Bighorn TL3 / XLR Shouldered and Prefit Switch barrel testing/review

#54
reubenski said:
I called James at NSS and asked him if they/ he would sell prefit shouldered barrels for TL3's to get the best of both worlds. Unfortunately he won't. As of now, if you want the speed of a shouldered switch barrel you'll have to pay more.

​​​​​My shouldered prefits cost $745 each. I haven't considered remage/ Savage bc I want to change barrels anywhere without dissembling any part of the chassis or scope. I have 800 rds on my K&P Dasher barrel. It is shooting great but the throat has eroded .040" over the 800rds. I placed 1st, 2nd and 4th with it torqued in at 40ft/lbs over the last three weeks at local matches. Just got a Krieger and will have it chambered up and will be able to get it broken in and load developed while still shooting the K&P bc of the ease and speed of switching barrels. When the K&P stops shooting I'll be able to seamlessly switch over to the Krieger and use the old barrel to fireform without having to use a barrel vise or get weird brass dimensions from using differently chambered and installed barrel nut prefits.

Using a Trmr 2 and locking turrets I just dial on the differing zeros between my 223 Wylde practice barrel and the Dasher. Once the 308 Palma barrel is chambered I'll establish the zero offset and just hold for all of my shooting like I do on the previous two barrels. The 223 and Dasher return to zero perfectly once reinstalled.

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Why not get a prefit and lock the nut in position via set screws or locktite. Or even better measure the distance from the shoulder of the barrel to the barrel nut and have a custom one made? Odds are with any manufacturer they will be +/-.002 difference between CNC turned prefit barrels
 
#55
This is why the TL3 is such a great switch barrel action. The tolerances are so tight, the smith doesnt need the action back each time to spin up shouldered barrels each time after having it in the shop the first time. I have Bartlein shouldered barrels for my TL3. This thread is to test how the savage prefits stack up for half the cost.
 
#57
I think the fact that so many folks are interested in this concept should tell the industry something.. Precision rifle folks want relative standardization, and the majority would rather not have to customize.

We are an amazon culture that wants our shit good and quick. I want to buy a pre threaded barrel online that will shoot ridiculous.
I don't want to have to be 'that guy' who calls the shop to hear 'oh it's been a crazy week'... your order is in the works.

It's a pain/ intimidating/ frustrating to deal with an overworked handful of smiths to then wait for turn around time to shoot the rifle again.
Enter some of the CNC geniuses- PVA, LRI, etc. that are melding this idea. But supply ain't close to what the market wants.
 
#58
On the whole remove the ejector thing, that usually has to do with plunger style ejectors that can push the case up off the bolt face. That can screw with your headspace. If you aren't using a wrench cut for the Bighorn ejector you could mangle it if you left it in place and jammed the wrench in. Bighorn and PVA sell wrenches with a groove so you don't have to remove the ejector first.
 
#60
reubenski said:
Ya, I totally agree. Cool test BTW. It sounds like it may just boil down to a Shilen vs. Bartlein test though. Lots of guys running savage prefits already and getting good results. I'm sure Bighorn wouldn't have tailored their action to the capability if those barrels don't perform. I would be interested in a Criterion vs. Shilen select match test. Although it may be difficult to suss out the true differences with all of the potential variables that could influence the accuracy comparison as a previous post'r mentioned. When comparing one manufacturer to another I think one would have to compare an aggregate of dozens of barrels.

Another thought for you PADOM, is I think when most folks think of quality in a barrel they think of accuracy. I think accuracy is becoming one of the easier characteristics to achieve these days for manufacturers. I'm starting to think longevity is my next criteria for quality. I paid $285 for the K&P and $315 for the Krieger. If the Krieger's throat lasts longer I will gladly pay $30 more. In fact, how much would you more would you pay for a barrel that gets 20% to 40% more barrel life given the same accuracy. In my experience those sweet .2's don't always last for 2000rds and if your throat is growing you're forced to chase the lands(best case) or develop another load (often the case) and then you're getting less, effective-barrel life and spending more on components. So, I'm also curious how the life of those cheaper Shilen barrels goes but given it's a .223 we may have to wait a while to see. At any rate do you know where Shilen sources their barrel steel from? Is it a softer european source?

