Your Thoughts Needed, Prime Ammo 2020
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.22lr PRS type shooting is blowing up. $.20-.25/round for high end and a sub-market for overruns/QC rejected from the top down at a descending scale based on quality. Same ammo but as it falls down the QC ladder the cheaper it becomes. As well as some lower cost "match grade" first quality to fill the middle end.
I’d love to see Prime at just above competitive prices when compared to reloading. Everyone’s time spent above ground, regardless of their love or hate of reloading, is worth a certain dollar value. That being said, businesses obviously have to turn a profit. I’d be willing to support prime and never reload if it was a reasonable percentage over what it would cost to do in the garage.
The “Amazon Prime” style would be something I’d invest in because I shoot once a week, if not twice (on good weeks) with anywhere from 40-100rds of LR ammo expended each trip. Full disclosure, I’m leaving the country for a few years so my shooting will be on a brief pause, but regardless, the LR industry is something I’m very fond of and want to see thrive despite being unable to (continue to) support for a few years.
Time is money and time is an irreplaceable commodity, regardless of who you are or what your salary is.
The “Amazon Prime” style would be something I’d invest in because I shoot once a week, if not twice (on good weeks) with anywhere from 40-100rds of LR ammo expended each trip. Full disclosure, I’m leaving the country for a few years so my shooting will be on a brief pause, but regardless, the LR industry is something I’m very fond of and want to see thrive despite being unable to (continue to) support for a few years.
Time is money and time is an irreplaceable commodity, regardless of who you are or what your salary is.
Interesting camps out there.
I view my reloading investment as a one time shot, and quit worrying about when I "break even". Everything depreciates and wears out and needs replaced or upgraded.
Buying a car/truck to drive where I need to go, or, following the logic here - rely on public transit, Uber and Lyft? Puts the $1300+ a month in payments, insurance, fuel, and, projected maintenance towards having someone drive me and the rest in my pocket. Yeah....No. I buy a vehicle.
I would not count the time to make said ammo either unless you work in the industry making ammo. I am a mechanic, and when I work on my vehicles, or someone else's on MY TIME, then I factor in the $75 an hour I bill out based on flat rate. Otherwise it's MY TIME to do with as I please, be it reloading, or sitting on the couch watching the babysitter.
Brass is almost another one time buy. Powder, primers and projectiles are the consumables. I am on my 4th loading of 6.5 PRC (400 cases) and 6 or so on 6.5 Grendel (2000 cases). All Hornady brass, and according to projections I should get another 4-5 out of my PRC, and 8 on the Grendel...loading sensible rounds, not HP rounds that are chewing up the case head, and flattening/cratering primers.
IIRC I am around $.50 per to reload my PRC, and $.40 for the Grendels. Cost of supplies only, and that is calculating out the life of the brass @ $.20 per shot starting with factory loaded ammo cost, not the virgin brass that half of it was. Again reloading equipment is no different than a kitchen, house, car, and so on.
Now if Prime offered to "Credit" me back for fired brass and then sell "Factory" loads in Once fired brass at a reduced rate....then we might get somewhere. Or as others have suggested, send the brass back to be loaded and bought back at a significant reduction since the brass no longer costs $1.00 per. Then we just get into the liability standpoint of when the brass has been fired past it's life expectancy from a business standpoint. Gonna be one heck of a liability waiver document made up and signed, and even then there is always a way.
Prime may say "No more than 3 loading's" when the guy running the press at home may say "Hell, I'll push it until I see the case head separation start somewhere around 8 loading's, and if I get a Kaboom, well It's my own damn fault and glad I wore the eye protection that day." But if Prime reloads the ammo, someone is gonna sue the shit out of them for blowing up their $8k rifle&scope and scarring them for life both physically and emotionally because the brass was wore out. Nevermind it was a new barrel and short throat.
Another option for the crowdfund - a shooter buys in at $3k. Said shooter now has a $3k credit with Prime so when the ammo that they want becomes available, they can buy based on that credit as much or as little as they want, and whatever caliber they want. If they put up their $3k and the flavor of the month in the safe was a 6creed, and 4 months later they shift gears and go .375 because shooting less than 800 yards is no fun anymore, they are not stuck with the 6creed they were shooting way back when.
Pre buying 5 cases of 6.5C/G/P and waiting....waiting....waiting...waiting because well, damn, we did not expect to have the pre buy order hit 20k cases of 6.5C, now we have serious supply issues, and time issues since our machining is tied up making the damn 6.5C when the G and P guys are stuck in the background for months, and now have to go out and buy ammo, or load up at home to get them through the season, with their $3k tied up already in ammo that is back ordered due to demand.
