Best AR Platform value?

[Guyotrd]

Interested in hearing about the latest generations of AR platforms where value, accuracy, weight, reliability and the company behind the product are criteria. It seems like the KA, H&K and FN carry a considerable premium for being a military platform. I imagine testing, reliability and availability of parts, plus the cache accounts for this?

I have 3 POF's a 6.5 CM , 308, and 6.8 SPC and also a LWRCI REPR II 6.5, my son has an M6a2- all of them shoot sub moa with match ammo, hardly ever or never fail to fire, are clean running and shoot with my Thunderbeast can no problem (except the M6a2) - both companies have great customer service.

I always wanted an H&K but it seems heavy and expensive - although I imagine it is amazing.

I have no religious beliefs about DI vs Piston - I chose Piston because they are easy to clean, easily adjust for suppressors and don't have any gas near your face in an indoor range - they just worked for me. I think the KAC 6.5 with the 22 in barrel is highly desirable and for DI that would be what I would choose.

The only downsides I see with my guns are they are all a bit front end-heavy due to the piston system, I have to use single piece 20 MOA scope mounts (heavy) due to the way the rails are, and they are proprietary and not easy to get barrels for - I love the Proof carbon on the LWRC and wish I could buy those or other cut rifled barrels (or any third party) for the POF's - although when I had a barrel problem on the 6.8 SPC POF had one special ordered for me since they no longer offer them, replaced it for free - no questions asked and even answer their phones and are nice to me. When the 308 had problems with the Thunderbeast since it has more back pressure than most cans they even made a custom mod to the gun - again for free. It now works perfect.

The REPR was VERY expensive but worth it, and the POF's can be had for a bargain IMHO considering the quality.

 

[RUTGERS95]

none of those mentioned are 'value' platforms. At the end of the day, reliability matters most followed by accuracy a distant 2nd. Reliability is pretty much standard now and the AR is inherently accurate; some more than others. One could argue the psa is value as defined; reasonably reliable, accurate, lower cost. I'm not advocating psa but pof, lwrci are not value

 

[houndog]

I also have a Gen 1 POF in .308 that has been very accurate and very reliable. I've put thousands of rounds through it without a hiccup. But it is front heavy.

Don't own an HK 716, but do own the 416 (at least everything but the receiver). It is obviously a very reliable gun, but I view it as more of a collectable. For what you get it is WAY overpriced compared to other alternatives.

If you want a piston gun that will be significantly lighter than your POF, is very accurate and has been reliable for me, take a look at the Sig 716 DMR. However, be warned, this gun is/has been discontinued by Sig and many of its parts are proprietary. The stock/cheek weld also leaves something to be desired, but if you own a POF you are probably used to this. Oh, I know the DMR version of this gun also comes with a built in 20 MOA rail, which is a nice plus.

Personally, I have also been very happy with a LaRue Ultimate Upper that I have in 6.5CM. Not a piston, but the gun is very accurate (it's a LaRue), has been reliable and is currently a fantastic deal. And if you have any interest in adding a suppressor (and are willing to wait a very long time to get it) you can add one for $399, which is the deal of the century.

 

[Downtown]

For a factory rifle, I find Bravo Company to make a properly built rifle for a reasonable amount of money. By properly built, I mean the correct spec parts, tightened and staked how they should be.

 

[Js9088]

I think fn dmr2 at Pre panic prices it hard to beat.

 

[Jigstick]

KAC and LMT. Everything else is complete dogfuck.

 

[sheepdog697]

For "value" i have to lean towards BCM as well.

 

[Neurotic]

Along the lines of the PSA mention, I have a cheap Ruger that's been solid. It has over a 1,000 rounds through it without issue and nominally shoots 3/4 moa at 100 yards. When thinking of value brands, I think PSA, Ruger, S&W and the like. FN, BCM, DD and similar are more premium product a price class up.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Pre apocalypse seekins had a line of ar’s under 1k. I picked up one and it’s a lot of rifle for the money.

 

[drewthebrave]

For "value" I build my own. Start with the best barrel I can fit into my budget (Craddock Precision, WOA, CLE, Criterion, etc). Install it in a thermal fit upper receiver. Use a quality bolt. Add a LaRue MBT-2S trigger.

