PRS Talk Best technics to get really stable ( standing / low standing / high kneeling)

5

5Baize

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Jan 19, 2021
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#1
I have been shooting a few PRS matches (7) over the last couple of years. I have improved quite a lot from my first one.

But I have reached a plateau.

Low positions I'm OK, I get stable and therefore can spot my impacts / misses.

But higher positions when I have too much wobble I can't control enough to really spot myself...

I can see 2 approaches with the weak hand:

1- Grap the bag and apply pressure from the thumb onto either the sides of the chassis /weights or a plate / wings.

2- use it on the scope or diving board to stabilise ( often seen on pictures of people using Foundation stocks).

Would you mind sharing the pro and cons of each approach and the details for each that make it work for you? Any fine details you realised made a huge difference?

I'm more a number one option guy so far, but not really happy with the results. I've just been viewing Keith Baker MDT video and will try locking my wrist more positively

Where do you grab the bag ( front face, side, corner?)

For option 2: can you get it to work without a descent support for the elbow? Like on a cattle barrier or something slim like that?

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience
 
#2
I'm not expert, but I tend to stabilize the scope against the barricade if I can. Seems to help.

If not there, then I try and push down on my Grey Ops plate

Again, I'm no expert, so I expect I'm not doing it right myself.

M
 
#3
Hell, I’m still figuring all this out myself…

I use a Sykes Clutch (thumb stud thingy that clips into a QD mount for my weak hand). I also use a Gray Ops plate attached to my arca rail and a Schmedium (heavy fill mostly, but just got one with Git-lite for matches where we’re walking a lot between stages carrying all of our gear).

I plop the Schmedium down on the prop, give it a karate chop or two with my hand to settle it into place, then drop the rifle on top. The Sykes Clutch is about even with the front end of the Gray Ops plate, which is even with the front face of the Schmedium. Hook thumb over the Sykes Clutch and grab the front of the Schmedium with my fingers and squeeze. So I guess that’s the OP’s #1. I also try to get my body square behind the gun. If shooting from a high position I have my feet spread as wide a part as I need to so I don’t have to bend my knees. For a high kneel, I like to kneel with both knees down and spread wide. If low-kneel, I’ll take a knee with my support side knee but keep my strong side knee up to support my elbow.

If shooting off a ladder rung, sometimes I put my support hand on top of the scope and use my fingers to create tension between the scope and the next ladder rung above. So kinda the OP’s #2. But majority of the time I think I do #1.

But if there aren’t any gear restrictions or too many position changes I’ll use my tripod for rear support In which case my support hand is clamping the buttstock to the tripod leg.
 
#4
I spent a number of years shooting with both option #1 and #2, currently use #2 since it fits better with the Foundation stock I'm shooting. I don't think I noticed any major difference between the two as far as stability.

The number one thing IMO to work on is the stability and stillness of your own upper body/torso. No matter how you hold the bag/rifle with your support hand, if you have some movement in your body that will transfer to the rifle once you connect the buttstock to your shoulder. If you can't get yourself stable then the tendency is to disconnect from the rifle (free-ish recoil) then you don't have a good view of what happens with the bullet after recoil. If you're connected to the rifle you can focus on pulling the trigger cleanly and letting the rifle track straight back on recoil squarely into your shoulder.

Dryfire is a great way to work on this. Get yourself a super rickety prop and practice getting into position... square up, stacked bones/joints, NPA, connect shoulder to the rifle, reelaaaaxx, and try to get the reticle wobble to stop moving. My rickety prop for dry firing is an old wooden step ladder that I got off craigslist and pulled out all the metal support brackets. I use a more stable prop for live fire practice since I don't like getting in the bad habit of timing the trigger pull to the wobble (slapping the trigger).
 
#5
If I'm using a more free recoil technique, then I put my hand on scope rings and press straight down. The balance point is going to be a fulcrum for the rifle during recoil. Since you're letting the rifle do all the work due to its balance and such, it only makes sense that you want the pressure to be down into the bag. If you apply pressure anywhere else, you'll have wobble.

