Advanced Marksmanship Best technique for consistent .75 moa or less shooting from a tripod.

[SLG]

Silly title, I know.

I looked around at all the tripod threads I could find, but none had quite what I'm after here.

I'm familiar with several different techniques that various really good shooters like to use, and I have tried them. I keep coming back to my original technique, because it seems to work as well or better for me, and is a bit easier as well. Nothing original to me, just one leg towards target, other two back to me. Michael at RRS has a different technique, but it doesn't seem to offer me the same level of recoil control. I have no doubt it works for him. Same with some other options out there, but I don't want to name and describe them all. I only mention Michael because I don't doubt he knows how to shoot of a tripod, and it is his business to help educate his customers. It just doesn't seem to work that well for me. Maybe in person he could correct something I'm doing, IDK.

Anyway, I can shoot sub moa groups very consistently off of my RRS setup, but I want to know if anyone can shoot consistent .75 or better. Anyone down in the .5 moa range normally? I occasionally manage .75, but can't say it is a legit capability of mine. I test this on paper at 100 and 200, as well as on sub moa steel at 337. I have shot much further on a tripod, but it wasn't my range and I don't believe any of the targets were sub moa. Probably more like 2 moa.

The RRS is awesome, as all I have to do is clamp my gun in and go. With my old setups (Manfrottos and PIG's) the only way to get moa was with a sling and more practice than the RRS takes. Furthermore, with the RRS, it doesn't seem to matter if I use the Vyce, or go direct to the Anvil 30. Same results either way. I had hoped that the Anvil 30 would get me a little more precision, but again, maybe I'm not optimizing what I'm doing.

So, for those of you who love shooting off tripods, how precise can you regularly be? What technique allows you to shoot your best?

The pic is of a loaner tripod that convinced me to switch to RRS. Pricey, but awesome. First time I ever shot sub moa standing without having to sling up to the tripod.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Why do people stand with a tripod if there are options? Am I missing something?

When I use a tripod it is as low as I can make it. A flat mowed field like the photo? I am sitting. I am straight behind the rifle. I'll set up such that one leg is toward the target and 2 toward me. If I have to set the tripod on steep ground, one leg of the tripod is aligned with the fall line regardless of where the target is. If I can, I am slung. If I can, I will build a position - Indian style seating, a rear bag under my trigger hand elbow - providing a solid point of contact between that elbow and hip - all locked down. Weak side hand can vary, but often ends up resting on the tripod leg, or just at rest across my crossed legs. I want to be as low as I can and as stable as I can with just a slight forward lean into the rifle. If it is steep ground and I am askew to the fall line - the seating position can get funky but the result is the same.

Then again I had to shoot kneeling, butt on heels the other night because IR kept bouncing back at me off of tall grass, even still tripod, kneeling, butt on heels - 3pts of contact = sub MOA.

 

[SLG]

Why do people stand with a tripod if there are options? Am I missing something?

... kneeling, butt on heels - 3pts of contact sub MOA.

Because its harder, and it is training. Nothing in that field required a shot, it was just a practice afternoon.

Shooting from a low tripod position is cake, and I'm getting sub moa from standing. So...

 

[SLG]

Went out a few minutes ago and shot this target with a 6.5G gas gun. Should be readable, but I know I should have been a Dr

This was done at 100 yards, standing with the Vyce on top of the Anvil 30. I'll have to throw a pic rail back on the rear of the handguard and see if there is any meaningful difference with just the Anvil. Based on my other guns, probably not.

The top left group was 123 Hornady SST. The top right was 130 Federal Bergers, the 2nd down on the left was 123 SST's, but loaded from Precision Firearms.

My sling group was with a Tab Gear sling, and it was really too tight. This was traditional prone shooting with a sling, not off a tripod. used the 123's from PF. Shifted my group pretty far down from the diamond I was aiming at.

 

[wigwamitus]

... Why do people stand with a tripod if there are options? ...

Mostly on my land, I stand so I can see the target

I shoot in hilly pastures and the combination of the lay of the land and the height of the grass in the warmer half of the year means I can never take a prone shot and often not a sitting shot. So standing works well! Once I found tripods

 

[wigwamitus]

..
for those of you who love shooting off tripods, how precise can you regularly be? What technique allows you to shoot your best?

About the limit for me is 750yds on 12x24 inch IPSC-D steel. That's 1.6 MOA. The primary limiting factor is the wind. And I mean what the wind is doing to ME, not the bullet. Over about 8 miles per hour and the "wobble" starts to be about one target width on each side of the target. So it turns in to a "crap shoot" pretty fast. Then, I have to drop down to sitting if I can, or move to a different position, if I cannot.

I've heard people make the noise "free recoil" ... I do not know what that means ... but my guess is I am on the other end of the spectrum. I "heavily load" the tripod. I'm using the tripod to keep me steady and me to keep the tripod steady. When shooting long distance, my support arm is extended as straight as I can get it grabbing the gun and using the joystick of the 322rc2 mount for support. I'm using two legs to the rear, I'm standing straight behind the gun and "leaning in to it" with my knees bent.

