Better glass vs bigger objective? - the struggle

[FUNCTIONAL]

Looking at possibly changing up spotters to shed some weight I lug around at each match (recent health issues sparked this search). Currently I have an Gen 1 Razor HD 85mm and find the glass to be better than most I typically get to see at the range. I have looked through leupold mk4 and GR and found the glass to be not as sharp as the Razor85, tried the swaro STR 80 and while the glass did seem better or at a minimum equal with the razor85 I found it difficult to keep in focus (seemed the focus band was narrow while spotting a cluster of targets at different ranges), not a fan of anything bushnell, 65mm razor I feel is out classed by my 2 options Im currently looking at in both glass quality and weight.

Not really wanting to go above $1600 on a new spotter got me looking at smaller obj. spotters but with higher quality glass. The two catching my eye has been the Minox MD60 and the Kowa 554. I dont need a reticle but not sacrificing what I see downrange and eye comfortability/relief are pretty big factors. I prefer going smaller/lighter but I RO too much to sacrifice what I see especially with some of these whiney shooters questioning every miss. I generally never go above the minimum 20x and when I do I dont go above 30x.

Is there a 60mm class spotter, or the Kowa 554/3 that is going to be within my price range that will give me the same optical performance as the Razor HD 85? Or is the bigger "B grade" glass always going to out perform the smaller "A grade" glass and I should just suck it up?

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

If this is for match use, and you don't absolutely have to have a reticle, I'd suggest switching to binos over a spotter. I'm hauling around both at the moment, and I can say that the spotter is definitely not going to last much longer if I am not using it to get video of the target.

 

[northshorelumber]

Seeing more and more binos at matches instead of spotters but if you are set on a spotter the Kowa is hard to beat with your criteria.

 

[Diver160651]

Looking at possibly changing up spotters to shed some weight I lug around at each match (recent health issues sparked this search). Currently I have an Gen 1 Razor HD 85mm and find the glass to be better than most I typically get to see at the range. I have looked through leupold mk4 and GR and found the glass to be not as sharp as the Razor85, tried the swaro STR 80 and while the glass did seem better or at a minimum equal with the razor85 I found it difficult to keep in focus (seemed the focus band was narrow while spotting a cluster of targets at different ranges), not a fan of anything bushnell, 65mm razor I feel is out classed by my 2 options Im currently looking at in both glass quality and weight.

Not really wanting to go above $1600 on a new spotter got me looking at smaller obj. spotters but with higher quality glass. The two catching my eye has been the Minox MD60 and the Kowa 554. I dont need a reticle but not sacrificing what I see downrange and eye comfortability/relief are pretty big factors. I prefer going smaller/lighter but I RO too much to sacrifice what I see especially with some of these whiney shooters questioning every miss. I generally never go above the minimum 20x and when I do I dont go above 30x.

Is there a 60mm class spotter, or the Kowa 554/3 that is going to be within my price range that will give me the same optical performance as the Razor HD 85? Or is the bigger "B grade" glass always going to out perform the smaller "A grade" glass and I should just suck it up?

I sold my 85, just never wanted to pack it.

I was using the 65mm Swaro ATS, but to my surprise, the newest 65mm Gen Razor was brighter with more FOV and felt sharper. I think the reason for this is that the new 65mm ships with the wide angle lens. That said the 85s are a bit better, but again, it isn’t if you can’t carry it.

 

[AIAW]

I sold my 85, just never wanted to pack it.

I was using the 65mm Swaro ATS, but to my surprise, the newest 65mm Gen Razor was brighter with more FOV and felt sharper. I think the reason for this is that the new 65mm ships with the wide angle lens. That said the 85s are a bit better, but again, it isn’t if you can’t carry it.

Yep, same with the Hensoldt Spotter 45. Absolutely fantastic as a spotter but I'd never pack and hump that around if I could avoid it.

 

[bab029]

For match use, a pair of high end 15x56 binos has my vote. The depth of field is a-mazing.

