Best AR Platform value?

#51
I suspect what you think of as value has a lot to do with who you are and how you are using your AR. I've been shooting for 20+ years and have probably owned 8-9 AR's in that time. Everything from an Olympic Arms to a KAC. Also own a bunch of pistols and a bunch of other rifles. In all that time I can probably count on one hand the number of parts on any of the guns I've owned that I've had to replace because they broke. I've never broken a bolt and, if I did there are an awful lot of companies that would be willing to sell me a replacement. And what's a complete new bolt carrier group going to cost me? $100? $150? Seems to me I can buy a sh*t ton of bolts for the difference in cost between a KAC and a BCM AR 15.

But of course, I'm not a high speed, low drag operator who's kicking down doors and doing ninja rolls. I'm a 60 something guy for whom this is a fun hobby. Now that I'm retired I will go to the range 2-3 times a week and probably go through a couple of hundred rounds of 5.56/.308 a week, plus 100+ rounds of .22, 9mm or .45. If a gun is 98% reliable, accurate and handles well, I'm happy. Today I shot my LaRue UU with an 11.5" barrel. Was consistently hitting 6" steel gongs at 200 yards from a sitting position. The gun was 100% reliable - as it has always been.

Think I paid $792 for the upper assembled from LaRue. Added a blemished Aeroprecision stripped lower for $75, and I was done.

Would a KAC been any more accurate, any more reliable or any more fun to shoot? Not to me.
 
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#52
houndog said:
I suspect what you think of as value has a lot to do with who you are and how you are using your AR. I've been shooting for 20+ years and have probably owned 8-9 AR's in that time. Everything from an Olympic Arms to a KAC. Also own a bunch of pistols and a bunch of other rifles. In all that time I can probably count on one hand the number of parts on any of the guns I've owned that I've had to replace because they broke. I've never broken a bolt and, if I did there are an awful lot of companies that would be willing to sell me a replacement. And what's a complete new bolt carrier group going to cost me? $100? $150? Seems to me I can buy a sh*t ton of bolts for the difference in cost between a KAC and a BMC AR 15.

But of course, I'm not a high speed, low drag operator who's kicking down doors and doing ninja rolls. I'm a 60 something guy for whom this is a fun hobby. Now that I'm retired I will go to the range 2-3 times a week and probably go through a couple of hundred rounds of 5.56/.308 a week, plus 100+ rounds of .22, 9mm or .45. If a gun is 98% reliable, accurate and handles well, I'm happy. Today I shot my LaRue UU with an 11.5" barrel. Was consistently hitting 6" steel gongs at 200 yards from a sitting position. The gun was 100% reliable - as it has always been.

Think I paid $792 for the upper assembled from LaRue. Added a blemished Aeroprecision stripped lower for $75, and I was done.

Would a KAC been any more accurate, any more reliable or any more fun to shoot? Not to me.
Click to expand...
This was what I was trying to get at in my post. KAC is a great rifle and if I was someone in the line of fire for my day job I would probably put it high on my list of weapons. I served 6 years in the military never once did I think my life would be safer with a KAC than a Colt, never heard one person say wish this colt was a kac. Earlier comment from C&F could care less if you believe me or not on my rifles, I have sons who like to borrow rifles for classes and those rifles get shot ALOT, hell even when I take a class I take the cheap shit. I take quite a few people out shooting to introduce them to the sport; that S&W stays in my range box just for that, I have a Dillon press setup just to reload 5.56 so they can shoot until their fingers get tired of pulling the trigger. I have honestly never counted the rounds down that rifle but there has been weekends that have went well into the thousands.. I would say I have a fair amount of experience both as a civilian and in military with the platform. I would say that my $700 Smith was a good value in an AR and if it disintegrated into dust tomorrow I got my moneys worth out of it, but it wont its honestly in the cab of my truck in the lock box under the back seat ready for the next range trip and the abuse it will get putting smiles on the faces of people with no clue what a knights or a smith or a bcm is.

That's value.

If a $3k+ proprietary platform is a value to you then it's also a value. In a tough time like this or whats probably to come though you better hope you dont break that indestructible bolt.
 
#53
Brands I go for, for their value are BCM, DD, and Geissele. Colt and FN are bare minimum for quality. I'll often splurge on LMT and others. KAC is overrated with regards to value. Great stuff, innovative, but overrated.
Having spent time with DOD and in specialized LEO roles, I've used and seen used many different AR's and parts used. I still do comps often. I've seen a number of failures under various circumstances. Therefore, I have no problem spending a little more money so that I sleep better at night knowing that my guns have a better chance at preforming well when I need them to.
 
