Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

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adam1122

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Aug 10, 2010
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#1
For all the Hide, who do you think makes the most quality Ar-15 (.223) out there today. I only shoot .308 but would like to add a .223 to my collection for shooting steel and taking fighting carbine lessons. I don't want a $600 Ar that is going to break after the first 1K rounds are put through it. CMMG makes some cheap guns but the reliability is questionable.

Just somehing simple, flat top...picatinny rail for mounting an aimpoint but the reliability has to be top notch. What do you guys suggest? M&P? Armalite? BCG group and a good trigger that come with the gun would be optimnal. I could have the folks here in Houston at Talon Arms build me a simple setup for about $1350 or so....I'd like to stay around a grand or under...is this even a possibility or for this kind of money I will be looking at broken BCG's, firing pins and sh*t accuracy. Only need to shoot 1MOA since I dont plan on using this as a long distance rig.

Or, am I out of my mind and need to but an LWRC or the like?

Thoughts?

Thanks guys,
 
#3
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> CMMG makes some cheap guns but the reliability is questionable.

</div></div>

how so?
 
#4
#5
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

I have had great luck with my Armalite. The only issues I have had were due to improperly re-sized reloads. It may be basic and simple, but I don't feel like I would do much better with a high speed piston driven rifle.
 
#7
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Thanks for the feedback guys....btw...my cmmg comment was made because someone who teaches carbine courses has seen alot of failure with their rifles. I want inexpensive but not at the sacrifice of reliability.

I plan on doing a standard M4 with a Larue tactical mount for an aimpoint comp2. Might way the handguards for some drop in quad rails so I can put a surefire scount light on it or the handheld model with the 2 laser light on ot (yeah, I know its pricey).
 
#8
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Del-ton makes a great AR for a good price. I have one I built from one of their kits and have over 12,000 rounds down it. Replaced a barrel once, the ejector spring and the buffer spring. That is all I have ever done to it
 
#13
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Known good mags, known good ammo, keep it lubed is your best bet regardless of the brand name on the rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ohiogunnut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/2557.php

This is a smoking deal for a mil-spec M4 with Aimpoint included for under $1K. Hard to beat. </div></div>

I've heard good things about their uppers. If I wanted a carbine with an Aimpoint (I'm assuming that's a genuine Aimpoint) I would get that in a heartbeat. Very nice package.
 
#14
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only need to shoot 1MOA since I dont plan on using this as a long distance rig.
</div></div>

If you want that kind of accuracy consider an upper with a better barrel that is free-floating. You can have that no problem but it will be more expensive and little heavier than your run-of-the-mill carbine from ______ manufacturer.
 
#16
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Del-Ton? I have no issues with mine, and my brother has had no problems with his. You can build a basic carbine for around 600.
 
#17
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Another vote for Del-ton.. i love mine.. and wanted one for the same reasons you mentioned above..
bought it for $719 as a OD MOE edition.. took off the MOE handguard.. bought a YHM specter length diamond free float quad rail and a YHM low profile gas block for about $150 together.. and then added a couple of rail panels.. all together.. about $900 in and i have thousands of trouble free rounds down range..
not an accuracy beast.. but with decent quality ammo.. hovering around 1 moa is consistent

good luck..
 
#18
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Denny's complete lower for $300.
http://global-tactical.com/dennysgunslowerreceiver-2-1.aspx

<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Bravo Company blem lower for $289
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Lower-Receiver-Groups-M4-AR15-s/156.htm

Bravo Company 16" mid length uppers starting at $490
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-16-Mid-Length-Group-s/27.h</span>tm
</span><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">
Colt 6920 for less than $1K
http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/CO6920.a</span>spx</span>


</div></div>

+1, Please please buy something decent the first time and save yourself a massive amount of headache down the road. If you plan on shooting this thing with any sort of frequency or volume, or ever running a course then things like a properly staked gas key, castle nut, HPT/MPI bolt/barrel with a 1/7 or 1/8 twist will start to show their worth. (Especially when they can be had at similar or even in some cases a better price than shrubmaster, dpms et al.)
 
