What software is the best software to use if someone is going to use density altitude for their calculations?
Is there a good software for this that is free?
Is there a good software for this that is free?
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Range Report Best software for density altitude
- Thread starter m1a convert
- Start date
Re: Best software for density altitude
You can use JBM. See:
Making Ballistic Cards Using Density Altitude
You can use JBM. See:
Making Ballistic Cards Using Density Altitude
Re: Best software for density altitude
Hey Lindy,
thanks. It was great seeing you last November. Looking forward to gettng back to RO
Hey Lindy,
thanks. It was great seeing you last November. Looking forward to gettng back to RO
Re: Best software for density altitude
I am not quite sure how to go about this. I went shooting and got the MV with a chrono and recorded the density altitude from my Kestrel. How do I enter that number into JBM to get it to work?
I am not quite sure how to go about this. I went shooting and got the MV with a chrono and recorded the density altitude from my Kestrel. How do I enter that number into JBM to get it to work?
Re: Best software for density altitude
One of the problems of having 65 shooters on site is not being able to associate screen names with individuals, since many of them are on this site.
Next time get my attention by handing me a beer, and say, "Hi - I'm m1a convert on snipershide."
One of the problems of having 65 shooters on site is not being able to associate screen names with individuals, since many of them are on this site.
Next time get my attention by handing me a beer, and say, "Hi - I'm m1a convert on snipershide."
Re: Best software for density altitude
You don't.
When you're shooting, record the station pressure, temperature, and relative humidity from the Kestrel.
There is no reason to enter DA into JBM, or any other ballistic program if you have those three quantities, which is what DA is calculated from.
If you're not sure what station pressure is, see:
Barometric Pressure and Ballistic Software
You don't.
When you're shooting, record the station pressure, temperature, and relative humidity from the Kestrel.
There is no reason to enter DA into JBM, or any other ballistic program if you have those three quantities, which is what DA is calculated from.
If you're not sure what station pressure is, see:
Barometric Pressure and Ballistic Software
Re: Best software for density altitude
P.S. - if you recorded the DA, and just want to see what JBM would predict for your load, go to the link below, and just put in the DA down at the bottom where it says "Altitudes":
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmcard-5.1.cgi
P.S. - if you recorded the DA, and just want to see what JBM would predict for your load, go to the link below, and just put in the DA down at the bottom where it says "Altitudes":
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmcard-5.1.cgi
Re: Best software for density altitude
I didn't record the other 3 values because I thought once I had DA I wouldn't need them. Is that incorrect? I thought if I entered DA I could create a chart that would allow me to have the data at my fingertips showing what I would need to dial at each DA value.
If I just enter DA in the bottom box where it says altitude do I just leave the values for temp etc alone when I calculate it?
I know what you mean about not being able to keep everyone straight. This is Dan. I was in Buckshots group. I had the tan snipershide rifle and the eberlestock backpack. I also was able to avoid buying any Dos Equis, but that was purely luck.
I didn't record the other 3 values because I thought once I had DA I wouldn't need them. Is that incorrect? I thought if I entered DA I could create a chart that would allow me to have the data at my fingertips showing what I would need to dial at each DA value.
If I just enter DA in the bottom box where it says altitude do I just leave the values for temp etc alone when I calculate it?
I know what you mean about not being able to keep everyone straight. This is Dan. I was in Buckshots group. I had the tan snipershide rifle and the eberlestock backpack. I also was able to avoid buying any Dos Equis, but that was purely luck.
Re: Best software for density altitude
You have the concept right. See the instructions on my page on building DA ballistic cards.
On that JBM page, the temperatures above the altitudes are used in to compute muzzle velocities if you have entered data on how your load's muzzle velocity varies with temperature.
That's explained in my instructions.
You have the concept right. See the instructions on my page on building DA ballistic cards.
On that JBM page, the temperatures above the altitudes are used in to compute muzzle velocities if you have entered data on how your load's muzzle velocity varies with temperature.
That's explained in my instructions.
Re: Best software for density altitude
m1a convert,
LoadBase 3.0 from Patagonia Ballistics is not a free application but can
take the DA value and you're ready. I have tested it using
all the parameters and only using DA and I really was impressed. The method it uses is quite unique to my understanding. It also has a DA calculator.
m1a convert,
LoadBase 3.0 from Patagonia Ballistics is not a free application but can
take the DA value and you're ready. I have tested it using
all the parameters and only using DA and I really was impressed. The method it uses is quite unique to my understanding. It also has a DA calculator.
Re: Best software for density altitude
A person who has access to a ballistic program has no need for the concept of density altitude.
The purpose of a density altitude dope card is to enable a shooter to shoot anyplace without having access to a ballistic program in the field.
To calculate DA, you must know the temperature, pressure, and humidity. If you know those three things, you just enter them into the ballistic program directly.
