Your Thoughts Needed, Prime Ammo 2020

[Sixfivesavage]

At a minimum, I need a 140 grain option, very preferably a berger hybrid.

 

[Rearden Steel]

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[Long Range 338]

Not be a naysayer, but I will naysay. Jim didn’t fulfill orders for a year. Regardless of the cause.

Your new appreciation means little, or anyone else who appeals to emotion by saying things “Jim did what he could”. Had Jim done what he could (Code for not trusting his partners who perceived an advantage), he would not have suffered the significant defeat that occurred. He would have prevailed without you knowing.

His commitment to his constituents isn’t in question in my response. I agree he communicates an impressive message. That said, his contract allowed for someone to assume something other than what was intended. An anecdotal phone conversation you had with Jim aside, you proceed to the argument of whether or not ‘Merica matters. It is clear that price is most important over where things might be manufactured.

Who among us is ready to spend money and not get what they spend their money for? I am, for 24 months. We need to consolidate resources against those who think their rights are more important than yours.

Interesting, I'll take your thoughts under advisement. I'm totally unaware of anybody that was not made whole either by receipt of product or refund... Are you saying that you are? Because if so, lets make sure it is made right. You speak as if Jim is a politician or representative somehow, he is simply a businessman.

Perhaps I have not communicated all of my thoughts in perfect eloquence. I'm not just here screaming "Merica" because I love this country and think it is the best in the world (of course I do). I consider many industries to be strategic and munitions is one of them that would be strategic in the defense of this nation were the worst to occur. There are others but that hardly matters in the context of this conversation.

I agree as well that my opinion is just that, mine and I am simply stating it. However I don't see other manufacturers/dealers here looking for insight to provide you higher quality options at reduced prices (whatever that starting price may be). If bottom dollar is what you are looking for Prime is not going to be your first option regardless of any concessions being made. We have a player in the industry looking to support what we do and asking for a commitment level that allows them to better service us.

The past is in the past and can't be changed, if you aren't willing to "buy in" that is your prerogative as a consumer. Many of us are willing to move forward supporting Prime with full faith that orders will be fulfilled. Watching the gun industry implode financially over the last few years does give me pause on how to best support the companies I believe in.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Think bigger. Long term. The problems faced are a symptom.

 

[Rearden Steel]

.

 

[Nik H]

There was a lot of wording in the statement from Jim, and I want to make sure I understand the intent of the communication.

In summary:

1. Keeping pricing low is affected by the cost of inventory and production capacity.

2. Prime is looking at crowd funding and group buys or "pre-orders" to more accurately forecast demand and then they are able to right size production, procurement, and reduce carrying costs.

3. The benefit of crowdfunding through a group buy, and listing the above calibers is a better cost to those who purchase in this way, they can also plan purchases and you basically have a co-op style ammo group for an undetermined portion of Prime's business. Buyers have availability and cost savings for planning ahead.

Is that basically what is being proposed to us?

If so, I think that is a great idea because we are a niche market. Will they own this segment of the business? No, but serve a dedicated and loyal customer base, absolutley. What is the plan to get a group buy rolling? Do they need help planning?

I would be interested especially if we see some 300 NM and 338 LM

 

[Winny94]

Why is Prime direct to consumer only? Why not add a dealer/wholesale model so consumers can take advantage of larger companies fullfillment efficiencies? (Particularly in terms of shipping costs?) Not to mention the brand exposure. Outside of our little world, the Prime brand still has comparatively little market penetration.

 

[308pirate]

No, I am saying I put a value on my time. My free time is more valued than my work time.

if your isn’t your doing something wrong.

I burn a few barrels a year, shoot a lot of matches, Hunt, ski, bla bla bla.. yep I reload, but it cannibalizes other hobbies, life duties etc.

My time is worth something, sounds like your’s isn’t

You don't know shit about me or anyone else here. You would do well to stop assuming you do.