We've passed instant gratification and hit the WTF stage at April when the order was placed in January, and told it could be as late as June now due to the demand. Like waiting all year (literally 1 year) for RL26 to show up, and actually find it on MY TIME. Then some dickhead politician manages to get a law passed during the wait and now the 5 cases of ammo I ordered can no longer be shipped to me, and shipping to a FFL is a nightmare of paperwork because they are not an "Authorized Distributor" as stated in the law.
Excess inventory that won't sell, is it cost effective to pull down the loaded ammo, then sell off the powder, primed brass, and Blem projectiles as components?
I view my reloading investment as a one time shot, and quit worrying about when I "break even". Everything depreciates and wears out and needs replaced or upgraded.
Buying a car/truck to drive where I need to go, or, following the logic here - rely on public transit, Uber and Lyft? Puts the $1300+ a month in payments, insurance, fuel, and, projected maintenance towards having someone drive me and the rest in my pocket. Yeah....No. I buy a vehicle.
I would not count the time to make said ammo either unless you work in the industry making ammo. I am a mechanic, and when I work on my vehicles, or someone else's on MY TIME, then I factor in the $75 an hour I bill out based on flat rate. Otherwise it's MY TIME to do with as I please, be it reloading, or sitting on the couch watching the babysitter.
Brass is almost another one time buy. Powder, primers and projectiles are the consumables. I am on my 4th loading of 6.5 PRC (400 cases) and 6 or so on 6.5 Grendel (2000 cases). All Hornady brass, and according to projections I should get another 4-5 out of my PRC, and 8 on the Grendel...loading sensible rounds, not HP rounds that are chewing up the case head, and flattening/cratering primers.
IIRC I am around $.50 per to reload my PRC, and $.40 for the Grendels. Cost of supplies only, and that is calculating out the life of the brass @ $.20 per shot starting with factory loaded ammo cost, not the virgin brass that half of it was. Again reloading equipment is no different than a kitchen, house, car, and so on.
Now if Prime offered to "Credit" me back for fired brass and then sell "Factory" loads in Once fired brass at a reduced rate....then we might get somewhere. Or as others have suggested, send the brass back to be loaded and bought back at a significant reduction since the brass no longer costs $1.00 per. Then we just get into the liability standpoint of when the brass has been fired past it's life expectancy from a business standpoint. Gonna be one heck of a liability waiver document made up and signed, and even then there is always a way.
Prime may say "No more than 3 loading's" when the guy running the press at home may say "Hell, I'll push it until I see the case head separation start somewhere around 8 loading's, and if I get a Kaboom, well It's my own damn fault and glad I wore the eye protection that day." But if Prime reloads the ammo, someone is gonna sue the shit out of them for blowing up their $8k rifle&scope and scarring them for life both physically and emotionally because the brass was wore out. Nevermind it was a new barrel and short throat.
Another option for the crowdfund - a shooter buys in at $3k. Said shooter now has a $3k credit with Prime so when the ammo that they want becomes available, they can buy based on that credit as much or as little as they want, and whatever caliber they want. If they put up their $3k and the flavor of the month in the safe was a 6creed, and 4 months later they shift gears and go .375 because shooting less than 800 yards is no fun anymore, they are not stuck with the 6creed they were shooting way back when.
Pre buying 5 cases of 6.5C/G/P and waiting....waiting....waiting...waiting because well, damn, we did not expect to have the pre buy order hit 20k cases of 6.5C, now we have serious supply issues, and time issues since our machining is tied up making the damn 6.5C when the G and P guys are stuck in the background for months, and now have to go out and buy ammo, or load up at home to get them through the season, with their $3k tied up already in ammo that is back ordered due to demand.
We've passed instant gratification and hit the WTF stage at April when the order was placed in January, and told it could be as late as June now due to the demand. Like waiting all year (literally 1 year) for RL26 to show up, and actually find it on MY TIME. Then some dickhead politician manages to get a law passed during the wait and now the 5 cases of ammo I ordered can no longer be shipped to me, and shipping to a FFL is a nightmare of paperwork because they are not an "Authorized Distributor" as stated in the law.
Excess inventory that won't sell, is it cost effective to pull down the loaded ammo, then sell off the powder, primed brass, and Blem projectiles as components?
I just ordered a couple of boxes of 6CM to try. I paid $1.75/rd shipped. If Prime wants me to order 1k rounds at a time they will need a more compelling price than $1.55/rd 200rd case. Also, Prime's site doesn't match Jim's message, 200rd cases isn't a large consumer preorder. I'll buy a year supply of anything for the right price, 200rd is barely scratching the surface.
I mapped the cost of factory ammo vs reloading cost once, and figured if you burn out 1 or 2 6.5 barrels youve paid for the equipment in ammo cost difference. (Not counting paying myself for my time on my hobby).