#55
MontanaMan said:
Please wax eloquent & elaborate on "over rated".

MM
Click to expand...

With regards to value... Yes.
Perhaps, I just haven't seen the conditions where the KAC's would stand heads and shoulders over other brands to be worth 1.5X or even 2X as much. And maybe they are worth every penny. But so far as "value" which is the topic of this thread, they are certainly overrated.

Many may be butthurt over my comment. I get it. I buy Aimpoints. I think they're worth it too. But a "value" they are not. If someone wants a great value red dot, I'll tell them to get a Holosun.
 
#56
Bakwa said:
With regards to value... Yes.
Perhaps, I just haven't seen the conditions where the KAC's would stand heads and shoulders over other brands to be worth 1.5X or even 2X as much. And maybe they are worth every penny. But so far as "value" which is the topic of this thread, they are certainly overrated.

Many may be butthurt over my comment. I get it. I buy Aimpoints. I think they're worth it too. But a "value" they are not. If someone wants a great value red dot, I'll tell them to get a Holosun.
Click to expand...
So KAC's are over priced, but you'll splurge on an LMT for the same $$$$, eh?

Hard to find the logic in that, but I will agree, neither are "value" guns, in the normal sense.

Thread's been re-directed to "value=best available"; I don't think that was the OP's intent with his question.

MM
 
#57
I would spend on an optic 10-1 over a boutique AR.

Guy at the range I shoot at has a Sig Romeo (the one holosun makes on his sr15....) Another guy at one of the ranges I shoot at has a desert tech with a PST gen 1 on it...

Here in TN lots of people park their corvette in from of their mobile homes...

KAC was pretty inovative with e3 bolt but proprietary=no bueno to me. LMT if you or someone you know is a lefty the MARS is an absolute godsend.
 
#58
Yes, the E3 bolt is both a boon & a bain.

It will far outlast most standard bolts, but it'll cost you more than 2 bills for the bolt alone if you do need to replace it & that's if you're lucky enough to find one anywhere in your lifetime.

MM
 
#59
MontanaMan said:
So KAC's are over priced, but you'll splurge on an LMT for the same $$$$, eh?

Hard to find the logic in that, but I will agree, neither are "value" guns, in the normal sense.

Thread's been re-directed to "value=best available"; I don't think that was the OP's intent with his question.

MM
Click to expand...
First, when they were available, LMT's were ~$1800 vs ~$2400 for a KAC. Perhaps I just didn't know where all the KAC deals were... IDK. But LMT's are cheaper.
Either way, I mentioned "splurging" on LMT stuff. I thought that clearly implied that they were beyond the scope of the "value" we were talking about.

This is a thread exclusively requesting people's opinions on brands. Are you legitimately confused about my opinion or just butthurt because you thought I was trashing your favorite brand?
 
#60
Yea nothing like a propietary bolt that has exactly ZERO recorded failures in about 20 years and tens of thousands of guns ran hard.

People complaining about propiritary parts at the same time not even shooting enough to break a trash gun.

Real irony there.
 
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#62
Bakwa said:
First, when they were available, LMT's were ~$1800 vs ~$2400 for a KAC. Perhaps I just didn't know where all the KAC deals were... IDK. But LMT's are cheaper.
Either way, I mentioned "splurging" on LMT stuff. I thought that clearly implied that they were beyond the scope of the "value" we were talking about.

This is a thread exclusively requesting people's opinions on brands. Are you legitimately confused about my opinion or just butthurt because you thought I was trashing your favorite brand?
Click to expand...
Not butthurt in the least.................just trying to understand logic where there seems to be none.

KAC is not what I consider a value gun, as I said, but if you could only have one (fighting) rifle & cost was no object, it would be hard not to pick a KAC; LMT would do just as well. Colt also, just with a more plain-jane slant.

Those aren't boutique weapons, they are serious pieces.

JP is a great play gun, but that's a genuine example of a boutique rifle, good as it may be.

YMMV

MM
 
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#63
MontanaMan said:
Not butthurt in the least.................just trying to understand logic where there seems to be none.