Then you can go budget or Gucci on just about everything else based on your budget and what you want the rifle to do.

 

[atepointer]

Along the lines of the PSA mention, I have a cheap Ruger that's been solid. It has over a 1,000 rounds through it without issue and nominally shoots 3/4 moa at 100 yards. When thinking of value brands, I think PSA, Ruger, S&W and the like. FN, BCM, DD and similar are more premium product a price class up.

It's really funny I sold a PSA beater to a buddy maybe 5 years ago and it went over 10k rounds last year still runs like a top. I paid under $500 for it and it still rips never a single broken anything and at least half it's life has eaten cheap steel cased. It was one of he FN barreled blem deals. I have a couple of PWS rigs and they are nice, but honestly I don't *need* a fancy piston I just splurged...3x the cost of a PSA beater. I gave one to my dad and in point of fact selling my other one and if I feel the need for another gasser will build one up from scratch for the experience. PSA wouldn't scare me one bit if I were to buy though.

 

[RUTGERS95]

It's really funny I sold a PSA beater to a buddy maybe 5 years ago and it went over 10k rounds last year still runs like a top. I paid under $500 for it and it still rips never a single broken anything and at least half it's life has eaten cheap steel cased. It was one of he FN barreled blem deals. I have a couple of PWS rigs and they are nice, but honestly I don't *need* a fancy piston I just splurged...3x the cost of a PSA beater. I gave one to my dad and in point of fact selling my other one and if I feel the need for another gasser will build one up from scratch for the experience.

per Hendersons' thread, the psa rifles they have held up well under the abuse and usage. I am not telling anyone to buy psa and full disclosure, won't use them or their parts given their history and recognize it's improved a LOT. But, value clearly means very different things to many as reading this thread I'm left wondering how the fk is FN, POF etc considered value options when one can get 3 Andersons, S&W, 3 PSA for the price of a pof etc??????. I have or had them all (almost) and value is not 1k plus platform as the laws of diminishing returns apply.

full disclosure, Colt is baseline in my house and I'm a LMT fan

 

[Steel head]

Value?
BCM and possibly a Windham.

 

[atepointer]

per Hendersons' thread, the psa rifles they have held up well under the abuse and usage. I am not telling anyone to buy psa and full disclosure, won't use them or their parts given their history and recognize it's improved a LOT. But, value clearly means very different things to many as reading this thread I'm left wondering how the fk is FN, POF etc considered value options when one can get 3 Andersons, S&W, 3 PSA for the price of a pof etc??????. I have or had them all (almost) and value is not 1k plus platform as the laws of diminishing returns apply.

full disclosure, Colt is baseline in my house and I'm a LMT fan

That sums it up pretty well. For me it was Colt to PSA to PWS. I could own either and my first AR was an old pre-ban Colt HBAR was nice too, but had it's fair share of issues with a bad bolt, ejector and was horrifically over gassed. I doubt there will ever be a consensus on 'best' or any other subjective term applied to any rifle. I'm inclined to build one next time around for the experience, but don't know that I'll spend much money on gas guns again simply b/c it ain't really my thing these days broke out a time or two in the last year. Right now my 'purchasing mentor' is trying to push me over the ledge on a fancy custom bolt rig dangit!

 

[sheepdog697]

I concur but FN Scar 16, 17 and 20 got to be on the list.

Not for me in cost vs performance...

 

[Winny94]

Interested in hearing about the latest generations of AR platforms where value, accuracy, weight, reliability and the company behind the product are criteria. It seems like the KA, H&K and FN carry a considerable premium for being a military platform. I imagine testing, reliability and availability of parts, plus the cache accounts for this?

I have 3 POF's a 6.5 CM , 308, and 6.8 SPC and also a LWRCI REPR II 6.5, my son has an M6a2- all of them shoot sub moa with match ammo, hardly ever or never fail to fire, are clean running and shoot with my Thunderbeast can no problem (except the M6a2) - both companies have great customer service.

I always wanted an H&K but it seems heavy and expensive - although I imagine it is amazing.

I have no religious beliefs about DI vs Piston - I chose Piston because they are easy to clean, easily adjust for suppressors and don't have any gas near your face in an indoor range - they just worked for me. I think the KAC 6.5 with the 22 in barrel is highly desirable and for DI that would be what I would choose.