 

[brianf]

from reading the posts i think it boils down to:

risk analysis
price compared to reloading (if quality is similar)
lead time
price compared to current products (readily available) in the market currently

crowdfunding is different than a group buy
group buy is different than working capital
they are all forms of $, but each one has its own risks and rewards on the "investor" and business owner side of the equation

investment risk is usually associated with stability of the business and projected ROI.
ROI in this case:

TIMELY delivery of a SUPERIOR PRODUCT compared to other products currently sold at a competitive price if not better by some undetermined margin.



when a business goes to the bank for investment (or investment firm) they want to see a plan with associated $ line by line...calculating the ROI. no one hands out money for free or because "he's a nice guy"...whats in it for me. our ROI is ammo.

i think Prime has to call its suppliers and get some quotes on materials, throw it in a spread sheet and put some numbers on the thread as a starting point.

if the starting point looks ok for the group, then we all start checking our wallets.

its useless to speak about investment if i dont know how much the shares/ammo are going to cost up front.

although its been said that all his eggs are not in one basket (im hoping that correct for his longevity), the investors have no way of knowing the actual truth.

i dont plan on seeing the companies financials but with the admission that the industry is volatile what is my guarantee that my investment/group $ are going toward my ammo not the latest order for another customer.

are there performance criteria (not actually shooting) but delivery dates, time from component to shipment.

i group buy/invest $1000 for ammo to be used in a match in march.
the ammo doesnt show up because the market for brass went up

is Prime going to call me and say he needs $100 more because of components?
will he eat the difference?
Will Prime just not ship for a extra month waiting for the price of brass to drop, causing me to buy other ammo at that time?


long winded (and i could be totally off base and missed it as i often do) what is the real objective of Prime and what guarantees do the customers have.

as we have seen before (more than a few threads) group buys on something bigger than a bipod is usually a disaster

thanks
brian

 

[kortik]

Why is Prime direct to consumer only? Why not add a dealer/wholesale model so consumers can take advantage of larger companies fullfillment efficiencies? (Particularly in terms of shipping costs?) Not to mention the brand exposure. Outside of our little world, the Prime brand still has comparatively little market penetration.

Using dealers and destributors artificially inflates the price of the goods, as these third parties need to have their margin. It becomes obvious with a bit of practical experience. Direct sales (DTC) model is better for both relatively small size companies and their customers.

 

[Winny94]

No, I am saying I put a value on my time. My free time is more valued than my work time.

if your isn’t your doing something wrong.

I burn a few barrels a year, shoot a lot of matches, Hunt, ski, bla bla bla.. yep I reload, but it cannibalizes other hobbies, life duties etc.

My time is worth something, sounds like your’s isn’t

The problem with your logic is you assume everyone has the same attitude you do about reloading. I personally hate skiing and very much enjoy reloading. Skiing canibilizes my other hobbies like reloading and hunting.
Different strokes for different folks

 

[Winny94]

Using dealers and destributors artificially inflates the price of the goods, as these third parties need to have their margin. It becomes obvious with a bit of practical experience. Direct sales (DTC) model is better for both relatively small size companies and their customers.

Better how? Price? Maybe. Sustainability ? Longevity? Consistency? Probably not.
And why would it artificially raise price? The hit in profit (margin), may be able to be eaten by prime in exchange for streamlined processes and volume.
Retailers will absolutely sell commodities at 10%-20% margin if that product has other beneifts (driving traffic to the site, market penetration/growth, etc)

 

[kortik]

Better how? Price? Maybe. Sustainability ? Longevity? Consistency? Probably not.
And why would it artificially raise price? The hit in profit (margin), may be able to be eaten by prime in exchange for streamlined processes and volume.
Retailers will absolutely sell commodities at 10%-20% margin if that product has other beneifts (driving traffic to the site, market penetration/growth, etc)

I'm not aware of any retailers interested in selling at 10% margin, unless they decide to dump the product in favor of something else. Just my personal experience...