I have tried the sling through the carbiner on the belt techique and I think it does work. I should try it more. And I have an RSS on the wish list, but still using the Manfrottos for now.

 

[wigwamitus]

That's my buddy shooting off the tripod sitting at 600yds. We hold the opposite side of the tripod as shown, to keep US steadty as we are usually shooting off the sides of hills and it is either use a lot of torso muscle to keep us upright or grab the tripod. I invented this technique on that day, to keep myself from rolling down the hill. But subsequently, I've seen pics of others doing it. I've also been told it is a bad idea. But, we unfortunately, stick with what works for us, bad idea or not.

 

[wigwamitus]

The farthest I've been able to get on my land sitting, is 730yds. Can't quite see the target from 750yds unless I go standing.

That's the 6.5G(18)

 

[Kopfjager1]

Free recoil is for 6mm and smaller; calibers with no recoil. My opinion, its poor fundamentals, and impractical. Even with the <6mm's, you still lose sight picture/alignment, and increases the amount of movement needed to reengage a target.

Theres a few methods and techniques to help increase your stability and confidence for the farther or smaller targets. These methods are universal between each position, and will only vary slightly depending on comfort, time constraint, etc.

1st method for standing, is clipping in into your sling (from forend to belt). Some will wrap the sling around the center post or the tripod leg to create tension, but youre tying your rifle to the tripod; impractical for multiple targets/multiple positions. Otherwise just have the sling come around the tripod unobstructed. Your firing hand will lightly grip the rifle as normal, your non-firing hand will grip the tripod leg with a "thumbs down grip" to lock the non-shooting arm and rely on skeletal support, you can also grip the sling with your non-firing hand against the tripod leg to increase tension or pull the muzzle down slightly. Youll want a wide stance, a little wider than shoulder width, upper body will be slightly bent at the hips, keep legs locked. When you stand upright next to your rifle, the top of the buttstock should be around mid bicep. Just low enough where youre leaning into the rifle slightly.

Pros to clipping into your sling: it adds a little bit of stability, and provides good recoil management, especially with magnums.
Cons: Time consuming to clip in, requires a riggers belt and carabiner and a sling that is able to create a loop or has a built in loop for the carabiner.

2nd Method is the Push/Pull method. Use the same stance and height of tripod/rifle as in the 1st method, however your firing hand will push on the pistol grip, and your non-firing hand will pull on the tripod leg. Your non-firing arm will be bent around 60-75*, and youre just barely pulling on the tripod leg.

Pros: Much faster and easier to get into position, decent amount of stability and recoil management, with training and timing shots while using muscular support it can be extremely stable for short periods of time (<10 seconds every 20 seconds).
Cons: Youre using muscular support and can get burnt out relatively fast, and Id say it take a little bit more training to effectively engage targets while still maintaining your fundamentals. Ive seen a few shooters including myself (initially), that tend to hold their breath while using this method.

There are other methods, but these two, Id say are the most common. In the other positions, sitting, Low/High Kneeling, the only difference is tripod height and the way your legs are positioned.

Practice with what gear you have first, however, good gear can make a significant improvement. I love my Hog Saddle, but the rubber is pretty well worn, still provides the grip needed, however theres a lot of play that comes from the gripping surface alone. Right now I use a Feisol 3372 CT, Sunwayfoto XB-52DL and a Sawtooth RRS plate. When I was using the Hog Saddle on the ball head, I could clean a row in the sitting position on the SH Dot Drill, low kneeling would be 4 or 5 dots, high kneeling would be 1-3 dots, and standing maybe be able to get 1-2 dots, most of the time would be only 1 dot. Switched to the direct mount RRS plate and now I only miss 1 maybe 2 dots on a bad day, and theyre close (burn ring closer than 1/4"). 35 seconds per row. Im sure with the Anvil 30 the SH Dot Drill would be a breeze.

ETA: Just realized your tripod, you have on leg towards you and the 2 legs towards the target. Turn it around to where the 2 rear legs are perpendicular to the target, the recoil comes straight back versus diagonally.

 

[SLG]

For some reason, I can't see pictures in Wig's posts. They came through on my email notifications though.

Kopfjager1,

What is the size of the dots you are shooting at? IIRC, they should be around .75 moa. Does that sound right? I'll have to try them with the tripod.

If you are referring to my photo (in regards to leg positioning), it is actually set up a bit differently, but the picture is deceiving. That tripod is George Gardner's, and he uses a technique where he off sets the legs, so that his right foot can be on the inside of the back right leg, and put tension on it. That is what I was trying at the time, and though it works, it doesn't seem to work better than what I'm already doing.