The only downsides I see with my guns are they are all a bit front end-heavy due to the piston system, I have to use single piece 20 MOA scope mounts (heavy) due to the way the rails are, and they are proprietary and not easy to get barrels for - I love the Proof carbon on the LWRC and wish I could buy those or other cut rifled barrels (or any third party) for the POF's - although when I had a barrel problem on the 6.8 SPC POF had one special ordered for me since they no longer offer them, replaced it for free - no questions asked and even answer their phones and are nice to me. When the 308 had problems with the Thunderbeast since it has more back pressure than most cans they even made a custom mod to the gun - again for free. It now works perfect.

The REPR was VERY expensive but worth it, and the POF's can be had for a bargain IMHO considering the quality.

Maybe we have different definitions of "value", but in my mind value means going right up until the point of diminishing returns when looking a graph of performance relative to dollars spent.

Aero is the best value in my opinion. Next would be BMC and/or SOLGW.

If price was a secodnary concern but I wasnt paying for name, itd be LMT. HK & KAC are fantastic rifles, but there is still an element of paying for the brand there (plus side is theyll never lose value, relatively speaking)

 

[Winny94]

KAC and LMT. Everything else is complete dogfuck.

This should be fun.
What issues have you had with others (and have you extensively ran ALL other makes) to make this type of statement?

 

[RUTGERS95]

Maybe we have different definitions of "value", but in my mind value means going right up until the point of diminishing returns when looking a graph of performance relative to dollars spent.

Aero is the best value in my opinion. Next would be BMC and/or SOLGW.

If price was a secodnary concern but I wasnt paying for name, itd be LMT. HK & KAC are fantastic rifles, but there is still an element of paying for the brand there (plus side is theyll never lose value, relatively speaking)

totally agree on Aero, can't believe I forgot that. Aero is right up there with many 'premium' brands imho. I'm amazed at the BCM love given the issues they had the past 2.5yrs and for a company that bills itself as 'colt like', not seeing the premium at all.

people should read and understand why Richard Thaler won the Nobel Prize in Economics.

 

[Winny94]

people should read and understand why Richard Thaler won the Nobel Prize in Economics.

Can you imagine his take on the scope market (particularly those of us here)?

 

[RUTGERS95]

Can you imagine his take on the scope market (particularly those of us here)?

hahaha...great comment! I hadn't thought of that!!!!!

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I like to think Barnes Precision Machine makes a no frills AR at a price that makes them a good value.

 

[bpjohn]

For my money, a Larue UU purchased with a stripped lower (with build kit) is the best bang for your buck.

 

[srtsam]

I would not say they are cheap but compared to the designer rifles of today like Noveske and Q, Daniel Defense makes a great gun. I'm getting ready to get one of their 308s because i just can't justify plunking down over 5k for an SR25 which is just a Gas Gun. And yes i have had several SR25's, and yes they feel like quality, smooth shooting, but at the end of the day its just a gasser with a large price tag. I have a couple daniels and have been very happy with both. My only complaint is the trigger they sell with their ar rifles. Has to be the worst trigger. Maybe they know most folks will more than likely, will swap it out for a upgrade.

 

[texag0842]

Best value LMT

 

[wyld3man]

Seekins makes good riles for the $

 

[sheepdog697]

Seekins makes good riles for the $

Totally forgot about seekins. I agree with you here 100%, great rifles and outstanding accuracy.

 

[eelman308]

+ Aero and BCM

 

[JohnDeereGuy1996]

If I can’t have a knights armament then I’m grabbing a Bcm

 

[DavidAR10]

KAC and LMT. Everything else is complete dogfuck.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

KAC when you factor in what you get, its a good value. Gun needs nothing but an optic and a can.

LMT, Colt, BCM, Super Duty G guns. Larue UU kits are hard to beat for the money for more precision oriented guns. No reason to buy anything else honestly. If one of those 6 companies doesn't make it, don't need it.

People saying Aero don't build guns for a living. If they did, they would know of the issues with them. They are range toys at best. I just got a shipment of 20 Aero lowers both Gen 2 and M4E1 for long term preps. I KNOW there will be issues with some of them, but hard to beat them for $50 right now. At that price I will cull them or fix myself.

