Beyond maximum loads...Berger 185 gr. Juggernaut in 308

[boisepaw]

The rifle is a Remington 700 Varminter stock rifle...1:10 twist...26" fluted barrel. I want to work up a long range load for the Berger Juggernaut 185 grain bullets. I'll be loading Lapua brass with Federal Match primers. Seating depth YTBD. I have H4895, IMR 4895, IMR 4064 and Varget.

I understand that reloading manuals have upper limits on charge weight for liability reasons amongst other things. And I understand that no one is going to casually tell me to go beyond those limits. I'm doing some searches to get some idea about loads and see lots of folks who are exceeding Berger manual limits..

For example, with Varget, the Berger manual says that 41.6 gr. is their maximum load. But that is also an approximate maximum velocity of 2535 which might be a little slow to reach out to longer range targets. With the four powders mentioned above, the maximum velocity is from 2532 to 2604.

Then I run across the guy who says he's worked up to 44.2 grains of Varget with the Juggernaut (Lapua brass). That's a LOT more powder than the manual offers for the maximum charge.

Obviously one will look for pressure signs along the way but...do I need to be a good boy and stay below the maximum loads according to the manual (H4895 is 40.5, IMR 4064 is 41, IMR 4895 is 41.5 and again, Varget is 41.6)? Or can I start close to that maximum load and work beyond it?

I'd rather not load a bunch of rounds that I'll just have to take apart if I start seeing pressure signs right away while shooting at the range that is a half hour away.

And if anyone has their own pet loads for the Juggernaut for 308, I'd love to hear them.

 

[Huskydriver]

Why not just step up to a larger case........

 

[918v]

Are you going to single feed it?

 

[KZP]

Here are two I use for the 185 Juggernaut in my 26" 1:9 barrel. For reference only of course. Your reloading steps, components and rifle may not like these.

42g IMR 4064 - OAL 2.9" - Annealed Lapua brass - CCI BR2 primer - 2650 fps at 80F ambient
44.3g Varget - OAL 2.9" - Annealed Lapua brass - CCI BR2 primer - 2700 fps at 80F ambient

Sometimes you just have to suck it up and load a bunch in stepped powder charges then pull later if they don't work out. Part of the reloading game.

 

[VSP968]

How big is your chamber? How much lede or freebore do you have? How long can you load your Juggernaut Target or OTM bullets?
Or as @918v asked, do you plan to single feed? All of this matters regarding case capacity. Forget about feeding from a magazine.
You’re gonna expend a bunch of powder and primers and projectiles figuring out what you can get away with and what works downrange for you and your rifle.
My 1K 308 Lapua/185 Juggernaut Target load is well above 44gr of Varget and my COAL is over 2.9XXX; your mileage will vary and you’ll have to work up to your load incrementally just like the rest of us did.

 

[Whiskey Tango Foxtrot]

Had to go look at my notes.
I was able to get the 185s up to 2822fps with 2000mr powder. , single feed.
But, this was with a custom built 30" deep throated FTR build.
With my 5r was able to get them just over 2700fps.
To be good at 1000yrd with a 185 you have to be faster than 2675fps.

 

[boisepaw]

Why not just step up to a larger case........

I’m not sure I understand the question.

 

[boisepaw]

Are you going to single feed it?

Because…? Will the bullet be too long in avoiding compressing the powder or…what am I missing here?

 

[boisepaw]

How big is your chamber? How much lede or freebore do you have? How long can you load your Juggernaut Target or OTM bullets?
Or as @918v asked, do you plan to single feed? All of this matters regarding case capacity. Forget about feeding from a magazine.
You’re gonna expend a bunch of powder and primers and projectiles figuring out what you can get away with and what works downrange for you and your rifle.
My 1K 308 Lapua/185 Juggernaut Target load is well above 44gr of Varget and my COAL is over 2.9XXX; your mileage will vary and you’ll have to work up to your load incrementally just like the rest of us did.

I haven’t loaded a single one yet. So I don’t have all those answers.

 

[918v]

Because…? Will the bullet be too long in avoiding compressing the powder or…what am I missing here?

In order to get the velocity you want you will have to seat the bullet long just to get the powder to fit. The round won’t fit in your magazine.

 

[nn8734]

I haven’t loaded a single one yet. So I don’t have all those answers.

Do a pressure ladder. Start 2g below “book” max, .3 or .4g increments, one round per charge weight and see at what charge weight you first see pressure in your rifle with your components loaded per your procedures. Shoot over a chrono so you get MVs.

Otherwise, no one else is going to be able to answer the questions you are asking, except for you.

If velocities aren’t to your liking (or they are but you’re over pressure when achieving them), build a 300 wsm or win mag/PRC.

Generally, I shoot for 2575-2600 fps w/the 185 jug in a .308 which should be achieved safely w/ a 26” bbl using Varget but you need to put in the work to know if you can in your rifle. If that’s too slow for your needs, it’s time to step up to a magnum.

 

[FCS]

Because…? Will the bullet be too long in avoiding compressing the powder or…what am I missing here?

