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'Best' Iron Sights Shooter
- Thread starter tikka6.5
- Start date
First, yes it's true, the longer the sight radius the better when it comes to iron sights.
As too which is best, assuming you're talking about vintage military rifles I would say the 1903A3. All one has to do is to check the scores on the CMP GSM matches (Garand, Springfield, Military) matches and see the 1903s have higher scores overall then any of the others.
I say the 'A3 over the 1903 because of the longer sight radius.
As too which is best, assuming you're talking about vintage military rifles I would say the 1903A3. All one has to do is to check the scores on the CMP GSM matches (Garand, Springfield, Military) matches and see the 1903s have higher scores overall then any of the others.
I say the 'A3 over the 1903 because of the longer sight radius.
Kraig,
Not only the longer sight radius but the rear sight being a "peep"on the A3 versus the shallow V on the 03
Most don't like em, but I love the sights on my Persian mauser. I shoot better under 200 yards with that old biddy than I do with any of my scoped rifles.
On a vintage rifle you can't beat the 03A3 for irons, the rear peep is worlds apart from the notch sights. You have a lot better options when you look at the irons on a Match Rifle though. Adjustable diopters and globe sights are far more precise.
Years back, I was told that the Swedish Mausers dominated the Military Bolt class. I have a personal fetish for the Mosin-Nagant 91/30. Either will do well enough, assuming the bore hasn't been trashed. Having owned a 1903A1, all I can say is that I personally believe it's too much cartridge in too light a gun. I could not manage the sustained recoil so I sold it off. I was undergoing Cancer treatments at the time.
eh, flip up the sight. there's a nice little peep on the 03, along with about 3 other apertures, including the V that you mentioned.
That being said, I love my 03A3's peep. suits my needs a lot better, and you don't have to flip and fiddle.
Fair enough all, but you've got to take into account the ergonomics of the stock as well. Sights alone do not a rifle make.
Just a side note: Making the 1903/1903a3 better regarding sights. It's legal (per CMP rules) to use a wider front sight. The Marines went to a .10 sight on their Springfield's. I went with the .075 as it matches the front post on the M1 and M14 rifles.
My scores have improved. Much easier for my 65 year old eyes.
My scores have improved. Much easier for my 65 year old eyes.
I rework my spamcan steelcase Berdan surplus 7.62x54R, remetering the original propellant to the published average weight and reseating the original projectiles to the max published length within the production variations (3.035"). Reference: 7.62x54r.net
This reduces flyers and allows the barrel to shoot to its potential, whatever that may be. The significant length of the Mosin-Nagant 91/30's barrel (28+") can be advantageous in augmenting velocity and extending the sight radius. My current (three) rifles have all been modified with frugal/modest Scout mounted scopes, but I am looking for another 91/30 to be shot in rack grade condition.
Then there's the price, most can still be had for under $200 and spamcan ammo goes for around/under $.30 a shot.
It's corrosive and quite dirty, but even with the extra cleaning effort, it's still quite a bargain. I simply clean as usual with Gunslick Foam, then follow up with Windex.
Greg
This reduces flyers and allows the barrel to shoot to its potential, whatever that may be. The significant length of the Mosin-Nagant 91/30's barrel (28+") can be advantageous in augmenting velocity and extending the sight radius. My current (three) rifles have all been modified with frugal/modest Scout mounted scopes, but I am looking for another 91/30 to be shot in rack grade condition.
Then there's the price, most can still be had for under $200 and spamcan ammo goes for around/under $.30 a shot.
It's corrosive and quite dirty, but even with the extra cleaning effort, it's still quite a bargain. I simply clean as usual with Gunslick Foam, then follow up with Windex.
Greg
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The standard sight with of the M1903 - 1903a3 was .050. The Marines went to the .10 sight. The height of the front sights were manufactured in .537, .522, .507, .492, and .477.
Other sight heights were encountered because GI's were fond of using a file instead of getting another sight from the armors.