BTW, I hope you don't take offense to my post on your thread. I figured folks may be attracted to the thread by the title and would like to see how people are achieving switch-barrel'ness. And hey! I have a XLR/ TL3 switch barrel, ha ha! I also thought it serves as another data point for accuracy, in addition to yours, using shouldered prefits that switch regularly on the gun(specifically not a gunsmith-installed shouldered barrel that was taken off with a barrel vise and action wrench). To be completely transparent, my sub-agenda is the satisfaction of people realizing they can build true switch-barrels for no extra cost and don't need to spend the $7000 to $9000 of a CADEX, AI, Surgeon CSR, or MSR. I like these threads bc it is a good day when all these options, variations, and variety of quality DIY barrels are available to us and the more people see that the more satisfaction I get.



My goal isn't to use the cheapest barrel (right now). I want to switch barrels anywhere, quickly without inducing the errors incurred by disassembling the rifle. Locktite'ing a barrel nut sounds a little problematic and having a custom barrel nut or savage prefit made sounds like you would lose the cost savings when it is all said and done. And isn't that what a shouldered prefit is anyway? A custom threaded machined shoulder/ "nut" to consistently seat on one specific action? Regardless, you could you buy a savage prefit and locktite the nut and tell us how it works out and then I'll guess we know. But we disgress and this discussion distracts from PADOM's intent with this thread of comparing Savage pre-fits to shouldered barrels.
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Using locktite on a barrel nut is about as new as dropping a LS3 into just about anything you want to go fast... Nobody is trying to re-invent the wheel here. I have 3 barrels (all prefits) for my Savage threaded SR2. All have the nuts locktited. Spin them on and off just like a shouldered barrel.

I'm going to pick one of these up to try in the field with a torque wrench and compare to just using a regular strap wrench.


 
#62
I was able to take it out today and put some rounds through it. Didnt load for it, just grabbed some XBR/75BTHP handloads I had on the shelf for my 20" Shillen 1:8 AR. Not too bad but not the results Im looking for. The top left group is the first group I shot going left to right. Those 2 shots high and left were the first 2 shots out of the gun. I am going to load up an OCW tonight with 70RDF and shoot them tomorrow while I wait for my 75 ELD-M's to arrive.


[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/IMHVnpR.jpg"}[/IMG2]

 
#63
reubenski said:
Good to know. Sounds like you have already harvested the results PADOM is going after. Do you always get the freebore you're looking for in those prefits? Also, if you don't mind me asking, how many barrels a year do you go through. Wondering how durable those .. Criterion? Shilen? ...are.
Click to expand...


I dont believe Ive seen the results Im after yet... Im not testing how to install a savage prefit barrel, or how to make it quicker or easier but I do appreciate that info in my thread for others to read. Im testing how a savage prefit barrel stacks up to the cut rifled shouldered barrels for half the cost because a lot of people have been wondering or asking. We all know you can have cut rifled shouldered barrels spun up (Bartlein, Kreiger, Hawk Hill, Rock, etc.) and they will shoot lights out. I have never seen consistent data out there on how the prefits shoot. I have talked to a lot of people about this. Some have got absolute tack drivers, some have got duds. Some shoot 0.75-1.0moa. From the info I have gathered it seems people have gotten better shooting barrels on a more consistent basis from the Shillen Stainless Select Match vs the Criterion Stainless Match. I have heard not so consistent results from the Criterion Stainless Match barrels but I have heard of people getting tack drivers from them as well.

I have never owned one so I wanted to give one a go and see how it shoots. I will post my results so people can decide if a Shillen prefit for $340 fits their needs vs say having a smith spin them up a shouldered barrel for $725-750. I also agree that me testing one barrel isnt a big enough sample size to draw 100% conclusions here. Take the info I provide as you see fit.
 
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#64
I think it's a good thread so people can see the results even if it is just a small sample. I think the prefits fit a lot of peoples budget and the accuracy requirements. I know a lot of people will say it isn't good enough for them because they shoot 1/4 moa all day long if they do their part but I would honestly be happy with your results out of this barrel.
 
#65
Yea I mean for the cost if money is an issue someone could buy a TL3 and 2 barrels and shoot 2 calibers for the price of one shouldered barrel. Gives people options and something to think about. Installing the barrel with the GO and NO-GO is super easy.

Im hoping for smaller, more consistent groups once I work up loads for this gun.
 
#69
This will be interesting to see how both barrels stack up against each other. Thanks for taking the time and money to do this.

For what it's worth, I had a Criterion 260 prefit on a Savage long action that was a laser. It was kinda picky and took a couple bullet/ powder combinations to find something it liked but it hammered after that. I still regret selling it.
 
