Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

sobrbiker883

sobrbiker883

Lt. Colonel
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 18, 2003
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Gilbert AZ
#1
Sounds like a noob question, but I'm looking for input from <span style="font-weight: bold">precision comp shooters</span> on what's the best short action caliber currently for comp rifles. I've shot 308, 7-08, 65CM and 6XC.
Currently I'm running a 6XC most often, but am not 100% married to it, and my backup rifle is 6.5 Creedmoor

I want an accurate easy to load for with readily available components, feeding 100% reliably from AICS sized mags, and good barrel life.

Gotta decide pretty soon what my next tube is gonna be for 2013...
 
#4
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

7mm something!

You just can't beat 7s ballistically.

7-08, 7-08AI, 7 Creedmoor, or for a bit more horsepower, a 284.

My SA 284 is seeing 2850fps with 175smk (G1BC=.64)... Compare that with the 6s and 6.5s....
 
#5
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

Most of Team GA is moving to the 6CM. 6.5CM brass is next to free now and 6CM stamped brass is inexpensive per the quality from George. Extra capacity helps with getting the speed up over the XC. Shorter case keeps the bullet out of the shoulder like the .243. As a comp cartridge the 6CM is hard to beat.

And all the guns George is chambering are hammers.
 
#7
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

Steve,

I've a 6mm barrel on the way and am seriously debating a straight 243 or 6XC. Elpers is hammering his 6XC, and I believe that there is a bump in barrel life over a straight 243, but am not sure. Straight 243 with 115 DTAC's is sure good on paper, and I know quite a few that run that combo with great results...but it does not address your question on barrel life. I am leaning to a 243 mostly because I am nerdy about finding brass easily...I think you can only get 6cm from George? No problem, we all know that George is the man, but it still is something for me to think about.

Club matches get my straight 223 for the time being, and I'm running my 260 in big matches until the barrel dies sometime in the 2013 PRS season. From there I suspect you and I will be running the same caliber. Good luck.
 
#9
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve,

I've a 6mm barrel on the way and am seriously debating a straight 243 or 6XC. Elpers is hammering his 6XC, and I believe that there is a bump in barrel life over a straight 243, but am not sure. Straight 243 with 115 DTAC's is sure good on paper, and I know quite a few that run that combo with great results...but it does not address your question on barrel life. I am leaning to a 243 mostly because I am nerdy about finding brass easily...I think you can only get 6cm from George? No problem, we all know that George is the man, but it still is something for me to think about.

Club matches get my straight 223 for the time being, and I'm running my 260 in big matches until the barrel dies sometime in the 2013 PRS season. From there I suspect you and I will be running the same caliber. Good luck.

</div></div>

You can use 6.5CM brass for the 6CM. That stuff laying around every match.
 
#10
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

Charlie -

Brain fart, I should have known that. Good information, thanks. That might seal the deal for me.

Josh
 
#14
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice point Matt.
I wonder if there's a 7SLR.... </div></div>

What the 7mm-08 should have been to begin with.
 
#15
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

I just built another 243, but now that the 105 Hybrid is available in quantity, I don't think you can beat an XC (or Creed is fine, too).

They are a little short on boiler room for DTAC's, and I have a pile of them, hence the 243.
 
#16
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattsnuked</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anything the 6 creedmoor does the SLR could do as well for half the price in brass. </div></div>

What is the parent brass?
 
#17
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

Stick with what you've got. A 6XC is a great cartridge and I don't see much of a difference ballistically between it and the 6CM. Or the 6x47 Lapua for that matter.
 
#18
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattsnuked</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anything the 6 creedmoor does the SLR could do as well for half the price in brass.</div></div>

Half the price?

How much is the brass? .30?
How much do you allow for the fire forming?
 
#21
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

Chiller/Mike, the 6 SLR is just a 243 with the neck/shoulder junction moved back and made into a 30 degree. No fire forming needed, just run it into a die and shoot it. Loses about a grain of capacity over a 243. So WW 243 brass price, not 1/2 as stated.
 
#22
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

6X47L, 6XC, 6mm creedmoore, .243AI, .243. Hard to beat the 6mms. Then again the 6.5s will have some advantage in the wind. Trade offs really.

 
#23
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Half the price?

