Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

[bengates]

Well, I was going to sell a bunch of stuff to purchase a DTA, but I got side tracked when a good gunsmith friend told me that he is closing shop and moving out of state. I always wanted him to build me a bolt gun, but never got around to it. So, since he's only going to be here for another 6 months or so I thought I'd grab some parts and have him build me a 700 style .308.

I ordered a Bartlein barrel from CS Tactical (thanks guys!) partly because they're supposed to be good, and mostly because many other barrel makers are MONTHS behind and I just don't have the time. Barrel - check.

Now, I have to decide on the action. My frined is a bit more old school and thinks I should get a Surgeon action solely because he's unfamiliar with some of the newer stuff out there. They are sweet for sure and I have heard nothing but the best from anyone who owns their sticks. However, since I'm in Colorado I'm kinda leaning toward the Bighorn Action (support the locals). I've seen Ray's Bighorn action (from TBAC), but I never really looked hard at it. I know he likes them along with several other respected shooters, but there's this little voice in the back of my head that is telling me that the floating bolt face is not as strong as a traditional 700 style solid bolt. That may not be true, but that's what the voices are saying!

The $64K question is - Bighorn or Surgeon? Aside from personal preference, are there any unforeseen issues that I might run up against with the Bighorn and it's floating head design? Some people like the design, some don't - I just like sexy looking accurate stuff!

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Bighorn's rock, I would support CO and go in that direction, AJ does an awesome job on them.

I have two myself, and they are super accurate

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Ever since I got to play with one a bare action a couple years back and actually played with a completed rifle, I would go with a Big Horn.

 

[Quickdraw40]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Bighorn

 

[bengates]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Wow, sounds good so far! I do like the Bighorn, so thanks for the input. Any other opinions would be welcome.

 

[psinclair]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I'll throw in a vote for Surgeon. I have four rifles built around them(3, 591's, 1 XL) and they all shoot and function great. Preston and the boys are good guys and great to deal with..

 

[blklabs]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Surgeon all the way!

 

[Cigarcop]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PGS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll throw in a vote for Surgeon. I have four rifles built around them(3, 591's, 1 XL) and they all shoot and function great. Preston and the boys are good guys and great to deal with.. </div></div> Couldn't agree more!

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

if your motive is having this particular smith build you a rifle and he'd prefer to build on a Surgeon that'd be the route to go.

 

[Skyking]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Bighorn all the way. No worries with them. I have one now, and two more on the way. They are that good! There is a reason Bighorn took first and second at Ray's match.

 

[KevinU]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Easy choice, you are just down the road from AJ. Take a short drive and put one of his actions in your hand.

My brother built a 6BR on his single shot action. I'll have one of his actions soon.

 

[swage]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I was struggling with making the same decision a few months ago. Ultimately I went with the Surgeon. After talking to several well respected smiths who post here, they all recommended the Surgeon. That was good enough for me. Having said that I do like how the Big Horn looks and the fact that you can switch the bolt face. I'd say follow your gut on this one.

 

[bengates]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if your motive is having this particular smith build you a rifle and he'd prefer to build on a Surgeon that'd be the route to go.

</div></div>

That's a good thought, but you kinda have to take it with a grain of salt. He just doesn't like "new fangled things"!

 

[Chance]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

The Bighorn looks very nice, but I would go with the Surgeon. It is more expensive, but it comes with the recoil lug built in (ability to become switch barrel); comes with built in 20 MOA rail; one piece bolt; built in reputation for machining accuracy.

 

[Sleeper]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Never used a Bighorn, but I really like my surgeon

 

[Pusher591]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I just bought a Surgeon and I'm extremely excited. I have shot 2 Surgeon 591's and both were 1/4-1/2 moa consistently. Very smooth and boy they do look good. I agree with the gentleman above who stated go with the Surgeon if that is what he has worked with. Less worry if the gun is gonna come out "good enough".

I have heard and seen good things about the Bighorn. Call and find out about the BH and see if your smith will have any trouble. If it fits into a 700 action stock easy then flip a coin.

