Night Vision Best bang for your buck in thermal imaging optics?

[Whole Bunches]

Yesterday I took my UTAC-32M out to verify no impact point shift in front of day optics at longer range prior to a friend taking me hog hunting. I had frozen water containers set at 60yd and 110yd. With one AR with a 2-7x scope set at 2x the bullet impact was consistently a foot off to the left at 60yd. With another upper with an Aimpoint PRO, the impact was 2" to the left at 60yd. In both cases I had followed the calibration instructions, checked and double checked. Removed and remounted the thermal...still bad. Unacceptable. Took off the UTAC and the bullet impact was back to normal with both uppers. Removed one of my day optics and could easily zero when using the UTAC as a stand alone sight and fired about 20 shots at 60 & 110yd targets with zero misses (had hot and cold targets set up). Nivisys is suppose to call me back with repair instructions.

 

[Hooper]

Yesterday I took my UTAC-32M out to verify no impact point shift in front of day optics at longer range prior to a friend taking me hog hunting. I had frozen water containers set at 60yd and 110yd. With one AR with a 2-7x scope set at 2x the bullet impact was consistently a foot off to the left at 60yd. With another upper with an Aimpoint PRO, the impact was 2" to the left at 60yd. In both cases I had followed the calibration instructions, checked and double checked. Removed and remounted the thermal...still bad. Unacceptable. Took off the UTAC and the bullet impact was back to normal with both uppers. Removed one of my day optics and could easily zero when using the UTAC as a stand alone sight and fired about 20 shots at 60 & 110yd targets with zero misses (had hot and cold targets set up). Nivisys is suppose to call me back with repair instructions.

So how did this go?
I am not sure any company could produce a truly "Zero impact shift" clip on. It might just be one of those variables you will need to add to the list.

 

[Whole Bunches]

How did it go?...No resolution/answer yet. I was told there is supposed to be no shift in impact.

 

[Hooper]

How did it go?...No resolution/answer yet. I was told there is supposed to be no shift in impact.

Yes, and other manufacturers advertise similar statements but they have a shift. As long as the shift is repeatable, you may just have to adjust for it.

 

[drail14me]

The Nivisys UTAC series had a shift in point of impact of around 2" at 100 yards. However, they have since developed a new alignment process and now their clip-on thermals no longer have a noticeable shift in point of impact. They are now getting less than 1 MOA at 100 yards and the two units I've tested have gotten consistent same hole hits when tested day scope alone vs UTAC applied. They also have a patent pending zoom alignment process that allows you to shoot in 2X zoom with the same accuracy. I don't know of any other Thermal that can do that.

 

[SkyPup]

My FLIR T-70 shoots 1 MOA in 0.5X, 1.0X and 2.0X.

 

[Phantom223]

Not a clip on but my T-320 also shifts the cross arrow to stay on POI when using 2X and 4X zoom

 

[shooter6.5]

Great thread. Keep it going. How does ATN handle their warranty work. In other words is your product gonefrom your hands for a long time and if so do they have a unit to send if asked for.

 

[Phantom223]

There were a couple of guys that bought some of the first ATN THOR thermal scopes and sent them in for software upgrades. From what I read they were very happy with the service but maybe one of them uses this board and can speak on their experenice.

 

[drail14me]

My FLIR T-70 shoots 1 MOA in 0.5X, 1.0X and 2.0X.

Shoots 1 MOA or <1 MOA? My point was that the Nivisys unit has a user alignment process that allows the user to get "dead on" at 2x as it is in 1x. I don't know of another manufacturer that allows the user to adjust the point of impact to "dead on" in zoom mode.

 

[SkyPup]

Shoots 1 MOA or <1 MOA? My point was that the Nivisys unit has a user alignment process that allows the user to get "dead on" at 2x as it is in 1x. I don't know of another manufacturer that allows the user to adjust the point of impact to "dead on" in zoom mode.

Like I said, my FLIRs do that in all three magnifications, 0.5X, 1.0X, and 2.0X.

Here is a pic through the ACOG reticule cowitnessed with the internal 5.56mm ballistic digital reticule with the FLIR on 2X power (8X looking though the 4X ACOG), it is dead on in all magnifications. That tree with the game cam mounted on it is exactly 175 yards away. There is a squirrel eating corn at the base of the tree.

 

[SkyPup]

At least now you know of another manufacturer (FLIR) that provides user alignment of internal ballistic reticules at all magnifications.

 

[drail14me]

At least now you know of another manufacturer (FLIR) that provides user alignment of internal ballistic reticules at all magnifications.