If I'm using a more recoil management technique, then my hand is out on the rifle/bag. Since I'll now be part of the stability of the rifle (as opposed to not being part of stability for free recoil), I'll be using my support hand, shoulder, and firing hand (sometimes not the firing hand as small 6mm don't need that rearward pressure like a magnum type cartridge). So, I want to start applying pressure from both ends so that the rifle gets locked into position to manage the incoming recoil.


In the end, you have to think about what you're trying to accomplish with the position you are building. You don't want to mix techniques that are at odds with one another. For example, even if you're more free recoiling, you can still put your hand on the forearm/bag....but you need to make sure you're not applying much if any pressure. Since that will cause the rifle to pivot on the balance point like a fulcrum.
 
#6
Sheldon hit the nail on the head. It took me a few years but it finally clicked after getting some formal training. NPA and learning how to get your body stable is going to reduce your wobble zone while having a good rifle/connection and follow through will allow you to spot your shot.

Free recoil is a crutch of poor/newer shooters. There are situations where you have to shoot FR but they are the rare exception. Without follow through you are more likely to snap/snatch and throw a shot. You also will not be able to get back on target fast enough to spot your shot which is critical if you want to be decent at this game. You can see improvements but just like what you are dealing with, you plateau fast. 7 matches is still really new when you consider guys you are trying to compete with have shot hundreds of matches over many years. I would look at getting some good fundamental training which is going to be your best bang for buck in teaching those skills. Npa, trigger control, follow through, building/ breaking positions and reading basic wind conditions would be where I would focus.

Sheldon is one of the more thoughtful shooters and his drills and practice techniques are some of the best I have seen, and similar to what alot of the top shooters/trainers teach. Practice building and breaking positions, even with dry fire. Shoot 1" dot drills at 100. Paper doesn't lie.

You are never going to eliminate wobble, just need to learn to ignore it honestly. Build the most stable position and work on minimizing it. Have to put in the time if you want to see improvement.
 
#7
I use "free recoil" even though it's not truly free recoil. I start with no cheek pressure and minimal pressure from my shoulder and then back off until there is no wobble. When using my Foundations, I use hand over scope. I recently went to using the ACC Elite and have moved to using my off hand up on the forend. Either technique works but effect recoil in different ways.

"Free recoil" gets a bad rap but in my mind if I'm not 100% stable with zero wobble, I cannot be certain of the needed corrections. As targets continue to get smaller, perfect stability becomes even more important.
 
#8

Almost every top shooter in PRS is using free recoil. They aren't standing beside the rifle and pinching the trigger (some may think that is what is meant by free recoil). They are "on" the rifle, but with minimal or no influence from their cheek or shoulder. That's the whole reason rifles are 22lbs now.

Talk to any top guys, listen to jtac podcast, go to their class, etc. They use and teach free recoil.
 
#10

I'm aware. I've been to a JTAC class (it's where I got the technique) and have on a couple of occasions been fortunate enough to find myself in the top 25 at a two day and have a few local/regional trophies on my wall.

The point I was attempting to make and should have been more clear about is that the technique used for your support hand isn't as important if you're not on point with your firing hand, cheek and shoulder technique. On a Foundation I use hand over scope because the length of pull is too long to go out on the forend. On the Elite I can get out on the forend while still maintaining good technique and NPA. For me, that is more the determining factor over which support hand technique.
 
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#11
If you aren't driving the gun and managing the recoil, you aren't spotting your shots. 22lbs is pretty light..alot of guys running more like 25 lbs and it's not so they can shoot FR, it's so it's stable on barricades. ( ask Sheldon how much his gun weighs lol) It's extremely difficult to get consistent shots if you are doing nothing but FR. You will throw shots due to lack of follow through and the bad habits they instil. It's a tool for certain situations where the alternative options are worse.

Pressure on cheekrest has nothing to do with free recoil. It has to do with placement and connection to buttplate in the clavicle and driving the gun. If your gun is setup correctly your head will naturally be In higher position and not pushing down. Most people have way too long of a lop and poor gun setup which will hinder them in positional. Setting a gun up for prone shooting is a mistake.