1,000 or even 5,000 is barely breaking in the gun. Come back and talk when you get over 20K assuming you haven't sheared a few bolt lugs off and replaced numerous small parts due to substandard manufacturing.

 

[GUNNER10]

Interested in hearing about the latest generations of AR platforms where value, accuracy, weight, reliability and the company behind the product are criteria. It seems like the KA, H&K and FN carry a considerable premium for being a military platform. I imagine testing, reliability and availability of parts, plus the cache accounts for this?

I have 3 POF's a 6.5 CM , 308, and 6.8 SPC and also a LWRCI REPR II 6.5, my son has an M6a2- all of them shoot sub moa with match ammo, hardly ever or never fail to fire, are clean running and shoot with my Thunderbeast can no problem (except the M6a2) - both companies have great customer service.

I always wanted an H&K but it seems heavy and expensive - although I imagine it is amazing.

I have no religious beliefs about DI vs Piston - I chose Piston because they are easy to clean, easily adjust for suppressors and don't have any gas near your face in an indoor range - they just worked for me. I think the KAC 6.5 with the 22 in barrel is highly desirable and for DI that would be what I would choose.

The only downsides I see with my guns are they are all a bit front end-heavy due to the piston system, I have to use single piece 20 MOA scope mounts (heavy) due to the way the rails are, and they are proprietary and not easy to get barrels for - I love the Proof carbon on the LWRC and wish I could buy those or other cut rifled barrels (or any third party) for the POF's - although when I had a barrel problem on the 6.8 SPC POF had one special ordered for me since they no longer offer them, replaced it for free - no questions asked and even answer their phones and are nice to me. When the 308 had problems with the Thunderbeast since it has more back pressure than most cans they even made a custom mod to the gun - again for free. It now works perfect.

The REPR was VERY expensive but worth it, and the POF's can be had for a bargain IMHO considering the quality.

In the family of large frames, I have had a few different 308's in the past and now have an ACC, MWS, and Scar 17. I would not considering anything a gamechanger at this point but i do however believe that the KAC has the best blend of accuracy, weight, and reliability but that comes at around a 2 grand premium. I believe that LMT is better value and is just a reliable, and accurate. but is around a half pound heavier. The Scar is reliable, light but not exactly a value.

In terms of small frame AR's, when we are not paying panic pricing, I really think that SR15 is a great value for what you are getting. I also think that the geiselle super duty rifles look pretty good for buy and shoot rifle. With that being said, a mid length BCM would do 99 percent of what those two can do at a fraction of the cost

 

[1moaoff]

I'm ready for flaming!
Stag
Rock river

 

[Sutherlandsd]

I’m not sure how anyone can say knights anything is value oriented with a straight face.

if your using it for your day job then I guess I can see it, but the average desk commando....I think your buying your operator status for the ahhhs at the range and if you got the coin that’s cool but don’t play it off like it’s a value. You could build an aero and shear off bolts weekly and not approach the cost of a knight’s.

when I hear value or budget minded I’m thinking less than a grand. Ill go be poor over here in the corner.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I’m not sure how anyone can say knights anything is value oriented with a straight face.

if your using it for your day job then I guess I can see it, but the average desk commando....I think your buying your operator status for the ahhhs at the range and if you got the coin that’s cool but don’t play it off like it’s a value. You could build an aero and shear off bolts weekly and not approach the cost of a knight’s.

when I hear value or budget minded I’m thinking less than a grand. Ill go be poor over here in the corner.

Its easy if you stop and think and have some semblance of understanding of the components and the platform.

Add up all the parts and features and you are pretty close to what the full gun sells for, then add the 11% FET all firearms have and a full factory warranty. The SR15 is also greater than the sum of its parts, its a system tested and proven beyond reproach.

Cheaper to just buy a SR15 that will run like a raped ape than build something similar that will never have the features like E3 bolt or such a well tuned gas system that just runs.

Life is too short to run cheap shit. Don't have time for it.

 

[GUNNER10]

I’m not sure how anyone can say knights anything is value oriented with a straight face.

if your using it for your day job then I guess I can see it, but the average desk commando....I think your buying your operator status for the ahhhs at the range and if you got the coin that’s cool but don’t play it off like it’s a value. You could build an aero and shear off bolts weekly and not approach the cost of a knight’s.

when I hear value or budget minded I’m thinking less than a grand. Ill go be poor over here in the corner.

