PRS Talk Better bullets or more practice?

[Golfnut721]

So a friend and I were discussing something and we wanted to get some other opinions.

Your budget is semi limited in this scenario. You will be shooting a 6gt and will be shooting out to 1000 yards in prs matches. Mostly 1 day matches with maybe 3-4 pro series matches. You'll shoot roughly 1500 rounds with the match schedule with enough extra to do load development. Your in your first year of shooting centerfire.

Shooter 1,
Buys Berger 105 hybrids, 1500 of them($800), develop the load then shoot the matches, with limited practice.

Shooter 2,
Buys the same dollar amount of Hornady 105BTHP which will give you around 3000 rounds to load develop, shoot matches and practice. In this scenario you'll have roughly 1500 rounds to practice outside of matches

At the end of the year, what shooter will have a more successful year?

 

[Lightning8]

In the Southeast, average PRS engagement is 600 yards. Yes, there are a few 900 to 1200 but if you hit all the 600 and under and miss all the 900-1200 I bet you would be top 10.

Maybe compromise and get 107 SMKs. Also, 1500 rounds = 1 barrel with room left over but 3000 rounds is into 2 barrels so you have to add the cost of a second barrel to that math.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

It's also another 1500 more primers and 6and some change pounds of powder at 30gn a charge, so at minimum $450ish in components there...

Either way, I'd say the shooter with the better practice routine will have the better year - whether that's dry fire or live or 22LR practice, consistency makes a bigger difference IMHO.

 

[BrienM]

Trigger time builds better shooters. Shooter 2 given equal talent would be better at year end.

 

[The Godfather]

In my testing I could not get the Hornady 105’s under 1moa with a large sample size (20-25 round group). The Berger 105 and 108’s out of the same barrel would be in the 0.6 range. Probably not enough of a difference for most beginners to notice but still there. However, if I was on a budget the first thing to go would be one of the pro matches. One can easily spend the difference in bullet cost for the entire season during an out of town 2 day match. Practice more and attend more (inexpensive) one day matches.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Berger 105 Hybrid, 230 per 500 x 3 = 690
Hornady 108 ELD 204 per 500 x3 =612
107 SMK 203 per 500 x3 = 609

Hornady 105 BTHP Bulk .32 per bullet 690/.32=2156.25 bullets = 656 extra practice rounds against Hybrids

I was going to recommend 108 ELD's as I have had great luck with those when 109 hybrids became hard to get but I see their price isn't as big a difference as I had thought now.

While keeping in mind that I have struggled getting Hornady BTHP's to shoot much better than 3/4 MOA consistently, I'd advise to go with the better bullet. That, combined with the BC variation, is going to be troublesome especially now that the series seems to be moving to smaller targets. Tell him to keep his speeds in the mid to low 2800's on the 6GT and the barrel will last 3k from my personal experience. Run the berger's, eld's or smk's and spend his off time doing serious positional dryfire practice.

 

[ECK]

I’ll throw another option into the mix:

Shooter 3 shoots 1-2 rimfire matches a month (NRL22, NRL22X or PRS22). Granted, that’s adding another $1-3K rabbit hole into the mix, but some of the skills from all that extra trigger time and positional shooting will carry over to centerfire.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

We need to define success. Pure match placement? Amount learned and future performance as a product of?

All else being equal, they do the same amount of dry fire, both have the same current skill level, same natural ability.....etc.....

Shooter 2 will likely be better off. As its first year of shooting centerfire and you'll gain much more valuable lessons with more shooting than you will a couple points here and there with better bullets.

 

[ToddKS]

Shooter 2 will actually spend significantly more money on ammunition and related costs in this example. Bullets are just one part of the cost to fire a round.

I shoot 105 Hybrids. When I factor in powder, primer, bullet, brass amortization, and barrel amortization, I figure each round fired has a real cost of $1.30 for me. Changing to a 105 Hornady would reduce the cost by $.19 based on 500 count box pricing.

Shooter 1: 1500 x $1.30 = $1950

Shooter 2: 3000 x $1.11 = $3330

If both shooters are equally funded for ammunition, Shooter 2 would only be able to fire 1756 rounds for the same money, not 3000.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

The question wasn't about per round cost though. It was specifically related to bullet choice/cost. Unless the OP clarifies otherwise, we are assuming he has all the other components already as well as a barrel and such that will last the life of the 3000 rounds. And he's not concerned with brass or barrel costs per round.