Also, though I agree with you in theory about the one leg forward, in practice, up to 308, I can see no difference in accuracy or recoil control with one leg forward or with two legs forward. I usually go one leg forward, but for various reasons, I switch it up from time to time.

There are lots of good slings out there, but you do not need a riggers belt or biner to make them work. You can usually just slip them through your belt and tie a simple knot. Given the level of performance I'm seeing from the RRS setup, as well as the cons you mentioned, I no longer use a sling for any of my tripod needs. If I had to go back to a hog saddle on another tripod, I likely would go back to using a sling in some instances.

 

[j-huskey]

Why do people stand with a tripod if there are options? Am I missing something?

When I use a tripod it is as low as I can make it. A flat mowed field like the photo? I am sitting. I am straight behind the rifle. I'll set up such that one leg is toward the target and 2 toward me. If I have to set the tripod on steep ground, one leg of the tripod is aligned with the fall line regardless of where the target is. If I can, I am slung. If I can, I will build a position - Indian style seating, a rear bag under my trigger hand elbow - providing a solid point of contact between that elbow and hip - all locked down. Weak side hand can vary, but often ends up resting on the tripod leg, or just at rest across my crossed legs. I want to be as low as I can and as stable as I can with just a slight forward lean into the rifle. If it is steep ground and I am askew to the fall line - the seating position can get funky but the result is the same.

Then again I had to shoot kneeling, butt on heels the other night because IR kept bouncing back at me off of tall grass, even still tripod, kneeling, butt on heels - 3pts of contact = sub MOA.

We took an advanced class by TACFLO, and........
Barrett m82.......
We used a tripod and a quad pod because....
The m82 was too heavy to hold up for any length of time...

Every shooter had to find the recoil control method that worked best for them, based on their strength and body mass.
It's one thing to use a "great" tripod technique on a fixed range straight on target.
However.... when you have to sit in a place watching for the target to appear, here or there, bipod, tripod, or quad pod, being able to shoot the system left, right, or straight very quickly, depends on the shooter and their ability to perform the fundamentals quickly.
With that said...

The barrett suspended by rope from above, was the most challenging, made us appreciate the tripod or quadpod.

What worked for my 200+ pounds didn't work for my runt team members 165.

Interesting thread.

Don't have pics I can put up right now, but manfrotto and hog saddle is/has been go to tripod for most of my tripod shooting, never could afford a lock in system like in the pics here.

 

[wigwamitus]

... We used a tripod and a quad pod ...

That sounds familiar ... though I haven't tried the "quad pod" yet ... it is on the wish list ...

It turned out, that the above setup didn't quite work. The first two shots the gun came "out of battery" ... jumped out of the yotes ... I had to "catch" it to keep it from falling on the ground ...

==
Then I had the idea of removing the bipod ... and using that "slot" in the chassis to mate with the forward yoke ... that totally solved the "out of battery" problem !!!

But I have to say, I didn't even think of lumping the "shooting the .50BMG off a 35 poundish tripod" problem in with SLGs question ... thinking this is a whole 'nother problem set.

I do want to try the quad pod. On my uneven ground ... shooting off the sides of hills at distance ... the spec rest tends to want to "leap down the hill" ... and I have not solved that yet. I think lowering the center of gravity would help a lot. I suspect the spec-rest works fine on flat surfaces, we just don't have any of those around here !

 

[SLG]

...

Don't have pics I can put up right now, but manfrotto and hog saddle is/has been go to tripod for most of my tripod shooting, never could afford a lock in system like in the pics here.

I hear this fairly often, about "x" equipment. $600 bipods, $1400 tripods, etc. Usually from people who have $5,000 custom rifles, $3500 scopes...

Rhetorical question. Do you only own one precision rifle? I find the RRS to be so superior, that selling a rifle or scope that I'm not using would be well worth it. Of course, the manfrotto/hog works, the issue is speed and ease of use as well as variety of uses. I'm issued a PIG setup, but for work I greatly prefer the RRS. I consider it a bit of a gamechanger for weight to use performance ratio.

I thought your point about size and weight in relation to recoil control was interesting, as that is an often overlooked aspect of shooting in general. So, given your size and weight, what level of precision are you getting with your chosen technique? Which technique is it?

And in general, what is the current top level of precision from a tripod standing? Can anyone shoot up to the level of their gun in prone?

 

[j-huskey]

@wigwamitus
Bmg or 223, no different, it's all about managing recoil and applying fundamentals.

The class was about "public venue".... like a football stadium or whatever.... there were a lot of high angle shots involved. Bmg didnt go in stadium though. :- )

Quad pod is a pain in the ass. 4 legs to set. Tripod is 3... unlevel ground and speed, does not compute.

Uncle Mike's bipod shooting sticks are the fastest thing we've found for unlevel ground. Set rides in the cart every trip. Been that way almost 3 years.
For us it's not about shooting groups off a stick-thing, its hitting 'and killing' the target in 3 seconds....