KAC is not what I consider a value gun, as I said, but if you could only have one (fighting) rifle & cost was no object, it would be hard not to pick a KAC; LMT would do just as well. Colt also, just with a more plain-jane slant.

Those aren't boutique weapons, they are serious pieces.

JP is a great play gun, but that's a genuine example of a boutique rifle, good as it may be.

YMMV

MM
Click to expand...
Agreed on all accounts.
I may have misinterpreted some of your previous posts. I apologize if I came off as rough.
 
#64
Kac w
Bakwa said:
First, when they were available, LMT's were ~$1800 vs ~$2400 for a KAC. Perhaps I just didn't know where all the KAC deals were... IDK. But LMT's are cheaper.
Either way, I mentioned "splurging" on LMT stuff. I thought that clearly implied that they were beyond the scope of the "value" we were talking about.

This is a thread exclusively requesting people's opinions on brands. Are you legitimately confused about my opinion or just butthurt because you thought I was trashing your favorite brand?
Click to expand...
The last two brand new KAC SR15 i bought were 1800.

Guess what, everything is more expensive.

A similar featureed LMT is more than a new KAC and is inferior.
 
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#65
Bakwa said:
Agreed on all accounts.
I may have misinterpreted some of your previous posts. I apologize if I came off as rough.
Click to expand...
No problem................that's not rough, LOL

Just a good discussion.

But C&F is right, a similarly configured LMT will be more that an SR-15, if neither price is scalped.

MM
 
#68
RUTGERS95 said:
sure they are, there's very little variation outside of may 5%. the 80/20 rule absolutely applies here.

you guys are a fking riot here calling lmt and kac value. I've yet to see anyone deluded enough to call the premier offerings of any category anywhere the 'value' offerings .

This board is getting more and more like arfcom which is sad.

First it's let's lube the $hit out of our weapons, regardless of theater (artic and sandbox be damned) to calling kac and lmt value offerings.

dumb is an understatement, willful ignorance is appropriate

I'm out, going to enjoy my coffee and the markets today:)

carry forward!
Click to expand...
This is all that I am saying.

Most people the are just getting into AR's are going to get some 1000 to 1200 dollar dpms, stag, or S&W, as they go online and start to explore more, they tend to get new triggers for a couple hundred bucks, and a new rail for another couple hundred bucks, and some tactical troy flip up sights for another couple hundred dollars so at this point they are they have almost 2 grand into something that they might be able to get 800 bucks out of. At that point, you are looking at around a 500 dollar difference, and you are not going to lose anything if they decide to sell it.

Will your average DPMS/Bargain basket AR work fine, i would say yes, The AR is a very refined system and is overall very reliable. But taking into account, most of the shit the people add to their first rifle, the hit on depreciation as well as the hit and miss qc, the higher end stuff is not exactly crazy town,
 
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#69
I'm jumping into this one late. As a guy with a lot of ARs, my first was a Rock River Arms that cost me around $900 and I still have it. My safe also contains a couple KACs, a couple BCMs, a Sig MCX, Colt LE6920, 2 Spikes Tacticals, a Seekins SBR8 and a couple PCCs, one CZ Scorpion Evo3 S1 micro and a Sig MPX. I also have a few 308AR rifles. Two DPMS G2s...a Recon and a SASS as well as a custom built Mega MATEN I built for long range shooting. I'll leave those out of the conversation and stick to the AR-15s. If I were to say which ones are excellent 'value' rifles, I would say either the Colt, BCMs or Rock River.

I really do think Rock River makes a very good quality 'value' AR. It's a bit heavy, but I put a LPVO on it and use it for mid range shooting so the weight isn't an issue and it is mad accurate. The Colt is a great value rifle, no doubt. Especially when they were easily had for under $1k but who knows if CZ will continue building Colt ARs...I hope they do. The best quality 'value' rifles I have? The BCMs, bar none. I'm sure most of you guys have already heard about or read about the Pat Rogers Filthy 14? If not, go look it up. It is incredibly impressive. Tim @ Military Arms Channel has a torture test going on a BCM as well. I think at last count he was up to 7k+ rounds through his with no lube, other than at the start, and it's still going.