 

[Dionis]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Surgeon and Bighorn are two different animals... I have .308 rifle build on surgeon sa action with bartlein barrel . The rifle is very accurate and i like surgeon action. I recently bought another surgeon la with bartlein barrel for .284 project, so i give my vote for surgeon.

 

[bengates]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I thought that this thread was going all Bighorn, but it looks like folks are rooting for the Surgeon as well. However, though I value everyone's opinion, is there anyone who has any empirical evidence that would make you shy away from the Bighorn, or that makes the Surgeon actually better?

I'm leaning towards the Bighorn because it seems like they took the traditional and intentionally sought to make that action a little better. The surgeon is a thing of machined beauty and will absolutely always hold a high level of regard in the accuracy world. I suppose that I would like to try something a little different in hopes that it may be better or may be unique. But, i just don't want to get into anything that could fail or cause unforeseeable problems.

 

[73MCRD]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I never shot a Bighorn, but there is no way it could be smoother that a Surgeon imo.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Honestly I don't think enough people have used the Bighorn so the only reason you aren't seeing more people remark beyond the affirmative for Surgeon is the fact it hasn't been around as long. Surgeons have been around for much longer so there are bound to be more people using it thus recommending it.

Locally here in CO, the guys using the Bighorn are running them hard and with great success. AJ is a well respected smith, machinist and his actions are well built with some nice features. The floating bolt head is great design, especially in a tactical action. The NP3 coating AJ uses on the bolt also helps. After having used both when I needed another action for the Robert Gradous Build Class I am doing this month the Bighorn was my first choice. I know talking with Moon from GAP about them, he felt they were an excellent action.

Also, consider you can get the action purpose built for either AICS Magazine or AW magazine which is a plus. I've had a love hate relationship with custom actions over the last few years, and that includes Surgeon, but the Bighorn has been flawless for me so far, and is one of my favorite rifles.

Again, since you are local, I would recommend supporting a local company, not to mention a first class guy. The reality is, while you can't go wrong either way, you can save a few dollars to boot. I would say, Call AJ, set up a day to go to his shop and see the quality and detail of his work in person. If you aren't impressed you can leave and buy a Surgeon, secure in your decision either way.

PS, FYI, yes it is smoother in my opinion, the NP3 coating, floating head and precision machining practices of AJ are just a few reasons.

 

[Dionis]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

H1 or FJ Cruiser ?...

 

[300ATT]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Bighorn ... Had a 260 built using parts from a long range 6.5x284 "any-any" gun (Chanlynn barrel) and it shot unbelievably well...

I should add that I did a ladder test (42.0 - 44.5 gr of H4350)at 200 yards using sierra 142 gr bullets and 8 shots printed a group of 1" ...

 

[bengates]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Thank you Lowlight! That's more of what I was looking for. I am going to try the Bighorn action and see how it works. Paul at Trigger Time just got some in and is holding it for me this weekend. He also speaks highly of them and currently owns every action from nearly every high end rifle maker. He said that the bighorn is the only action he will buy now.

Thanks for everyone's opinion and feedback. I will get the action this weekend and post some pictures or it and the intended build.

Happy shooting!

 

[Papagallos]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Have there been any issues with their 2-piece bolt?

 

[bengates]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Papagallos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have there been any issues with their 2-piece bolt? </div></div>

That's exactly what I wanted to know! But apparently not.

 

[223ai]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

The bolt is precision tig welded, it isn't moving.

My bighorn has proven to be utterly reliable and very accurate. AJ is a great guy and has put a lot of thought into the details of making the action.

Lowlight's assessment is spot on. <span style="text-decoration: line-through">Buy one and you won't want anything else.</span> I handled a 591 this weekend, and it was pretty awesome. Get both!

 

[Papagallos]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bolt is precision tig welded, it isn't moving.

My bighorn has proven to be utterly reliable and very accurate. AJ is a great guy and has put a lot of thought into the details of making the action.

Lowlight's assessment is spot on. Buy one and you won't want anything else. </div></div>

Sounds like you've got a lifetime partner.