A solid set of fundamentals using two hands, two arms, two legs, and one body and being able to put the weapons system on target and bang in 3 seconds beats the use of any "crutch" gear.
Use of any gear as an "assist", versus a "crutch" is an asset, much dependent on mission requirements, need of speed, and terrain difficulties.
The quad and tripod worked much better for us on observer duties versus field. I never found any competition that really gave us time to use quad or tri, and in thick junk, the uncle Mike's stick bipod was a pita, but in a pasture or crop field, was the best deal.
Bogen monopod and hog saddle next choice. That's our mileage.

@SLG,
Give me a minute.

 

[j-huskey]

@SLG

Only thing I do that meets (beats) the level of accuracy prone, is sandbagged in a sitting position built on something solid. Easy to do if you have time.

Accuracy standing ? Kinda ha.... the high dollar lock in quads... absolutely. Almost as good as prone, almost.
The more solid tripods with a weight hung off them, definite second.
Trees, truck, golf cart, rock, building, third.
Uncle Mike sticks 4th.
Monopod 5th.
Me unaided, dead last.

More later, couple hour delay coming for

 

[SLG]

@SLG

Only thing I do that meets (beats) the level of accuracy prone, is sandbagged in a sitting position built on something solid. Easy to do if you have time.

Accuracy standing ? Kinda ha.... the high dollar lock in quads... absolutely. Almost as good as prone, almost.
The more solid tripods with a weight hung off them, definite second.
Trees, truck, golf cart, rock, building, third.
Uncle Mike sticks 4th.
Monopod 5th.
Me unaided, dead last.

More later, couple hour delay coming for

That's my experience as well. I'm curious which Uncle Mikes sticks you use. Speed is always an issue for me real world. This thread is more about absolute capability, rather than real world capability/need or application. Training for me is never about "good enough", it is about getting as good as possible. It is useful to know where the current limits are, when designing training and holding yourself to a standard.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Uncle Mike's bipod shooting sticks are the fastest thing we've found for unlevel ground. Set rides in the cart every trip. Been that way almost 3 years.
For us it's not about shooting groups off a stick-thing, its hitting 'and killing' the target in 3 seconds....

Uncles mikes sticks with a piece of 550 cord attached an under your left foot (if your right handed) aids in longer shots

 

[j-huskey]

That's my experience as well. I'm curious which Uncle Mikes sticks you use. Speed is always an issue for me real world. This thread is more about absolute capability, rather than real world capability/need or application. Training for me is never about "good enough", it is about getting as good as possible. It is useful to know where the current limits are, when designing training and holding yourself to a standard.

Ultimate test of limits and standards is real world use. "Absolute capability without real world capability" has no place in my world.

I've trained people for 40 years. I understood your question and what you were looking for. Everybody will have varied mileage in their answers based on what they learn and how successfully they can apply it in "some kind of 'real' venue, whether a self imposed goal, a competition, or some live exercise".

What works best for you with your experience, training, tripod, rifle, and body mass, might not work for my runt.

Every idea you get sent your way, even though it's not what you intended in "your thread" is a tool in the box, when properly thought through, adapted, and tried, might get you the result you are looking for.
After all, it's the mental aspect that eventually gives you the win, the brain/mind is the ultimate tool. That gives you the ability to adapt training ideas to real results.

Best to you in your quest.

It's a primos gen 3 trigger stick, not uncle Mike. Uncle Mike failed the speed test.
Primos head can wobble but, you adapt to it with use, primos turned out the fastest to deploy and best suited to what we wanted, terrain adaptability, speed to adjust, and general toughness.

 

[Jettheterror]

Micheal at RRS is a very talented and highly experienced real world shooter. But learning other ways to do things is always a good idea because we are all a bit different.

 

[SLG]

I appreciate the responses, even if they are not quite what I was asking. Everyone views things through there own lens, no big deal. It's not "my thread", but I am trying to get an answer to my question. I don't mind learning other things along the way at all., and I know some of you have good experience.

I'm pretty lucky that I've been shooting unlimited amounts of other peoples ammo and guns for over 20 years now. Teaching professionally for almost 25 years. It has allowed me to go beyond my real world requirements, and explore absolute performance goals. I thought that by showing where my current limits were at with regards to standing tripod shooting, I might get some useful tips from people who might be better than me. I doubt this is true, but if for instance, no one can shoot better than sub moa, then spending more time trying to be the first, doesn't really interest me. On the other hand, if other people can shoot .75 moa, for instance, then maybe they are doing something I can readily learn from. Or maybe they just train a ton more then me. Either way it would be good to know.

This is a long term, proven strategy for getting better at something, especially if one doesn't want to spend a lot of time doing it the wrong way. When I was learning to shoot pistol, I shot right at 60,000 rds a year. Once I really got there, I learned how to maintain and even improve that skill on just around 10,000 rds a year. If someone had showed me what I learned on my own, I might have improved much faster. Unfortunately for me, shooting schools are not geared towards people like me, so asking a broad group of people here seemed like a better idea.