I'm not talking about moving the reticules. Moving the aiming reticule of a clip on into alignment with the reticle of the day optic does not align the thermal ballisticaly with day scope. Moving the ballistic reticle in the thermal moves the zero of the thermal when used as a stand alone scope. The reticle on the thermal shouldn't be needed or used in clip on mode. Please explain your process of alignment and what it does with point of impact when confirming zero on the range at 100 yards?

 

[SkyPup]

Simple, first zero day optic reticule without clip-on thermal attached. Second, attach clip-on thermal and co-witness internal reticules at all magnifications. Third, remove day optic and use thermal weapon scope as stand alone.

You can configure the internal digital menu selections to allow the use of the thermal clip-on as a clip-on with internal reticules lite up and co-witnessed at all magnifications except unity 1.0X to allow the use of a day optic, or your and use the menu functions to turn off the clip-on functions and use the thermal weapon scope as a standalone using ballistic reticules without any day optic reticule.

In all aspects the POA=POI, there is no change in where you point or shoot the rifle, bullet lands in the bulls-eye all the time.

I only zero at 200 yards so that all my shots from close up out to 225 yard are never hit more than 1.5" off POA, works extremely well, is simple to do and repeatable. As you said, everything is dead-on at 0.5X, 1.0X, and 2.0X without the ACOG and then it again is exactly dead-on at 2X, 4X, and 8X when used as a clip-on with the day optic.

 

[SkyPup]

Moving the aiming reticule of a clip on into alignment with the reticle of the day optic does not align the thermal ballisticaly with day scope

Yes it does.

 

[drail14me]

Skypup, if you have your day scope zeroed and "dead on" then you attach your thermal and shoot without co-witnessing your reticles are you dead on or do you have to co-witness your reticles before shooting to be "dead on"?

Now, if you are "dead on" with your day scope and you move your THERMAL reticle down and to the left quadrant of the day scope way out of the way of your day reticle and then shoot aiming with your day optic reticle, where does your bullet hit based on the point of aim?

 

[SkyPup]

Skypup, if you have your day scope zeroed and "dead on" then you attach your thermal and shoot without co-witnessing your reticles are you dead on or do you have to co-witness your reticles before shooting to be "dead on"?

No, You do NOT need to cowitness the internal reticules of the thermal scope with the ACOG or ELcan, it shoots exactly to whereever the day scope optics are pointed.

Now, if you are "dead on" with your day scope and you move your THERMAL reticle down and to the left quadrant of the day scope way out of the way of your day reticle and then shoot aiming with your day optic reticle, where does your bullet hit based on the point of aim?

At exactly the same place it would hit if the thermal scope were not there.

The FLIR T-70 is dead on all the time with or without any internal digital reticules on or off. There is zero alignment required, just place the T-70 in front of any scope you want to use and fire, all hit same place as without the thermal scope in place.

 

[drail14me]

Ok. You and I have been talking apples and oranges. When you co-witness your thermal reticle to the day optic, you are not aligning the thermal, you are just transferring your zero from your day scope to your thermal.

Nivisys allows you to actually adjust the thermal image alignment. The procedure allows the user to actually move the whole image and make fine adjustments if needed to ensure that the thermal image is exactly aligned along the day optic-target line when in 2X mode. No other manufacturer does that.

 

[SkyPup]

No need to do that on any of my three FLIR thermal systems, not a problem whatsoever.....

 

[1whobuys]

I had a Thor 320 4.5 power (under $7200), great scope and I never had any problems with it at all.
ATN has an upgrade program, so after using it for a while I decided I wanted a bit more definition and range.
So I returned it for full credit including the shipping and ordered the 640 in 5X, (under $12K) I can watch and target coyote sized game easily past 700-800 yards without zooming off of 5X
I can pick up heat off of cars WAAAAY far away.
I watch stuff at 1000 yards plus and never go off of 5X and I have 10X, 20X and 40X to go.
Zero is dead on and I transfer between my Knights and LMT with ease.

I could have lived with the 320x240 4.5x but I'n a bit anal and like the best I can get with the sharpest image I can afford so I upgraded to the 640x480 5X
Doing again I would just go with the 2.5X in the 640 so I wouldn't loose as much up close focus..It's that powerful that the 2.5x will still range as far as you'll ever want to shoot.
I take mine to Texas and New Mexico, I have never needed more power 40 miles off road in the wilderness areas yet.

 

[Phantom223]

I hear you on magnification, I bought the 2X 30mm T-320 since most all my shootings is less than 125 yards. I found out very fast having the digital zoom I have a very useful 4X and even the 8X can be useful while it's heavy pixeled it still helps at long range on small targets. In the end my scope can shoot father than my rifle/cal so I'm glad I bought the 2X model vs the 3X or 4.5x for my use.

 

[DingDong]

PAS13CV1 fan here. Serious gear for a good price (if you can find one).