! Gives me an opportunity to scratch an itch and yes I hand load, for both target and hunting.

HK is a bit excessive price wise but I'll take a second look.

Wasn't talking about the killing power of the 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor, they will do the job at reasonable ranges...just not a fan of big game hunting with an AR 10 ...just my preference in ice-cold, winter weather..it's heavy and handling cold metal, just makes it colder, when it gets frosty...I take a walnut and blued steel model 7 bolt 350 magnum, with light 20" barrel. I have a bunch of 308s if I was to use one it would be 22" Bartlein, HS precision stock bolt gun, not my ARs ...just my preference, for my style of hunting.
Funny but Ive never killed anything with an AR of any type and I have a bunch...just don't use them for hunting, anything...never thought about that before.

A slight misunderstanding about the definition of "big game" then. To me "big game" is moose and brown bear. I hardly ever hunt anything bigger than roe or deer.

And I've got bolt guns for hunting already. Blued steel and walnut as well as stainless and composite.

I'm more target shooter than hunter and I never hunt in winter, but the legislative change would allow me to have an AR on a hunting license which has been impossible previously.

 

[justwoody1]

I had a stupid-accurate GA Precision GAP-10 with a Bartlein. It shot everything very well

 

[Near miss]

I would 100% recommend HK G28 or MR308 in 18" config.
Too bad it is by default 16". You could

HK is unbeliveably good.

300m range, I saw few guys shooting rifles and went to check their groups. There were many 0.5moa groups and I said nice groups, bolt rifles are sure nice to shoot (He had some good bolt). The guy replied to me, yeah not my groups.
I came back and I saw they were shot with 308 HK with Lothar barrel. Stock everything except the first barrel burned out after 10kish.

I have shot HK a lot myself too and was never disappointed. Just shot mainly bulk ammo as I did not reload back then. Match ammo really brought it to another level. Shooting bulk feels like waste now but I was happy even with those results and hit my targets well beyond expectations.

 

[FALex]

Dude Jordan,Saudi Arabia,Sweden,United Kingdom and USA PFPA all use LWRC for Special Forces. I grant you its not for bench shooting paper targets , its center mass when shooting from the hip or the Medulla when shouldered. At least thats what the salesmen told me at Walmart........

Damnit! I stand corrected. LWRC's are the most awesome, accurate and infallible rifle systems on the planet. Whoever the USA PFPA are, they must be some real pipe hitters if they're rolling REPR's! Carbon fiber wrapped pipes too!

 

[bigjake83]

Damnit! I stand corrected. LWRC's are the most awesome, accurate and infallible rifle systems on the planet. Whoever the USA PFPA are, they must be some real pipe hitters if they're rolling REPR's! Carbon fiber wrapped pipes too!

 

[Salinas]

I had a GA Precision GAP-10 with a Bartlein that was stupid accurate. It shot everything well.

 

[CerebralDistortion]

I had a GA Precision GAP-10 with a Bartlein that was stupid accurate. It shot everything well.

You have said that twice now, so I get that you feel strongly about it. And from what I've been able to find, to get one I have to increase my budget by at least $1000. I'm kind of not inclined to do that.

 

[Near miss]

You have said that twice now, so I get that you feel strongly about it. And from what I've been able to find, to get one I have to increase my budget by at least $1000. I'm kind of not inclined to do that.

Cheap semis are usually not as semi as the better quality semis. I also personally really much prefer the gun to have excellent accuracy.

The cost is the biggest reason I have not bought my own AR10 yet. It is going to be either HK, LMT or Sako (which is coming out at some point in far-future)
Used HK is about 3.5k, which can be already fitted with good, valuable stuff. My friend bought HK for 2.5K and got like 1K of stuff with it. So a huge bargain.
A new LMT runs for like 5k.
+400 Spuhr
+2K optic
+900 Aimpoint and mount and rail for it
+400 in magazines (maybe 4-6 mags to start with)
+120 for suppressor host (MB or flash hider)
+500 for suppressor (no taxes in my country)
+150ish for magazine pouches

Personally I could just transfer my current optic and dot to the gun but I rather bought another 4.5k worth of ammo.

 

[WI2017]

I’ve got a 16” 308 Aero that I use for hunting. I really like it. Get the “enhanced” version if you get one. The barrel nut/hand guard mount is much more solid than a traditional AR.

If I had to have one AR-10 for precision shooting though it would be a Seekins SP-10. These guns will hang with most bolt guns if they are in the right hands.

 

[msgriff]

You haven't mentioned which country (or continent) you are from, but it seems to me that what is available to you might be an issue due to ITAR. Some of the suggestions here might not be able to be imported to your country without considerable hassle and expense. Since you're looking for a factory OOTB rifle, the manufacturers warranty, service and parts availability would be a consideration. If available, look at the Haenel CR6.5.

 

[B Man]

Handled a DD 6.5 creed hunter model the other day in the shop. I’ll say if I was buying a factory AR10 for hunting it would probably be on the very top of my list. Very nice to handle, weight was nice, & I’ve read some really good reviews on it accuracy wise.
I hunt with my AR’s also, they will not replace my bolt guns for various reasons but I do like to take them out at times.

 

[ARKEMAXUS]

I didn't want to spend that kind of money, as a fairly new AR-10 owner, so I opted for PSA Gen 3 PA65 6.5 Creedmoor with 20" Stainless Steel barrel. I purchased the rifle for just over $1K with taxes and spent another $500 on optics. I can tell you that this rifle, although inexpensive, is still quite accurate and would be a fine hunting rifle other than the fact that it is on the heavy side. However, Daniel Defense DD5 V4 is 8.6 lbs empty so over 9 lbs without optics then around 12 lbs or more with Optics. My PSA Gen 3 PA65 20" 6.5 Creedmoor is around 14 1/2 lbs with optics and fully loaded. I would never go for 18" barrel on an AR-10 platform - it's fine for Home Defense but not going to give you the Velocity you'll want for the Range or Hunting. I would take my PSA hands-down over Daniel Defense DD5 V4 18" barrel simply for this reason.

If you look at the velocity loss on an 18" vs 20" barrel in 308 you're talking about a supersonic range difference of about 10-25 yards depending on chamber and load. Negligible. At my elevation, with 175gr. Sierra GMM ammo the 18" goes subsonic at 1520 yds, the 20" at 1530 yds. Long barrels are over rated. 18" is absolutely fine for hunting and long range depending on your expectations.

Glad your PSA is working for you though, sometimes spending more $$$ just gives diminishing returns. Gucci can be overrated.

 

[ARKEMAXUS]

Taking weight into consideration, look at some of the new POF offerings. They have the Revolution available in an 18.5" in 308 and have a few other offerings in 6mm and 6.5 Creed. They're going to be about the lightest there is at your price range. I have two and they've both been 100% reliable. I have a hand load with cheap Hornady 150 grain HPBT's for the Revolution DI that's about half an MOA so they shoot really well. Naked, it's a sub-7 pound gun with billet upper/lower, adjustable gas, fluted barrel, etc.

Who can you get POF from? I've called several shops and nobody has them or will order them.