Back to some learning...Are the Primos that you like the monopod, bipod or tripod version? If any of you guys wanted to start a thread, or continue this one, talking about how you carry/deploy/use the Primos or UM with the cord, I think that would be very interesting to read.

 

[wigwamitus]

I use the primos for hunting sometimes ... but I consider them to be in the "shooting stick" category (rather than the "tripod" categor)... even those with three legs). I used the 3-legged primos a lot 2-3 years ago, but now use the 1-legged flavor, if I use one at all. It does come in handy sometimes ... like coons at 150ds with the 5.56(10.3) are easier with the 1-legged than standing unsupported. The vast majority of my coop defense kills are standing unsupported inside 100yds ... but a few are out a little farther and the 1-legged stick is part of those as are the real tripods when I use "overwatch" coop defense, versus "patrol" coop defense. I also use the 1-legged stick as a sort of a walking stick even though big letters on it say not to. But I try to remember not to put much weigh on it ... more as a "steadying stick" ... than a full weight support stick. Sometimes, I just get lucky and take the stick when I need it.
The one legged stick is faster to deploy than the 3-legged and easier to do 360s with ... the trade off is that the 3-legged is steadier. Life is full of trade-offs.

 

[SLG]

I have a set of these, but mine have three legs, not the two leg version shown.

https://www.amazon.com/Hammers-bung...pID=31LwYwq5SJL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

I also have these:

https://www.amazon.com/Primos-Pole-..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=GT9VZBKNWA8HY6Z7SE20


Both are excellent for weight to steadiness ratio, and I often carry one of them while hunting, and one of them at work. They are not ideal for heavy precision rifle use, so they are of limited value at work, but they are so small and light, it seems silly not to have the option available. Either is pretty quick to deploy for my real world field use, but neither is 3 secs fast.

It is slightly humorous to me that when I started a thread asking about these types of supports, half the answers were to get a "real tripod" and a Hog saddle.

I like anything that helps me shoot better, and I'll continue to try what's out there.

 

[j-huskey]

Back to your original query. I have a clearer view and ability to answer.
Is half moa off a rest possible ? Yes. Absolutely.
If you read between all my lines previously it ties in. My runt can do what you ask can be done. And he can do it after a mile run in full gear. A story follows that might answer your question.

I've had runt since he was 14. He was shooting b4 I got him. He won a 1000 yard match at 15 with a borrowed rifle.

He was very dedicated, and planned a military career in SF. We were training him much like Marcus Luttrells pre seal daddy trained him and his brother, pre navy.

A car wreck f'ed him up beyond recognition and left him with a plate in his head. And no chance of a sf career. I had to recover him, in both mental and physical. This took a couple of years. He graduated high school and went to work pounding nails, miserable.

I got him a waiver and a job at the police department and kept training him. He was the youngest, shortest in service swat recruit in the dept history. Went on same path to sniper position.
Then he got married and had two children. Training interrupt..... and job needs, more training interrupted.

I needed to train my replacement. He was choice 1. We, he and I started an odyssey to revamp our joint team training and move to a higher level, and him lead it after I was gone.

In that training and effort, we did tripod training from sitting, kneeling, and standing. We did dot drills b4 snipershide came up with them.
There's a picture of me and little Frankenstein (Lowlight) somewhere in mothballs, of us running an event at Rifles Only, so there has been much cross pollenization of training ideas. Is what it is..
We did the dot drills off the tripods. Some of the team did good, some sucked. Runt was the best. As time went on, we pushed the guys harder and harder. And some got better and some quit.
Last year, runt and his partner won first at the premiere le sniper comp in the US. With the highest percentage of gain in the 15ish year of that competition.

He's done all that, managing his job, training 85 people, training the joint team snipers, running the sniper program, being a sniper, and staying married and raising two children.

I once upon a time crossfired my way into second place in a 21 country international sniper competition after several years of staying in the top 5... I am no longer marketable due to age and injury.

Runt is marketable but will fade out with age and family/job priority. But, right now at his peak, he can do your deal "if he wants to", but after the 10 years it took him to peak, his goals are changing. Neither he nor I could justify your goal in our lives at this point.

I am pretty sure you can find a couple of "international sniper comp" (ft Benning) winners who can do your goal.

Am I confident I could train someone to that level. Yes.
How ? Mastery of fundamentals with a rifle that fits the shooter in all shooting positions. Then set that goal and IF shooter is motivated enough, and is willing to train fundamentals over and over and over and over and over, yes.

I've met very few who had the ability to hold that motivation. I've trained a lot of people who met THEIR goals. I've trained several who quit before getting close because of hundreds of reasons. I trained a bunch who couldn't reach their goals because of health and aging.