Here is the interesting observation - I have two very, very known brands (on the national scale) dealers. With all their brand recognition in the market place, they sell a very tiny percentage of my product output. My own brand is really tiny in comparision to these outfits, but I sell at least 35 times more than both of them combined. So, my $10 calculator tells me all I need to know and what I have to do next - go 100% DTC. So, I perfectly understand PRIME situation and their desire to sell directly.

 

[Nik H]

edited to add: glad I didn't put down my actual earnings.. lol..you guys are rough.

LMAO....Go be poor somewhere else. I’ll shut up about my effective hourly rate.

I tend to agree about reloading being anything but cheaper with the exception of large calibers. I built a spreadsheet that tracked a variety of parameters and computed the break even based on your annual round count. I didn’t include an hourly rate for time spent as it is a HOBBY. I don’t track my “lost wages” for shooting or cleaning or drive time to the range.

I find that people that reload are into reloading. I am thankful that companies like PRIME are there to give the rest of us excellent ammo.

 

[Steel head]

I’m invested in reloading and even though I don’t really enjoy it I do like the results.

It’s the reason I buy very little factory ammo.

Components I’d definitely buy.

 

[Diver160651]

LMAO....Go be poor somewhere else. I’ll shut up about my effective hourly rate.

I tend to agree about reloading being anything but cheaper with the exception of large calibers. I built a spreadsheet that tracked a variety of parameters and computed the break even based on your annual round count. I didn’t include an hourly rate for time spent as it is a HOBBY. I don’t track my “lost wages” for shooting or cleaning or drive time to the range.

I find that people that reload are into reloading. I am thankful that companies like PRIME are there to give the rest of us excellent ammo.

Nik I agree with you, what I am pointing out is that while I do reload and do shoot thousands of rounds a year, it comes at a much greater cost than most people will acknowledge.

Be it time and energy that could be spent figuring out a new work skill, investing some of the capital in something that will return higher rate of $$.. shooting more or practicing other hobbies the list is long for many people (not all).

I have zero issue or hard time understanding those that reload for the ultimate in gun match, or as a passion, that was not part of my discussion, nor was it meant to take anything away from those people.

Prime is looking for a way to create or recapture a market segment that has changed. No longer are the bigger manufacturers blind to the Long Range Precision Market like they where 5 years ago. @Dthomas3523 and I as well as a few others bought high end factory 6mm by the cases a few months ago, with Lapua small primer brass and Berger 105s for about the price of just the components. Later, DT sold the brass and I ended up being even cheaper..

If Prime is going to be profitable, they need to be in a space that is not fully occupied by the big boys..

This really is about how Prime can fit in, thrive and maybe be disruptive in the market place again, not about one’s ego.@308pirate, you are correct, I have no idea who you are, but shoot and have shot with more than a few Hide guys. Come out to our team UKD match next weekend. Even though we are at capacity, I’ll let you shoot the match for free and you can shoot as a solo (we have been sold out for almost 4 months). Details are in the “SH Local Match” section, but you can pm me for better details. You’ll meet a few really friendly Hide guys and learn more about me; it is probably better idea than posting things like “stupid” and such.. it’s a small world, no need to make enemies over nothing pointed at you.

 

[Mute]

Selling direct isn't a bad approach, but logistics is going to be the big issue. Shipping and handling will probably become the biggest manpower drain and also why distributors exist. I hope they find a solution that will be profitable for them and allow the company to continue to grow.

 

[Aaron47pb]

If Prime offered a Dasher load (now that there is brass) that consistently had single digit SDs, I’d buy barrel’s worth at a time.

 

[Spblademaker]

So much tension. I just want my sticker.

 

[Jack Master]

We need to know a little more information @lowlight We need a ballpark to understand the situation better.
What are the waiting times Jim is asking for? 3 weeks? 3 Months? 8 months? (understood its dependent on the ammunition)
Will this be at a lower cost than what is on the current website? (same components assumed)
How big of an Order does Jim need? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000 rounds?
This can help us understand what is at play with "Group Buy"

 

[Jack Master]

Subscription based!
Simply put, Jim Needs our money to make ammunition WE want at a cheaper cost.
I reload too, but if I can order reliable factory ammo for my competition rifle, I can focus on reloading for my other rifles.

