Best powder for accuracy with a gas powered 308?

Q

Quicksilver

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 3, 2013
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College Station, TX
#1
I have recently started fooling around with different powders and was wondering what would be a good powder for accuracy on my favorite rifle?

The rifle is a AR-10 ArmaLite .308 with a 20" stainless barrel with a 1:10 twist. Currently, it has a flash hider but will have a ThunderBeast suppressor eventually once things calm down in the market.

I prefer (and the gun likes) 175 SMK's and the powder I currently use is IMR 4895 which I think is a very god powder. I do not have a chrono which is unfortunate, but will try like hell to get one after things calm down.

I like shooting with this rifle at long range (1000 yards, but no further) but typically im shooting under 700 yards. I use the SMK's regardless of paper or animal.

I was considering the following powders and would like the pros and cons of each. I probably did a half hour of "research" towards each one, with more time spent on others.

IMR 4895 (this is what I currently use)
Varget (hearing great things, but might be too fast with a suppressor....?)
IMR 4320 (no experience with this one)
IMR 4064 (again, no experience)
IMR 3031 (still no experience)

Wasn't sure if this post should be in reloading or semi-auto rifles.... my apologies if it is in the wrong section.

I attached pictures of the rig below-
 

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#4
There are a lot of good powders out there for 308. I too am a big fan of 8208 XBR. Are you reloading on a single stage or progressive? If single stage, then you'll have a few more choices. My Dillon is a bit finicky about how she throws powder. However, she does fine with XBR and that's all that matters to me. When I only had a single stage, I used Varget and RL-15 with very good results.

Nice rig you've got there!
 
#12
My press is a single stage RCBS. Its not really fancy, but I do have some "things" I do that keep consistency pretty decent-

On dies, I take the brass screw out and insert about 2 drops of soldier. It creates a cushon that better conforms to the threads to make a more effective stop and doesn't wear out your brass screw-
I use a crow foot and inch lb torque wrench (and I have "etched" markers) on the die screw/press to make sure everything lines up where I need it. I do that with the bullet seating die and the sizing die. My COAL is 2.800 on the money and works well. My brass trimmer is pretty kickass (lyman) and I can easily get them within .002 or better of each other and I typically go .010 under the max length after sized. If I had to guess, my chamfer is .040 wide at most, and I debur the flash holes on all cartridges (only when new). Also, I don't touch my bullets without gloves.

I have a lyman powder trickle and use a RCBS chargemaster. Originally, it would drive me crazy by overshooting sometimes, but I fixed the issue by using a mc donalds straw in the very end so the powder rolls off easier (when it doesn't meet the weight, it spins the tube faster and tosses out too much powder).
 
#13
I'm running Varget under 175 SMKs in my 21" Noveske right now and it's always 3/4moa or better for me, which is pretty good with me pulling the trigger. I've been having good luck with 2000mr in my bolt .308 with 178s and I want to work something up for the MWS since it's a ball powder but I have a limited supply at the moment. CFE223 should be good too since it's the same or very close to 2000mr.
 
#15
Ive burnt 4895, 4064, RL15 and Varget and came up with good loads for the. 308's I load for with all of them....but Varget is what I use after all's said and done.

Okie

PS. Oh, 178 A Max's, 11.25 twist Armalite AR10 T w/ 2500+ rnds, stll sub moa.
 
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#16
I think I have tried every powder known to shoot in the .308 and even some others. I love Varget for it's consistency but it's very hard to find. 4046 is good as is RE15. Another great one for accuracy is Ramshot TAC but it can be temp sensitive. I do like XBR8208 and it seems to be more available. That is what I'm using now since I have about 12lbs of it. I have tried CFE and ARComp with good results but like other ball powders it can be temp sensitive. My best group ever was with 45g of TAC under a 175 SMK.

As for the Chargemaster 1500 overthrowing I just program it to charge .5 under my target weight and just stab the trickle button to meet the target. I rarely go over. Easier than hand trickling. I must ask. Why the gloves handing bullets? Contamination? Please explain?
 
#18
The reason I wear gloves when loading bullets is the amount of friction required to release the bullet from the brass. Touching the bullets leaves a fine coating of oil from your skin. While that sounds insane, it can and does alter how much pressure it takes to release the bullet, causing a change in your muzzle velocity and resulting in a bullet that may shoot a little high/low compared to the others.

I read alot of books. Alot. I really like both books written by Brian Litz, but I also own a few other books specifically dedicated to reloading techniques. I know the above statement sounds insane, but you probably know that its the "little things" that make a big difference in consistency.
 
#19
Thanks Quicksilver. I thought that might be it but I had to ask. BCP it seems every store I stop at here in Michigan is low on everything but alwasy seens to have some XBR and RE19 which is what I load in my .308 and .260 respectively. I stopped at a store in Mid-Michigan called Jays and they had a shelf of 8lb jugs of XBR for $152! I got an 8lb jug of RE19 at Bass Pro of all places for $130. Go figure.
 