If OP wants a comparison of round per round cost and such, that's a completely different question. Simply asking about bullet performance vs bullet cost is quite different.

 

[hlee]

There is a big assumption that shooter 2’s practice will be effective. The oft heard mantra that “practice makes perfect” is wrong. Practice makes permanent.

But, let’s assume that shooter 2 does have effective practice sessions. He shoots from match-realistic props and develops strategies to build and maintain stable shooting positions under a time constraint. He shoots in the wind. He shoots in the rain (may not affect the bullet, but it affects everything else). He recreates troublesome match stages during practice sessions and assessed his shooting without the pressure of a squad watching. He videos his shooting to perfect his form. Over the course of the season he burns out the barrel on his trainer rifle. Oh, and he also developed a respectable 3/4 moa load for his match gun.

Shooter one spends his time at the reloading bench. He has a solid 1/2 moa load. He shot it over his Labradar and a 30 round string has an ES of 13 fps. He zeroed his rifle at 100y and confirmed his drop at 600y (the furthest he has access to). He used AB to true his ballistics and calculate wind drift out to 1200 y. Like a conscientious reloader, he did his load dev during the heat of the summer- don’t want any surprises caused by over pressure rounds do we? He used a “temp stable” powder, and it doesn’t really get that cold in Indiana anyway. Range trips were pretty much all load dev, but he’s solid from a bipod and rear bag. He only chose no-wind/rain days to shoot, because of load development.

Who do I think has the edge in performance improvement over the course of a season? Shooter 2.

It’s kind of like assessing 2 aspiring ball players.

One gets lots of practice.
The other gets a really good ball…

 

[Oldloser]

Getting better at shooting means you start to want a rifle system that shoots better. It's a self-reinforcing spiral.

Shooter 2 will be twice as far down the learning curve as shooter 1.

Better yet would be shooter 3 who practices every morning in the garage with a DFAT, and shoots at most 50 rounds each weekend at the range, spending most time dry firing off the props. He knows he is the weak link and until his body can deliver at most .1 mil wobble then nothing else matters. He also finds a mentor who is a good gunsmith and follows their advice to the T - AFTER his body can deliver.

 

[Golfnut721]

I guess I should have been more clear. Shooter 1 and 2 are the same person, not sure if that changes anything. Maybe should be route 1 and route 2.

Lets throw out route 3. The shooter goes the berger route and only shoots that at matches and load development, but shoots Rimfire practice on a weekly basis. Also competing in 22prs matches on weekends that he doesn't have a centerfire match.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Anyone have AB's wez calculator?

Shooter 1 can keep his groups at .1 mil from the bench and .25mil off props cause of lessor practice, Shooter 2 can keep his groups under .2 mil off the bench and .4mil off props.

Run a 4mph wind certainty for shooter 1 who only gets load development practice and limited live fire practice, 3mph wind certainty for shooter 2 who gets a little more live fire practice.

Use a target match package where 50% of the 100 targets are at .5 mils in size, 40% at .4 mils, 7% at .3 mils and 3% at .25 mils. and see who comes out ahead.

 

[hlee]

I guess I should have been more clear. Shooter 1 and 2 are the same person, not sure if that changes anything. Maybe should be route 1 and route 2.

Lets throw out route 3. The shooter goes the berger route and only shoots that at matches and load development, but shoots Rimfire practice on a weekly basis. Also competing in 22prs matches on weekends that he doesn't have a centerfire match.

Shooter 1 and Shooter 2 are both avid golfers...

Shooter 1 buys Titlist golf balls and works through lunch to pay for the balls.

Shooter 2 buys Pinnacle balls (but only when on sale) and goes to the driving range every day over lunch.

Who is the better ball striker?

 

[hlee]

I guess I should have been more clear. Shooter 1 and 2 are the same person, not sure if that changes anything. Maybe should be route 1 and route 2.

Lets throw out route 3. The shooter goes the berger route and only shoots that at matches and load development, but shoots Rimfire practice on a weekly basis. Also competing in 22prs matches on weekends that he doesn't have a centerfire match.

If you want to shoot Berger bullets, shoot Berger bullets.