 

[DetroitRearView]

I have or have owned just about everything out there and am certainly afflicted with trying new glass, that being said, there. Few that I have stayed with over the last few years:

Kowa 554 - amazing lightweight spotter that is literally in a class of it’s own
Swarovski EL 12x50
Swarovski BTX 95mm

If I could only own one to do everything - it would be the EL 12x50 (outdoorsmans tripod stud installed) running on my RRS or Outdoorsman’s tripod

 

[Diver160651]

I have or have owned just about everything out there and am certainly afflicted with trying new glass, that being said, there. Few that I have stayed with over the last few years:

Kowa 554 - amazing lightweight spotter that is literally in a class of it’s own
Swarovski EL 12x50
Swarovski BTX 95mm

If I could only own one to do everything - it would be the EL 12x50 (outdoorsmans tripod stud installed) running on my RRS or Outdoorsman’s tripod

FWIW I can’t see out of binos — it kinda sucks

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

yea I'm 100% against binos. Scanning for targets it shines but everywhere else I feel a spotter overpowers it. I've tired, just not a fan.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

yea I'm 100% against binos. Scanning for targets it shines but everywhere else I feel a spotter overpowers it. I've tired, just not a fan.

Honestly, I can pick up impacts better through a pair of binos than I can with a spotter, especially with 15s. Quality on the binos makes a big difference, but having both eyes involved makes a huge difference in what you can see. I also don't have the eye strain and fatigue at the end of the day.

Are you going to be at the Altus match this weekend?

 

[AIAW]

I feel a true spotter needs to have a reticle. Well, more than feel - it has to. I can only call hits or misses with non-reticled binos. I prefer to use the traditional spotter-speak and actually call corrections. Simply can't do that effectively without referencing something simple like "target size-left" or "half-target low". If simply for observation, no worries. For moving impacts, that reticle is key I feel.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I feel a true spotter needs to have a reticle. Well, more than feel - it has to. I can only call hits or misses with non-reticled binos. I prefer to use the traditional spotter-speak and actually call corrections. Simply can't do that effectively without referencing something simple like "target size-left" or "half-target low". If simply for observation, no worries. For moving impacts, that reticle is key I feel.

For the most part, I agree - but at PRS matches, where I can't call corrections (at least not until the stage is over), the reticle is less of a concern to me. The binos make it easier to see mirage and trace, as well as see impacts (at least for me), so I consider it a fair trade for no reticle. That said, I think there's a need on the market for more high quality binos with a reticle.

 

[AIAW]

For the most part, I agree - but at PRS matches, where I can't call corrections (at least not until the stage is over), the reticle is less of a concern to me. The binos make it easier to see mirage and trace, as well as see impacts (at least for me), so I consider it a fair trade for no reticle. That said, I think there's a need on the market for more high quality binos with a reticle.

I'm with you. Definitely a situational thing like most equipment choices. I entirely agree with your above statements. I do wish there were more options for reticled binos out there too.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I'm with you. Definitely a situational thing like most equipment choices. I entirely agree with your above statements. I do wish there were more options for reticled binos out there too.

I know of one major company that's looking really hard at it. There's been several of us pushing them to do it, it's just a matter of working out details and getting approvals. I've actually got a test set coming in this week to use for getting feedback on them.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

Reticle isnt necessary, I'm decent enough I can call a correction on mils without one. Wouldnt object, but not necessary...I'd rather better glass than mediocre glass with a reticle in my price range.

Anyone have input on the 554/3 vs the Razor 85mm ? I'm sure the Kowa glass is better than the vortex but is it good enough to at least match the larger 85mm?

 

[Squibbler]

there's a need on the market for more high quality binos with a reticle.

Agree... Quality binos, with reticle, and integral LRF.... Count me in

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

Bueller?

Hard to believe no one in these forums has had eyes through a kowa 553/4 and razor 85mm.

 

[uscbadger]

Looking at buying my first Spotter and had my eyes on a Hensoldt 40 or 60 spotter. Any opinions on the new Swarovski NL Pure 12x42 as a substitute? New to precision shooting so any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[uscbadger]

Appreciate the insight. Just placed an order for the NL Pure 10x42. Will see how that goes once they ship on Sept 1st.

 

[db2000]

I'm using Leupold BX-T 10x42 Mil-Reticle and love them. Edge to edge clarity is fantastic. Glass is great and like to reticle for spotting.

Leupold BX-T Tactical HD Binocular 10x42mm

The BX-T HD tactical binocular is purpose built to give you the tactical advantage needed to succeed in any situation. Its ultra low-light performance...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[Steel head]

I'm using Leupold BX-T 10x42 Mil-Reticle and love them. Edge to edge clarity is fantastic. Glass is great and like to reticle for spotting.

Leupold BX-T Tactical HD Binocular 10x42mm

The BX-T HD tactical binocular is purpose built to give you the tactical advantage needed to succeed in any situation. Its ultra low-light performance...

www.midwayusa.com

Those are cool!