JBM's DA page exists for the purpose of building those cards. Having a ballistic program where one enters the DA is otherwise simply redundant.
It can also obscure the fact that muzzle velocity is solely a function of temperature, but there are many combinations of temperature, humidity, and pressure which result in the same DA.
If you enter only the DA into a ballistic program in the field, you may be computing a shot for a different muzzle velocity than you will have. You must compensate for the temperature, and if you're going to do that, you might as well just enter all 3 quantities which are used in the calculation of air density.
A person who has access to a ballistic program has no need for the concept of density altitude.
The purpose of a density altitude dope card is to enable a shooter to shoot anyplace without having access to a ballistic program in the field.
To calculate DA, you must know the temperature, pressure, and humidity. If you know those three things, you just enter them into the ballistic program directly.
JBM's DA page exists for the purpose of building those cards. Having a ballistic program where one enters the DA is otherwise simply redundant.
It can also obscure the fact that muzzle velocity is solely a function of temperature, but there are many combinations of temperature, humidity, and pressure which result in the same DA.
If you enter only the DA into a ballistic program in the field, you may be computing a shot for a different muzzle velocity than you will have. You must compensate for the temperature, and if you're going to do that, you might as well just enter all 3 quantities which are used in the calculation of air density.
Re: Best software for density altitude
Has anyone else used Patagonia Ballistics? How does it compare to JBM?
Has anyone else used Patagonia Ballistics? How does it compare to JBM?
Re: Best software for density altitude
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1a convert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone else used Patagonia Ballistics? How does it compare to JBM?</div></div>
Patagonia Loadbase 3.0 is very accurate, it actually calculates a lot of the things other programs use a flat rate for, so when you change things like your zero range, LB3 actually calculates the changes.
I have found when using a new bullet, and working up basic information it is probably the closest to right without going in and tweaking the program extensively. I think their engine is one of the better engines out there. And there library is second to none, it is constantly updated and has a lot of information for the shooter who not only wants the ballistic calculator to be have as much details about a particular bullet as possible.
The support is outstanding and you can figure at least a new update via email every month.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1a convert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone else used Patagonia Ballistics? How does it compare to JBM?</div></div>
Patagonia Loadbase 3.0 is very accurate, it actually calculates a lot of the things other programs use a flat rate for, so when you change things like your zero range, LB3 actually calculates the changes.
I have found when using a new bullet, and working up basic information it is probably the closest to right without going in and tweaking the program extensively. I think their engine is one of the better engines out there. And there library is second to none, it is constantly updated and has a lot of information for the shooter who not only wants the ballistic calculator to be have as much details about a particular bullet as possible.
The support is outstanding and you can figure at least a new update via email every month.
Re: Best software for density altitude
A person who has Access to a ballistics program and a weather station like the Kestrel series, has the option to deal with flexibility.Instead of having to read and input 3 or 4 values, an operator can go with just one.
That simplifies things, which is the same purpose as using a DA card.
Moreover, in LB3M you have the option to calculate the ICAO Std Atmosphere values, which when only ALTITUDE is known, the use of the standard values is a very good way to deal with the unknown parameters.
While it’s true that by using DA you cannot give the program a Temperature value, needed to adjust the MV, that possibility cannot happen in LB3M since the program will raise a warning and automatically disable the adjustment in order to avoid any operator error.However, if you like the idea of carrying a printed DA table, LB3D will give you that option too.
All in all, the concept of DA is interesting when simplification is required.
Some high-end instruments like the Kestrel 4500, the Brunton ADC, gives the operator the DA value without additional steps.
Handy? Yes. Critical, No.
A person who has Access to a ballistics program and a weather station like the Kestrel series, has the option to deal with flexibility.Instead of having to read and input 3 or 4 values, an operator can go with just one.
That simplifies things, which is the same purpose as using a DA card.
Moreover, in LB3M you have the option to calculate the ICAO Std Atmosphere values, which when only ALTITUDE is known, the use of the standard values is a very good way to deal with the unknown parameters.
While it’s true that by using DA you cannot give the program a Temperature value, needed to adjust the MV, that possibility cannot happen in LB3M since the program will raise a warning and automatically disable the adjustment in order to avoid any operator error.However, if you like the idea of carrying a printed DA table, LB3D will give you that option too.
All in all, the concept of DA is interesting when simplification is required.
Some high-end instruments like the Kestrel 4500, the Brunton ADC, gives the operator the DA value without additional steps.
Handy? Yes. Critical, No.
Re: Best software for density altitude
It would appear you did not understand what I wrote. I'll try again.
Density altitude is computed from three quantites: the pressure, the temperature, and the relative humidity. Those are the same values which must be entered in order for the program to calculate air density. That's 3, not 4.
In order to get accuracy at long distances, the muzzle velocity you give the program must be accurate.