 

[Mgordon]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

AJ and his Big Horn action are great. The side bolt release is clean and well though out. The bolt is smooth and offers the floating bolt head which will give you complete bolt lug contact. They use a nice extended rail for plenty of mounting options and have a pinned recoil lug. Machining is top notch and AJ really thought out how to build an action correctly and then executed it!

Mark

 

[bohem]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I agree with Mark and Frank; the BigHorn is the way to go.

I took a hard look at various customs and spent time on the phone with AJ before committing to the action.

I have been shooting it for only about a month at this point, I'm over 500 rounds through the gun and probably 2k cycles from dry firing. The action is well thought out, extremely smooth, and almost boring to shoot because the rifle is so reliable and accurate. That's not to say I don't want to shoot it, because inside of 1000yd the handy short action has virtually replaced everything else in my stable.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Rifleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never shot a Bighorn, but there is no way it could be smoother that a Surgeon imo. </div></div>

That's a pretty tall statement if you have no experience with the other half of this comparison. There are a number of rifle actions smoother than Surgeons, starting with something built more than 100 years ago in Austria.

 

[bengates]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D Ice 308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">H1 or FJ Cruiser ?...</div></div>

Is the Bighorn the H1? Because that would be cool!

 

[Outback]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Surgeon has a proven record on being a consistent match winner and top 10 finishing action. There has been a lot of r& d go into the surgeon action by three top gunsmiths. They would be my choice hands down. There is a lot of hidden features to the 591 action in particular. Go to there web site and check it out.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I agree with outback on the track record of Surgeon. I still really love the fact the rail and lug are integral. I know stuff can be single or double pinned but I still feel for a end all gun I would prefer the Surgeon.

Some people complain that for the money the Surgeon is still "old school" technology but if you are out in the field and needs parts many of the factory 700 parts are interchangeable. Either way you go I'm sure you will be happy.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Bighorn just took 1st Place at the Steel Safari Match in NM, which is known to have made lesser custom actions buckle.

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zu9JEoHMBPA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Not as well known outside CO but spreading outward... also Mark Chanlynn has been around for a very long time, his stuff is used by the AMU. He is part of the Bighorn operation. Not to mention AJ does some machining for ThunderBeast Arms, so not being a vocal about their work doesn't make it any less reliable. One of those local treasure things.


Plus I think he already made his decision.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I would love to have a Bighorn and from reading about it if I could go back I would probably have gotten it but it just seems some are acting as if Surgeon is outdated and I just do not feel that way.

Op, post pics when you are done cause I will enjoy looking at it either way you go.

 

[taliv]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

*cough* and 1st at Mammoth

 

[bengates]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Plus I think he already made his decision.

</div></div>

Yeah, pretty much. I think the surgeon is nice, but I'm going to do the Bigorn. Maybe I'll even try the Steel Safari once it's built . . . and I become a good shooter!

 

[Outback]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Shoot em all. The more shooters the better

 

[KYS]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I had George at GAP do my build using the Bighorn action. He said it was the first one he had ever worked with. He also noted how easy it was to work on. I used a Bighorn short action, Bartlein Barrel, and KMW Sentinel stock. It turned out great. I have taken it hog hunting 3 times now and never had a hiccup.

I will use them again shortly for a 300WM build.

 

[distantfoe]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I had intended to build on a 1086 but due to availability had to go with an alternative. Ended up with a bighorn and can honestly say that I'm impressed. It's extremely well thought out and very smooth.

 

[Outback]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bighorn just took 1st Place at the Steel Safari Match in NM, which is known to have made lesser custom actions buckle.

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zu9JEoHMBPA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Not as well known outside CO but spreading outward... also Mark Chanlynn has been around for a very long time, his stuff is used by the AMU. He is part of the Bighorn operation. Not to mention AJ does some machining for ThunderBeast Arms, so not being a vocal about their work doesn't make it any less reliable. One of those local treasure things.


Plus I think he already made his decision.

</div></div>

Lets not start on who's won what.We know who the winner is there .

 

[Outback]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

Btt

 

[LRB45]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I've heard that the Surgeon actions sometimes are not up to hard use and that dirty conditions will cause problems. Are these rumors justified?