 

[tsu45]

I'm using Leupold BX-T 10x42 Mil-Reticle and love them. Edge to edge clarity is fantastic. Glass is great and like to reticle for spotting.

Leupold BX-T Tactical HD Binocular 10x42mm

The BX-T HD tactical binocular is purpose built to give you the tactical advantage needed to succeed in any situation. Its ultra low-light performance...

www.midwayusa.com

Is the reticle in The left or right tube?

 

[Ruskin]

Appreciate the insight. Just placed an order for the NL Pure 10x42. Will see how that goes once they ship on Sept 1st.

I’ve got a pair of 12x42 NLs on the way as well

 

[theLBC]

i was basically going through similar questions after i had already bought a $250 chinese spotting scope (pre-chinama virus).
i had been looking and saw a YT comparison between a $900 Vortex Razor (not the latest model) and SVBony $250 20-60x80 SV46.
it has all the feature of the razor, and looks like a copy.
i had to rely on this one vid and many reviews from nature watchers that rated the scope very highly in the price range.
my impressions are pretty much as they found. it works pretty darn well for the price.


anyway, while i am satisfied with the chinama scope, i still wanted a "tactical" scope with a reticle that would fit in my rifle bag.
the MK4 was a great option, but i was balking at the $1700 price tag until i was able to grab one used here on the hide for $1100 with a decent cover.

so now i can give you a subjective opinion after looking through both.
to me, the MK4 is just as clear and sharp as the larger SVBony at 40x.
i will compare again at night and see if it is easier to tell.
the fov is larger on the svbony at the same power as you would expect, but the 12x low end of the MK makes target acquisition quicker and easier (imo).
also the straight through and more compact size also made it seem easier and more natural for aiming. .

for digiscoping however, the chinama model actually seems to work better through my cellphone.
i think the larger diameter of the eyepiece allows the phone's camera to use more of it's own sensor? i dunno. will try more later.
here is a look through both, with the cell phone zoomed in all the way (so hopefully showing the potential of each through the lens of my cellphone)
also note i did not mess with the camera settings. it is on auto/HDR.

MK4 at 40x- the sign is 133 yards away. again, this is through a cell phone. you do not see the fringing when you look with your eyes.

on a side note, i did make up this Ridgid case to hold all this crap if i need to take it all to the range and take video or pictures.
both spotters, or spotter and compact tripod, lithium battery, range finder, slo-mo head, fix it sticks tool kit and a couple pouches for other crap.
i have already been using the large rolling Ridgid box for ammo and other equipment and they all lock together.

 

[Wyzrd]

Looking at possibly changing up spotters to shed some weight I lug around at each match (recent health issues sparked this search). Currently I have an Gen 1 Razor HD 85mm and find the glass to be better than most I typically get to see at the range. I have looked through leupold mk4 and GR and found the glass to be not as sharp as the Razor85, tried the swaro STR 80 and while the glass did seem better or at a minimum equal with the razor85 I found it difficult to keep in focus (seemed the focus band was narrow while spotting a cluster of targets at different ranges), not a fan of anything bushnell, 65mm razor I feel is out classed by my 2 options Im currently looking at in both glass quality and weight.

Not really wanting to go above $1600 on a new spotter got me looking at smaller obj. spotters but with higher quality glass. The two catching my eye has been the Minox MD60 and the Kowa 554. I dont need a reticle but not sacrificing what I see downrange and eye comfortability/relief are pretty big factors. I prefer going smaller/lighter but I RO too much to sacrifice what I see especially with some of these whiney shooters questioning every miss. I generally never go above the minimum 20x and when I do I dont go above 30x.

Is there a 60mm class spotter, or the Kowa 554/3 that is going to be within my price range that will give me the same optical performance as the Razor HD 85? Or is the bigger "B grade" glass always going to out perform the smaller "A grade" glass and I should just suck it up?

I know it’s an older post, but I used to have an 85mm Gen 1 Razor, and needed something smaller/lighter for packing around during mtn hunts here in WY. I decided to go top tier and went with a Zeiss Victory Diascope FL 65mm with a fixed 30x WA eyepiece. It’s great for spotting at the range, and is perfect for checking out critters during a hunt. I don’t have any experience with the Minox or Kowa spotters, but if you can find one I would highly recommend checking out one of these 65mm Zeiss spotters! Hard to find, but I believe they make eyepieces for these with reticles too.I believe they discontinued this spotter, but they can still be found. Prices range from $1500-2500 though depending on the condition, eyepieces, etc.