If you only give a ballistic program a density altitude, it does not know the temperature. It cannot, because there are many combinations of temperature, humidity, and pressure which result in the same density altitude.
Therefore, the muzzle velocity it uses for the calculation, which is <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">only</span></span> a function of temperature, cannot be accurate, unless you manually enter the correct muzzle velocity for the current temperature. Or, if the program calculates muzzle velocity as a function of temperature from data you have supplied to it, you must also enter the temperature.
If you do that, you are entering 2 values, which saves you only one entry from what you would enter if you were entering the temperature, humidity, and pressure, and allowing the program to calculate the correct muzzle velocity.
Entry of density altitude into a ballistic program offers a trivial advantage over entering the 3 air data values separately.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...you have the option to calculate the ICAO Std Atmosphere values, which when only ALTITUDE is known, the use of the standard values is a very good way to deal with the unknown parameters.</div></div>
Actually, it's not. Specifying an ICAO standard atmosphere setting for the physical altitude will almost guarantee that the wrong temperature and probably the pressure will be entered into the program. You can use the atmospheric pressure value, if you want, but you'd be a lot better off taking the temperature from a cheap zipper-pull thermometer and using 50 percent for the relative humidity value.
For example, right now I'm at sea level. According to the ICAO standard atmosphere, the BP is 29.92, the temperature is 59 degrees and the relative humidity is 0.
Unfortunately, the current temperature is 76 degrees, the barometric pressure is 30.1", and the relative humidity is 84 percent.
Using those ICAO SA values on a long shot will guarantee a miss.
If you want accuracy in a ballistic program, and you have a program which calculates muzzle velocity as a function of temperature, then entering the temperature, pressure, and relative humidty will help ensure the accuracy of a shot.
Entering the density altitude, and only the density altitude, will not.
The purpose of the concept of density altitude with respect to shooting is to build a data card which can be used in the field in the absence of a ballistic program.
It would appear you did not understand what I wrote. I'll try again.
Density altitude is computed from three quantites: the pressure, the temperature, and the relative humidity. Those are the same values which must be entered in order for the program to calculate air density. That's 3, not 4.
In order to get accuracy at long distances, the muzzle velocity you give the program must be accurate.
If you only give a ballistic program a density altitude, it does not know the temperature. It cannot, because there are many combinations of temperature, humidity, and pressure which result in the same density altitude.
Therefore, the muzzle velocity it uses for the calculation, which is <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">only</span></span> a function of temperature, cannot be accurate, unless you manually enter the correct muzzle velocity for the current temperature. Or, if the program calculates muzzle velocity as a function of temperature from data you have supplied to it, you must also enter the temperature.
If you do that, you are entering 2 values, which saves you only one entry from what you would enter if you were entering the temperature, humidity, and pressure, and allowing the program to calculate the correct muzzle velocity.
Entry of density altitude into a ballistic program offers a trivial advantage over entering the 3 air data values separately.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...you have the option to calculate the ICAO Std Atmosphere values, which when only ALTITUDE is known, the use of the standard values is a very good way to deal with the unknown parameters.</div></div>
Actually, it's not. Specifying an ICAO standard atmosphere setting for the physical altitude will almost guarantee that the wrong temperature and probably the pressure will be entered into the program. You can use the atmospheric pressure value, if you want, but you'd be a lot better off taking the temperature from a cheap zipper-pull thermometer and using 50 percent for the relative humidity value.
For example, right now I'm at sea level. According to the ICAO standard atmosphere, the BP is 29.92, the temperature is 59 degrees and the relative humidity is 0.
Unfortunately, the current temperature is 76 degrees, the barometric pressure is 30.1", and the relative humidity is 84 percent.
Using those ICAO SA values on a long shot will guarantee a miss.
If you want accuracy in a ballistic program, and you have a program which calculates muzzle velocity as a function of temperature, then entering the temperature, pressure, and relative humidty will help ensure the accuracy of a shot.
Entering the density altitude, and only the density altitude, will not.
The purpose of the concept of density altitude with respect to shooting is to build a data card which can be used in the field in the absence of a ballistic program.
Re: Best software for density altitude
Lindy,
Honestly I cannot see where is the divergence between what I wrote and your last post. We are basically on agreement over the fundamentals.
I said 3 or 4 input values, depending on the obvious fact of having at hand, Station or Barometric Pressure.
Maybe I was not clear enough, but you know better.
I agree, you need Temperature for adjusting the Muzzle Velocity, if the program allows for that. My mention was just related to how LB3M handles that situation, nothing else. Of course, without additional data there is no way to deduce the Temperature from DA.
Simplicity is still there, you enter 1 parameter instead of the usual 3 or 4, if your instrument yields DA.
Of course, nothing wrong with having to enter 3 or 4 values, after all, not everybody has access to a high-end Kestrel 4500 or a Brunton ADC.