I really like that prime in s using peterson brass, as i switched to that last year, so i can order factory to burn in a new barrel and have same brand of brass. I like the idea of having some components available for purchase from prime. Like brass and bullets.
I reload due to cost. But right now, time is more restricted (babies at home). What would be amazing is if i could, make my reloads "match" the prime factory (same bullet/brass) and then order factory new when i dont have time to reload.
Also back on track, using customer feedback / commitments and usage data will enable resource plannok g for peak years which shiuld reduce lead times.
I really like that prime in s using peterson brass, as i switched to that last year, so i can order factory to burn in a new barrel and have same brand of brass. I like the idea of having some components available for purchase from prime. Like brass and bullets.
I reload due to cost. But right now, time is more restricted (babies at home). What would be amazing is if i could, make my reloads "match" the prime factory (same bullet/brass) and then order factory new when i dont have time to reload.
Also back on track, using customer feedback / commitments and usage data will enable resource plannok g for peak years which shiuld reduce lead times.
I like the idea. But can Prime help me deal with the THOUSANDS of pieces of once fired brass I’m going to have if I go all in and give up reloading?
Maybe develop a re-manufactured offering and a program where we get X cents off per round on our next order for sending back our once fired brass?
Maybe develop a re-manufactured offering and a program where we get X cents off per round on our next order for sending back our once fired brass?
Before answering this I would need to better understand the process. If the process was something like:
send out a survey
collect responses
purchase components for selected caliber / calibers
once supplies were in hand collect deposits or payment in full and set timelines for delivery
produce and deliver
If the process is:
send survey
collect deposits or payment in full
try and source all supplies (runs risk of not being able to source all components and delays to orders)
customers lose out on delayed orders by having to purchase other ammo if not delivered in time for whatever event they needed the ammo for increasing cost.
get orders produces and sent out as components become available.
In the first scenario, this would allow prime to forecast cost / revenue and provide the ammo with the timeline set.
In the second scenario it, it would appear this would be using new money to cover old. This is always a dangerous and usually not sustainable business model.
I would like to have some quality .223/5.56, .308, and 6.5 Grendel on hand so when I get a chance to sneak out to the range I can grab and go vs having to plan it all out so I make time for the reloading bench or when I get a free hour I am at the range vice the bench. however there is also an upper limit to what I will pay.
send out a survey
collect responses
purchase components for selected caliber / calibers
once supplies were in hand collect deposits or payment in full and set timelines for delivery
produce and deliver
If the process is:
send survey
collect deposits or payment in full
try and source all supplies (runs risk of not being able to source all components and delays to orders)
customers lose out on delayed orders by having to purchase other ammo if not delivered in time for whatever event they needed the ammo for increasing cost.
get orders produces and sent out as components become available.
In the first scenario, this would allow prime to forecast cost / revenue and provide the ammo with the timeline set.
In the second scenario it, it would appear this would be using new money to cover old. This is always a dangerous and usually not sustainable business model.
I would like to have some quality .223/5.56, .308, and 6.5 Grendel on hand so when I get a chance to sneak out to the range I can grab and go vs having to plan it all out so I make time for the reloading bench or when I get a free hour I am at the range vice the bench. however there is also an upper limit to what I will pay.
Ive only used Prime ammo once. I love it! It was good and it helped me in a local match. That said Its worth it to buy in bulk which sometime is tough because at the end of the day I work for some company not own it so income varies. I also like most have invested greatly in reloadingi gears. It was a matter of a 9 year span not all at one time. I do not mind putting out time to load but it is time consuming. Buying good accurate already made ammo is awesome but unless I buy in bulk Ill end up spending more than all the money I wasted on loading. So I have to play the balance game of what is more important to me for upcoming shoot or match. I like prime
I must say that I am mostly a reloader, but when quality loaded ammo can be purchased at less than what I can load those same individual components for, then why reload or purchase individual components.
Take a look at the Berger Match Grade 6.5 Creedmoor 130,135,140 Ammo, you can purchase for a $1.32 rd. That same round would cost me close to $2 to reload myself with individual components and that's not factoring in shipping/tax if I had to cover it.
The standard loads offered at a good price, with quality components would be a win win for us all, whether competing, hunting, or plinking. Just offer each standard chambering with more options as far as bullet weights, brass selection(L/S primer) and a bullet that can be used for multiple purposes. Whether these components had to be sourced through changing manufacturers, based on over-runs/excess surplus, to bring a better price would be irrelevant as long as quality components with great brass.
So in short, more options for standard loaded chamberings and maybe individual components sales for niche/wildcat offerings. Surplus /distribution warehouses set up at regional locations could help defray shipping costs. Just as long as no location in PA so I don't have to shell out for sales tax. LOL
TM6
Take a look at the Berger Match Grade 6.5 Creedmoor 130,135,140 Ammo, you can purchase for a $1.32 rd. That same round would cost me close to $2 to reload myself with individual components and that's not factoring in shipping/tax if I had to cover it.