#19
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NF1986</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Denny's complete lower for $300.
http://global-tactical.com/dennysgunslowerreceiver-2-1.aspx

<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Bravo Company blem lower for $289
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Lower-Receiver-Groups-M4-AR15-s/156.htm

Bravo Company 16" mid length uppers starting at $490
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-16-Mid-Length-Group-s/27.h</span>tm
</span><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">
Colt 6920 for less than $1K
http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/CO6920.a</span>spx</span>


</div></div>

+1, Please please buy something decent the first time and save yourself a massive amount of headache down the road. If you plan on shooting this thing with any sort of frequency or volume, or ever running a course then things like a properly staked gas key, castle nut, HPT/MPI bolt/barrel with a 1/7 or 1/8 twist will start to show their worth. (Especially when they can be had at similar or even in some cases a better price than shrubmaster, dpms et al.) </div></div>

This is all you need to know, based on your original post.
 
#20
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

I wouldn't hesitate to go with a Rock River. They have a very good 2 stage trigger available. My first AR was a RRA and I would do it again. They are showing some sort of Fall Special you may be interested in and there are several dealers in Houston.
 
#21
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

IS rock river the way to go since they carry govt contracts? I dont want to have to replace broken firing pins, extractors, and buffers etc.

Just want to get the best flat top AR that money can buy....most of the money will be for the barrel which is fine with me. I just need something around 16" that will shoot lights out with just a (real) aimpoint) on it.

So far,

Del-Ton
Colt
Rock River
CMMG
AR-Lite (hide sponsor - about $700 or so)
Did I miss any?

You guys think I should just buy the parts seperately and put it together myself? Its the cheaper way to go but I dont want to sacrifice accuracy. I might shoot this rig out to as far as 400Y and then its time to swith weapons.

Thanks bros.
 
#22
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

personally think your over thinking it brother! I've used alot of different flavors of AR's, and if your not trusting your life to it go with pretty much ANY listed above, and My 3-Gun AR is built on a CMMG by the way
 
#23
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Take a look at the Spikes tactical m4 that Aimsurplus.com has at $769.99 . Mil spec and middy gas system .
grin.gif
 
#24
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Been looking up the same thing for a friend. Hes going with a Spikes complete lower and a Loki weapon systems upper. Doing this puts the complete rifle in the 750 range. The very cool thing is that the bolt group is up graded to a fail zero. But like a lot have already said cant go wrong with the del ton, DPMS, or RRA. If you plan on going suppressed later just make sure you upgrade the buffer so you wont have bolt tilt like I am dealing with right now.
 
#25
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

You may want to start looking at a new company Windham Weaponry.

They are the old Windham plant making the guns on the old machines and selling them cheaper than others.We just received one in the shop and it is a bushmaster buy all accounts but about 200$ cheaper.Same alloy, same barrel , same everything as far as I can see. Plus they are using heavy milspec bolts.
 
#26
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MECH1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may want to start looking at a new company Windham Weaponry.

They are the old Windham plant making the guns on the old machines and selling them cheaper than others.<span style="font-weight: bold">We just received one in the shop and it is a bushmaster buy all accounts but about 200$ cheaper</span>.Same alloy, same barrel , same everything as far as I can see. Plus they are using heavy milspec bolts. </div></div>

So it's got a gas key that isn't properly staked and messed up anodizing? ;-/ Just get a BCM/COLT/LMT/etc and be done with it. No reason to spend the same amount for a lesser product like an RRA. https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/law.gw...amp;output=html
 
#28
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

If you are serious about wanting 1 MOA of accuracy with maximum reliability then the only answer is a Noveske. Every one that I have owned (6 different models including 3 chrome lined carbines) have all shot under 1 MOA. Plus they pin their gas blocks in place. They are a bit pricey, but if you buy a stripped lower, lower parts kit, stock of your choice, and an upper separate; you could have a complete gun for around $1k for a basic model or $1,500 for their low profile free floated barrel line.
 
#29
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

He said inexpensive,and I saw no such issues you describe with the rifle I handled. If you ask me get the names that sit in my safe POF, Noveske,H$K 416 and be done with it. High accuracy high reliability equals a higher price. But one could read about how to inspect a rifle and know all the components so when he buy's one he can check for problems not just read some test on a hand full of rifles. All factory's are not perfect and you are going to get a bad rifle some day if you buy enough of them high end or not no matter what.
 
#30
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

The choices here are pretty much endless...a little confused with what I want but it's obvious that I will buy the parts and if I dont put it together I will pay someone to do it for me for $100.
 