On using “standard values for altitude” check Sierra’s manuals. There you’ll find a very good discussion on that subject.
Perfect ? not at all, but close and enough to make a shot, when you only know just ALTITUDE. For short to medium range engagements it works like a charm.
After all, having more flexibility built-in your favorite program is not a bad thing. It’s the operator choice to use them or not.
I see your point on how to effectively use DA, what I don’t see is the need to relegate it to printed cards only.
BTW, your article on making DA cards is a must-to-read.
Lindy,
Honestly I cannot see where is the divergence between what I wrote and your last post. We are basically on agreement over the fundamentals.
I said 3 or 4 input values, depending on the obvious fact of having at hand, Station or Barometric Pressure.
Maybe I was not clear enough, but you know better.
I agree, you need Temperature for adjusting the Muzzle Velocity, if the program allows for that. My mention was just related to how LB3M handles that situation, nothing else. Of course, without additional data there is no way to deduce the Temperature from DA.
Simplicity is still there, you enter 1 parameter instead of the usual 3 or 4, if your instrument yields DA.
Of course, nothing wrong with having to enter 3 or 4 values, after all, not everybody has access to a high-end Kestrel 4500 or a Brunton ADC.
On using “standard values for altitude” check Sierra’s manuals. There you’ll find a very good discussion on that subject.
Perfect ? not at all, but close and enough to make a shot, when you only know just ALTITUDE. For short to medium range engagements it works like a charm.
After all, having more flexibility built-in your favorite program is not a bad thing. It’s the operator choice to use them or not.
I see your point on how to effectively use DA, what I don’t see is the need to relegate it to printed cards only.
BTW, your article on making DA cards is a must-to-read.
Re: Best software for density altitude
You keep saying "3 or 4 values".
Three is not four. You appear to be saying four simply to increase the number of values which must be entered relative to density altitude. Three is three.
With respect to using ICAO Standard Atmosphere values, using the standard <span style="font-style: italic">pressure</span> for your altitude is fine, if you have no other figure to input.
Using the standard <span style="font-style: italic">temperature</span> is a mistake. Don't do that. The ICAO Standard Atmosphere models the temperature of the air as you increase in altitude <span style="font-style: italic">away for the earth,</span> based on the assumption that the temperature at sea level is 59 degrees. The temperature at sea level is rarely 59 degrees.
In addition, the temperature of the air where we are shooting, during the daytime, is warmed by the sun. The temperature lapse rate of the ICAO Standard Atmosphere is designed to reflect the decrease in temperature in air which is not warmed by the sun hitting the earth.
In general, you'll be better off simply guessing the air temperature than you will using the air temperature of the ICAO Standard Atmosphere for your physical altitude. But a $5 zipper-pull thermometer is better still.
Loadbase and some other programs can calculate an approximation for muzzle velocity as a function of temperature. If you have a Kestrel, use that calculation, if you have gathered the information necessary to do so, and enter the pressure, temperature, and relative humidity so that the muzzle velocity will be correct.
If you don't know how your muzzle velocity changes with temperature, better find out, if you expect accurate results. With a program which doesn't do the muzzle velocity calculation, you'll have to manually enter the muzzle velocity appropriate to the current temperature.
Similarly, you'll be better off entering 50 percent for relative humidity than using the zero which the ICAO SA is based on.
Flexibility is good. Having choices which leads to incorrect results is not.
A ballistic program in the field can increase the chances on a first-round hit on a distant target.
Throwing away information which increases the accuracy of that prediction is unwise, and that's exactly what you are doing when you enter density altitude instead of temperature, pressure, and relative humidty.
You keep saying "3 or 4 values".
Three is not four. You appear to be saying four simply to increase the number of values which must be entered relative to density altitude. Three is three.
With respect to using ICAO Standard Atmosphere values, using the standard <span style="font-style: italic">pressure</span> for your altitude is fine, if you have no other figure to input.
Using the standard <span style="font-style: italic">temperature</span> is a mistake. Don't do that. The ICAO Standard Atmosphere models the temperature of the air as you increase in altitude <span style="font-style: italic">away for the earth,</span> based on the assumption that the temperature at sea level is 59 degrees. The temperature at sea level is rarely 59 degrees.
In addition, the temperature of the air where we are shooting, during the daytime, is warmed by the sun. The temperature lapse rate of the ICAO Standard Atmosphere is designed to reflect the decrease in temperature in air which is not warmed by the sun hitting the earth.
In general, you'll be better off simply guessing the air temperature than you will using the air temperature of the ICAO Standard Atmosphere for your physical altitude. But a $5 zipper-pull thermometer is better still.
Loadbase and some other programs can calculate an approximation for muzzle velocity as a function of temperature. If you have a Kestrel, use that calculation, if you have gathered the information necessary to do so, and enter the pressure, temperature, and relative humidity so that the muzzle velocity will be correct.