The standard loads offered at a good price, with quality components would be a win win for us all, whether competing, hunting, or plinking. Just offer each standard chambering with more options as far as bullet weights, brass selection(L/S primer) and a bullet that can be used for multiple purposes. Whether these components had to be sourced through changing manufacturers, based on over-runs/excess surplus, to bring a better price would be irrelevant as long as quality components with great brass.
So in short, more options for standard loaded chamberings and maybe individual components sales for niche/wildcat offerings. Surplus /distribution warehouses set up at regional locations could help defray shipping costs. Just as long as no location in PA so I don't have to shell out for sales tax. LOL
TM6
I am struggling to see how the crowd sourcing of information is going to work for those other then buyers that buy in bulk and manage their stock. I do think that some that purchase enough to take care of the next month, season, whatever, will contribute data when they are looking for ammo every once in a while, but if in the end they are not getting what they need their is no incentive to contribute. Seem like this would be really hard to keep going over time.
Having said that, in my mind building a crowd sourced order management system is pretty straight forward.
Having said that, in my mind building a crowd sourced order management system is pretty straight forward.
- List the wait time once item is released to production
- Total number of units needed to be on order to go to production
- Max number of units that would be available in the batch
- Batch cutoff dates
- Last date to get in on the order
- Expiration of the buy (order killed if min count not reached)
- Min and Max cost - this mainly applied when not all components are in stock
- Total number of units currently ordered
- Down payment required to get on the order
- Would expect this to cover a certain amount of production costs
- Would expect this to be non-refundable unless the expiration date is reached or all components could not be sourced
- One of the following going on at all times
- Cost control for the manufacture (when supplies are thin or expensive)
- Savings for the consumer
- When components are on-hand and demand is low
- Should always be less money than in-stock items that are not on clearance
- Buyers can clearly see how much they need to order or get the community involved to get their product
I just recently got into precision rifle shooting. I do not reload and my go to ammo is Berger 140 grain 6.5 Creedmoor. My cost per round after paying a small annual membership fee is $1.23 delivered. For me to have any interest in what (I think) Prime is proposing their ammo would have to be at that price point.
Stupid math is stupid.
Your logic assumes that the only alternative to reloading in one's free time is to go work overtime (NA if you're salaried), work a second job, or go run your own business during that free time.
Your logic is false
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I buy ll new cases when i switch a barrel out, so i generally only need 5 or 6 firings on my brass. I just bought a new 6.5 creed barrel and couple cases of the new PRIME. My plan would be that i would then reload those cases for the life of the barrel.
A product i would be interested in would be bullets from PRIME. If I do not have to switch my bullets after I use up the factory ammo, it saves me time and money getting dialing in something new. Could there be a "refill" option for customers who would like the ability to purchase factory ammo, but also reload?
A product i would be interested in would be bullets from PRIME. If I do not have to switch my bullets after I use up the factory ammo, it saves me time and money getting dialing in something new. Could there be a "refill" option for customers who would like the ability to purchase factory ammo, but also reload?
Interesting conversation.
Here is my methodology. Same as used by most of my shooting buddies.
I stopped reloading a while back but I get the reasons many do reload.
-Many enjoy reloading as a hobby and have made significant investments in equipment.
- Reload to get that perfect group
-Drive costs down so they can shoot more for a similar investment.
With this said I now shoot almost exclusively factory purchased ammo.
Typically I try a few different brands, bullet types, weights etc when I first purchase a new rifle/caliber.
I find the ammo my rifles like best and other ammo that is good enough. Meaning it gives good consistent results but perhaps not the tighest group.
I lay in wait for these cartridges (both the best and good enough) to go on sale or simply look for the best prices for these cartridges at a given point in time.
I make the purchase and have it delivered to my door in a matter of a couple of days. Zero fuss and Fs given.
I manage my inventory and will generally make relatively large purchases every 3 to 4 months or as needed to maintain my inventory.
We also save all our brass as many of us do have reload capabilities and equipment. I literally have 1000's upon 1000's of once fired brass in various calibers. Plus..., well you know, its good to have the ability to reload for that JIC situation should it ever arise.
In summary, many of us arent buying whatever is cheapest on ammoseek. We are buying what cartridges shoot best for us at the lowest price possible. Big difference. Once I find a couple different cartridges my rifles like I stock the F up on it then maintain my inventory based on how much I shoot in a given timeframe.
This is IMO what you are competing against.
Here is my methodology. Same as used by most of my shooting buddies.
I stopped reloading a while back but I get the reasons many do reload.
-Many enjoy reloading as a hobby and have made significant investments in equipment.