If the OP is going to listen to anyone..listen to the pro prs shooter who has regional wins, national wins and has shot in the last 4/5 prs finalizes.

Rio needs to stick to building gun in his shed or whatever the fuck he does.
 
#13
You know how hard it is to lookup your FFL. Find your name, your house that the ffl is listed as right on the boarder of Mexico?

You shooting the Texas 2 day match next month? Come on up. We got a spot in squad 1 you can show us how it's done.
 
#14

There's more than one owner moron. LOL. I'm not Danny Garcia.

And yes, I've been signed up in Squad 8 for quite a while. Took a couple years off and going to start shooting matches again in 2024. Hopefully add a two day win this to the regional wins from past years. Being this far down in Texas makes it quite the pain in the ass to travel.
 
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#15
@5Baize I'd recommend listening to the JTAC podcast linked above or better yet take one of their classes. There's a reason they win as often as they do.

MDT also released a good video short on their YouTube about free recoil.

There is a huge misconception that you can't see your shots while free recoiling. It's BS. I see the vast majority of my shots. If I go hand over scope the target ends up being in the lower right quadrant of my scope. If i go hand forward, the target is usually straight down or slightly into the lower right quadrant.
 
#16

Back when 18lbs was considered a heavy rifle, free recoiling was a bit more taboo. You only utilized it on shaky props or low wind days.

If weight was just for balance and riding on bags, we'd still be using 18lb rifles and running 6mm at 2900-3100fps. Our rifles are now setup to make free recoiling the standard and not the exception.
 
#17
Go ask Morgan King if he is free recoiling. Or Chad heckler or any number of other top shooters like Kahl or Peterson who both won their divsions this year and train more people per year than everyone from jtac combined.

Go shoot a 6.5cm slinging 156s or a 308 with 175s or a 25 creed or any number of calibers and see how that works.

Guys who are already at the top of the game can get away with alot of shit people like you and me and newer guys can't. We arent that good, we don't have have as refined a shot process nor the motor skills/ muscle memory.

Free recoil is a tool in the toolbox that should only be used when you have mastered everything else.

Telling a newer shooter to FR instead of learning the fundamentals of marksmanship and applying it to PRS is the dumbest and most harmful advice you could give someone. It's too bad you are not smart or wise enough to understand that.

Not everyone shoots a pussy fart 6mm in fact you are seeing more people migrate back to 6.5 and .25.
 
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#18
Thank you for your replies

Kind of difficult to navigate the various advice. But I'm reading interesting stuff.

I've already been through quite a few podcast and YouTube video, but not yet the JTAC. So that's good food for my brain.

Living abroad ( Europe) is more or less setting the courses options to 0.

One of the point is also probably the lack of regular time to train. I work offshore on vessels so for weeks at the time I don't have access to my rifle.

I've long period off, when I can train quite a lot, but always with fairly long period with no training.

I have subscribed to riflekraft 3 months ago and have not yet taken the time to send one target to review....

But keep commenting please.
 
#19

The best thing you can do is find proper instruction. If you haven't had proper instruction on fundamentals, start there. I'm not familiar with instructors in Europe. However, if you look at US instructors such as Frank Galli, Rifles Only, and a couple others, you want to find instructors with similar reputation for hammering fundamentals. Not sure why our resident dunce thinks anyone is telling you to skip that part, but he's always on some weird self important tangent.

Then move on to competition specific courses like JTAC in the US.
 
#20
Buy a DFAT and dry fire at home using the smallest targets on their scenes.

While doing this, experiment with different pressures on your rifle, and then write down the results.

Then go to the range and see if the dry fire pressures are transferable to live fire.

Keep what works and dismiss the rest.

Then practice until you can apply these pressures to your system with a time constraint.

-Stan (PRS Dabbler)
 
#21
I also think the PRS community should stop using the term Free Recoil as the rifle isn’t truly free.