#70
I used to shoot benchrest matches at a few local clubs. I had a 18lbs rifle using a savage pta with a 6br shillen prefit. That rifle was a flat out tack driver. I have very little interest or desire to shoot benchrest anymore but i do miss that rifle from time to time. After seeing how well that rifle shot and how my current prefits shoot, i have no doubts in the accuracy potential of a prefit.


On a side note. I would bet money that the majority of the shooters commenting on this couldn't shoot well enough to see the difference between the two. Myself included. Very interesting thread thanks for posting your results

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


 
#71
Very intruiged as well. I have a TL3 and am about to either have Josh cut me three more barrels (.308, 6.5 Creed, 6 Dash) at North of $2k, or look seriously at this nut system, of which I know nothing.

Anyone know if barrel nuts fit in the MPA chassis?
 
#73
reubenski said:
Earthquake, I also had concerns about a nut fitting under the Evolution handguard, although it doesn't seem to be a problem after all looking at Padom's rifle. That however directed me towards the Bug-nut. In the end I decided not to do one bc he didn't have the freebore on his reamers I was looking for.
Click to expand...

I called Matt over at XLR before starting this project as I was also wondering if a nut cleared say a Bighorn TL2/3 inletted chassis or if I need a special chassis inlet. I was told they are milled to clear nuts no problem and isnt an issue. Sure enough, I dropped my TL3 barreled action with the NSS nut in my TL3 inletted XLR Evolution and it had zero clearance issues.
 
#74
So I just got back from the range. Shot OCW's with Varget and the 70RDF and 77TMK. This barrel is really starting to shine accuracy wise once I tailored loads for it. I am not happy with Varget though. Velocity is extremely slow for a 16" bolt gun. With 23.8g of 8208XBR with the 75BTHP's that I grabbed off the shelf for my 20" Shillen AR, I was getting 2930. That same load shoots 2801 in my 20" Shillen 1:8 AR15. With almost 0.5g more powder of Varget than 8208XBR I am not even close to those numbers. Also not amazed with the SD's as well. Accuracy is there though. Pretty wide node with 77TMK based solely off POI, and before getting home and looking at the chrono numbers on the LabRadar I would have selected 23.9g for the 70RDF and sure enough that had the best SD. These were loaded long...0.005 off with the 70RDF and 0.01 off with the 77TMK. The 77TMK had slight pressure signs with the highest two charge weights. Started to get a slightly sticky bolt, slight ejector mark and slightly flattened primers. 70RDF was not quite as bad but primers started getting flat at the highest two charge weights.

I am actually glad Varget wasnt the best powder for this setup. Even though I have a bunch of it, its my go to for my x47L and 308 AR10. I have so many other powders in large quantities on the shelf Im going to move on from Varget and test other powders. Next up will be 8208XBR and probably RE15 since I have a ton of it. I also have a ton of AR Comp. Going to test the 70RDF with these powders since they shot so well and I have 500. Bought them when they first came out and shot like shit in my AR's because they wanted to be loaded long to be accurate.

Shilen Prefit Nut Setup





 
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#79
Got out to shoot again today. Not happy with the results. While accuracy again isnt bad, still not happy with the SD's. Too much swing from shot to shot. While that doesnt look like much here on paper, that will make a big difference with accuracy at distance. RE15 was slow just like Varget. No sticky bolt but primers are flat at 24.5g. 8208XBR showed the velocity I was looking for in the 2900-3000 range. I expereinced zero pressure signs even at the highest charge weight of 24.6g. At this point I will halt anymore testing till the 75 ELD-M's get here this week. Then will test them with 8208XBR. Hopefully the poor SD's are bullet induced.


Shilen 70 RDF RE15




70 RDF 8028XBR



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#80
Its a 26" barrel...And yea thats slow for Varget and RE15. I get those numbers out of my 20" AR15... This bolt gun was built to shoot 75 ELD-M's in the 2900-3000fps range which is what almost everyone else is seeing with that combo out of their 223 26" bolt guns. As you can see, 8208XBR is producing the numbers I want to see without any pressure signs. This gun isnt for 100yd accuracy groups. Its a trainer to shoot out to 700-800. Accuracy is there (at 100yds), but corresponding SD's and velocity are not. If I shot those loads at say 600 the vertical would be terrible due to the shot to shot velocity swings.