#31
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Thats probably your best option these days on a budget plus you can pick and choose the best parts of different manufactures with out paying them a premium for putting your rifle together for you. And you will learn allot about how that thing works.When I started I did just that, I made Frankenstein as I got older and more cash then I bought premium built. Have fun with it and learn.
 
#32
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

look into Stag Arms. they make great stuff the prices start at around $900. and they have a full lifetime warranty, it even covers barrel replacement when you wear the barrel out. I have never had any problems with them. I own 3 of there products. the fit and finish is top notch.
http://www.stagarms.com/
 
#34
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MECH1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RRA and Stag are the same company correct? Just one is the more civilian priced option I think. </div></div>

not exactly, some of RRA's parts are made by CMT. RRA does there own assembly. Stag is owned by CMT in Connecticut. some of the Stag and the RRA receiver's are the same except for the roll marks.
Stag Arms is the retail business owned by CMT. Mark Malkowski the founder and President of Stag Arms used to work for and is the son of Teddy Malkowski, founder of CMT (Continental Machine and Tool).

CMT currently manufactures about 75% of the lower AR receivers on the market. Most brands do not manufacture, they purchase from a machine co. that roll marks with their logo and ser. # for them. CMT is also one of the leading suppliers for military replacement parts.

All the parts for the Stag arms ar-15s are mil-spec (buffer tubes, F marked front sites, MPI's their bolts, chrome lined barrels, etc.) not sure about RRA
 
#35
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that you cannot beat good quality. My first AR was a Bushmaster ORC with an Eotech I picked up for $800. It was a decent gun and obviously it was used and you are not going to find too many deals like that. However, I befriended a local gunsmith who taught me (and showed) me the true differences between a mil spec AR and a nice quality AR. Some of the differences will blow your mind and it's hard to understand some of them unless you have the two AR's in front of you to compare. I ended up selling that Bushmaster to fund a more custom approach to what I wanted. I never looked back. So when these guys say "just pony up and buy a good one, and be done with it", it's because they know there are too many differences to pick through. Mil spec this and Mil spec that. Yes, it's good stuff and will function in the mud but for how long? Even if I buy a rifle for plinking or target practice, I need to know I can rely on it because I may just need it to defend myself one day.
 
#36
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

If you are looking for reliability make sure you get a chrome lined barrel in 5.56 or the wylde chamber. You will be able to fire a wider variety of ammunition with no issues.

Most of the major manufacturers will sell a decent product. most upper and lower forged receivers will be as close as makes no difference the same. This goes with the internal parts as well.

Rock river makes a good rifle, but the place to invest is the barrel, bolt and the trigger. The rock river national match is a good trigger for a good price.

But just like any weapon keeping it clean will help.
 
#37
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

I have a Del-ton with a Adam's Armament Piston System. I have had zero issues or reliability problems. I think I paid around $600 to $650 for the rifle and $1000 with the added piston system. Well work every penny. I could not be happier with the set-up.
 
#38
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are serious about wanting 1 MOA of accuracy with maximum reliability then the only answer is a Noveske. Every one that I have owned (6 different models including 3 chrome lined carbines) have all shot under 1 MOA. Plus they pin their gas blocks in place. They are a bit pricey, but if you buy a stripped lower, lower parts kit, stock of your choice, and an upper separate; you could have a complete gun for around $1k for a basic model or $1,500 for their low profile free floated barrel line. </div></div>

While I completely agree noveske's are great guns, they are by no means the only 1 MOA game in town. I own 4 6920's that all shoot between .8-.9 (caveat all are freefloated however, shaved FSB) as well as an LMT that shoots right at 1 MOA with the CL 10" barrel, and around .75 with the stainless 18". My guess is there are plenty of others out there that do this as well, and since the OP stipulated inexpensive there is no reason for him to jump right into an N4
 
#40
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Cheech - I took a look at Kelly Firearms (I had never heard of them). But apparently they make a full mil-spec ar-15 m4 for $650...completely assembled. Now, does anyone have one of their rifles and can vouch for their quality? $650 bucks for a M4 is less than my Sig p226r carry sidearm. Can a weapon this inexpensive really perform or should I expect to get what I pay for?

Their are some many damn ways to go when putting together a quality M4 style rifle its giving me a headache....build one...or buy a completed rifle from a well known manufacturer.