- Reload to get that perfect group
-Drive costs down so they can shoot more for a similar investment.
With this said I now shoot almost exclusively factory purchased ammo.
Typically I try a few different brands, bullet types, weights etc when I first purchase a new rifle/caliber.
I find the ammo my rifles like best and other ammo that is good enough. Meaning it gives good consistent results but perhaps not the tighest group.
I lay in wait for these cartridges (both the best and good enough) to go on sale or simply look for the best prices for these cartridges at a given point in time.
I make the purchase and have it delivered to my door in a matter of a couple of days. Zero fuss and Fs given.
I manage my inventory and will generally make relatively large purchases every 3 to 4 months or as needed to maintain my inventory.
We also save all our brass as many of us do have reload capabilities and equipment. I literally have 1000's upon 1000's of once fired brass in various calibers. Plus..., well you know, its good to have the ability to reload for that JIC situation should it ever arise.
In summary, many of us arent buying whatever is cheapest on ammoseek. We are buying what cartridges shoot best for us at the lowest price possible. Big difference. Once I find a couple different cartridges my rifles like I stock the F up on it then maintain my inventory based on how much I shoot in a given timeframe.
This is IMO what you are competing against.
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It’s actually a very good conversation and including the background on reloading is okay.
Reloaders are actually a small segment of the shooting world, and with the direction modern factory ammo is going, you can see why. We work longer hours, we have lives outside of shooting, so not everyone wants to reload. Time has to be included as my time is valuable on so many levels.
What is your time worth, for me with a good factory load giving me single digit SD number makes this decision easier. I don’t have a lot of disposable time on my hands.
The time component is also I’mportant because part of this is about time. It’s about deliverying ammo quicker and cheaper without having a ton of wasted inventory sitting on a shelf taking up space. This is where the crowd comes in and using the communication resources to focus the buying and selling in order to minimize the ebbs and flows we often see.
What people get upset over is the feast or famine model, both with ammo and components. With this mndset you cannot ignore the political landscape as it’s most responsible for these waves we see. By being focused on the most desired combinations you hope to avoid the inconsistency we experience today.
I think this research helps understand the mindset
Reloaders are actually a small segment of the shooting world, and with the direction modern factory ammo is going, you can see why. We work longer hours, we have lives outside of shooting, so not everyone wants to reload. Time has to be included as my time is valuable on so many levels.
What is your time worth, for me with a good factory load giving me single digit SD number makes this decision easier. I don’t have a lot of disposable time on my hands.
The time component is also I’mportant because part of this is about time. It’s about deliverying ammo quicker and cheaper without having a ton of wasted inventory sitting on a shelf taking up space. This is where the crowd comes in and using the communication resources to focus the buying and selling in order to minimize the ebbs and flows we often see.
What people get upset over is the feast or famine model, both with ammo and components. With this mndset you cannot ignore the political landscape as it’s most responsible for these waves we see. By being focused on the most desired combinations you hope to avoid the inconsistency we experience today.
I think this research helps understand the mindset
Possibly, although he does have 6.5 Creedmoor listed. Regardless, I have purchased both the old and new .223 77gr and 6.5cm 130gr and like them.
Speaking for myself, it's not practical for me at this time to delve back into reloading as it is very time consuming. As such, I seek to purchase the best ammo I can at the best price to produce as close to the results I'm looking for. Those results can vary. For instance, I try to buy the tightest shooting ammo I can for the best price for my rifles. But, that might not be Federal GMM. Right now, for at least two of my rifles, it happens to be foreign less-expensive ammo.
Likewise, my wife, who is involved in multi-gun and blows through hundreds of rounds of ammo at close range on a weekend, doesn't necessarily need the most expensive ammo out there. She just needs the cheapest ammo I can find that is accurate enough to get the job done. I'll spend the money on high-priced ammo if I need to, but why spend money on something I don't need?
Likewise, my wife, who is involved in multi-gun and blows through hundreds of rounds of ammo at close range on a weekend, doesn't necessarily need the most expensive ammo out there. She just needs the cheapest ammo I can find that is accurate enough to get the job done. I'll spend the money on high-priced ammo if I need to, but why spend money on something I don't need?