I will test further once the 75 ELD-M's show up to see if this barrel just doesnt like the 70RDF's...
 
#81
Not many rounds through the barrel, right??? Might speed up a bit after another session or two. I call it "running in" the barrel. Could be the ES could tighten a bit by then too. Try different primers???

Just from reading around here on the Hide my conclusion so far is 70 RDF's don't shoot the best??? I'll stick to 70gr Berger vld's for the near future.

I'm glad you are doing this testing! Good read
 
#82
Yea I had terrible luck with the 70RDF's in my AR's which is why I had them on shelf taking up space. Just wanted to get some rounds through the barrel while waiting for the 75 and 80 ELD-M's and my MDT mag to arrive. Right now I have about 180rds through the barrel.
 
#83
Bartlein is sending me a blank and Josh @ Patriot Valley Arms is donating some gunsmithing time to chamber the barrel for this test. Big thanks to both of these companies for contributing to this test. We will have a true apples for apples direct comparison between the Shilen button rifled prefit/nut setup vs a shouldered single cut rifled barrel. Both are 7 twist barrels. After I finish my testing with this Shilen prefit I will be putting the shouldered Bartlein through the same tests. Same action, trigger, chassis and optic. Both these barrels will be tested at distance with the 75 ELD-M's, not just at 100yds. Plan is 300 and 500.
 
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#85
padom said:
Bartlein is sending me a blank and Josh @ Patriot Valley Arms is donating some gunsmithing time to chamber the barrel for this test. Big thanks to both of these companies for contributing to this test. We will have a true apples for apples direct comparison between the Shilen button rifled prefit/nut setup vs a shouldered single cut rifled barrel. Both are 7 twist barrels. After I finish my testing with this Shilen prefit I will be putting the shouldered Bartlein through the same tests. Same action, trigger, chassis and optic. Both these barrels will be tested at distance with the 75 ELD-M's, not just at 100yds. Plan is 300 and 500.
Click to expand...

I'd rather see a test of the bartlein/PVA as a pre fit against the Shilen pre fit.


the one negative about the shilen pre fit is I don't think the same care in machining is taken as PVA or any other good smith would.
My 260 Shilen pre fit chamber is hardly a work of art and I've seen a few others that were similarly machined.

Yea it shoots well but if I paid $250+ for a chamber job and it looked like mine I'd be royalty pissed.

My rainier ultramatch barrel has a shilen blank.
It cost more but the machining on it is gorgeous.

For 3 hunskies and some change a Shilen blank chambered, threaded and crowned with that level of detail is plenty acceptable

I'd say your test is a bit skewed from apples vs apples.
 
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#86
This test was set out to compare how Shillen prefits at half the cost compare to shouldered barrels at double the cost. There was much interest in this topic from many forum members which is why Im doing it. If you feel the prefits are not up to par then you already have your opinion and answer on this matter. If your paying a smith to make you a prefit then we are talking the same money they would charge to make you a shouldered barrel (I already looked into that with various smiths). So why wouldn't you just get a shouldered cut rifled barrel and not deal with a nut at that point? Less tools you need to invest in. Just rear entry action wrench and barrel vise. Torque the barrel on and shoot...I actually prefer and use shouldered barrels but decided to do the prefit testing for those that wanted to see it and for my own interests.

That Bartlein isnt going to shoot any different as a prefit vs shouldered either...
 
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#87
padom said:
This test was set out to compare how Shillen prefits at half the cost compare to shouldered barrels at double the cost. There was much interest in this topic from many forum members which is why Im doing it. If you feel the prefits are not up to par then you already have your opinion and answer on this matter. If your paying a smith to make you a prefit then we are talking the same money they would charge to make you a shouldered barrel (I already looked into that with various smiths). So why wouldn't you just get a shouldered cut rifled barrel and not deal with a nut at that point? Less tools you need to invest in. Just rear entry action wrench and barrel vise. Torque the barrel on and shoot...I actually prefer and use shouldered barrels but decided to do the prefit testing for those that wanted to see it and for my own interests.

That Bartlein isnt going to shoot any different as a prefit vs shouldered either...
Click to expand...
I agree with you on that point and a well machined pre fit often proves it.


I'm uncouth and like barrel nut set ups.