I would call it Akido Recoil (blending with your opponent’s momentum) or Guided Recoil if something more professional is required.

-Stan
 
#23
My advice would be don't take advice from people on here who have been banned a time or two. My opinion listening to podcasts that pro shooters put out are almost like drinking from a fire hose for free. Lots of great techniques to learn from pro shooters content. Stability will come with time and repetitive practice. Do what you are comfortable with and just go have fun. Remember your biggest competition is yourself.
 
#24

A STATIC FRICTION fit is created because of TENSION created between the bullet and the undersized neck . A person educated on this laughs at all the other petty bullshit .
 
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#25

Swing and a miss yet again. The undersized neck isn't the only thing that contributes to the "tension." And, when people speak about "neck tension" in regards to ammunition, they are almost solely referring to the ID of the case mouth. Hence they are referring to the interference fit.

Which is why you can have two pieces of brass, with the same ID, but different neck wall thickness or lubrication, etc, etc. and they will have different seating and release measurements.

And if you want to get technical, tension isn't even the correct word for the stretching of the case neck when the bullet is inserted. Physics 101 definitions at play here. You would never use the word "tension" when referring to a friction or interference fit. Your interpretation of what you think you found on google is completely incorrect. Tension does not have anything to do with the friction. Tension force is only a pulling force. So you need a rope, chain, cable....etc. Since tension force is unable to push.

Friction and plastic deformation would be the two major things going on when you insert a bullet into an undersized neck.

Though I'm sure I'm mixing something up here. I'd defer to someone like @308pirate who is formally educated in such matters.


Thanks for playing.
 
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#26
For the OP, Sheldon's post is right on the money.

Get a solid work metal ladder, put a sandbag on the lowest rung, get a DFAT, targets, a work light, and setup where you will not be bothered.

Put your bag on the rung for standing, find a 1 mil target, and play with your body - hands - arms and pressures to get to where you have no wobble. It takes a lot of work.

It's like yoga or training for a hard climb. It takes TIME and effort.

Once you have no wobble on that target, go to .7, then .4 mil.

Now move back and dry fire. You want zero reticle movement when you press the trigger. You will have to play with your grip and finger. And other things.

Move down the target size.

Next is to get a timer, set the Par time to 30 s, and do two perfect shots with no wobble and no reticle movement. Move the target size down.

Now change the par time to 25 s, then 20, then until you can get the shots off in 15s.

Document your body pressures and process on a card. Now do the same for high, low, and sitting. Things will be different for each one. As you find things out, update your card for each. Document each training session. Think about everything you are doing.

Now move to a more rickety ladder ( remove sand bag) and repeat.

Now take it to the range. Start with standing and JUST do that that with dry fire, then spend some rounds - keeping all the nuances in your mind.

I guarantee that if you can do this, you will hit .4 mil targets all day at the range.
 
#28
Miles To Matches just put out a good episode on "driving" the rifle. It's very close to the version of "free recoil" that I've been using. Francis does a nice job of explaining what "driving" means to him.

As far as videos, watch the MDT YouTube page they do a lot of shorts. Also the biggest change Ken has made since becoming director of the PRS is releasing monthly stage breakdown videos, they can be very helpful.
 
#29
The guys at Modern Day Rifleman come to Europe. Pretty sure they’re making it a yearly event. Might want to check them out.
 
#30
Nice try , and nice spin . Funny , you have been quiet lately . Sucks when people realize you are a fraud . Great business strategy . :ROFLMAO:
 
#32
I took their class 2 months ago. Fixed my fundamentals and I cannot emphasize enough to anyone... if you aren't a formally trained sniper/marksman or very high level competitive shooter...you need to take their class. They took a decent shooter and in less than a week I was actually beating the instructors. All of them. Even if you think you are a good shooter...take the class. There are things you will take away that will make you better.