I think a Subscription base would be a great Idea. Think "Battle Box" Idea. Receiving orders on a quarterly basses gives Jim 3 months to start delivery. (not sure if this is enough, I'm just starting somewhere) I would say quarterly to reduce the shipping expenses rather than Monthly.

Sign up to receive 1000 rounds (minimum) of XXX ammunition this year. (predetermined load by crowd sourcing polls)

• Jan 1 pay for first installment
• April 1 - Receive first 250 rds and pay for next installment
• July 1st - Receive 2nd 250 rds & pay for Next
• Oct 1st - Receive 3rd 250 rds & pay for Next
• Jan 1st - Receive 4th 250 rds & pay for Next (if you want to continue)

First Year Agreement - This is a First year agreement so Jim knows he sold 1000 rounds to each subscriber. The 2nd year is on a quarterly basis, you pay for an order & you get your ammo 3 months later. You can sign up anytime, but its a 4 payment minimum for the first year.
Minimum Subscribers - Now set a minimum number of participants to get a caliber/load started - 100 subscribed of 1000 rounds gets it kicked off (100,000 round order) and when the subscription drops to below a set number the ordering is terminated and the final rounds are sent out until at-least 100 people are signed up with a first year agreement again.

If you want more that 1000 rounds is great, but 1000 would be a minimum. Plus this gets you through 3 matches a year with zeroing and a little practice.

This way my wife sees a lower payment rather than one big one. I might be able to hide this!

Jay McLean lash

 

[want2learn]

Jack Master, that sounds like a workable/favorable scenario.

Just wanted to note however that in California, if i understanding correctly, one would have to pay for a background check after each and every quarter shipment. I know it's likely not a problem in much of the rest of the country but just wanted to mention it.

 

[kortik]

Jack Master, your suggestion appears to be a simple and straightforward way to execute nearly perfect DTC. It should also allow to keep production costs at reasonable level and result in competitive prices. For the business itself, it should certainly help to have somewhat predictable cash flow.

 

[Lowlight]

I know Jim is watching this and I like the idea of metering it out over time, serves a few purposes

I know Prime played with the idea of a subscription service, not sure how that would be accepted in the short term but long run it would probably work out okay, you'd just have to start out with less in the beginning. A subscription for ammo would not be like a Dollar Shave Club, when you are paying a tiny subscription it's not a big deal, when a $250 recurring payment every month for a case or more of ammo, you have a lot more chances of months being tight or not working out in the long run.

That said, a 1000 round subscription does see feasible

 

[Jack Master]

@lowlight
I agree it would be light on the start of the subscription for Jim, Maybe this is where a SH true group buy can help things get started now. (500 round minimum pay Jan 1st and receive ammo in March) Putting a subscription and this together might get things running.

I also agree this would not be the same as a dollar shave club with a couple bucks a month, But the payments would be quarterly to make them easier rather than every month. Plus, if you can receive ammo around the same time you'er paying it would feel like you get something for your payment. Or have the option to Pay 100% upfront. Some people might like that for the savings.

The subscription idea could be expandable as well. Once Jim gets a couple calibers on subscriptions new subscribers would be able to choose 2 calibers to make up the 1000 rounds. (500 6.5 creed and 500 223) One caliber shows up for the first 2 shipments and the other for the 2nd 2 shipments.

I think the number of subscribers will come down to the savings achieved by doing it. Save 10%... not sure that works. More savings = more subscribers.

Just spit balling Ideas. I hope it helps.

 

[264win]

I would like to see something like this get going. For myself and many others, bullet choice would be critical. A Berger or similar bullet that is suitable for all uses, not just targets would be a big selling point.