How much is the brass? .30?
How much do you allow for the fire forming? </div></div>

That price is about right and my loads are within a few fps between new and FF brass. I say run whatever you like but I hate paying for expensive brass just to loose it at matches.


Blackops2, I think you need to double check your numbers wind is about the same.
 
#24
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

I'm glad I found this post as I have been trying to remember what that cartridge is called (6 SLR).

Here's a link to more info I found interesting.

http://www.6mmar.com/Super_LR.html

It looks like a great cartridge with the ability to make your brass with ease. No fire forming.

I run a 6.5 Creedmoor but may be willing to make the switch on my next barrel just for the easy brass. Maybe.
 
#25
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice point Matt.
I wonder if there's a 7SLR....</div></div>

It has been talked about, but I have been searching for someone to actually pull the trigger. So far, negative.

You and I were talking about the 7 CM in the pit a couple of months ago. Some guys are claiming to get 2900 fps with the 162 Amax. I'm with you in thinking this is bull, but decided to try it out for myself. I ordered a reamer, and a blank. If it doesn't work out, I'm gonna re ream to 7 SAUM (been wanting one).

I guess we will see....
Ty
 
#26
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fireguyty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice point Matt.
I wonder if there's a 7SLR....</div></div>

It has been talked about, but I have been searching for someone to actually pull the trigger. So far, negative.

You and I were talking about the 7 CM in the pit a couple of months ago. Some guys are claiming to get 2900 fps with the 162 Amax. I'm with you in thinking this is bull, but decided to try it out for myself. I ordered a reamer, and a blank. If it doesn't work out, I'm gonna re ream to 7 SAUM (been wanting one).

I guess we will see....
Ty

</div></div>

Curiousity piqued. Keep us posted on that 7CM. I imagine the 7SLR would be *almost* identical.
 
#27
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

To the top again.

This post is too interesting to fade away.

It looks like mattsnuked has a SLR.

Anyone else?

A 7 SLR might be pretty nice.

I've never shot factory 6.5 Creedmoor. Always reloaded, so, the SLR case looks good to me.
 
#28
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

243, does everything the 6mm designer cartridges will do. Option for factory ammo, cheap/available components.

Get a 26"+ barrel, a box of dtacs get them up to 3100ish fps (where ever your rifles sweet spot is), and shoot away. Ballistically you wont be giving anything up, and you will be doing it cheaper.
 
#29
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

I would stick with the 6XC. Have you tried Reloader 17 yet? I get an even 3100 fps (with 115 DTAC) with a 25" Bartlein at 38.7 grns of powder. Have run it all the way to 40 grns before hitting pressure, 3250 fps. Less powder than the SLR and Creedmoor is gonna give you an edge in barrel life. With the fps limit at a lot of comps now being set at 3100 for the preservation of their steel, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to go for the extra case capacity of the SLR or Creedmoor when you're just gonna give up barrel life and not be able to utilize it.

-SBS
 
#30
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

One thing I'm not fond of is how weak 6mm is on reactive targets at distance. I've witnessed points lost if the scoring spotter isn't a top notch spotter.
I also like how a 6 at 3000fps, a 6.5 at 2900, and a 7 at 2800 are all apples to apples ballisticly until distance starts showing the retained energy advantage.

Ty-if you've got a 7CM reamer, we need to talk in the near future. I think I'd be willing to try it in a tube and as you said, it it aint what its cracked up to be a 7SAUM could be made....
 
#31
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

If the offered info is directed my way, please leave DTacs out of the picture. I can't stand them and the way their originator pushes them but shoots SMK's....
 
#32
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I'm not fond of is how weak 6mm is on reactive targets at distance. I've witnessed points lost if the scoring spotter isn't a top notch spotter.
I also like how a 6 at 3000fps, a 6.5 at 2900, and a 7 at 2800 are all apples to apples ballisticly until distance starts showing the retained energy advantage.