Is there one way to do it. Or several ? Fundamentals properly applied no matter the position or rest, sure. But, each individual will find their personal niche and there are trainers who would try to beat them out of it, do it the trainers way, and me and those trainers will never see eye to eye. The student will never reach potential because a trainer forces their idea in over the niche the student needs to click into.

Can you beat .75, maybe, depending on health and age, if you haven't peaked. Your 20 years shooting and 25 years instructing, well, time has crept by, if you still have the edge, you should be able to.

Otherwise, you learn to do what age, injury, and health let you do. Jmhe and ymmv.

Talk about sticks later.

 

[j-huskey]

All of the below is predicated on a sub moa rifle with sub moa ammo.

Primos bipod sticks. Two legs. To me, steadiness, is about triangles in position. If you are steady, triangulated, and consistent, it should work. No matter the stick, bipod, or rest.

The biggest deal is presentation of the system to the target.
First both rifle and sticks have to be quickly and smoothly presentable in a manner that enhances npa. If it doesn't enhance npa, chances of a miss are high.

How do you practice with a stick and a rifle to know you have npa. Repetition and dry fire.
How many people here practice daily with their primos sticks dry firing and can tell you the cross hair was there...

How many people have a rifle they can one armed put on the sticks the other arm is putting under the rifle? How many of you practice that.

And be sight on at the same time stick and rifle meet. How many of you practice that.

How many of you have your rifle attached to you in a manner that enhances presentation to the stick and target...

How do you carry the stick so it can be presented smooth and fast to the rifle.

Things that stick carriers have to work out. Thoughts for discussion.

 

[j-huskey]

@SLG
How can u tripod and keep npa, original question... consistently, so you can shrink the group..

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I've found my best accuracy come when I ditch the chassis adaptor mount and instead drape my game changer over the ballhead. When using the game changer I don't find the leg positioning to make any sort of a difference. I run my support hand just forward of the balance point and apply a little downward pressure, just enough to drive the rifle down into the bag some and tighten myself up into the rifle. I don't free recoil but I don't put any pressure into it either if that makes any sense.

 

[MarkCO]

Triangles make you steady, the more the better. After I learned the technique of using paracord with a cam lock and tensioned with the foot to lock the tripod down, my tripod groups went to the same size as my benched and prone groups.

 

[j-huskey]

@RED
Makes plenty of sense. You use both hands, arms, and body with solid fundamentals using the tripod as a steady rest versus part of your fundamental presentation of the rifle. Its all about what you did b4 using the "rest".

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Yep, it's no different than how I shoot a barricade, tank trap, roof top, or just about anything else. Tossing the game changer on something makes it the same every time regardless of what the prop is.

 

[SLG]

Good stuff, thanks. been on a tablet lately, so responding is difficult.

MarkCO, can you elaborate about your paracord cam lock technique? It sounds familiar, but I'm not sure I'm picturing it correctly.

I have shot off my commanche bag, on top of the tripod. Didn't really notice if it was actually better or not, as when my groups are smaller than usual, I often attribute it to luck, as in the pictures I posted above. I'll have to test again and see.

Been busy putting a .223 trainer together for my 10 year old. Loads of fun.

 

[MarkCO]

It is not mine SLG, I learned it from Brian Whalen. This is an actual picture of Brian from class. He is a great instructor and really improved my shooting tremendously.

You can see he has a piece of paracord attached to the front of the stock and the rear of the stock. He has a cam-lock, tightens it up so it hangs freely on the ground, then puts his foot in it compressing the tripod. I have a QD sling mount with a NiteIze clip as shown in the 2nd photo. Works great with my rifles.

 

[SLG]

Ok, thanks very much! That is what I thought, but I have typically used a sling to do that, and anchor it straight to my belt. Tension comes from the adjustable nature of the sling, as well as where I put my hips. With my older tripod setups, this was necessary to make good hits on small targets at distance. The RRS has spoiled me, and I'm trying to skip the sling stuff for now, but if he and you find that it helps, even with the RRS (as in the picture), then I'll at least try it for a bit.

 

[MarkCO]

I found it helped a great deal, especially if getting pushed some by the wind. That is his .22Trainer in the photo, but I also tried it with Brian's .223 out to 600 yards and my .260 out to 1045 yards. I tried the sling and belt thing too, but it felt maybe 50% looser than the foot on the paracord.

The parts to make the paracord were all of $15, so in the world of precision gear, dang cheap.

 

[SLG]

I found it helped a great deal, especially if getting pushed some by the wind. That is his .22Trainer in the photo, but I also tried it with Brian's .223 out to 600 yards and my .260 out to 1045 yards. I tried the sling and belt thing too, but it felt maybe 50% looser than the foot on the paracord.

The parts to make the paracord were all of $15, so in the world of precision gear, dang cheap.

Well, then maybe the forces are different between the two techniques. I'll try the paracord, as shown, and see how it goes. $15 is way to cheap! Can you provide me with a custom ceracoted, titanium cam lock to go with some kevlar/spectra cord, in an elite tactical color??