 

[Lowlight]

Hard to say where his margins are, as I don't see it making big profits anymore.

6 years ago prices were climbing, a box of match 260 was $52 a box at Copper Creek and AB/Berger. Today it has leveled off to around $32 a box. So maybe if we are paying over $40 you can say, 25% discount, but with Hornady dropping prices and things moving to follow them, paying $25 a box when it's $19 at dealer cost is not too easy nor will the margins be very good.

 

[OldSalty]

Subscription based!
Simply put, Jim Needs our money to make ammunition WE want at a cheaper cost.
I reload too, but if I can order reliable factory ammo for my competition rifle, I can focus on reloading for my other rifles.

I think a Subscription base would be a great Idea. Think "Battle Box" Idea. Receiving orders on a quarterly basses gives Jim 3 months to start delivery. (not sure if this is enough, I'm just starting somewhere) I would say quarterly to reduce the shipping expenses rather than Monthly.

Sign up to receive 1000 rounds (minimum) of XXX ammunition this year. (predetermined load by crowd sourcing polls)

• Jan 1 pay for first installment
• April 1 - Receive first 250 rds and pay for next installment
• July 1st - Receive 2nd 250 rds & pay for Next
• Oct 1st - Receive 3rd 250 rds & pay for Next
• Jan 1st - Receive 4th 250 rds & pay for Next (if you want to continue)

First Year Agreement - This is a First year agreement so Jim knows he sold 1000 rounds to each subscriber. The 2nd year is on a quarterly basis, you pay for an order & you get your ammo 3 months later. You can sign up anytime, but its a 4 payment minimum for the first year.
Minimum Subscribers - Now set a minimum number of participants to get a caliber/load started - 100 subscribed of 1000 rounds gets it kicked off (100,000 round order) and when the subscription drops to below a set number the ordering is terminated and the final rounds are sent out until at-least 100 people are signed up with a first year agreement again.

If you want more that 1000 rounds is great, but 1000 would be a minimum. Plus this gets you through 3 matches a year with zeroing and a little practice.

This way my wife sees a lower payment rather than one big one. I might be able to hide this!

Jay McLean lash

This is similar to my thoughts as well. However, one issue with the above is supply chain predictability and component price fluctuations.

If Jim let the base know what rounds are available and the cost then the base could opt in with a subscription which would front some of the initial purchasing cost and provide a steady stream of cash flow for the duration of the run. If enough people subscribe the run moves forward.

I believe the rest would align with what you have posted.

 

[Luvman]

I'm with @Jack Master I like the idea of a subscription service.

Let's say you sign up for a 1K rds subscription shipped 200rds case at a time. This gets you a price break. You get your first case ASAP and can schedule the next case some time later. The ship date can be adjusted based on need. That way if you're not shooting much you can push the delivery out. Within reason. And if needed sooner just log on and click the ship next case now button.

Cancellation before the full 1Krds subscription would result in a penalty of some sort. Maybe having to pay whatever the price break was.

Example:

Normal case price is $300 delivered
Subscription price is $250 delivered
Cancel after 1 case $50 fee, after 2 cases $100 fee, etc etc. Buy the full 5 cases save $250.

Just thinking out loud.....

 

[Lowlight]

I think that can work

Jim was talking about a Shoot-scription prior to the RUAG stuff, this might be a way to map that out

 

[spife7980]

Wouldn't the shipping costs of 4 independent shipments through out the year eat up any savings making buying in bulk the more attractive pricing option?

Obviously the math is skewed because I dont know what it would be in the future and with the new prospective program but...
1 case of 6.5 creed is 250 plus shipping makes it 270. x4 times per year makes it 1080.
4 cases of 6.5 creed is 1000 plus shipping makes it 1050.

Thats 30 bucks more to do quarterly than one time. 30/4=7.50 per quarter. The quarterly cases would have to be priced at 250-7.25=242.75 each to break even with a one time purchase. Would that amount of discount really drive that much more business?