I may be over-simplifying this but how easy would this be to do:
-Monthly Group Buys on SH
-Payment must be received one month in advance
-Product must be delivered one month from receipt of payment
-Seller lists prices and availability for each months “group buy”
-No deviations from the above in order to get better prices and reduce costs
If the quality is there which I think it is and the price is good enough then I don’t see why it wouldn’t be profitable. For “pre-orders” a lot of traditional business risk is removed so I think a lower margin would make sense in this scenario but I don’t have an mba from Harvard so my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it hahaha
-Monthly Group Buys on SH
-Payment must be received one month in advance
-Product must be delivered one month from receipt of payment
-Seller lists prices and availability for each months “group buy”
-No deviations from the above in order to get better prices and reduce costs
If the quality is there which I think it is and the price is good enough then I don’t see why it wouldn’t be profitable. For “pre-orders” a lot of traditional business risk is removed so I think a lower margin would make sense in this scenario but I don’t have an mba from Harvard so my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it hahaha
Prime isn’t asking how to run their business as some here seem to believe, Prime is offering improved price and availability including possible new loads. They are asking us for realistic forecasts of how much of what calibers we will commit to purchasing. If this is all mental exercise the result will be nothing.
Are we simply going to commit to a certain recurring level of purchase or not?
Are we simply going to commit to a certain recurring level of purchase or not?
As a consumer, my biggest concern would be that there is redundancy in the manufacturing process. The “all your eggs in one basket” business plan didn’t work the first time. Prime has proven it can come up with good recipes. Component supplies are factored, so a basic “menu” can be provided to the customer. Choose your options, orders placed, paid for and delivered.
It's a specialty ammo manufacturing business not an investment plan for your retirement. It's risky but possibly extremely rewarding. We'd have nothing if no one took a "all in one basket" risk.
Although adding related merchandise is not a bad idea at all. If financially feasible and is also a "risk". If it wasn't "risky" everyone would be doing it well.
Although adding related merchandise is not a bad idea at all. If financially feasible and is also a "risk". If it wasn't "risky" everyone would be doing it well.
Risk has been discussed at length, and really the only risk would technically be a delay or non delivery but if that is up front, like noted, a buy based on what is there vs what we want, there is no risk, you know up front.
This is not Russian roulette, you’d know beforehand, what is there and how long til it ships.
Sourcing components and manufacturing will be separate buckets, unlike the RUAG situation, where they controlled both.
This is not Russian roulette, you’d know beforehand, what is there and how long til it ships.
Sourcing components and manufacturing will be separate buckets, unlike the RUAG situation, where they controlled both.
Or is this going to be like:
My name is Lee...I'll be shooting 10 events in 2020 for 6mm Creed. So, I'll be willing to pre-order 1500 rounds to cover comps and practice at a guaranteed price of X. I agree to pay 1/4th up front and expect delivery by March 1st. Next 1/4th paid before and delivered by May 1st. Next 1/4th paid before and delivered by July 1st. Last 1/4th paid before and delivered by Sept 1st....and then I send my action in to get re-barreled. If I fail to meet my obligations I'm on the hook for difference in price of previous delivered rounds at a regular price of X.
Once fulfilling my 2020 obligation I'm eligible for a preferred shooter discount of x% for 2021.
Something like that?...and I'd probably demand a sticker.
My name is Lee...I'll be shooting 10 events in 2020 for 6mm Creed. So, I'll be willing to pre-order 1500 rounds to cover comps and practice at a guaranteed price of X. I agree to pay 1/4th up front and expect delivery by March 1st. Next 1/4th paid before and delivered by May 1st. Next 1/4th paid before and delivered by July 1st. Last 1/4th paid before and delivered by Sept 1st....and then I send my action in to get re-barreled. If I fail to meet my obligations I'm on the hook for difference in price of previous delivered rounds at a regular price of X.
Once fulfilling my 2020 obligation I'm eligible for a preferred shooter discount of x% for 2021.
Something like that?...and I'd probably demand a sticker.
Not sure if this has been suggested, my apologies if so.
What about a subscription type option? For example, I know I'm going to shoot at least 100 rounds a month, so I sign up for the subscription and PRIME ships me 100 rounds every month and charges my card once a month. That way they can forecast demand easier and hopefully lock in supplier costs for a year at a time.
ETA: Offer components. Use the extra volume to leverage better pricing from suppliers.
What about a subscription type option? For example, I know I'm going to shoot at least 100 rounds a month, so I sign up for the subscription and PRIME ships me 100 rounds every month and charges my card once a month. That way they can forecast demand easier and hopefully lock in supplier costs for a year at a time.
ETA: Offer components. Use the extra volume to leverage better pricing from suppliers.
Ammo companies face a different set of problems, hence the struggles we see
The old model is broke except for a few giant players and still the biggest has issues today
The old model is broke except for a few giant players and still the biggest has issues today
This may be the type of thing that can work as long as other strategies are explored. There is something that is often employed in other industries when faced with supply issues related to niche markets. It’s vertical integration. Ask LRI why he brought things in house and continues to do so. Control of quality and supply.
However, the key to expand into your supply is capital. That brings it right back to the problem at hand. Availability of capital in this politically restricted environment.