 

[j-huskey]

The forces are different. Part is in the triangulation strength, and part is in the angle direction of the pull force and recoil force.
Down force gives less recoil movement. Belt attachment enhances rearward recoil, you are pulling back and you recoil back.
Those forces disrupt npa, forcing you to be the "consistent" constant npa and fundamentals otherwise provide, and muscle strength erosion in a string removes your consistency.
Consistency that is possible in prone, but not in standing due to muscle fatigue.

 

[j-huskey]

Bad pic of the quad pods from the class.

 

[j-huskey]

I personally think this type of tripod or quadpod is useless.
Sure, it holds the rifle in position for overwatch.
Just like any clamp vice head does. Or m-lock or key mod attach head.
I have used them all with very unsat results.
More typing follows.

 

[j-huskey]

First problem.
Any bipod, tripod, or quad pod head that attaches, grips, or holds, or restricts, adds the bi-tri-quad into the recoil equation, added weight that changes everything your previous training taught you about how your rifle recoils in every other "human controlled" fundamental rifle presentation to firing.
The attached head, fights every attempt by you to create relaxed controlled npa, causing you to have to muscle the rifle into ffp. You guys in this discussion do far know this is not good. Muscling leads to muscle fatigue and inconsistency.
Bullsbags in prone or benched create the same opposing forces when muscling is forced with the same negative results.

So, the pictured quad pods should show the potential for loss of accuracy when firing for groups. Hope the above written is sufficient to provide helpful information.

More will follow.

ADDED:
Second problem....
Tripod/quad pod movement...

Using the camlock as described previously or the sling is much similar to "pre-loading" a bipod. The same things to glitch pre-loading a bipod can glitch using a tripod or quad.
In another thread, "the German" asks about poi shift and bipods. It looked like or sounded like he was having the bipod digging in and giving different levels of resistance affecting recoil causing a double grouping. That thread received several different answers and the question remains "what caused the double grouping". Deutchman never responded if tried any of the ideas and identified the problem.

So.... once in an overwatch position, our unknown gent screwed an eyebolt into the floor......

Previously, adding weight to the tripod/quad was tried. Weight used was anything from a two liter water bottle, a concrete block, a sandbag, or a rucksack. The swinging of the weight disturbed the intended result. But. It does stabilize the pod for at least one shot.

Next thing was a tent peg with 550 and mr camlock. This worked better. But there are issues to overcome with this. in a shot string, the tent peg will come out to play...

Unk/gent carries eye bolts to screw into overhead beams to rope barret into place......
So, there was the time pod, eye bolt, 550 and camlock were used, attaching pod to floor, to prevent pod movement.
It does work for the first shot with a lock in tripod head, not as spiffy on shooting strings.

So, back to hog saddle/bags on head that allow recoil ro move naturally ended up the final result even though the tent peg, eyebolt, 550, and camlock are still viable options to steady the pod.

Whatever is used, nothing in a pod standing position can reduce the accuracy robbing muscle fatigue that any standing position causes shooting strings of fire for group, scores, or multiple targets.

Shooting standing is a challenge and always will be.
Just more thought mulch here. Hope it stimulates some ideas that help op/slg get to his goal.

Using MarkCO's pic,
The "lean in, foot on cord" shows a muscle fatigue inducing position, even though it is an effective position for a single shot or a small number of shots. Even for someone in very good physical condition, it is not sustainable for a long period or long series of shots. Recoil causing both shooter movement and pod movement require rebuilding the position just like any other shooting position to maintain npa.

 

[precisionrifleman]

Silly title, I know.

I looked around at all the tripod threads I could find, but none had quite what I'm after here.

I'm familiar with several different techniques that various really good shooters like to use, and I have tried them. I keep coming back to my original technique, because it seems to work as well or better for me, and is a bit easier as well. Nothing original to me, just one leg towards target, other two back to me. Michael at RRS has a different technique, but it doesn't seem to offer me the same level of recoil control. I have no doubt it works for him. Same with some other options out there, but I don't want to name and describe them all. I only mention Michael because I don't doubt he knows how to shoot of a tripod, and it is his business to help educate his customers. It just doesn't seem to work that well for me. Maybe in person he could correct something I'm doing, IDK.

Anyway, I can shoot sub moa groups very consistently off of my RRS setup, but I want to know if anyone can shoot consistent .75 or better. Anyone down in the .5 moa range normally? I occasionally manage .75, but can't say it is a legit capability of mine. I test this on paper at 100 and 200, as well as on sub moa steel at 337. I have shot much further on a tripod, but it wasn't my range and I don't believe any of the targets were sub moa. Probably more like 2 moa.

The RRS is awesome, as all I have to do is clamp my gun in and go. With my old setups (Manfrottos and PIG's) the only way to get moa was with a sling and more practice than the RRS takes. Furthermore, with the RRS, it doesn't seem to matter if I use the Vyce, or go direct to the Anvil 30. Same results either way. I had hoped that the Anvil 30 would get me a little more precision, but again, maybe I'm not optimizing what I'm doing.