All I want to do with this thing is shoot steel plates, take fighting carbine courses to keep my skills sharp...and shoot game animals when appropriate (mainly pigs).

Keep the suggestions coming - this is one of the best threads that I have seen in a while.

Thanks bros.
 
#42
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Check out Rock River Arms website...they list the expected accuracy of each rifle. I have the ATH and it was listed as 3/4" at 100 yards and it shoots less than that with handloads. So far, I'm really pleased with RRA
 
#43
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cheech - I took a look at Kelly Firearms (I had never heard of them). But apparently they make a full mil-spec ar-15 m4 for $650...completely assembled. Now, does anyone have one of their rifles and can vouch for their quality? $650 bucks for a M4 is less than my Sig p226r carry sidearm. Can a weapon this inexpensive really perform or should I expect to get what I pay for?

Their are some many damn ways to go when putting together a quality M4 style rifle its giving me a headache....build one...or buy a completed rifle from a well known manufacturer.

All I want to do with this thing is shoot steel plates, take fighting carbine courses to keep my skills sharp...and shoot game animals when appropriate (mainly pigs).

Keep the suggestions coming - this is one of the best threads that I have seen in a while.

Thanks bros. </div></div>

I own two of them. I havn't had any problems yet and they both shoot very well...better than me. They're great rifles. Steve's just not greedy.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...538#Post2820538
 
#44
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

I'd like to stay around a grand or under...SteelShot

this is what i'd get, it's a little over but the extra $160 is money well spent!!!

Noveske factory seconds stripped lower $150.00
Daniel Defense AR15 Lower Parts Kit $82.00
VLTOR IMOD Standard Stock Kit $151.95
Upper: Noveske 5.56MM Recce - 16 Basic $785

Total $1168.95

 
#45
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

Not a bad suggestion...especially the barrel. The reason Id like to stay under a thousand is because I want to put a real Aimpoint on it...not some Vortex Strikefire sight for $150 (there are lots of stories of these things just not working, not holding zero, dots cutting out etc).

If I can get a decent rifle for a couple hundred bucks then I can spend more money on optics. I just am having a hard time buying into the fact that one can get a real mil-spec M4 for 650 bucks and not have something on it break when I beat the hell out of it.

Ive already got 2 other AR's with a bunch of money sunk into them so I just need a gun for plinking steel and killing some pigs inside of 300 yards. Nothing fancy...it just has to work.
 
#47
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

After all this info, it looks like Kelly Firearms can put together a mil-spec M4 with a chrome lined barrel for $700. Unless anyone pops up and says don't buy it I am going to grab one of these things.

Thanks for the excellent input
 
#48
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

My first AR was a CMMG. Bit me in the ass as it had major feeding issues with every major ammo brand. Never could track it back to the source. Ended up building my 2nd, an M&P lower on a BCM upper.

I'm running the Vortex Strike Fire that you so were so quick to talk down upon. It's been great for me. Losing zero issues could be chalked up to the mount not being properly torqued and loosening up. You can wrench these up tight so don't pussyfoot it and you'll be fine.
It's a good sight that offers MOST of what an Aimpoint does for less than half the price.
Plus, Vortex has some of the best CS in the biz so if something does go wrong you have no worries. All I'm saying is try it before you let some people on the internet condemn it for you.
 
#49
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

The Strikefire blows IMO, had 2 of them, neither one impressed me. Both had issues with the on off switches. Sure the CS is great, but what good does CS do me when I need a sight that works.
 
#50
Re: Best inexpensive .223 rifle M4

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blu109</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like to stay around a grand or under...SteelShot

this is what i'd get, it's a little over but the extra $160 is money well spent!!!

Noveske factory seconds stripped lower $150.00
Daniel Defense AR15 Lower Parts Kit $82.00
VLTOR IMOD Standard Stock Kit $151.95
Upper: Noveske 5.56MM Recce - 16 Basic $785

Total $1168.95

</div></div>

You don't need the Noveske Lower. They just source those from different places over the years. JD Machine most recently I believe. You can buy a JD Machine lower for $80-90 or any other forged lower and save some money right there. Unless the roll mark matters to you. If going with Vltor, take a long look at the A5 system. Can be purchased separately or with an EMOD. Worthwhile upgrade.
 
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