I am not sure exactly what Jim is asking for other than explaining something needs to be done with his business model to essentially get a just-in-time production/delivery model in place. When I purchase precision rifle ammo, I generally purchase one or two cases of 200 at a time.
I love Prime ammo especially the 260 Remington which shoots bughole groups for me but, this is not currently an available item. I would purchase 2 cases of 7mm Rem Mag now if I could but that is also not available so I just ordered components to handload. For the most part, Prime currently offers calibers that I either don't use or are overpriced. For example, the Prime 308 caliber options are $299/200 rounds. This is really hard to justify getting Prime when Federal GMM is frequently on sale for $170/200 rounds and my rifle shoots one hole groups with it. While I have no doubt the Prime 308 is quality ammo, I doubt I would notice any difference from the less expensive GMM. I also don't see the point of Prime 9mm or 45ACP as it is very expensive compared to other alternatives.
Perhaps a subscription service or ordering in advance for batch production might be a good alternative.
I love Prime ammo especially the 260 Remington which shoots bughole groups for me but, this is not currently an available item. I would purchase 2 cases of 7mm Rem Mag now if I could but that is also not available so I just ordered components to handload. For the most part, Prime currently offers calibers that I either don't use or are overpriced. For example, the Prime 308 caliber options are $299/200 rounds. This is really hard to justify getting Prime when Federal GMM is frequently on sale for $170/200 rounds and my rifle shoots one hole groups with it. While I have no doubt the Prime 308 is quality ammo, I doubt I would notice any difference from the less expensive GMM. I also don't see the point of Prime 9mm or 45ACP as it is very expensive compared to other alternatives.
Perhaps a subscription service or ordering in advance for batch production might be a good alternative.
One thing i have not seen discussed here is effects of throat erosion over time. My last couple 6.5x47 barrels had significant erosion over the life of the barrel. I have not shot factory ammo for several years, but do the factory loads work as good at round 1 as round 2500?
Could we perhaps see loadings where the components are the same, but the bullet is seated further out? On a new barrel you use standard PRIME, but after 500 or 600 rounds you switch to "stage 2" loadings which are a little longer. after 1200 rounds go to "stage 3" etc?
Maybe this is a non issue, but as a reloader it is something I am always worried about.
Could we perhaps see loadings where the components are the same, but the bullet is seated further out? On a new barrel you use standard PRIME, but after 500 or 600 rounds you switch to "stage 2" loadings which are a little longer. after 1200 rounds go to "stage 3" etc?
Maybe this is a non issue, but as a reloader it is something I am always worried about.
In that case, I'm a big user of .308 win 168gr target, .45 ACP 230gr FMJ, 9mm FMJ, and 12 guage #8 and #8-1/2 shotshells, and 7.62x51 M80, in that order.
Reread the initial post. A few thoughts.
Places like ammoseek likely collect meta on user searches for marketing purposes. They likely have meta on what searches are most frequent, including calibers, weight, bullet types etc. This data would be very useful.
The above data would be valuable in addition to collecting information from sites like this.
Make an announcement in RT via email/txt which advertises the opportunity for a particular run of ammo. Also can announce the run on popular sites such as here.
Create a customer portal where users can sign up for notifications. Build an ecommerece suite to assist with ordering/billing and account balances.
Users can then opt in with a pledge.
There must be some timeframe agreement/commitment on the run. Price per round must also be transparent and fully communicated to the user community. If enough users pledge and put in down payment then the production is moved forward and used for procurement.
The number needed to move forward for a run could be calculated by such factors as component costs , ability and need for inventory, etc. Additionally, the manufacturer COULD decide to move forward even if the run does not make the pledge. Again, depending on factors such as ability to stock certain amount of inventory - see the ammoseek data. For instance, marketing data shows a certain cartridge as a very popular. The criteria on a pledge run would factor the ability of the manufacturer to hold some amount of inventory from this run with the pretense that it can easily be sold in open market.
The production run would need to have realistic pledge goals. Else whats the point.
If the run does not meet the criteria, the users pledge funds could either be credited to thier online account to be used in future runs or be refunded to their credit cards. I like this idea because I could keep certain amount of credit in the store. Next run I may pledge 2000 round instead of 1000 rounds since I could use the account to bank ammo funding.
For example.
I get a text stating we have ability/opportunity for 3006 168gr SMK BTHP at X cost per round for first 400 rounds then Y cost for 400 to 1000 rounds so long as the pledge is met. I am interested and pledge my 30% upfront for the number of rounds I want per the given cost.
I can then watch the site to see the progress of pledge money to keep track if the goal will be met or not.
If it is met then I am billed the entire amount once the product ships. If it doesn't run then I am refunded/credited the pledge amount. This would either by my choice go back on my card or to my online account to be used for next potential run.