To determine which sight you needed. Measure the sight radius. Set the rear sight and the 100 yard mark and shoot a 100 yard target. Measure the group to see how high or low you are.
100 yards is 3600 inches. Divide the sight radius by 3600 and that will give you how much you need to move the front sight per MOA. Then measure your front sight height. Find the sight blade that gives you that measurement.
Lets say your sight radius is 23 inches. (I pulled that number out of my hat). 23/3600 = .00638
Lets say your front sight is .492 and you are shooting 5 inches high. You want to lower the front sight 5 inches. 5 X .00638 = .0319.
.0319 + .492 (your existing sight) = .5239. You would switch to the .522 sight blade.
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Now as to the sight width, besides easier to see for my old eyes, I like the thicker sight becauses its easier to use as a range finder. When I was using M1C/Ds in my sniper schools, we found the average width of the M1's front sight was .076" or the same with of the 19 inch wide e-silohette target at 250 yards. So if the front sight is the same size as the target, the target was 250 years away. If the front sight was 1/2 the size of the target its 125 yards. Twice the size of the target then its 500 yards. With practice you can get pretty dern close. The .075 sight is pretty dern close.
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Hi Greg, Get an M39 with a great bore. They are MOA out of the box.
I have tried what you are doing with essentially reloading the factory ammo. It will help a little. If you take it to the extremes and weigh, measure length and diameter of every bullet, then put them in groups, it will help a little more.
For best accuracy outside of careful handloads with match componets, buy some Extra Match 200 grain. It is kick butt match ammo having won international competition. It is better than US match M72 and M118 in my experience. Factory specs require it be under 9 cm spread at 300 meters for 20 shot groups. Much of it is ratedk/tested in the seven cm range, I have 7.1 to 7.7 on most of mine. Next best factory ammo is Target match 182 grain IIRC rated at max of 12 cm and much of it is in the 8-10.5 cm rating. Both are made at factory 188 code which also makes 7N1 and 714N sniper ammo. Kinda the Russian LC in a way.
Many Mosins do well but the open sights are not ideal. There is a guy in Tx that makes a nice peep for the M39 that installs with no mods and makes old eye shooting a bit easier.
I have an excellent Eddystone 1917 that is a great shooter. Problem I have is if I don't pay attention and try to shoot fast, I end up getting on one of the ears instead of the front sight, that will screw up your group.
A few years ago I took all my surplus rifles to one of those Machine Gun "fun" shoots. I was set up next to a guy with a 1919a4 (guy was having a blast. Anyway the called a cease fire so they could add more targets, mostly fire extinguishers.
I spotted one and ranged it at 450 yards. When we started shooting again, the guy with the M1919a4 started shooting at the one I spotted. Hitting all around it. I set the sights on my M1917 at 450 and let go, hitting the fire extinguisher with the first shot. The machine gunner says "Hey, I was shooting AT that"..... I told him "well I was HITTING it". He laughed and complemented my on my rifles.
Luckiest shot I ever made. Almost looked like I knew what I was doing.
Those Mode 1917s are great shooters.
Problem with the M1917, if you add its bayonet, that puppy isn't something you'd want for building searches.
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I'm with ya Kraig. The M1917 is a phenominal rifle that got screwed in it's timing, late WW1 and too soon for WW2, used but not in mass due to the M1. The M1917 is sorta like the Korean war, only in the rifle version, the "forgotten rifle"
Actually, there were more M1917's used in WWI then Springfield's. At the end of the war, 75% of our troops carried the M1917.
No one figured the need to engage in the war in Europe, and after ten years it was deemed we had enough, so in 1913, production of 1903s was halted at Springfield and Rock Island Armories.
When the war started we 600,000 Springfield's and 160,000 Krag's.
Springfield couldn't come close to supplying the rifles needed to supply the 2.5 Mil. needed. Since American firms were already geared up to produce the Enfield's, it was much easier for them to switch over to the M-1917.
No one figured the need to engage in the war in Europe, and after ten years it was deemed we had enough, so in 1913, production of 1903s was halted at Springfield and Rock Island Armories.