Hands down the best money /time you can spend. I kick myself in the ass for not doing this a few years ago when I started shooting competitively. It really hurt my development not having the all the nuance and details in shooting a precision rifle. Reading and watching videos only does so much. Hands on instruction where someone is watching your whole shot process and fixing all the little details is key. Doing this over a few days until you are naturally doing the right thing every time is your foundation. I cannot reccomend phill, caylen, ryan and John enough. John's not a sniper but he fixed my positional shooting by showing some techniques to lock out muscle/skeleton and get free stability. It's a game changer.
 
#34
Not a pro, not a centerfire guy, but I’ve experienced ability “ceilings”. What got me past was trying a SCATT (tool which records all rifle movement through the shot process and shows rifle trace, as well as timeline score possibilities). Fellow took one look at my shot string and said “you need to get on the trigger faster”. I was holding for “perfect”, but breaking the shot as the barrel was drifting away. That 5 minute session broke my score ceiling, enabling me to attain my goal.
Embrace your wobble, you won’t stop moving till you’re dead, so accept it and work with it. Read that you have to spend long times away from the rifle, ask if you can use a scope on a fake gun for dryfire practice. High magnification scopes in offhand positions will teach you how to cancel out the myriad of little wobbles and help shrink your “area of hold”. Master free-hand 4-P positions, and a barricade is just a bonus rest👍
 
#35
I am no pro, and but have been shooting a long time and here's what I have learned over the years.
First and something no one has mentioned, How is your(foundation)core and leg strength? The weaker your foundation is(back, abs, legs)the more wobble your going to have. You do not need to be a body builder or power lifter but a strong core/foundation is a huge help.

As a few have said here free recoil is a tool for certain situations and not something you should be taught or use all the time as a new shooter. You should first learn good fundamentals then add all the trick shit later. Strengthen your core and foundation while learn to drive your rifle with good fundamentals and you"ll loose a lot of that wobble and become a better shooter.
Training would be a big help as well because they will see problems or bad habits that you never knew you had and address them.
 
#36
I'm of a lanky type ( 6'2" / 185lbs), fit 51 year old. Core is no problem ( ( love my abs wheel). Legs could be stronger, but lock well. Very flexible overall.

Clearly from what I'm being told and hearing, some class should be money well spend.

I'll try to organise/ book something when I have more visibility about my next US working period in Q3/Q4.

Keep them coming, I'm reading
 
#37
Seriously yoga twice a week helped, combined with dryfire and practice getting into positions and on small targets and breaking a shot, picking a spot on a large target and "shrinking" the target area to a smaller one helps if you apply the technique properly.
 
#38
I went back to putting my hand over the scope. I tried the who putting my support hand and the forearm and it almost always pulled my shoulders out of alignment causing tension in my system.

Keeping unwanted tension out of your system helps keep you steady and allows the rifle to recoil straight to the rear.
 
#39

Are you using a short LoP? Shooting off props and such, you'll almost always be better with almost as short a LoP as a rifle will allow. Otherwise, it doesn't take much to get get off square.
 
#41
Depending on how you want to do things, Francis Colon will be releasing some m-lok thumb rest / shelves soon that may be of interest. I will be testing them this weekend at a regional match. I don't think he has them up on a web site yet but I'll post some pic's after the weekend once I get his go ahead.

I've tried the hand on scope as well... and it's great for certain positions but more often than not it doesn't change my shoulder position compared to just using the edge of the AAC elite with my thumb.
 
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#45
I had the same issue as above, also struggled to get directly behind the rifle in prone without messing up eye relief.

I found a video/article/podcast of Frank's that recommended shortening up the LOP.
Reduced my LOP by about 1" and it made a world of difference.
 
#46
Have you done any of their online stuff? They’re not often out this direction, looks like just a carbine course in Nov

I can’t find this - do you remember where this is?
 
#48
Check out Jimmy B. Rodriguez (formerly Jim's Goon Life) on YouTube. He's got a lot of different videos, some of them with Bruiser Industries, Ridgeline Defense, etc. His videography is pretty nice, usually includes different angles/viewpoints. He's more of an avid fan than a pro, but for getting the idea and seeing set ups there's notes to take.

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