The thing is regardless of how the end user plans on using the rifle, a solid baseline rifle from say colt is around a grand, BCM's are around 1500, and even DD's are pushing 1800, and those are for rifles with a mil spec BCG, lower and trigger, any attempt to improve those items bring the cost fairly close to a KAC.

Personally speaking for your average shooter, there is nothing wrong with a bargain basement mix master with various levels of qa/qc. Hell considering the number of trigger pullers in the military, most of the military would be probably be fine with one of PSA's daily deals.

you are not wrong about one being able to sheer bolts in an areo and be way under the cost of a KAC. But for some people, their time is worth money, and yeah, I may save a grand, but if a sheered bolt cancel's a trip to the range or a carbine class, what good is it? Same thing if one goes to the range and all of a sudden you are getting some weird issues. personally, I can trouble shoot and solve most of those issues, but for some, that means a trip back to the factory, and if its a mixmaster, one pretty much has to figure it our on there own, and spend the time and ammo to figure out what is going on.


So for me, being deployed most of the time, I dont have the time to mess around with bullshit when i get back home, so I pretty much shoot KAC and LMT and be done with the dumb shit. Nothing wrong with a nice BCM or SOLGW, just need something turn key.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

I don’t mean for my comments to be taken as the knights isn’t an excellent rifle... it most definitely is. The knights has amazing resell value also so it’s a great investment. It’s a lot like watch people a Rolex submariner is a hell of an investment and a beautiful piece of workmanship it has so many great things going for it none of which are value. And just like the Rolex from 15 feet away the invicta quartz clone performs 99% or better than the Rolex as does the generic ar psa/smith/aero perform 95%+ to the knights.

that said I have a submariner wouldn’t be caught dead with an invicta, I see the merits of owning one. I’m not going to kid myself though and think there aren’t better values in telling time...

 

[GUNNER10]

I don’t mean for my comments to be taken as the knights isn’t an excellent rifle... it most definitely is. The knights has amazing resell value also so it’s a great investment. It’s a lot like watch people a Rolex submariner is a hell of an investment and a beautiful piece of workmanship it has so many great things going for it none of which are value. And just like the Rolex from 15 feet away the invicta quartz clone performs 99% or better than the Rolex as does the generic ar psa/smith/aero perform 95%+ to the knights.

that said I have a submariner wouldn’t be caught dead with an invicta, I see the merits of owning one. I’m not going to kid myself though and think there aren’t better values in telling time...

Although I shoot mostly kac and lmt, I do have a 500 dollar special A4 from psa and its fine for what it is. Doesn't change the fact that any any given time there are at least 3 or 4 pages of people having issues with some bargain basement mix master that is just as good over on arfcom.

Does that mean that value guns are junk, not necessarily, just like with anything one gets what the pay for.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

I have a few JP built rifles and they are accurate and reliable

 

[MontanaMan]

totally agree on Aero, can't believe I forgot that. Aero is right up there with many 'premium' brands imho.

I can't even come close to stretching my imagination far enough to even put Aero on the threshold of premium, on an overall basis.

Having said that, I've used a good number of their lowers without any issues, but it's the uppers & barrels that separate the men from the boys & BA barrels are pretty low on my barrels to use list these days.

YMMV

MM

 

[RUTGERS95]

I can't even come close to stretching my imagination far enough to even put Aero on the threshold of premium, on an overall basis.

Having said that, I've used a good number of their lowers without any issues, but it's the uppers & barrels that separate the men from the boys & BA barrels are pretty low on my barrels to use list these days.

YMMV

MM

huh? uppers are the same across the board with little material difference, barrels I agree with but remember that aero isn't playing with lmt or kac but everything underneath, sure.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

huh? uppers are the same across the board with little material difference, barrels I agree with but remember that aero isn't playing with lmt or kac but everything underneath, sure.

Uppers are the same? LOL

Those statements show a complete lack of understanding on the system.

I have these arguments with people who think they are gun guys all the time, including machinists, gunsmiths and FFL's. They think these cheap shitty parts are the same as the more expensive ones because they look similar. AR's are not legos.