If you don't know how your muzzle velocity changes with temperature, better find out, if you expect accurate results. With a program which doesn't do the muzzle velocity calculation, you'll have to manually enter the muzzle velocity appropriate to the current temperature.
Similarly, you'll be better off entering 50 percent for relative humidity than using the zero which the ICAO SA is based on.
Flexibility is good. Having choices which leads to incorrect results is not.
A ballistic program in the field can increase the chances on a first-round hit on a distant target.
Throwing away information which increases the accuracy of that prediction is unwise, and that's exactly what you are doing when you enter density altitude instead of temperature, pressure, and relative humidty.
Re: Best software for density altitude
Lindy,
I kept saying “3 or 4” because those are the options to enter the atmospheric parameters, then calculate the Air Density Ratio (ADR).
I never meant that “3 or 4” was in regards to the values requested to compute DA. If you have an instrument that yields DA, you only have to input a single value to calculate the ADR. That’s was the whole point of the original post, if I’m not wrong.
For short to medium ranges a difference of 20°F (+/-) will result in a POI difference of about 5.0 inches (+/-) at 1000 yards, for the same Station Pressure.
I agree, if you want the most accurate output then an instrument is required, but if there is no availability, the ICAO Standard Values will still be “good enough”.
Flexibility must come with knowledge and responsibility. There is no program in the world that can bypass the lack of those factors.
If you DA is accurately measured by the instrument or correctly calculated by the algorithm, then the ADR is the same as using the typical atmospheric parameters and there is nothing to give up in terms of accurate outputs.
I really appreciate your input and your website is worth checking for any one serious about ballistics. Please keep up the good work!
Lindy,
I kept saying “3 or 4” because those are the options to enter the atmospheric parameters, then calculate the Air Density Ratio (ADR).
I never meant that “3 or 4” was in regards to the values requested to compute DA. If you have an instrument that yields DA, you only have to input a single value to calculate the ADR. That’s was the whole point of the original post, if I’m not wrong.
For short to medium ranges a difference of 20°F (+/-) will result in a POI difference of about 5.0 inches (+/-) at 1000 yards, for the same Station Pressure.
I agree, if you want the most accurate output then an instrument is required, but if there is no availability, the ICAO Standard Values will still be “good enough”.
Flexibility must come with knowledge and responsibility. There is no program in the world that can bypass the lack of those factors.
If you DA is accurately measured by the instrument or correctly calculated by the algorithm, then the ADR is the same as using the typical atmospheric parameters and there is nothing to give up in terms of accurate outputs.
I really appreciate your input and your website is worth checking for any one serious about ballistics. Please keep up the good work!
Re: Best software for density altitude
Your attempt at Proof by Repeated Assertion is not working.
Entering atmospheric pressure, temperature, and humidity is three entries, not four. I assume anyone still reading this thread can count.
I explained in detail why using the ICAO Standard Atmospheric values for temperature and humidity will not work to produce an accurate prediction for a long shot.
I'm sorry that you seem to be incapable of understanding what are actually relatively simple facts.
So, I give up on you.
For anyone else who is using a ballistic program in the field which accepts air density parameters in the form of a density altitude, do not enter the density altitude if you want the maximum possible accuracy from your program. Enter the atmospheric pressure - preferably the station pressure - temperature, and relative humidity directly.
Don't forget to compensate for muzzle velocity variation with temperature, either manually or using a program feature.
I'm done here.
Your attempt at Proof by Repeated Assertion is not working.
Entering atmospheric pressure, temperature, and humidity is three entries, not four. I assume anyone still reading this thread can count.
I explained in detail why using the ICAO Standard Atmospheric values for temperature and humidity will not work to produce an accurate prediction for a long shot.
I'm sorry that you seem to be incapable of understanding what are actually relatively simple facts.
So, I give up on you.
For anyone else who is using a ballistic program in the field which accepts air density parameters in the form of a density altitude, do not enter the density altitude if you want the maximum possible accuracy from your program. Enter the atmospheric pressure - preferably the station pressure - temperature, and relative humidity directly.
Don't forget to compensate for muzzle velocity variation with temperature, either manually or using a program feature.
I'm done here.
Re: Best software for density altitude
Lindy,
If you have <span style="font-weight: bold">Station Pressure</span>, then you enter 3 parameters. (SP, Temp and Humidity)
If you have <span style="font-weight: bold">Barometric Pressure</span>, then you have to enter 4. Being ALTITUDE the fourth.
If you have a direct <span style="font-weight: bold">DA</span> reading from your instrument, you have a <span style="color: #CC0000">single value </span>to enter.
Am I clear enough now, at least for you…?
I gave a clear example of POI shift due to TEMP only. Not clear enough? What else do you need to make a point?
Ok… you don’t like DA on ballistics programs. Is that your whole argument?
Well, I like to have the DA option at hand. It gives me something to play with.