If I had to pick the best overall value rifle today, my personal choice would absolutely be a BCM. If my life depended on it and I had to go into a gun fight, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to grab it and go. That's my #1 criteria...it has to be reliable and something you can depend on, if needed. Both of my BCMs are also pretty accurate...more than accurate enough to have a blast with friends at the range and even shoot mid range with. It's also one of my go-tos for classes. I've got a 2-day class coming up at Sig Sauer Academy next month and you can rest assured I'll be taking one of my BCMs with me. Neither of mine are Gucci'd out either. They both run BCM PNT triggers and other than ambi-safety levers, charging handles and mag releases, they are straight up as built by BCM.

Just my $0.02 to add to the conversation.
 
#70
CrabsandFootball said:
Yea nothing like a propietary bolt that has exactly ZERO recorded failures in about 20 years and tens of thousands of guns ran hard.

People complaining about propiritary parts at the same time not even shooting enough to break a trash gun.

Real irony there.
Click to expand...

I look at it as code for "buy another complete rifle-to hold my spare bolt".
 
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#71
jeremyp - Agree on the RRA. I actually started a thread on another sight about why there is so little love for Rock River. Own a RRA National Match upper that I think I paid about $600 for (but that was probably 15+ years ago). Have at least a couple of thousand rounds through it, don't think I've ever had a misfeed or FTF. And the gun is a hammer. Probably the most accurate AR I own, and I also have a KAC and a couple of LaRue's. Not sure how it would do if I was dragging it through the mud and only cleaning it every 10,000 rounds. But if I want to go to the range and shoot little tiny groups or hit steel at 4-500 yards its tough to beat.

And if you're ever looking for an outstanding 1911 at a somewhat reasonable price it's worth trying to find a used RRA. Just an outstanding gun.
 
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#72
houndog said:
I suspect what you think of as value has a lot to do with who you are and how you are using your AR. I've been shooting for 20+ years and have probably owned 8-9 AR's in that time. Everything from an Olympic Arms to a KAC. Also own a bunch of pistols and a bunch of other rifles. In all that time I can probably count on one hand the number of parts on any of the guns I've owned that I've had to replace because they broke. I've never broken a bolt and, if I did there are an awful lot of companies that would be willing to sell me a replacement. And what's a complete new bolt carrier group going to cost me? $100? $150? Seems to me I can buy a sh*t ton of bolts for the difference in cost between a KAC and a BCM AR 15.

But of course, I'm not a high speed, low drag operator who's kicking down doors and doing ninja rolls. I'm a 60 something guy for whom this is a fun hobby. Now that I'm retired I will go to the range 2-3 times a week and probably go through a couple of hundred rounds of 5.56/.308 a week, plus 100+ rounds of .22, 9mm or .45. If a gun is 98% reliable, accurate and handles well, I'm happy. Today I shot my LaRue UU with an 11.5" barrel. Was consistently hitting 6" steel gongs at 200 yards from a sitting position. The gun was 100% reliable - as it has always been.

Think I paid $792 for the upper assembled from LaRue. Added a blemished Aeroprecision stripped lower for $75, and I was done.

Would a KAC been any more accurate, any more reliable or any more fun to shoot? Not to me.
Click to expand...

What Knights did you own? SS or CL barrel? I've owned most and always found them to be the most accurate rifles I've ever shot in small frame ARs-save for maybe JP.
 
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#73
DFC - Not really fair to compare the KAC to the RRA as far as accuracy. Knights is an SR30 with a 11.5" barrel and is CL. Gun is totally set up as a CQB rifle. Collapsible stock. Aimpoint optic. Zeroed at 50 yards. Usually shoot the cheapest 300 BO ammo I can find.

The RRA is an 18" stainless, heavy barreled rifle with a bipod, Geissele trigger, high powered optic, fixed stock and generally put Hornady 60 gr. match ammo through it, which for some reason seems to get the best results.

So two totally different guns designed to excel at different things. And since the KAC is generally shot rapid fire and offhand if it can only hold approx. 1" or even 1.5" at 50 yards I'm still going to be the weak link in the accuracy equation.
 
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#74
The DFC said:
I've owned most and always found them to be the most accurate rifles I've ever shot in small frame ARs-save for maybe JP.
Click to expand...
That kind of talk, especially if you ask what factory rifle is more accurate than a KAC LPR, will getcha banned around here.................just sayin', & tryin' to help a bro stay outta the penalty box. ;)

MM
 
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#75
Havnt seen it name dropped yet, but i have a LWRC DI here I tend to favor. I’m gonna put a better trigger in it, which is one of two negatives to it (other being the monolithic hand guard/needing a special tool for barrel swap). Other then that, it runs whatever I feed it and feels right.