#20
Danco411 said:
Thanks Quicksilver. I thought that might be it but I had to ask. BCP it seems every store I stop at here in Michigan is low on everything but alwasy seens to have some XBR and RE19 which is what I load in my .308 and .260 respectively. I stopped at a store in Mid-Michigan called Jays and they had a shelf of 8lb jugs of XBR for $152! I got an 8lb jug of RE19 at Bass Pro of all places for $130. Go figure.
Click to expand...

So I guess I have to drive to Michigan for powder unless you wanna be a sweetheart and ship me an 8lber lol..
 
#25
i run 4064 and varget for the 178 amax and 180SMK. the 4064 is a bit better than varget.

42.6gr 4064 178amax= .3 MOA, crazy good,

43.7gr varget 178 amax=.5 MOA

both loads produced 2500fps with single digit SD
 
#26
mrhog said:
My Armalite shoots lights out with IMR 4895. It's now all I use after trying several others.
Click to expand...

Could you be more specific as to the bullet weight and grains of powder used? Also, what is your twist and barrel length?

Also, LOVE the big titties avatar- however, your Molon Labe is incorrect- it means "Come and take". It was supposedly spoken by King Leonidas in response to the Persian army's demand that the Spartans surrender their weapons at the Battle of Thermopylae. Whether or not thats true, who knows- but its a great expression.
 
#27
jjrgr21 said:
i run 4064 and varget for the 178 amax and 180SMK. the 4064 is a bit better than varget.

42.6gr 4064 178amax= .3 MOA, crazy good,

43.7gr varget 178 amax=.5 MOA

both loads produced 2500fps with single digit SD
Click to expand...

I have seriously considered going to a 180gr bullet for awhile now, but was afraid it would be a little heavy and lose too much energy. Good to hear the 178 does well. I do have a secret love affair with the 180g interbond but I hate its BC... the next best thing is really the 178gr AMAX and the BC is pretty good. I really wish they made it in a 175gr bullet.... and honestly, 175 SMK's shoot well and are relatively inexpensive... they just have a problem with going THROUGH the animal you are shooting, rather than releasing all the energy into them.
 
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#28
When you do decide on some powders, I can't recommend ladder-testing enough. A buddy of mine just got less than 1" of vertical dispersion at 500yds from his .308 running 175gr SMK's with Varget. Each one of those loads was a different charge weight, so it appears he has found an accuracy node. He loaded up a batch of that charge weight average, and shot two 1/2 MOA 5rd groups to confirm the accuracy node.

You will probably find several great loads, no matter what powder you use, as long as you ladder-test at distance. I really cut down the amount of time I spend on doing load development once I got turned onto the ladder test/longitudinal shock wave theory approach, and I find super-accurate loads faster than I ever could loading the same charge weights in batches of 5. Shooting at 100yds is basically pointless though, as they will often go through the same ragged hole. You need to push out to 300yds at a minimum with the .308, preferably 500 or 600yds.
 
#30
LRRPF52 said:
When you do decide on some powders, I can't recommend ladder-testing enough. A buddy of mine just got less than 1" of vertical dispersion at 500yds from his .308 running 175gr SMK's with Varget. Each one of those loads was a different charge weight, so it appears he has found an accuracy node. He loaded up a batch of that charge weight average, and shot two 1/2 MOA 5rd groups to confirm the accuracy node.

You will probably find several great loads, no matter what powder you use, as long as you ladder-test at distance. I really cut down the amount of time I spend on doing load development once I got turned onto the ladder test/longitudinal shock wave theory approach, and I find super-accurate loads faster than I ever could loading the same charge weights in batches of 5. Shooting at 100yds is basically pointless though, as they will often go through the same ragged hole. You need to push out to 300yds at a minimum with the .308, preferably 500 or 600yds.
Click to expand...

Could not agree more about the range. Honestly, the minimum I shoot is 200 yards, and I think its a joke. You can make a ragged patch at 200 yards with good ammo in a good rifle. Shooter being able of course...

As for ladder testing- Im curious as to how most do it- I have read hardly anything about it, but to the best of my thinking, you would load 5 bullets at say, 43.5- 5 bullets at 44, 5 at 44.5 and so on and average the tightest "vertical group" of the bunch and come back with "finer" tuned ammo in lesser increments. From what I have read, most people only load ONE bullet at say, 42.5, 42.8, 43.1 and so on... I can't rely on one bullet to give me irrefutable data on height average unless im in an indoor gun range with no wind, no other input variables and perfect case volumes, bullet weights, BC's... and on and on.
 
#32
Quicksilver said:
Could not agree more about the range. Honestly, the minimum I shoot is 200 yards, and I think its a joke. You can make a ragged patch at 200 yards with good ammo in a good rifle. Shooter being able of course...

As for ladder testing- Im curious as to how most do it- I have read hardly anything about it, but to the best of my thinking, you would load 5 bullets at say, 43.5- 5 bullets at 44, 5 at 44.5 and so on and average the tightest "vertical group" of the bunch and come back with "finer" tuned ammo in lesser increments. From what I have read, most people only load ONE bullet at say, 42.5, 42.8, 43.1 and so on... I can't rely on one bullet to give me irrefutable data on height average unless im in an indoor gun range with no wind, no other input variables and perfect case volumes, bullet weights, BC's... and on and on.
Click to expand...