 
#89
padom said:
Bartlein is sending me a blank and Josh @ Patriot Valley Arms is donating some gunsmithing time to chamber the barrel for this test. Big thanks to both of these companies for contributing to this test. We will have a true apples for apples direct comparison between the Shilen button rifled prefit/nut setup vs a shouldered single cut rifled barrel. Both are 7 twist barrels. After I finish my testing with this Shilen prefit I will be putting the shouldered Bartlein through the same tests. Same action, trigger, chassis and optic. Both these barrels will be tested at distance with the 75 ELD-M's, not just at 100yds. Plan is 300 and 500.
Click to expand...

See if Criterion will jump on the bandwagon too. Mine routinely puts 5 shots from the .3s to .4s. And shot these four at 830 yards a couple of weeks back. Would love to see a direct shootout between Bartlein, Criterion, and Shilen.

John

GTNIe7.jpg
 
#93
I'd like to see the same barrel manufacture used for both pre-fit vs barrel nut chambered by the same smith. Testing a barrel nut Shilen against a PVA Bartlein pre fit will certainly skew the results.



 
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#94
I think your missing the point of this test. The point of this test is to see how $325-$400 prefits stack up against $750 shouldered barrels. A lot of guys want to see how Criterion and Shilen prefits on a TL3 with a nut compare at half the cost. Thats exactly what we are doing here. Only you can read the results and decide if a prefit from CBI or Shilen fits your needs and budget or if a shouldered barrel is what you want. The Bartlein with a nut or shoulder will both shoot exactly the same. Here's the other thing, you want a Bartlein spun up by PVA or any other smith to be used with a nut, its going to cost you the same price as a shouldered barrel. That defeats the point of this test to show guys how a prefit at half the price stacks up against a cut rifled shouldered barrel spun up by a smith.
 
#96
padom said:
Here's the other thing, you want a Bartlein spun up by PVA or any other smith to be used with a nut, its going to cost you the same price as a shouldered barrel.
Click to expand...

Having gone both routes I am interested to see the results of your test.

There is also the "intermediate option" of getting a Bartlein prefit from someone like Southern Precision Rifles. The price comes out to be between the Shilen/Criterion prefits and the Bartein shouldered barrels. They also offer the Bugnut which is a prefit but with a different barrel nut that allows you a wider choice of barrels and contours.

Currently loving my bugnut setup.
 
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#97
ive done Criterion prefits on a stiller tac30 before...you couldnt tell an accuracy difference between nut vs shouldered...i suspect youll be happy with either option, but the nut is obviously cheaper
 
#98
morganlamprecht said:
ive done Criterion prefits on a stiller tac30 before...you couldnt tell an accuracy difference between nut vs shouldered...i suspect youll be happy with either option, but the nut is obviously cheaper
Click to expand...

Accuracy at what distance? 100yds? Or did you test both at distance as well? Also what were your SD's for the CBI prefit and the shouldered barrel? Was the shouldered barrel a single cut rifled barrel?
 
#99
stevenc23 said:
Having gone both routes I am interested to see the results of your test.

There is also the "intermediate option" of getting a Bartlein prefit from someone like Southern Precision Rifles. The price comes out to be about $520 which is between the Shilen/Criterion prefits and the Bartein shouldered barrels. They also offer the Bugnut which is a prefit but with a different barrel nut that allows you a wider choice of barrels and contours.
Click to expand...

Update:
Just spoke to Greg at Southern Precision regarding his Bartlein savage prefit barrels for $520. He informed me that they are the same Bartlein barrels he uses for shouldered barrels, no difference. He said he is able to offer them at this price point because of less work headspacing and fitting the barrel to an action. With a prefit he doesnt have to do any of that. Less interaction with the client and less contours offered. He chamebers it up, puts it in a box and ships it. This is how he is able to keep his cost down.

With that info its nice to know you have the option of a cut rifled barrel in the middle price range to be used with a nut.
 
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#100
padom said:
Accuracy at what distance? 100yds? Or did you test both at distance as well? Also what were your SD's for the CBI prefit and the shouldered barrel? Was the shouldered barrel a single cut rifled barrel?
Click to expand...

i dont shoot much at 100 yds other than OCW and zero...i shot it in matches 5-1200 yds, won a prone steel match with an 18" Criterion in 308 against a handful of f class guns while i had it...i dont remember the SDs because for most sample sizes its meaningless, the ES on 10 shot strings i checked was always less than 25 fps which is about where i draw the line for acceptable...ive had various bartlein, hawk hill, kreiger, shilen, and maybe a couple others over the years...the nutted criterions shot just as well as any of them
 
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