If I can though, I’m gonna add a BCM to the stable. Or a colt if things go right/the market settles.

My other go-to is my home/brew DMR-ish blaster with Geissele guts, Wilson barrel, Toolcraft BCG, etc etc. I’d trust my stuff to that rifle too. It may not have a Gucci name, but I made sure to put quality parts into it.
 
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#76
houndog said:
DFC - Not really fair to compare the KAC to the RRA as far as accuracy. Knights is an SR30 with a 11.5" barrel and is CL. Gun is totally set up as a CQB rifle. Collapsible stock. Aimpoint optic. Zeroed at 50 yards. Usually shoot the cheapest 300 BO ammo I can find.

The RRA is an 18" stainless, heavy barreled rifle with a bipod, Geissele trigger, high powered optic, fixed stock and generally put Hornady 60 gr. match ammo through it, which for some reason seems to get the best results.

So two totally different guns designed to excel at different things. And since the KAC is generally shot rapid fire and offhand if it can only hold approx. 1" or even 1.5" at 50 yards I'm still going to be the weak link in the accuracy equation.
Click to expand...
No doubt-I was just curious thinking you had a 556 blaster. I know when you start getting into the precision stainless world of barrels its a whole differant ballgame. I've never had anything like your RRA and that's something I hope to change in the future.
 
#77
I think this argument is over the top. The crowd that wants absolute perfection in a rifle and anything less has 0 value is kinda out there. I mean, I get it, but it's still just... like... your opinion, man.

There is no question in my mind that the Aero Precisions I now have at home are better than the Army issued rifles I carried in my now 21 years of service. I trusted my life to those without question. I've got an sr25 & SR30 on the way to the house now too, but it's because I wanted the best complete rifles money can buy. Yeah, that has a value all its own, but there's no question that a value-oriented person is getting more rifle for less money when they buy an Aero Precision. That's my pick for the answer to this thread. Their stuff is the cheapest stuff I could find that I would trust my life to, and I think they're punching well above their weight class.
 
#78
False confidence is a thing.

Lots of people swear they trust XYZ......that really doesn't mean shit other than someone believes something that is probably not true.

I can almost guarenfucking Tee you issued M4 and M16 are top to bottom better build guns than just about any aero you pull off the rack. Are there outliers? Yea in ever data set there are flyers. Now take the use/abuse those issued guns go through over DECADES and just keep running and replace them with Aeros? The armorers wouldn't get a weekend off ever.

I went into Iraq with a 30 year old M16A1 overstamped M16A2 that was older than 95% of the people in the unit. Flawless, accurate, couldn't get it to fail to feed even using questionable mags and old VN er corroded ammo we found. She was an unwieldy bitch tho.

Aero are range toys. They are non consistent whatsoever from batch to batch. They are not suitable for fighting or HD guns. Hobby grade, pretty machining but hobby grade.

Add up the individual components from a SR15 and run the cost. What would it cost to build something that will NEVER be as reliable as the factory gun that also is greater than the sum of its parts. Its a finely honed system.

Take a Base Colt or BCM and start outfiting it with components comparable to a SR15. You will end up spending the same money and still never have the 2 greatest features of the SR515, the E3 bolt and Gas System.

What is absolute perfection? A fighting rifle is a piece of saftey equipment. No different than a parachute, ejection seat, ARCFLASH clothing or a Helmet. They can be and are the difference between life and death. Are you going to jump out of a plane with a Parachute made in china and sold at harbor freight? Are you going to save a few bucks and buy a "Blem" or one that has a history of only working 90% of the time. Going to trust your life, your families life, your partners life or your fellow soldiers life to something that has a XX% chance of working?

This is the arguement that needs to be drilled into peoples heads when talking about fighting guns. Its the only one that matters. You need to start thinking of guns as lifesaving pieces of safety equipment. You may not need it today, tommrow or ever. But when you need it, you really fucking need it and it better work. There is no time-outs in real life.
 
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#79
Except for you, right? Your confidence that only your brand will work in a firefight is a fact... everyone else's opinion sucks... I get it. We all get it. You have much more than made your opinion known in this thread.

...but yes. It's just my opinion.
 