I thought subscription based stuff only pays more when people keep paying the subscription without making use of the product.

 

[Jack Master]

Wouldn't the shipping costs on 4 independent shipments through out the year eat up any savings making just buying in bulk the more attractive pricing option?

Bulk IS a better deal. But a lot of fellas can't fork out the money for 1000 precision rounds tomorrow. If it were over a year time frame more could sign up for it, And Jim knows the money is coming.

 

[Tunnuh]

A case at a time maybe 2 is doable for me financially.

 

[TXBO]

Using dealers and destributors artificially inflates the price of the goods, as these third parties need to have their margin. It becomes obvious with a bit of practical experience. Direct sales (DTC) model is better for both relatively small size companies and their customers.

That's not true if the manufacturer sux at marketing and distribution. Turning the task over to an expert that will pay in bulk can improve cash flow, create efficiencies and transfer the risk and cost of inventory.

 

[Luvman]

Wouldn't the shipping costs of 4 independent shipments through out the year eat up any savings making buying in bulk the more attractive pricing option?

Obviously the math is skewed because I dont know what it would be in the future and with the new prospective program but...
1 case of 6.5 creed is 250 plus shipping makes it 270. x4 times per year makes it 1080.
4 cases of 6.5 creed is 1000 plus shipping makes it 1050.

Thats 30 bucks more to do quarterly than one time. 30/4=7.50 per quarter. The quarterly cases would have to be priced at 250-7.25=242.75 each to break even with a one time purchase. Would that amount of discount really drive that much more business?

I thought subscription based stuff only pays more when people keep paying the subscription without making use of the product.

I was just throwing numbers at the wall. Not sure where Prime’s pricing would land. I’m buying .308 FGMM for a about $200 delivered and about $240 for FGMM Berger. Berger ammo is about $280/200 delivered with Lapua brass

If I could buy Prime with better brass for about the same price or a little more I’d happily pay a little more.

I think the subscription service would give Prime a better idea to forecast what sales will be.

And to throw more shit at the wall. Sending your brass back for a discount would appeal to me. I’m sure Prime could have their own head stamp done to help police this.

Hell I’d just buy the ammo loaded in once fired brass if it shot good. Think black hills blue box vs. red box.

 

[candyx]

We can save a ton in shipping if Lowlight personally delivers the ammo to the SH Members and a great way for him to meet the members here, kill two birds with one stone sort of speak.

 

[kortik]

Thaat's not true if the manufacturer sux at marketing and distribution. Turning the task over to an expert that will pay in bulk can improve cash flow, create efficiencies and transfer the risk and cost of inventory.

I run my business for 10 years and know all about it. If it is not true for your business, it simply means we run our businesses in a different manner. And you know absolutely nothing about my business. So, I need your expert like dog needs a fifth leg.

 

[SonicBurlap]

I'd love to buy cases of PRIME but I've got to support the family, the wife, the house, the car,. and then there is that rifle building addiction, ... If purchases of boxes of PRIME were available in different quantities, sort of in increments like we buy our Black Rifle Coffee Company Java, even as a subscription I bet you might have a winning concept. PRIME would reach and sell way more than by just selling to those who can afford to order cases of that wonderful stuff. Sort of like a "More Bang for the Buck" of the Month Club. My guess is best sellers would be 6.5 Creedmoor, 6 Creedmoor, 6.5 PRC, .308, .300WM, .338 LM. You could even have a membership fee of somewhere under $40.00 which would give you the option of buying cases when the annual bonus comes in, or tax time rolls around and Uncle Sam coughs up the over charge if there is any.

 

[W54/XM-388]

One other option might be to load ammunition that others are not.
Such as stuff with Warner Flatlines or other such higher profit specialty rounds where you will not feel as much price pressure from other commercial manufacturers.

 

[TXBO]

I run my business for 10 years and know all about it. If it is not true for your business, it simply means we run our businesses in a different manner. And you know absolutely nothing about my business. So, I need your expert like dog needs a fifth leg.