You will be longer than 2.800” OAL, will not fit in 700 BDL magazine. You’ll be longer than 2.870” OAL, won’t fit in an AICS magazine w/binder plate.
Even at 2.900” OAL, you’ll still be jumping the 185 Juggernaut over 0.060” in factory Rem 700 chamber; Juggernaut takes jump just fine.

Longer OAL, plenty of jump will also lower your pressure vs 2.800” OAL and chamber with less freebore.

I’d use Varget and run an OAL of 2.920” (from memory that is roughly where BT/bearing junction is just above N/S junction for 185 Juggernaut) for a factory Rem 700 chamber. You’ll have to single load round into chamber unless using AICS mag w/o front binder plate and notch feed ramp in rifle as longer than 2.900” won’t pass through existing opening in receiver.

 

[boisepaw]

In order to get the velocity you want you will have to seat the bullet long just to get the powder to fit. The round won’t fit in your magazine.

Got it! Thanks. I might have to go back to my 168 & 175 grain SMK’s.

 

[camocorvette]

My understanding with the jugs and other heavier class bullets. It's not the speed that gets you there, it's the bullet to bullet consistency and high bc. While you would do well to try for the highest safe velocity in your gun. You also have to worry about temps swings. Which can drastically increase pressure depending on your powder choice.
All the advice above is good advice. Double check you info and components, then start low and work your way up.

Or be in a hurry to find a wonder load and fuck it all up.

 

[FCS]

I was mistaken, 2.870” OAL puts BT / bearing at N/S.
Juggernaut takes jump just fine.
Stay w/185 Juggernaut for your longer range use, does appreciably better than 175 SMK.

 

[Im2bent]

My understanding with the jugs and other heavier class bullets. It's not the speed that gets you there, it's the bullet to bullet consistency and high bc. While you would do well to try for the highest safe velocity in your gun. You also have to worry about temps swings. Which can drastically increase pressure depending on your powder choice.
All the advice above is good advice. Double check you info and components, then start low and work your way up.

Or be in a hurry to find a wonder load and fuck it all up. View attachment 7884661

Hmmmm never thought to fireform 375ct from a 308 case....

 

[Barelstroker]

The rifle is a Remington 700 Varminter stock rifle...1:10 twist...26" fluted barrel. I want to work up a long range load for the Berger Juggernaut 185 grain bullets. I'll be loading Lapua brass with Federal Match primers. Seating depth YTBD. I have H4895, IMR 4895, IMR 4064 and Varget.

I understand that reloading manuals have upper limits on charge weight for liability reasons amongst other things. And I understand that no one is going to casually tell me to go beyond those limits. I'm doing some searches to get some idea about loads and see lots of folks who are exceeding Berger manual limits..

For example, with Varget, the Berger manual says that 41.6 gr. is their maximum load. But that is also an approximate maximum velocity of 2535 which might be a little slow to reach out to longer range targets. With the four powders mentioned above, the maximum velocity is from 2532 to 2604.

Then I run across the guy who says he's worked up to 44.2 grains of Varget with the Juggernaut (Lapua brass). That's a LOT more powder than the manual offers for the maximum charge.

Obviously one will look for pressure signs along the way but...do I need to be a good boy and stay below the maximum loads according to the manual (H4895 is 40.5, IMR 4064 is 41, IMR 4895 is 41.5 and again, Varget is 41.6)? Or can I start close to that maximum load and work beyond it?

I'd rather not load a bunch of rounds that I'll just have to take apart if I start seeing pressure signs right away while shooting at the range that is a half hour away.

And if anyone has their own pet loads for the Juggernaut for 308, I'd love to hear them.

I understand that reloading manuals have upper limits on charge weight for liability reasons amongst other things.

I don't think reliability has much do with the warnings every reloading manual prints.
Powder doesn't react linearly when you add more powder beyond certain pre-determined limits which, are determined with expensive testing & gear & extensive knowledge.
The best decision is to dogmatically work within the charge limits assigned to the cartridge & bullet weight.
Determining max powder charge outside of the measured limits is not an area where it's wise to be creative.

 

[FCS]

I don't think reliability has much do with the warnings every reloading manual prints….

I agree it has nothing to do with reliability, I also agree with OP about liability.

 

[918v]

My understanding with the jugs and other heavier class bullets. It's not the speed that gets you there, it's the bullet to bullet consistency and high bc. While you would do well to try for the highest safe velocity in your gun. You also have to worry about temps swings. Which can drastically increase pressure depending on your powder choice.
All the advice above is good advice. Double check you info and components, then start low and work your way up.

Or be in a hurry to find a wonder load and fuck it all up. View attachment 7884661

Reaming out primer pockets to accept 50BMG primers is one way to get extra velocity from your 308.

 

[FCS]

Got it! Thanks. I might have to go back to my 168 & 175 grain SMK’s.

OP, if you want 2.800” OAL ammo to feed via factory Rem 700 mag box and improved LR performance vs 168 / 175 SMK, the 190 SMK / NCC is worth looking at.
You gain more in BC than you lose in velocity.