When the war started we 600,000 Springfield's and 160,000 Krag's.
Springfield couldn't come close to supplying the rifles needed to supply the 2.5 Mil. needed. Since American firms were already geared up to produce the Enfield's, it was much easier for them to switch over to the M-1917.
After you pull the bullets and remeter, what do you do to the case? Do you resize it or just seat the bullet back in?
personally i'm going with the 03a3 first with issued sights, then the K-31, if have the diopter sights for the k-31 it goes to the head of the class. then the garrand. part of it is the accuracy potential of the rifles themselves. also the swedes are right up there. the 96 and the ljungman.
Given the language of the OP's question, I'm surprised no one has nominated the M16/M16A1 series. Not because it's such a great iron sight shooter, but because it was scientifically designed with the carrying handle as to make it physically impossible to mount a scope on the things!
So I'll say the original M16s, simply due to the difficulty in putting any sort of optics on them.
So I'll say the original M16s, simply due to the difficulty in putting any sort of optics on them.
I went the other way, I put a thicker front sight on my M1917 Eddystone.
For a "unique sight" don't forget the Model 1901 Sight for the Krag rifle, It has three notches and a peep, The first notch was for BSZ, set for 375 yards, had a "B" marked on the left side of the sight base to indicate BSZ. The U notch on the slide went from 450 to 1900 yards. The peep went from 100 to 1775 yards, and the top notch was for 2000 yard shooting.
It also had windage adjustments by pivitoing the sight, there were marks for this but were set for 5.86 change (IPHY) at 100, Rather course for precision fire.
Also the 1903a3 sights were good, but you were limited to 800 yards with 100 yard increments and the windage adjustments were course, 4 MOA.
That brings us to the M1/M14, in my opinion the best sights on a battle rifle, positive 1 MOA clicks from 0 to 1200 yards and positive 1 min windage.
The M16A2 were close, better yet on my civilian version, (White Oak) which is .5 Min Clicks. You don't have the range using the rear sight only but no biggy if you use your front sight.
For example on my White Oak to shoot 1000, I simple use my 600 yard zero and screw down the front sight 4 full revolutions.
Still, my personal opinion, the M1/M14 were the best military sights made if we're talking sights only. (Not that there is anything wrong with either rifle, both are great, just heavy for humping days at a time.
My vote is for the No 4 Lee Enfield. With the proper length stock, a correctly free-floated barrel, a change to a narrow front sight blade and a vernier caliper rear sight it can be one of the most comfortable and capable rifles to shoot in traditional positional matches with a jacket/sling.
Kraig said:
I usually don't like to think of guns like the M14 or M16 as "vintage". Maybe that's just a sign that I"m getting old!
I absolutely love the NM sights on my M1A, however. But I agree that the 03-A3, M1, M14 and M16A2 are probably my favorite all around style of sights. I can pick up any one of those weapons and they all just feel right to me.You know, a lot of people complain about the sights on the Type 99. But, I actually kind of like them, too.Big_Rig said:
My favorite shooting rifle is the M38 Swedish Mauser - the sights are not that great but it fits me just right.
Next in line is the Springfield 1903A3.
I utilize my own cast bullets in feeding these rifles.
Carl
Next in line is the Springfield 1903A3.
I utilize my own cast bullets in feeding these rifles.
Carl
Actually, pretty easy to mount a scope on the carry handle. Theres the original style Colt scopes and copies that mount directly to the handle, plus several options for railed adapters that mount up there. They generally put the optic quite high, no problem, I just shoot it left handed with my left cheek on the stock and my right eye behind the scope.
I quite like the sights on my mosin, don't know that they're the best.
Hey Kevin
The Lapua caps you sent me need an oil change....badly!! You got any more?? We talked in Oklahoma a bit back when you were heading to Phoenix!!
The Lapua caps you sent me need an oil change....badly!! You got any more?? We talked in Oklahoma a bit back when you were heading to Phoenix!!