Hell, you could even have graduated pledge runs to build incentive to offset a runs capital expenditure. Like if you pledge X% up front you get price per round of Y and so forth.
I would be game for this. But two major factors. First, the prices must be competitive to what I can already get the ammo for. And secondly, it must be as consistent and well made as ammo I already get.
Edited to add some detail.
Places like ammoseek likely collect meta on user searches for marketing purposes. They likely have meta on what searches are most frequent, including calibers, weight, bullet types etc. This data would be very useful.
The above data would be valuable in addition to collecting information from sites like this.
Make an announcement in RT via email/txt which advertises the opportunity for a particular run of ammo. Also can announce the run on popular sites such as here.
Create a customer portal where users can sign up for notifications. Build an ecommerece suite to assist with ordering/billing and account balances.
Users can then opt in with a pledge.
There must be some timeframe agreement/commitment on the run. Price per round must also be transparent and fully communicated to the user community. If enough users pledge and put in down payment then the production is moved forward and used for procurement.
The number needed to move forward for a run could be calculated by such factors as component costs , ability and need for inventory, etc. Additionally, the manufacturer COULD decide to move forward even if the run does not make the pledge. Again, depending on factors such as ability to stock certain amount of inventory - see the ammoseek data. For instance, marketing data shows a certain cartridge as a very popular. The criteria on a pledge run would factor the ability of the manufacturer to hold some amount of inventory from this run with the pretense that it can easily be sold in open market.
The production run would need to have realistic pledge goals. Else whats the point.
If the run does not meet the criteria, the users pledge funds could either be credited to thier online account to be used in future runs or be refunded to their credit cards. I like this idea because I could keep certain amount of credit in the store. Next run I may pledge 2000 round instead of 1000 rounds since I could use the account to bank ammo funding.
For example.
I get a text stating we have ability/opportunity for 3006 168gr SMK BTHP at X cost per round for first 400 rounds then Y cost for 400 to 1000 rounds so long as the pledge is met. I am interested and pledge my 30% upfront for the number of rounds I want per the given cost.
I can then watch the site to see the progress of pledge money to keep track if the goal will be met or not.
If it is met then I am billed the entire amount once the product ships. If it doesn't run then I am refunded/credited the pledge amount. This would either by my choice go back on my card or to my online account to be used for next potential run.
Hell, you could even have graduated pledge runs to build incentive to offset a runs capital expenditure. Like if you pledge X% up front you get price per round of Y and so forth.
I would be game for this. But two major factors. First, the prices must be competitive to what I can already get the ammo for. And secondly, it must be as consistent and well made as ammo I already get.
Edited to add some detail.
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Business is a fragile creature and I'm sure mr. Jim has spent many sleepless nights trying to put a finger on the magic answer (a sign of passion)
Being in business for thirty years I was trained by some old SF dude (my dad) he didn't just think outside the box he never had one.
One thing is to bounce shit off the wall and see what sticks. Which is what a lot of people don't do in business especially the college educated that has the mindset that they are the all knowing.
If I knew everything about firearms and ammunition I wouldn't be here.
I think Frank accomplished the mission of wall bouncing. The industry that prime is in coming to the hide for some opinion should say something. On that note my 6.5 hide version APO saber m700 will be here tomorrow I might need to order some ammo might have to give prime (shot).
Being in business for thirty years I was trained by some old SF dude (my dad) he didn't just think outside the box he never had one.
One thing is to bounce shit off the wall and see what sticks. Which is what a lot of people don't do in business especially the college educated that has the mindset that they are the all knowing.
If I knew everything about firearms and ammunition I wouldn't be here.
I think Frank accomplished the mission of wall bouncing. The industry that prime is in coming to the hide for some opinion should say something. On that note my 6.5 hide version APO saber m700 will be here tomorrow I might need to order some ammo might have to give prime (shot).
No, I am saying I put a value on my time. My free time is more valued than my work time.
if your isn’t your doing something wrong.
I burn a few barrels a year, shoot a lot of matches, Hunt, ski, bla bla bla.. yep I reload, but it cannibalizes other hobbies, life duties etc.
My time is worth something, sounds like your’s isn’t
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Was the main reasons I stopped reloading. Between work, taking care of the house, spending time / hanging with the wife and kids with school and sports, etc there just wasnt room for much else.
Will revisit after i retire (soon).
After having a conversation in the last few weeks with Jim, I have a new appreciation for the way he wants to run Prime. Times have changed and any company that refuses to adapt will be a thing of the past. Prime is making bold steps and has honored their word and stood by their shooters/suppliers that helped them survive the RUAG debacle. Quality American product is difficult to come by and Prime is focusing on the segment of the market that appreciates this. I want to do business with Companies that have these values, I won't be purchasing tons of product but will remain a loyal customer and recommend Prime anytime I can.