Lindy,
If you have <span style="font-weight: bold">Station Pressure</span>, then you enter 3 parameters. (SP, Temp and Humidity)
If you have <span style="font-weight: bold">Barometric Pressure</span>, then you have to enter 4. Being ALTITUDE the fourth.
If you have a direct <span style="font-weight: bold">DA</span> reading from your instrument, you have a <span style="color: #CC0000">single value </span>to enter.
Am I clear enough now, at least for you…?
I gave a clear example of POI shift due to TEMP only. Not clear enough? What else do you need to make a point?
Ok… you don’t like DA on ballistics programs. Is that your whole argument?
Well, I like to have the DA option at hand. It gives me something to play with.
Re: Best software for density altitude
If you have a Kestrel or other instrument which calculates density altitude, you <span style="font-weight: bold">also</span> have the station pressure, which you should always enter rather than the barometric pressure, and you will never enter the altitude.
If you don't have a Kestrel or other instrument, you don't have the density altitude, either, and we're no longer discussing density altitude, but how to enter barometric pressure, which is discussed in Barometric Pressure and Ballistic Software.
In a situation where one has a Density Altitude dope card, but no Kestrel and no ballistic program, one may wish to consult Manual Calculation of Density Altitude.
If you have a Kestrel or other instrument which calculates density altitude, you <span style="font-weight: bold">also</span> have the station pressure, which you should always enter rather than the barometric pressure, and you will never enter the altitude.
If you don't have a Kestrel or other instrument, you don't have the density altitude, either, and we're no longer discussing density altitude, but how to enter barometric pressure, which is discussed in Barometric Pressure and Ballistic Software.
In a situation where one has a Density Altitude dope card, but no Kestrel and no ballistic program, one may wish to consult Manual Calculation of Density Altitude.
Re: Best software for density altitude
Lindy,
That’s exactly what I was saying in my last posts…seems to me a new reading is in order.
Yet, it’s important to recognize, the fact that ICAO Standard Values, are worth to have when nothing else is available but ALTITUDE.
DA printed cards have their place, of course, but you still need more parameters to enter.
Never enter the altitude? Why not?
Some instruments are not prone to good calibration or don’t have the feature to yield SP.
Ok, enough for me!
Lindy, it's a shame you and I can't get in the same dimension. I was just beginning to like you!
Lindy,
That’s exactly what I was saying in my last posts…seems to me a new reading is in order.
Yet, it’s important to recognize, the fact that ICAO Standard Values, are worth to have when nothing else is available but ALTITUDE.
DA printed cards have their place, of course, but you still need more parameters to enter.
Never enter the altitude? Why not?
Some instruments are not prone to good calibration or don’t have the feature to yield SP.
Ok, enough for me!
Lindy, it's a shame you and I can't get in the same dimension. I was just beginning to like you!
Re: Best software for density altitude
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some instruments are not prone to good calibration or don’t have the feature to yield SP.</div></div>
Please point out to me a single instrument which calculates density altitude, but cannot display station pressure.
Density altitude is calculated from station pressure, temperature, and relative humidity.
If the calibration of the pressure sensor is off, then the calculated density altitude will be off.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yet, it’s important to recognize, the fact that ICAO Standard Values, are worth to have when nothing else is available but ALTITUDE.</div></div>
The only value from the ICAO Standard Atmosphere which may be usable, in the absence of another instrument, is the pressure.
The temperature of the ICAO Standard Atmosphere should never be used. The ICAO Standard atmosphere assumes the humidity is zero, which is always wrong.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some instruments are not prone to good calibration or don’t have the feature to yield SP.</div></div>
Please point out to me a single instrument which calculates density altitude, but cannot display station pressure.
Density altitude is calculated from station pressure, temperature, and relative humidity.
If the calibration of the pressure sensor is off, then the calculated density altitude will be off.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yet, it’s important to recognize, the fact that ICAO Standard Values, are worth to have when nothing else is available but ALTITUDE.</div></div>
The only value from the ICAO Standard Atmosphere which may be usable, in the absence of another instrument, is the pressure.
The temperature of the ICAO Standard Atmosphere should never be used. The ICAO Standard atmosphere assumes the humidity is zero, which is always wrong.
Re: Best software for density altitude
“For short to medium ranges a difference of 20°F (+/-) will result in a POI difference of about 5.0 inches (+/-) at 1000 yards, for the same Station Pressure”
Anything else? Is that so hard to grasp?
BTW, basic models of many makes do not feature SP / BP option, less DA.
“For short to medium ranges a difference of 20°F (+/-) will result in a POI difference of about 5.0 inches (+/-) at 1000 yards, for the same Station Pressure”
Anything else? Is that so hard to grasp?
BTW, basic models of many makes do not feature SP / BP option, less DA.