#80
CrabsandFootball said:
What is absolute perfection? A fighting rifle is a piece of saftey equipment. No different than a parachute, ejection seat, ARCFLASH clothing or a Helmet. They can be and are the difference between life and death. Are you going to jump out of a plane with a Parachute made in china and sold at harbor freight? Are you going to save a few bucks and buy a "Blem" or one that has a history of only working 90% of the time. Going to trust your life, your families life, your partners life or your fellow soldiers life to something that has a XX% chance of working?
Click to expand...
FYI - Happened to take my KAC SR30 to the range yesterday (along with a couple of pistols). Just having fun and shooting steel offhand at 50-100 yards. Put about 40 rounds downrange at a fairly slow pace because steel was a 45% IPSC target and with my skill level wouldn't have had a lot of hits if I was doing rapid fire mag dumps.

Guess what? Had a FTF. As best I can recall I don't think that's ever happened with my BCM.

Moral of the story? Sometimes getting an uber reliable gun is the luck of the draw and even a high end gun can fail.
 
#82
Wasn't a sub load and don't know that I'd call 300 BLK a toy. Out of a short barrel ballistics are definitely better than 5.56 and my understanding is that it is started to be adopted by some SF types. Personally, for whatever reason, I also just like the recoil impulse of 300BLK out of a short barrel better than 5.56. Just wish ammo was cheaper and more readily available.

Also, I agree that you can effect the reliability of any gun with poor maintenance, cheap ammo, crappy mags, etc. Ultimately, it's not rocket science. Use quality ammo and store that ammo properly. Keep gun relatively clean and well lubed. Use known/good quality mags. And buy a gun from a known/quality manufacturer.

I just don't think it has to be KAC or that you have to drop $2500+ to get a rifle you can rely on.
That's not a knock on KAC, they make outstanding rifles and I really like my SR30. And as someone who currently owns approx. 8 AR's at various price points you could definitely make the case that for the same money I could probably own 3-4 KAC's in various configurations and that might be a better use of my money.
 
#83
I'd like to know more about why 300 BLK is a toy. I ordered an SR30 and my guns certainly are not meant to be toys. If 300 BLK is inherently unreliable, I'd definitely like to know more.
 
#84
Working as an RO on the weekends, the most popular gun I’ve seen on the range is a S&W M&P Sport or whatever it is. I have yet to see one go down, even with all the mag dumps and various types of ammo thrown at them. They are also selling like hot-cakes right now.

YMMV. It’s all personal preference.
 
#85
CrabsandFootball said:
False confidence is a thing.

Lots of people swear they trust XYZ......that really doesn't mean shit other than someone believes something that is probably not true.

I can almost guarenfucking Tee you issued M4 and M16 are top to bottom better build guns than just about any aero you pull off the rack. Are there outliers? Yea in ever data set there are flyers. Now take the use/abuse those issued guns go through over DECADES and just keep running and replace them with Aeros? The armorers wouldn't get a weekend off ever.

I went into Iraq with a 30 year old M16A1 overstamped M16A2 that was older than 95% of the people in the unit. Flawless, accurate, couldn't get it to fail to feed even using questionable mags and old VN er corroded ammo we found. She was an unwieldy bitch tho.

Aero are range toys. They are non consistent whatsoever from batch to batch. They are not suitable for fighting or HD guns. Hobby grade, pretty machining but hobby grade.

Add up the individual components from a SR15 and run the cost. What would it cost to build something that will NEVER be as reliable as the factory gun that also is greater than the sum of its parts. Its a finely honed system.

Take a Base Colt or BCM and start outfiting it with components comparable to a SR15. You will end up spending the same money and still never have the 2 greatest features of the SR515, the E3 bolt and Gas System.

What is absolute perfection? A fighting rifle is a piece of saftey equipment. No different than a parachute, ejection seat, ARCFLASH clothing or a Helmet. They can be and are the difference between life and death. Are you going to jump out of a plane with a Parachute made in china and sold at harbor freight? Are you going to save a few bucks and buy a "Blem" or one that has a history of only working 90% of the time. Going to trust your life, your families life, your partners life or your fellow soldiers life to something that has a XX% chance of working?

This is the arguement that needs to be drilled into peoples heads when talking about fighting guns. Its the only one that matters. You need to start thinking of guns as lifesaving pieces of safety equipment. You may not need it today, tommrow or ever. But when you need it, you really fucking need it and it better work. There is no time-outs in real life.
Click to expand...
necro rising

oh the irony here, glad this cat has been booted
 
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