Ty-if you've got a 7CM reamer, we need to talk in the near future. I think I'd be willing to try it in a tube and as you said, it it aint what its cracked up to be a 7SAUM could be made.... </div></div>

We clearly see eye-to-eye. I've also seen 243s make hits on flashers, but not move the flasher at 800 yards. There have been times 6s (and even 6.5s) produce no splash on a miss, where 7s and 30s did. Of course, there are conditions where nothing will splash, but there is no argument that bigger bullets produce more. I am NOT a top notch spotter, and Ive said "no call" on 223s and 6s where someone who WAS a top notch spotter called a hit. The 6s sure are flat and recoil is nil, which is nice, but the better splash, energy, barrel life and in many cases windage advantage of the 6.5s and particularly 7s leaves me to choose them (especially 7s).

I also want "in" on that 7CM reamer!
 
#33
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fireguyty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice point Matt.
I wonder if there's a 7SLR....</div></div>

It has been talked about, but I have been searching for someone to actually pull the trigger. So far, negative.

You and I were talking about the 7 CM in the pit a couple of months ago. Some guys are claiming to get 2900 fps with the 162 Amax. I'm with you in thinking this is bull, but decided to try it out for myself. I ordered a reamer, and a blank. If it doesn't work out, I'm gonna re ream to 7 SAUM (been wanting one).

I guess we will see....
Ty

</div></div>

+1 on keeping us posted man, I too am somewhat skeptical of all the hype about it
 
#34
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fireguyty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It has been talked about, but I have been searching for someone to actually pull the trigger. So far, negative.

You and I were talking about the 7 CM in the pit a couple of months ago. Some guys are claiming to get 2900 fps with the 162 Amax. I'm with you in thinking this is bull, but decided to try it out for myself. I ordered a reamer, and a blank. If it doesn't work out, I'm gonna re ream to 7 SAUM (been wanting one).

I guess we will see....
Ty

</div></div>

Must be a looong barrel and serious pressure. I'm going to need a little salt with that, but I'm interested in seeing how it turns out.
 
#35
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the offered info is directed my way, please leave DTacs out of the picture. I can't stand them and the way their originator pushes them but shoots SMK's.... </div></div>

I don't care what Tubb is shooting now, why does it matter? And Sierra makes the DTAC's anyway so why does it bother you that Tubb no longer shoots them? They are both Sierra bullets, only difference is one has a different label than the other. If he found a different mouse trap that he prefers, that doesn't make the DTAC a bad bullet. It's still a lot of performance at a very competitive price.
 
#37
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

Just to clear up any misunderstandings.

I used DTAC 115's every year at the 300 and 600 yard stages of Camp Perry (use a lighter weight Sierra for 200 yds).
I have also used them every year (excepting 2010) in all the 1000 yard matches at Camp Perry. I shoot at a 308 in the Palma Match so never use them there.

DTAC 115's hold by themselve both of the NRA Long Range Record scores (NRA changed course of fire 2005).
Old course of fire - Clean score of 1450 101x in 2004
New course of fire - One down score of 1249 68x in 2011.

DTubb
 
#38
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTubb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to clear up any misunderstandings.

I used DTAC 115's every year at the 300 and 600 yard stages of Camp Perry (use a lighter weight Sierra for 200 yds).
I have also used them every year (excepting 2010) in all the 1000 yard matches at Camp Perry. I shoot at a 308 in the Palma Match so never use them there.

DTAC 115's hold by themselve both of the NRA Long Range Record scores (NRA changed course of fire 2005).
Old course of fire - Clean score of 1450 101x in 2004
New course of fire - One down score of 1249 68x in 2011.

DTubb </div></div>

Looks like he's shooting them. Thanks David, good to know.
 
#39
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

I recently looked at this considering that I've been shooting the 6.5CM and 260's for a couple of years and more than several barrels. A good friend and extremely capable match shooter buddy has been rocking the 243 in comps for ages and it's an awesome competitor in our game. He shoots Mr. Tubb's DTAC coated in HBN @ 3080fps

I put data in there that I've seen first hand and all the values are using the (Litz) options in JBM all at 0'DA with identical HoB, Zero, etc etc inputs.

208 Amax @ 2750 from my 26" 30-06 (not a short action but the plots were already made)

162 Amax from a friend's 26" 7mm CM that has been SBN'd
140 Amax from my 22.5" 6.5CM
115 DTAC from another friend's 24" 243 Win

Note that where the 243 rocks everything in drop due to good BC and excellent speed the wind is where the money is made and the lowly 30-06 quickly separates itself from the rest of the pack.