Are there any other actions out there that a person can use to build a really reliable hard use type gun? What other actions are recommended?

Don't want to side track this thread too much though.

 

[223ai]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I'll be purchasing a 591 this week after handling Alpha's...

 

[Pusher591]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRB45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard that the Surgeon actions sometimes are not up to hard use and that dirty conditions will cause problems. Are these rumors justified?

Are there any other actions out there that a person can use to build a really reliable hard use type gun? What other actions are recommended?

Don't want to side track this thread too much though. </div></div>

I have a 591 build in the works with Short Action Customs. He is performing his "LBC" mod to it. Long story short it allows clearance in certain areas that do not directly effect the accuracy. Look up the thread and read about his mod, it's very interesting.

Mark stated with the LBC mod my 591 should not have any trouble in harsher conditions and it will still maintain it's close tolerances.

 

[pc3]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRB45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard that the Surgeon actions sometimes are not up to hard use and that dirty conditions will cause problems. Are these rumors justified?

Are there any other actions out there that a person can use to build a really reliable hard use type gun? What other actions are recommended?

Don't want to side track this thread too much though.</div></div>

This news to me...........I thought surgeon where a very rugged action, I have a rifle on a 591 and it handles the extremely fine red dust of the out back that infiltrates every little nook and cranny on equipment with aplomb.

 

[sawhornsoff]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRB45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard that the Surgeon actions sometimes are not up to hard use and that dirty conditions will cause problems. Are these rumors justified?

Are there any other actions out there that a person can use to build a really reliable hard use type gun? What other actions are recommended?

Don't want to side track this thread too much though.</div></div>

I shoot at a fairly dusty range that has been worse recently with the drought. My bolts are gritty with dust by the end of a session. At the end of the day the only cleaning that happens is that I may wipe the bolt if I think about it. The only repeater actions I use are Surgeons. Before they came up with their current bolt dimensions, I ordered all my actions with their tight "target" bolt. I never have issues using their "target" bolt and their current bolt dimensions are tight but have room on cycling like their older "tactical" bolt.

As far as rugged goes, you can't beat an integral rail, integral lug and one piece bolt.

 

[Outback]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taliv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">*cough* and 1st at Mammoth </div></div>

Mammoth Sniper Challenge 2010 i believe was Surgeon
1st,2nd, &3rd

 

[taliv]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

I didn't know there was a Mammoth 2010. There's no mention of it on their website.

 

[Tangodown911]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sawhornsoff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as rugged goes, you can't beat an integral rail, integral lug and one piece bolt. </div></div>

Herein lies the simplicity of a 591 and the reason I consider it to trump other actions for consistency and accuracy.

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: Bighorn Action or Surgeon Action?!?

No.
The rumors are not justified.

Main reason is that all of the "problems" were caused by things other than the action.

You can hang a complicated target trigger on any action and quadruple the risk of the rifle going down in a dirty field enviromnent. It has been done many times and there is plenty of video of the guys struggling with the rifle because of it.

You can put a minimum headspace match type chamber on any action and quadruple the risk of the rifle going down in a dirty field environment. It has been done many times and there is plenty of video of the guys struggling with the rifle because of it.

You can load and try to shoot ammunition that is prepared with benchrest techniques (neck size only, tight neck, no shoulder bump, etc. . . . ) and quaduple the risk of the rifle going down in a dirty field environment. It has been done many times and there is plenty of video of the guys struggling with the rifle because of it.

You can fit a barreled action into a new whiz bang stock so poorly that the DBM doesn't work right and jack with perfectly good magazines in an attempt to correct the fucked up fitting to the point that the rifle does not feed correctly under most field conditions. It has been done many times and there is plenty of video of the guys struggling with the rifle because of it.

I could go on and on for a while. . . . . . .You can only imagine the outcome if you were to combine two or more of the above into one rifle setup.

The bottom line is you can build a rifle with the best action out there and still sabotage the complete package by making poor choices on the specs that follow after your action choice.

I have seen this exact thing happen with many actions including AI AW and AI AE.

My opinion only.
Be safe,
Terry