So, for those of you who love shooting off tripods, how precise can you regularly be? What technique allows you to shoot your best?

The pic is of a loaner tripod that convinced me to switch to RRS. Pricey, but awesome. First time I ever shot sub moa standing without having to sling up to the tripod.

Perhaps using a gun other than an ak would help you achieve your 1/2 minute groups.

 

[wigwamitus]

... Perhaps using a gun other than an ak would help ...

ROFL ...

The gun in the pic in OPs first post is a "Fix" by "Q" ...

https://liveqordie.com/products/the-fix-by-q?variant=7695786475548

Not exactly an "AK" !!!

 

[precisionrifleman]

you took the bait, thank you for posting a picture of your fine rifle. I was staring at the picture and turning my head sideways trying to figure out what the hell it was. Can you explain what you have there? This thread has given me a new outlook on shooting supported and how to receive other instructors opinions on how to best use the intended tool.

 

[wigwamitus]

... thank you for posting a picture of your fine rifle ...

Not my fine rifle !!! You are too funny !

 

[j-huskey]

Added to post 38 above about 550, camlocks, things, and muscle fatigue.

 

[MarkCO]

j-huskey, thanks for the comments. Always good to learn more.

For my applications, shooting 3 to 6 pieces of steel in a few minutes at various distances and locations, the cam-lock with foot still seems to be the fastest and best method I have seen. I agree I would not want to be in that position for more than a minute or so.

 

[SLG]

j-huskey, thanks for the comments. Always good to learn more.

For my applications, shooting 3 to 6 pieces of steel in a few minutes at various distances and locations, the cam-lock with foot still seems to be the fastest and best method I have seen. I agree I would not want to be in that position for more than a minute or so.

That's where I'm at. The tripod works awesome for me for work, to stay on target when prone is not an option, for a long period of time, but is only needed for a shot (theoretically), so recoil and position rebuilding is not a critical aspect. That is, I'm able to do those things well enough for the intended mission, and am not trying to actually be on the gun, preloaded, all the time.

This thread was not intended to be anything more than a look at range capabilities, (after all, group shooting is a range exercise and a fundamental aspect of shooting, but is not the desired end state) but there is a lot of interesting info here, thanks very much guys.

 

[j-huskey]

j-huskey, thanks for the comments. Always good to learn more.

For my applications, shooting 3 to 6 pieces of steel in a few minutes at various distances and locations, the cam-lock with foot still seems to be the fastest and best method I have seen. I agree I would not want to be in that position for more than a minute or so.

It is a very good technique and imho probably the best one I know of to do what you are doing.

 

[j-huskey]

That's where I'm at. The tripod works awesome for me for work, to stay on target when prone is not an option, for a long period of time, but is only needed for a shot (theoretically), so recoil and position rebuilding is not a critical aspect. That is, I'm able to do those things well enough for the intended mission, and am not trying to actually be on the gun, preloaded, all the time.

This thread was not intended to be anything more than a look at range capabilities, (after all, group shooting is a range exercise and a fundamental aspect of shooting, but is not the desired end state) but there is a lot of interesting info here, thanks very much guys.

@SLG,
You looked at it as a range capability and maybe a challenge, skill builder, something to do for a personal goal.
I think it, sub .75 moa can be done off a tripod. All the stuff I put out there are things that need dealing with to do it. I'm not sure any one technique is better.

Example, your body weight, rifle weight, and caliber recoil might better benefit from technique "A" where MarkCO best technique "B", and I need "E".

I am aware of one real world 17 Jan 1991 incident where previous practice shooting multiple rounds off a tripod would have made doing a needed job easier.

After the Tacpro class, I can see practical application to what you wanted to do. Made the wheels start turning, your post did. My students may not like me next iteration.. Runt is about to be challenged.
Thank you !

 

[SLG]

Ran out and tried the Vyce again vs. the Commanche bag. I have the Saracen coming, which is heavier, but haven't tried it yet.

Not a practical difference, but the Vyce was tighter for the few times I tried them. May be my lack of practice on the bag, but I felt like the wind was blowing me around more with the bag vs. the Vyce. Only 3 shot groups, given the skinny barrel I was using today, so again, not worth drawing any meaningful conclusions off of. The bottom groups are with 73g Bergers, which is what the gun is zero'd with. The top group was with 77g SMK's which I am testing. That is 5 rounds of 77g, but only 3 and 3 of the 73's.

 

[j-huskey]

Diamond target looks suspiciously like from 11 page fb1 qual package...?

Bottom diamond looked pretty good.

 

[SLG]

Well, it does say duplication encouraged on it... Proper use of a work copy machine

I thought the top target looked better. Shows what I know. :-(

camloc ordered, but it looks like it will be next week before I get to give it a run.