Congratulations.
1) Like I stated, you probably don't suck at marketing and distribution.
2) You probably aren't under capitalized. Prime could use the capital spent on marketing and distribution to build the manufacturing infrastructure.

LOL. Got your edit. I'm giving suggestions for Prime. I don't give a shit about helping your business.

 

[lash]

Bulk IS a better deal. But a lot of fellas can't fork out the money for 1000 precision rounds tomorrow. If it were over a year time frame more could sign up for it, And Jim knows the money is coming.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this as I’m one of those that has to go be poor,...well here as it turns out.

 

[kortik]

I'd love to buy cases of PRIME but I've got to support the family, the wife, the house, the car,. and then there is that rifle building addiction, ... If purchases of boxes of PRIME were available in different quantities, sort of in increments like we buy our Black Rifle Coffee Company Java, even as a subscription I bet you might have a winning concept. PRIME would reach and sell way more than by just selling to those who can afford to order cases of that wonderful stuff. Sort of like a "More Bang for the Buck" of the Month Club. My guess is best sellers would be 6.5 Creedmoor, 6 Creedmoor, 6.5 PRC, .308, .300WM, .338 LM. You could even have a membership fee of somewhere under $40.00 which would give you the option of buying cases when the annual bonus comes in, or tax time rolls around and Uncle Sam coughs up the over charge if there is any.

Perfectly understandable. I feel PRIME should first look in Jack Master idea and also have "Overruns" as an option, when/if available, for guys who may want to have more flexibility. There is no way to make everybody perfectly happy.

 

[lash]

Perfectly understandable. I feel PRIME should first look in Jack Master idea and also have "Overruns" as an option, when/if available, for guys who may want to have more flexibility. There is no way to make everybody perfectly happy.

There is never a way to make everybody perfectly happy.

 

[antithesis]

Supply chain has come up several times. Get a bunch of shooters on the line for a subscription and then powder or bullets dry up for a few months. People want to throw down when some widget gets back-ordered or their Internet goes dark for a few hours. Guessing it is only going to take 1 missed delivery for people to go sour on a +$1k per year subscription.

Not saying it won't work, but I think it is going to require advanced purchase of the components before the subscription is sold.

 

[Nik H]

There is never a way to make everybody perfectly happy.

Never....

I am open to looking at the plan but as someone who has absolutely zero interest in reloading, I approach this cautiously. Even though I don't reload, I have a labradar that I use to characterize all of the factory ammo I use. I test offerings to see how bullet weight and the type of bullet work. Favorites then get characterized under different temperatures as the year goes by. This lets me know how consistent the factory ammo is over temperature and LOT#.

The funny thing is that no one manufacturer has a lock on "the best". I have a couple of favorites depending on the caliber that shoot consistently out of my AT. I find that there are always a couple of choices per caliber. Sometimes PRIME is one of the favorites and sometimes it isn't. Shooting metal plates is not shooting benchrest so the complete voodoo that some do escapes me. Consistency and reasonable SDs are good enough to hit plates. Spend some time with the statistical analyses software out there and it is no surprise.

Not sure how PRIME can offer everyone's favorite at a competitive price. I go through what I do because it is nice to find bargains out there that lower your monthly expenditure. The American gunner 140 grain 6.5 Creedmoor is an example. For a lot of what I do, it is plenty good and plenty cheap. Is it as good as the Berger 130 or the new or old PRIME 130? No it isn't but sometimes good enough is good enough.

I would think that the more you shoot, the more important the economic side of it is. Compared to many of you, I don't shoot that much. If I shoot 2500 rounds of centerfire, that is a good year for me. Between job and family, that is all I can do. I don't do more than one or two local matches per year and those are hard to find in New England but getting better. Would I be willing to sign up for 1,000 round commitment...no so sure. If I shot 5,000 rounds a year, then different story. Now that I purchased an AXMC, I am starting the painful process of characterizing 338 LM and soon 300 NM...that is my interest in an offering as this stuff is pricey and reloading begins to actually makes economic sense.