 

[db2000]

Do a pressure ladder. Start 2g below “book” max, .3 or .4g increments, one round per charge weight and see at what charge weight you first see pressure in your rifle with your components loaded per your procedures. Shoot over a chrono so you get MVs.

Otherwise, no one else is going to be able to answer the questions you are asking, except for you.

If velocities aren’t to your liking (or they are but you’re over pressure when achieving them), build a 300 wsm or win mag/PRC.

Generally, I shoot for 2575-2600 fps w/the 185 jug in a .308 which should be achieved safely w/ a 26” bbl using Varget but you need to put in the work to know if you can in your rifle. If that’s too slow for your needs, it’s time to step up to a magnum.

^^^ This

The 185 Jugg is gonna give you better ballistics than 168/175 for 500-1000 yd, which is the max you could hunt with and there’s better calibers for 1000 yd anyway.

 

[KZP]

....and there’s better calibers for 1000 yd anyway.

 

[Im2bent]

 

[boisepaw]

My understanding with the jugs and other heavier class bullets. It's not the speed that gets you there, it's the bullet to bullet consistency and high bc. While you would do well to try for the highest safe velocity in your gun. You also have to worry about temps swings. Which can drastically increase pressure depending on your powder choice.
All the advice above is good advice. Double check you info and components, then start low and work your way up.

Or be in a hurry to find a wonder load and fuck it all up. View attachment 7884661

The FIAU part? I am perfectly capable of doing that!

 

[supercorndogs]

My understanding with the jugs and other heavier class bullets. It's not the speed that gets you there, it's the bullet to bullet consistency and high bc. While you would do well to try for the highest safe velocity in your gun. You also have to worry about temps swings. Which can drastically increase pressure depending on your powder choice.
All the advice above is good advice. Double check you info and components, then start low and work your way up.

Or be in a hurry to find a wonder load and fuck it all up. View attachment 7884661

The photo is what came to mind when I saw the thread title. 2000mr i think is the current king of FPS with heavies in the 308. I shoot 175s at 2612 {Varget} and 2735 {RL15}. My factory remington 308 barrel couldnt touch the lands and keep a 208 a max in the case even.

I am always kind of surprised we don't see more 168s pushed faster rather than going heavier.

 

[camocorvette]

The photo is what came to mind when I saw the thread title. 2000mr i think is the current king of FPS with heavies in the 308. I shoot 175s at 2612 {Varget} and 2735 {RL15}. My factory remington 308 barrel couldnt touch the lands and keep a 208 a max in the case even.

I am always kind of surprised we don't see more 168s pushed faster rather than going heavier.

Yeah that was too much CFE223 in a soft FC case. Like probably 1.5-2 grains over max for that case.
2000MR is awesome. I've been zipping 155 Scenars at 2950 out of my 308 and it works pretty dang good.

 

[matt452326]

Ive had no problems my load is
43.0gr varget
185gr juggernaut
Lapua brass
CcI 450 primers
2.260 oal
Getting 2658fps

I was even told i could go up to 44.2gr and not have any problems because i should be getting 2750fps from that load

 

[918v]

Whoever told you that is incorrect.

 

[memilanuk]

Whoever told you that is incorrect.

...or maybe they were thinking in terms of an FTR specific chamber, where that bullet would be seated *way* further out, & you can (generally) get away with putting a lot more powder behind it. And a lot more barrel to burn that powder in.

2.260 oal

...me thinks your OAL is off a fuzz

 

[918v]

...or maybe they were thinking in terms of an FTR specific chamber, where that bullet would be seated *way* further out, & you can (generally) get away with putting a lot more powder behind it.

And that’s a problem with handing out reloading advice. 308 chambers vary and what works for one may not work for another especially when running hot loads. I got major pressure signs with 42grs of Varget under the Jug in a Lapua case at 2.920” coal in my TRG22. So when I see 44+ grains being discussed I cringe.

 

[KZP]

...or maybe they were thinking in terms of an FTR specific chamber, where that bullet would be seated *way* further out, & you can (generally) get away with putting a lot more powder behind it.


...me thinks your OAL is off a fuzz

 

[memilanuk]

And that’s a problem with handing out reloading advice. 308 chambers vary and what works for one may not work for another especially when running hot loads. I got major pressure signs with 42grs of Varget under the Jug in a Lapua case at 2.920” coal in my TRG22. So when I see 44+ grains being discussed I cringe.

You don't even want know what some of the Aussies were loading those things to for the 2013 FCWC

 

[Im2bent]

View attachment 7891598
View attachment 7891596

Seems legit..

 

[TheChief]

Had to go look at my notes.

I was able to get the 185s up to 2822fps with 2000mr powder. , single feed.
But, this was with a custom built 30" deep throated FTR build.
With my 5r was able to get them just over 2700fps.
To be good at 1000yrd with a 185 you have to be faster than 2675fp

Are you kidding me? A 185 Berger at 2550 is still supersonic to 1100 meters. It would be fine at 1000. Would it have less drop with more speed? Sure, but it wouldn't make it more accurate. Personally, I'd run a hot 155TMK load. The BC on it is great, and you can push them really fast. They will rock at longer ranges, and cost less to shoot than Berger 185's.