My $0.02, is that the 6.5CM/260/6.5x47L or a 7CM/7GPC/7-08 is the ticket to balance the following considerations:

Solid trajectory for KD and UKD applications
Powder use/burn is appreciably the same across all the SA's in the size of a 308
Wind performance is negligibly different at 1000yd and for this game, most shots don't go over 800 let alone 1000yd. Very very very few break into the 4 digits.
Barrel life
Projectile and brass cost

Overall cost of ownership is

Powder use: Wash
Barrel life: 7's, then 6.5's, then the 6's
Bullet cost: Hornady 6/6.5's cost effectively the same, 7's are slightly more expensive to tie with the DTAC but they're all within $0.05/bullet of each other


So, it comes down to what you really need the rifle to do, any of them make great platforms to compete with but for someone that can't saddle the extra cost of a barrel installation every 12-18 months (for most competitive 243 shooters, some much more often than that) then the 6.5 family makes a lot of sense and the short action 7's do even better.

I <span style="font-style: italic">WAS</span> considering a 6mm of some flavor until I ran the numbers shown in the plots below only to realize that I"m not buying anything except more time in the shop barreling up 6mm barrels instead of shooting on a Saturday afternoon.


<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Drop</span></span>

Drop_Comparison.jpg



<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Wind</span></span>

Wind_Comparison.jpg







I would be remiss if I did not put the obligatory disclaimer in here though:

A guy that shoots out 308 barrels every year and practices all the time with it will almost assuredly beat the guy who has a Xmm whiz-bang super round but doesn't shoot it often enough to be really proficient with it.

Case in Point:

SubMOA on here was regularly placing in the top 5 or fighting for the top spot at many matches with a 308 when his competition were running 260's, 7-08's, 7 short mag family and 243's. He shoots extremely well, and when he moved to the 6x47L I knew that the competition had just gotten even tighter.
 
#40
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

Remember the recoil equation.

Spotting hits and staying on target is a priority for me and the 6's excel here, esp. for a skinny guy (after 100+ shots in a day) with a shoulder full of nuts and bolts!

I'm going to heavier guns and longer bbl's as I've seen no real match advantage to short and light.
 
#41
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

Since the trend in matches lately is to put noisy ass breaks on anything and everything down to 243's and 6x47L's I see little reason to worry about the recoil of a 308 for spotting hits. The only contingency is what you need to contend with, which are individual personal issues from your shoulders. And those are certainly valid, don't get me wrong. For those that don't have to deal with it, I really think we're slicing frog's hairs in terms of performance.

The OP would be just as well served with his 6XC and 6.5CM as he would a 7 xxx short action, std bolt face IMO. Spend the money on reloading components and practice time instead of parts, labor and support equipment for a new caliber.

 
#42
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently looked at this considering that I've been shooting the 6.5CM and 260's for a couple of years and more than several barrels. A good friend and extremely capable match shooter buddy has been rocking the 243 in comps for ages and it's an awesome competitor in our game. He shoots Mr. Tubb's DTAC coated in HBN @ 3080fps

I put data in there that I've seen first hand and all the values are using the (Litz) options in JBM all at 0'DA with identical HoB, Zero, etc etc inputs.

208 Amax @ 2750 from my 26" 30-06 (not a short action but the plots were already made)

162 Amax from a friend's 26" 7mm CM that has been SBN'd
140 Amax from my 22.5" 6.5CM
115 DTAC from another friend's 24" 243 Win

Note that where the 243 rocks everything in drop due to good BC and excellent speed the wind is where the money is made and the lowly 30-06 quickly separates itself from the rest of the pack.

My $0.02, is that the 6.5CM/260/6.5x47L or a 7CM/7GPC/7-08 is the ticket to balance the following considerations:

Solid trajectory for KD and UKD applications
Powder use/burn is appreciably the same across all the SA's in the size of a 308
Wind performance is negligibly different at 1000yd and for this game, most shots don't go over 800 let alone 1000yd. Very very very few break into the 4 digits.
Barrel life
Projectile and brass cost

Overall cost of ownership is

Powder use: Wash
Barrel life: 7's, then 6.5's, then the 6's
Bullet cost: Hornady 6/6.5's cost effectively the same, 7's are slightly more expensive to tie with the DTAC but they're all within $0.05/bullet of each other


So, it comes down to what you really need the rifle to do, any of them make great platforms to compete with but for someone that can't saddle the extra cost of a barrel installation every 12-18 months (for most competitive 243 shooters, some much more often than that) then the 6.5 family makes a lot of sense and the short action 7's do even better.