I look forward to seeing where it goes.

 

[jcam]

Thank you Jim and Frank for coming up with a proposal like this. Looking forward with great interest to see how this pans out.

 

[Diver160651]

Just a thought.... But I always have bad ones...

I work with a lot of start-ups, most do not ever come out in the light on their own power. Some might have 10-20 years of VC investing and still no product offerings. With that said, some people might be risk adverse, I am. To mitigate that, would it make more sense to pay a "club fee" maybe something people would be willing to risk rather than pre-paying in full?

Lets say I paid $50 year to Join Prime; with that, I was able to order and pay "when shipped" for my case/s of ammo or whatever and I enjoyed a discount. If I didn't pay within in X days of the ammo was ready, I'd loose my deposit and membership for that year. Primes' cost would be offset.

In the current climate, I think it would be hard for people to pre-pay for ammo and hope the system stays together..

Part of the allure for me of not reloading everything, is I can increase my annual turns.. Basically, I don't have to have 32lbs of H4350, 16lbs of Varget and H1000 (plus a ton of other powders) sitting, plus 10-20K in primers because the velocity of the supply stream gets so spotty. Also I can reduce some of the $40 per ship of hazmat fees. Then there is "the who knows" how much brass between loaded, prepped, partially prepped and just shot, waiting for the reload stream.... If, I have 10x tied up in protecting my reloading supply stream, but might be able to cut that by 2/3rds by putting less than that the delta into a solid factory supply stream, it might worth shifting more to factory.... even if I do not account for my time in the reloading picture.

 

[kortik]

Just a thought.... But I always have bad ones...

I work with a lot of start-ups, most do not ever come out in the light on their own power. Some might have 10-20 years of VC investing and still no product offerings. With that said, some people might be risk adverse, I am. To mitigate that, would it make more sense to pay a "club fee" maybe something people would be willing to risk rather than pre-paying in full?

Lets say I paid $50 year to Join Prime; with that, I was able to order and pay "when shipped" for my case/s of ammo or whatever and I enjoyed a discount. If I didn't pay within in X days of the ammo was ready, I'd loose my deposit and membership for that year. Primes' cost would be offset.

In the current climate, I think it would be hard for people to pre-pay for ammo and hope the system stays together..

Part of the allure for me of not reloading everything, is I can increase my annual turns.. Basically, I don't have to have 32lbs of H4350, 16lbs of Varget and H1000 (plus a ton of other powders) sitting, plus 10-20K in primers because the velocity of the supply stream gets so spotty. Also I can reduce some of the $40 per ship of hazmat fees. Then there is "the who knows" how much brass between loaded, prepped, partially prepped and just shot, waiting for the reload stream.... If, I have 10x tied up in protecting my reloading supply stream, but might be able to cut that by 2/3rds by putting less than that the delta into a solid factory supply stream, it might worth shifting more to factory.... even if I do not account for my time in the reloading picture.

If, lets say, I'm a PRIME, $50 will not do a lot for me. Prime need certain cash flow to run the business, survive and hopefully, expand and prosper.

While your idea is probably looks very reasonable for you as a customer, I think it is a little bit one sided in favor of the customer and does not address manufacturer's objectives.

Just my opinion as a manufacturer.

 

[seansmd]

I will never reload (famous last words) and would embrace this.

 

[Milf Dots]

If, lets say, I'm a PRIME, $50 will not do a lot for me. Prime need certain cash flow to run the business, survive and hopefully, expand and prosper.

While your idea is probably looks very reasonable for you as a customer, I think it is a little bit one sided in favor of the customer and does not address manufacturer's objectives.

Just my opinion as a manufacturer.

Is Prime now a manufacturer of ammo, or still a reseller? I asked someone else a couple of days ago, but perhaps he didn't have the latest information. If Jim/Prime invested in loading machinery, that's a great move.