Re: Best software for density altitude
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For short to medium ranges a difference of 20°F (+/-) will result in a POI difference of about 5.0 inches (+/-) at 1000 yards, for the same Station Pressure.</div></div>
One thousand yards is neither a short nor a medium range.
That's one of those rules of thumb which may be right, but may also be very wrong, depending on the load.
For my .308 load, for example, a 20 degree rise in temperature from 59 degrees to 79 degrees results in a 16" decrease in POI on a 1000 yard shot if the barometric pressure is 29.92 inches at sea level. Many loads are more temperature sensitive. Very few are less so.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, basic models of many makes do not feature SP / BP option, less DA.</div></div>
Basic models of what? My Casio Pathfinder watch measures and displays station pressure.
The original poster's question, though, was <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What software is the best software to use if someone is going to use density altitude for their calculations?</div></div>
So your comment is irrelevant.
But the answer is, the best software for producing a printed Density Altitude dope table to use in the field is JBM Ballistics.
If you have a PDA or other device running a ballistic program in the field, and you have a device which calculates DA, you also have a device which measures and displays station pressure, temperature, and humidity, so you don't need the DA, and there are good reasons not to use it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For short to medium ranges a difference of 20°F (+/-) will result in a POI difference of about 5.0 inches (+/-) at 1000 yards, for the same Station Pressure.</div></div>
One thousand yards is neither a short nor a medium range.
That's one of those rules of thumb which may be right, but may also be very wrong, depending on the load.
For my .308 load, for example, a 20 degree rise in temperature from 59 degrees to 79 degrees results in a 16" decrease in POI on a 1000 yard shot if the barometric pressure is 29.92 inches at sea level. Many loads are more temperature sensitive. Very few are less so.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, basic models of many makes do not feature SP / BP option, less DA.</div></div>
Basic models of what? My Casio Pathfinder watch measures and displays station pressure.
The original poster's question, though, was <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What software is the best software to use if someone is going to use density altitude for their calculations?</div></div>
So your comment is irrelevant.
But the answer is, the best software for producing a printed Density Altitude dope table to use in the field is JBM Ballistics.
If you have a PDA or other device running a ballistic program in the field, and you have a device which calculates DA, you also have a device which measures and displays station pressure, temperature, and humidity, so you don't need the DA, and there are good reasons not to use it.
Re: Best software for density altitude
We can go forever posting different examples and the main argument will remain the same.
If nothing else but ALTITUDE is available, go with the ICAO “Standard Values for Altitude” that’s basic common sense.
For a typical .308 Winchester load at 500 yards (is that short or medium in Lindy’s encyclopedia ?) the difference due to a 20°F (+/-) variation, for the same SP, will result in a POI difference of about 1.5 inches and less than 17.0 inches at 1000 yards. Not bad in any book when nothing else is available and the shot needs to be taken.
For the typical Magnum load, the POI shift is much less as shown in the previous example.
I like DA, you don’t. Big deal!
We can go forever posting different examples and the main argument will remain the same.
If nothing else but ALTITUDE is available, go with the ICAO “Standard Values for Altitude” that’s basic common sense.
For a typical .308 Winchester load at 500 yards (is that short or medium in Lindy’s encyclopedia ?) the difference due to a 20°F (+/-) variation, for the same SP, will result in a POI difference of about 1.5 inches and less than 17.0 inches at 1000 yards. Not bad in any book when nothing else is available and the shot needs to be taken.
For the typical Magnum load, the POI shift is much less as shown in the previous example.
I like DA, you don’t. Big deal!
Re: Best software for density altitude
You keep correcting your badly stated arguments, and dropping the ones which are wrong, and I'll get you straightened out yet. Keep up the good work.
To shoot to 600 yards on steel - or a human-sized target - anytime, anyplace, I don't need a ballistic program or a dope table. I know what my dope is for that short a distance.
And you err if you think that I don't like DA. If that were true, I'd hardly have gone to the trouble to write two web pages - linked below - on how to use it.
But it isn't needed by a person who has a ballistic program in the field.
Abe Maslow said, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail."
A given tool doesn't work for all problems, and DA entry into a ballistic program in the field is one of those.
Making Ballistic Cards Using Density Altitude
Manual Calculation of Density Altitude
You keep correcting your badly stated arguments, and dropping the ones which are wrong, and I'll get you straightened out yet. Keep up the good work.
To shoot to 600 yards on steel - or a human-sized target - anytime, anyplace, I don't need a ballistic program or a dope table. I know what my dope is for that short a distance.
And you err if you think that I don't like DA. If that were true, I'd hardly have gone to the trouble to write two web pages - linked below - on how to use it.
But it isn't needed by a person who has a ballistic program in the field.
Abe Maslow said, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail."
A given tool doesn't work for all problems, and DA entry into a ballistic program in the field is one of those.