I used to load batches of 5 and shoot each to see which grouped the best. Now I load in strings where every load is a different charge weight, but I will do at least 2 or 3 batches to rule out flukes on one of the ladders. For your initial ladder test batches, you can load 30 rounds (3x10 ladder batches) rather than 50rds of 10 different loads in 5rd batches.

The wind won't matter when looking for vertical dispersion, unless you have some insane wind. Optimal Charge Weight/Optimal Barrel Time/Longitudinal Shock Wave Theory are proven concepts. I will never load like I used to after seeing the proof for myself. It also allows you to fine-tune your loads to seating depth after you have found a velocity node.
 
#34
mrhog said:
My Armalite shoots lights out with IMR 4895. It's now all I use after trying several others.
Click to expand...


Mine does too, I have shot a 20 round group that measured 1.48 inches at 100 yards. I did it for just shits and grins but I rarely shoot for groups. I have now experimented and found great results with 4064 too. I didn't play much with Varget but from what I have in these two IMR powders I have no need to switch...
 
#38
Quicksilver said:
Could you be more specific as to the bullet weight and grains of powder used? Also, what is your twist and barrel length?

Also, LOVE the big titties avatar- however, your Molon Labe is incorrect- it means "Come and take". It was supposedly spoken by King Leonidas in response to the Persian army's demand that the Spartans surrender their weapons at the Battle of Thermopylae. Whether or not thats true, who knows- but its a great expression.
Click to expand...
I use 44grs. under a 175 SMK in FGMM brass and CCI-BR primers. It leaves at 2610 fps.
IMG_20130317_161515.jpg
 
#39
LRRPF52 said:
I used to load batches of 5 and shoot each to see which grouped the best. Now I load in strings where every load is a different charge weight, but I will do at least 2 or 3 batches to rule out flukes on one of the ladders. For your initial ladder test batches, you can load 30 rounds (3x10 ladder batches) rather than 50rds of 10 different loads in 5rd batches.

The wind won't matter when looking for vertical dispersion, unless you have some insane wind. Optimal Charge Weight/Optimal Barrel Time/Longitudinal Shock Wave Theory are proven concepts. I will never load like I used to after seeing the proof for myself. It also allows you to fine-tune your loads to seating depth after you have found a velocity node.
Click to expand...

Just a thought- what "were" looking for in a ladder test is the average vertical group which would be from an efficient burn of powder in the cartridge correct? Couldn't you calculate the "stoichometry" of how a powder burns in relation to cartridge space (and size) to determine how a certain powder burns in a certain volume? This would be alot faster and cut down on testing time. At one time, I would drill out flash holes on cartridges to allow droplets to get inside, trim the cartridge to the needed length, press in the bullet of choice and then CC the available space to determine the volume of the case with bullet inserted. Even with my glass burette, you can get within .1 millilitres to know the case volume. I guess the real problem would be knowing the ideal volume a certain charge of powder would like to see.
 
#41
Wow, you and LRR are impressive marksmen. You're just now getting comfy with "ladder testing" (which has been being used for decades) but consider ragged holes at 200 a joke and have to "push out" to 300 to 600 yrds to get out of the "ragged hole" delemma. Maybe you can post some pics {with witnesses) of equipment data and loads to enlighten the rest of us on your success? Ragged holes like you're talking could win any competition in this country, anyday.

okie
 
#42
okiefired said:
Wow, you and LRR are impressive marksmen. You're just now getting comfy with "ladder testing" (which has been being used for decades) but consider ragged holes at 200 a joke and have to "push out" to 300 to 600 yrds to get out of the "ragged hole" delemma. Maybe you can post some pics {with witnesses) of equipment data and loads to enlighten the rest of us on your success? Ragged holes like you're talking could win any competition in this country, anyday.

okie
Click to expand...

better yet - run that 30 rds 6 groups on one target sheet at 300 yds that elfster was doing a thread on last year - that exercise tends to separate fact from fantasy
 
#45
Quicksilver said:
I have seriously considered going to a 180gr bullet for awhile now, but was afraid it would be a little heavy and lose too much energy. Good to hear the 178 does well. I do have a secret love affair with the 180g interbond but I hate its BC... the next best thing is really the 178gr AMAX and the BC is pretty good. I really wish they made it in a 175gr bullet.... and honestly, 175 SMK's shoot well and are relatively inexpensive... they just have a problem with going THROUGH the animal you are shooting, rather than releasing all the energy into them.
Click to expand...

we use the 178 amax on pigs and deer, i've pushed it to 700 from my 18" JP, and the varget load shoots 4"@600 consistently
 
#46
I (have) use(d) IMR-4064 for .308, 7.62x54R, and .30-'06, bolt or semi, with very acceptable results. While IMR-4895 will work very well, especially with lighter bullets, I have defaulted to IMR-4064 for all my full sized .30 caliber chamberings. I use IMR-4198 for the .30BR and 7.62x39. I say 'have used' in reference to the .308 because I no longer have any .308's, they have been replaced by .260's and I use H-4350 for that chambering.

Greg
 
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