There is a HUGE variation in the Quality of a Forged uppers across the board that determine the performance and reliability of the weapon system. Aero Uppers fall on the shitty side of the spectrum. They are very pretty however, which is what most people who don't know any better care about.

The best deal in uppers right now are Colt Takeoffs from Sharkarms or new BCM. They are machined true and can be used as the foundation for any type of gun be in a SBR or a SPR. The ammount of material my truing cutter takes of the shitty uppers compared to say a BCM (that takes almost no material off, they come correct) is significant. Its not even worth my time to touch them off anymore.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Uppers are the same? LOL

Those statements show a complete lack of understanding on the system.

I have these arguments with people who think they are gun guys all the time, including machinists, gunsmiths and FFL's. They think these cheap shitty parts are the same as the more expensive ones because they look similar. AR's are not legos.

There is a HUGE variation in the Quality of a Forged uppers across the board that determine the performance and reliability of the weapon system. Aero Uppers fall on the shitty side of the spectrum. They are very pretty however, which is what most people who don't know any better care about.

The best deal in uppers right now are Colt Takeoffs from Sharkarms or new BCM. They are machined true and can be used as the foundation for any type of gun be in a SBR or a SPR. The ammount of material my truing cutter takes of the shitty uppers compared to say a BCM (that takes almost no material off, they come correct) is significant. Its not even worth my time to touch them off anymore.

sure they are, there's very little variation outside of may 5%. the 80/20 rule absolutely applies here.

you guys are a fking riot here calling lmt and kac value. I've yet to see anyone deluded enough to call the premier offerings of any category anywhere the 'value' offerings .

This board is getting more and more like arfcom which is sad.

First it's let's lube the $hit out of our weapons, regardless of theater (artic and sandbox be damned) to calling kac and lmt value offerings.

dumb is an understatement, willful ignorance is appropriate

I'm out, going to enjoy my coffee and the markets today

carry forward!

 

[CrabsandFootball]

sure they are, there's very little variation outside of may 5%. the 80/20 rule absolutely applies here.

you guys are a fking riot here calling lmt and kac value. I've yet to see anyone deluded enough to call the premier offerings of any category anywhere the 'value' offerings .

This board is getting more and more like arfcom which is sad.

First it's let's lube the $hit out of our weapons, regardless of theater (artic and sandbox be damned) to calling kac and lmt value offerings.

dumb is an understatement, willful ignorance is appropriate

I'm out, going to enjoy my coffee and the markets today

carry forward!

If a gun is a piece of shit you cannot trust your life to, IT HAS ZERO VALUE. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

KAC and LMT provide alot of features along with the reliability you can trust your life to at a fair price. As has already been stated, add up all the features you get and the quality and the factory guns are a good deal.

To those of us who have built and worked on guns for decades, have owned everything under the sun and have the experience to build anything we want, When we say they are a good value, they are. Even the best can throw a bunch of parts together, do all the right things and still end up with something unreliable due to various part interfaces and variance. Or you can just buy the best, not worry about any of that shit and have a gun that just runs and runs and runs. I have a few SR15's with many thousands of rounds without cleaning. One is around 3K then other around 5500 without a through break down. I just wipe the bolt and lube her and she runs anything from weak ass Tula to full power Black Hills Loads. When they start choking I will break them down and do the full routine. Thats the great thing about training carbines, you can use them as test platform.

Its honestly hilarious in training classes watching guns go down, and its almost always what you would expect. Joe home brew throwing shit together or shitty guns from the usual suspects. We actually appreciate getting some more rest while they try to unfuck their equipment.

You want to talk about lube?

How many deployments you got under your belt? You do realize many of us here have more than a few to a sandy environment right? Fine don't listen to those that do this shit for a living, here are two of the top firearms trainers in the world, not to mention both are Former 18B Weapon Sgts who probably have a little more training on small arms than your average joe on the subject:

 

[Winny94]

KAC when you factor in what you get, its a good value. Gun needs nothing but an optic and a can.

LMT, Colt, BCM, Super Duty G guns. Larue UU kits are hard to beat for the money for more precision oriented guns. No reason to buy anything else honestly. If one of those 6 companies doesn't make it, don't need it.