I <span style="font-style: italic">WAS</span> considering a 6mm of some flavor until I ran the numbers shown in the plots below only to realize that I"m not buying anything except more time in the shop barreling up 6mm barrels instead of shooting on a Saturday afternoon.


<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Drop</span></span>

Drop_Comparison.jpg



<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Wind</span></span>

Wind_Comparison.jpg







I would be remiss if I did not put the obligatory disclaimer in here though:

A guy that shoots out 308 barrels every year and practices all the time with it will almost assuredly beat the guy who has a Xmm whiz-bang super round but doesn't shoot it often enough to be really proficient with it.

Case in Point:

SubMOA on here was regularly placing in the top 5 or fighting for the top spot at many matches with a 308 when his competition were running 260's, 7-08's, 7 short mag family and 243's. He shoots extremely well, and when he moved to the 6x47L I knew that the competition had just gotten even tighter.</div></div>

This is an excellent post.
 
#43
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

Just my two cents worth. You can push the 115 DTAC's much faster than 3080 FPS with Reloder 17 in a 6XC. The 6 x 47 in a case slightly smaller than the 6XC seems to deliver the same velocity and accuracy as the 6XC. Even though the 6XC is a smaller case I get greater velocity than in a 243. In fact it equals the velocity in my 243 AI with RE 25. They're also very accurate, and it only takes me 18.5 MOA to 1000 yards. Windage is correspondingly small. There is also minimal recoil. I can stay on target at any distance and see my hits. I do use a 7.5 twist barrel that in my experience delivers greater accuracy with the 115 DTACs then in a 8 twist. If your velocity is limited to 3100 ft./s that would probably change your preferences otherwise the ballistics are hard to beat. Barrel life is about 2200 rounds. Barrel life in my 243 AI is about 900 rounds.

John
 
#46
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PatrickChewing</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you considered the 6 Creedmoor? </div></div>

Matter of fact, Im having a rifle built with this same cartridge.
 
#47
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SIE107</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My next long range gun is going to be a 22BR with the Berger 90VLD. I have been playing with the 90's in a 223 with very, very good results! </div></div>

I thought of trying this a few times but from what I've read 90's don't work all that good at higher velocities the 22br produces so shooters were switching to the 80's. Then there are the feeding issues with AI mags being that the cases are so short. I don't have the money or patience to try 22br and gave up on the idea.
 
#48
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds like a noob question, but I'm looking for input from <span style="font-weight: bold">precision comp shooters</span> on what's the best short action caliber currently for comp rifles. I've shot 308, 7-08, 65CM and 6XC.
Currently I'm running a 6XC most often, but am not 100% married to it, and my backup rifle is 6.5 Creedmoor

I want an accurate easy to load for with readily available components, feeding 100% reliably from AICS sized mags, and good barrel life.

Gotta decide pretty soon what my next tube is gonna be for 2013...
</div></div>

Steve,

What was your favorite so far and why?
 
#49
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

So far I think the 6.5CM...
I only ran the 7-08 in an old Douglas 22" barrel for a short time before it became my 65CM but am really leaning to a 26" 7-08 (or 7CM maybe).

The 6.5CM has been very consistent in matches for me and seems more intuitive to me (yeah, I know that's not too objective, but it's the only way I can explain it). I actually just stumbled into the 6XC on a trade, and while it's been good, I doubt I'll barrel it up again as a 6 after this season.

A seven at 2800 that feeds well out of SA AICS type mags is really what I'd like to end up with.

And bohem, I know no caliber shoots itself
wink.gif
 
#50
Re: Best overall SA 308 bolt face competition caliber?

I have always heard this.
If you want to buy factory ammo go 6.5 CM and if you plan to reload the 260 Rem. The balistics are basicly the same.

I am getting my TRG rebarreled into a 260.
 
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