Making Ballistic Cards Using Density Altitude
Manual Calculation of Density Altitude
Re: Best software for density altitude
Lindy,
Now we are talking!
Since you don’t need a ballistics program, table or else, where are your arguments so far?
I’d like to see you in a situation to make a shot at say, 10000 feet, without any other resource than a quite basic ICAO table and your altitude, coming out of a topo map. No instruments…nothing at all.
Consider 500, 600 or even 1000 yards.
Short, Medium or Long? Well, that is something I need to check in Lindy’s encyclopedia. LOL!
Is an ICAO table a perfect replacement for an instrument, tables or ballistics programs?
No, it’s not. But is there to help a lot if nothing else is on hand.
I said that many times, but you need to read it one more time.
A little piece of advice, instead of trying to make others look wrong, please check your own arguments and don’t change the focus every two posts.
Read not one, but three times at least what I said before…and read your posts, carefully, before posting them.
Lindy,
Now we are talking!
Since you don’t need a ballistics program, table or else, where are your arguments so far?
I’d like to see you in a situation to make a shot at say, 10000 feet, without any other resource than a quite basic ICAO table and your altitude, coming out of a topo map. No instruments…nothing at all.
Consider 500, 600 or even 1000 yards.
Short, Medium or Long? Well, that is something I need to check in Lindy’s encyclopedia. LOL!
Is an ICAO table a perfect replacement for an instrument, tables or ballistics programs?
No, it’s not. But is there to help a lot if nothing else is on hand.
I said that many times, but you need to read it one more time.
A little piece of advice, instead of trying to make others look wrong, please check your own arguments and don’t change the focus every two posts.
Read not one, but three times at least what I said before…and read your posts, carefully, before posting them.
Re: Best software for density altitude
Eaglet, you might wish to learn to read carefully.
You wrote: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you don’t need a ballistics program, table or else, where are your arguments so far?</div></div>
What I said was, <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To shoot to 600 yards on steel - or a human-sized target - anytime, anyplace, I don't need a ballistic program or a dope table.</div></div>
Simple English. And that's because I memorized the dope for my load for those ranges, and I know how it changes with conditions. Six hundred yards and less are <span style="font-style: italic">short or medium</span> ranges for a precision rifle.
You wrote: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is an ICAO table a perfect replacement for an instrument, tables or ballistics programs? No, it’s not. But is there to help a lot if nothing else is on hand.</div></div>
Despite the bad grammar, I agree - almost - but what I said was<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only value from the ICAO Standard Atmosphere which may be usable, in the absence of another instrument, is the pressure.
The temperature of the ICAO Standard Atmosphere should never be used. The ICAO Standard atmosphere assumes the humidity is zero, which is always wrong.</div></div>
So, we're getting closer.
Eaglet, you might wish to learn to read carefully.
You wrote: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you don’t need a ballistics program, table or else, where are your arguments so far?</div></div>
What I said was, <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To shoot to 600 yards on steel - or a human-sized target - anytime, anyplace, I don't need a ballistic program or a dope table.</div></div>
Simple English. And that's because I memorized the dope for my load for those ranges, and I know how it changes with conditions. Six hundred yards and less are <span style="font-style: italic">short or medium</span> ranges for a precision rifle.
You wrote: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is an ICAO table a perfect replacement for an instrument, tables or ballistics programs? No, it’s not. But is there to help a lot if nothing else is on hand.</div></div>
Despite the bad grammar, I agree - almost - but what I said was<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only value from the ICAO Standard Atmosphere which may be usable, in the absence of another instrument, is the pressure.
The temperature of the ICAO Standard Atmosphere should never be used. The ICAO Standard atmosphere assumes the humidity is zero, which is always wrong.</div></div>
So, we're getting closer.
Re: Best software for density altitude
Lindy,
I considered this a clean, respectful debate, but obviously you enjoy too much to make others feel bad and make them look stupid. I have given you the opportunity to do that but you have not been very successful. Truly amazes me the bad grammar comment. It is indicative, amongst many other things, of an inability to communicate without offending others. Truly I’m proud of how well I speak and write both, English and Spanish, and when I make a mistake in either language is just expected of human beings to make mistakes. I believe you would agree that our dialog has come to its end.
Sincerely,
Eaglet
Lindy,
I considered this a clean, respectful debate, but obviously you enjoy too much to make others feel bad and make them look stupid. I have given you the opportunity to do that but you have not been very successful. Truly amazes me the bad grammar comment. It is indicative, amongst many other things, of an inability to communicate without offending others. Truly I’m proud of how well I speak and write both, English and Spanish, and when I make a mistake in either language is just expected of human beings to make mistakes. I believe you would agree that our dialog has come to its end.
Sincerely,
Eaglet
Re: Best software for density altitude
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I believe you would agree that our dialog has come to its end.</div></div>
Agreed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I believe you would agree that our dialog has come to its end.</div></div>
Agreed.