People saying Aero don't build guns for a living. If they did, they would know of the issues with them. They are range toys at best. I just got a shipment of 20 Aero lowers both Gen 2 and M4E1 for long term preps. I KNOW there will be issues with some of them, but hard to beat them for $50 right now. At that price I will cull them or fix myself.

1,000 or even 5,000 is barely breaking in the gun. Come back and talk when you get over 20K assuming you haven't sheared a few bolt lugs off and replaced numerous small parts due to substandard manufacturing.

And this is why C&F isnt on my ignore list - too much entertainment from these types of posts

 

[Winny94]

Did Vickers drop a "bro", "straight up" and "dog" in subsequent sentences......?

I, personally, dont buy into the over lubrication idea, but this videos proves absolutely nothing. Taking from a bucket to the line on a 70 degree day is completely useless outside of getting to use the fancy cameras and creating IG clickbait content.

 

[eelman308]

And if they had dropped one on the ground? Then what? Just asking because, as a guy that grew up on a farm, I can see both sides of this issue because dirt happens.

 

[jmornoinf]

Value is in the eye of the beholder. Reliability trumps everything for a standard AR platform including DMR roles.

I am fortunate to have most if not all ARs mentioned here. KAC stands out as the best of the lot. However my new favorite is the Geissele Super duty 11.5. Checkout this rifle and you will not be disappointed. The soft recoil is pretty cool for a pistol/SBR. Geissele hit a home run on this rifle

 

[Sutherlandsd]

I also have owned or own most of the rifles mentioned and can honestly say other than jp’s being absolute nail drivers but ugly as shit in my eyes and lmt Mars being the shit for lefties... there isn’t much difference to write home about on basically mil spec rifles. They are excellent rifles, they are excellent investments, value you may be stretching the definition though.

That said and earlier it was brought up about crapping out on a class , I have a mil spec smith not the low end one but a cheapie that has personally been through at least 6 carbine classes and used as a loaner for several years now It’s round count has to be over 20k not one part has failed or has been replaced. I have a friend who teaches and uses an old dpms that probably doubles what my smith has had with same story. When I go to the range or if any rifle goes to a class I always have a parts box that would be irregardless of what rifle I took. That box has been lonely over the years...

also for the record the only non Grendel or spc bolt I have ever broken was a bcm and it was after about 200 rounds of cheap federal at a 3 gun match.

also I think this is a different conversation if we were talking ar10 platform. Value can truly be a headache in that realm.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I also have owned or own most of the rifles mentioned and can honestly say other than jp’s being absolute nail drivers but ugly as shit in my eyes and lmt Mars being the shit for lefties... there isn’t much difference to write home about on basically mil spec rifles. They are excellent rifles, they are excellent investments, value you may be stretching the definition though.

That said and earlier it was brought up about crapping out on a class , I have a mil spec smith not the low end one but a cheapie that has personally been through at least 6 carbine classes and used as a loaner for several years now It’s round count has to be over 20k not one part has failed or has been replaced. I have a friend who teaches and uses an old dpms that probably doubles what my smith has had with same story. When I go to the range or if any rifle goes to a class I always have a parts box that would be irregardless of what rifle I took. That box has been lonely over the years...

also for the record the only non Grendel or spc bolt I have ever broken was a bcm and it was after about 200 rounds of cheap federal at a 3 gun match.

also I think this is a different conversation if we were talking ar10 platform. Value can truly be a headache in that realm.

Stop using the term mil spec, you dont understand what it means.

Assuming your round counts are correct ( i dont believe you personally) you are still one data point. We have enough information collectivley to know who makes good gear and who makes shit.

If you havent seen a bunch of bolt failures you really dont have the experience to speak on it. If you havent broken a bunch of small parts, you dont have experience to speak on it. They are common enough in fleet guns run semi-hard with actual pmcs.


This be like a mechanic saying I have never changed a transmission or had to fix a flat tire so they dont happen. Your experience or more specifically lack of it is not reality.

Those of us who have done this for a long time know better.

 

[The DFC]

If I could time travel with knowledge of the present-I'd buy 2 KACs-LPR and regular SR15-instead of the Palmettos and Colts and Sigs and BCMs and Aeros and be done. That would have saved a ton of money -that's value!