 

[Golfnut721]

Shooter 1 and Shooter 2 are both avid golfers...

Shooter 1 buys Titlist golf balls and works through lunch to pay for the balls.

Shooter 2 buys Pinnacle balls (but only when on sale) and goes to the driving range every day over lunch.

Who is the better ball striker?

Being an avid golfer, I can confidently say that golfer 2 will be better at ball striking.

however, if golfer 1 is a good ball striker using the Prov1 in tournaments will yield better results and build confidence because of the consistency of the ball.

in the golfer analogy the ultimate plan would be to have the cheapest ammo you can (think range balls) then have the best ammo you can for the match (think prov1).

Great parallel.

 

[Sblzrd65]

I guess I should have been more clear. Shooter 1 and 2 are the same person, not sure if that changes anything. Maybe should be route 1 and route 2.

Lets throw out route 3. The shooter goes the berger route and only shoots that at matches and load development, but shoots Rimfire practice on a weekly basis. Also competing in 22prs matches on weekends that he doesn't have a centerfire match.

Route 3 then (really a version 1.1) over Route 2. Though I'm a fan of PRS rimfire. Essentially you can run the exact same rig, same types of barricades, etc. So aside from recoil and plugging different numbers into the solver it's similar. If just routes 1 and 2, then 2. For PRS you don't need F Class level ragged circles, there's some wiggle room as long as fundamentals are solid.

 

[Sheldon N]

I think it's a bit of a false construct to put this into a question of just Berger Hybrids vs. 105 BTHP and some extra practice rounds. The overarching issue to overcome is this... Not enough money, Not enough time. We all face this problem to one degree or another.

Good decisions come when we recognize what dollars spent will help us to have an adequately capable gear for our skill level, and how to devote the remaining dollars to help us become better shooters. So it's not just "do I buy Berger", it's something that should be thought about for every dollar spent on the sport if your funds are limited.

It's the same with our limited time. We should ask ourselves if what we are doing is making us better shooters. Meaningful practice, on the right things, in the right way, etc.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

In my limited experience, I see one factor that is being ignored.

The elevation and windage dials on scopes. Develop load for match bullets and develop load for cheap bullets. Shoot cheap for practice, Day before or morning before match, change scope settings, changing and verifying settings for the match bullets. Most of us verify sight settings right before the match anyway.

One other thought that makes the above much more appealing and practical. 105 hybrids can be more than scarce at times. Whereas bullets like the 107’s and some of the Hornady’s are regularly available. I practically wore out a barrel shooting it while waiting for the 105 hybrids to appear. I had a small trial batch with that barrel and it performed great, much better than what I was using. 1200 rounds later, I am actually able to purchase a box or two of hybrids and from there was able to actually work up the load.

 

[JerkyFreak]

For someone that need practice to get to a competitive standard, go the practice route for the first year at least. If the shooter is brutally honest with himself, he will quickly realise when it is the ammo keeping him back. Then transition to the quality ammo routes.

With PRS, provided your load always shoots under 0.3mil, ammo grouping potential is a very small part of being successful. Stable position, shooting fundamentals and adjusting for weather conditions are way more important. Those are only learnt by practice.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Shooter 1 and Shooter 2 are both avid golfers...

Shooter 1 buys Titlist golf balls and works through lunch to pay for the balls.

Shooter 2 buys Pinnacle balls (but only when on sale) and goes to the driving range every day over lunch.

Who is the better ball striker?

Shooter #3 who has natural ability.

 

[Superchunk72]

Practice trumps BC's in PRS. If you can't shoot 1moa or better off a barricade, the bullet is not going to be the deciding factor, I guarantee it.

Put your cash into the process, not just the bullets. Plenty of matches have been won using bulk RDF's(Jake @ PanhandlePrecision- Google it), and I've personally seen folks with factory Tikka's and Savages clean matches with Federal Factory ammo. I ran Federal brass and bulk Lapua Scenars for years, and still use that combo in Operational Shooting Association 600 yard matches with great success.

A good investment is the "Indoor Dry Fire Training System" by IDTS. Competitive shooters will spend hours a week on this, it's one of the best investments($250-ish) you can make when starting out.

Shoot matches, talk to the locals, shoot more matches, refine your process and your kit. Worry about bullets down the road.

Enjoy the journey.