Bighorn ( Zermatt ) TL3 vs Origin

[LeviSS]

I'm looking to build a rifle off of a Bighorn action. I'm wanting a precision rifle that has the option of switching out barrels easily to hunt western game or once I decide to try something more exotic than a 6.5 Creedmoor, and I've landed on Bighorn.

Chromoly vs stainless and the pinned lug vs integral are the main differences from what I've seen. The features of the Origin are pretty much what I'd go with in the TLR...mag cut, tang and rail.

Would I be losing anything by going with the Origin rather than the TL3 accuracy-wise or anything?

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Your wouldnt really be losing anything accuracy wise. The tl3 is just a little more refined with the built in lug. I own both and honestly love both. When I buy another iunless I find a good price on used tl3 it will be another origin.

 

[Zermatt Arms]

The Origin and TL3 are made on the same machines by the same machinists following the same quality control measures. Both products are high quality and will provide an exceptional level of accuracy. The biggest decision comes in the recoil lug and material composition. If stainless steel or an integrated recoil lug are musts for your build specs, the TL3 is the choice. If you're indifferent on those options, the Origin would be where we would point you.

Thank you - Ray

 

[Adam B]

I wish you guys would do the swept back bolt on the TL3.

 

[jakelly]

@Zermatt Arms Is there a difference between the way that the bolt raceways are cut? I’ve heard the Origin’s are broached.

 

[Thorbeast]

If you don't want to use AW mags and don't care about the pinned rail, the Origin is the easy choice. I bought one of the first TL3s, so the Origin wasn't an option at time. If I were spending the money today, I would buy the Origin and take the savings and put that towards shouldered pre-fit barrels (rather than the barrel nut setup I'm currently using).

 

[LeviSS]

If you don't want to use AW mags and don't care about the pinned rail, the Origin is the easy choice. I bought one of the first TL3s, so the Origin wasn't an option at time. If I were spending the money today, I would buy the Origin and take the savings and put that towards shouldered pre-fit barrels (rather than the barrel nut setup I'm currently using).

That's what I'm thinking, especially since I'd like to have 2 barrels.

I'm planning on a 6.5 Creedmoor first, then add either a 7mmSAUM or 300WSM for big game.

 

[Zermatt Arms]

I wish you guys would do the swept back bolt on the TL3.

It's a losing battle on the swept vs straight conversation. If we don't do all of them in both, someone will want the opposite of what you decide. Adding the swept as an option for the TL3 or a straight for the RimX and Origin straight up doubles the amount of part numbers you have to produce and manage. I wish it were a simple option to add, but the logistics become nightmare-ish when we already have a backlog.

@Zermatt Arms Is there a difference between the way that the bolt raceways are cut? I’ve heard the Origin’s are broached.

TL3 short actions are broached. TL3 long actions are wire EDM'd. Origin's are not broached or wire EDM'd. They come from a different process all together.

 

[LeviSS]

Would it be easier for me to build off of a long action and go with something like .260Rem instead of 6.5CM, then not have to worry about the COAL and feeding problems some time associated with the WSM/SAUM?

I'm still in the early stages of figuring out exactly what I want.

 

[Zermatt Arms]

Would it be easier for me to build off of a long action and go with something like .260Rem instead of 6.5CM, then not have to worry about the COAL and feeding problems some time associated with the WSM/SAUM?

I'm still in the early stages of figuring out exactly what I want.

Are you wanting to use this in any positional competition settings? I ask that because a long action may be prohibitive to success in those situations.

Typically, I'd always recommend staying with a short action and limiting COAL to the maximum available in a detachable box magazine. But if you're just looking for a casual shooter, a long action would allow for longer COAL's to be run without running into too many issues.

Thanks - Ray

 

[LeviSS]

Are you wanting to use this in any positional competition settings? I ask that because a long action may be prohibitive to success in those situations.

Typically, I'd always recommend staying with a short action and limiting COAL to the maximum available in a detachable box magazine. But if you're just looking for a casual shooter, a long action would allow for longer COAL's to be run without running into too many issues.

Thanks - Ray

I'd like to eventually. Right now, I'm tied up in USPSA and don't have the time or resources to do both, but I'd like to give PRS a try at some point within a couple years.

I'm reading mixed reviews on making the 300WSM or 7mm SAUM work in short actions due to magazine restrictions and feeding. Do you find it to be a problem or is it a non-issue for the most part?

 

[Zermatt Arms]

I'd like to eventually. Right now, I'm tied up in USPSA and don't have the time or resources to do both, but I'd like to give PRS a try at some point within a couple years.

I'm reading mixed reviews on making the 300WSM or 7mm SAUM work in short actions due to magazine restrictions and feeding. Do you find it to be a problem or is it a non-issue for the most part?

The feeding issues people run into are typically related to COAL's. With a short action and detachable box magazines, maximum COAL is advertised at 2.955" by MDT.

If you can live with a COAL inside of those restrictions, I'd advise going with a short action and limiting your cartridge length.

Thanks - Ray

 

[ManUtdManiac]

Very much looking forward to my Origin barreled action from PVA. I had one of the first gen Big Horn prior to Zermatt's buy out. Big Horns are a great product and a great company.

 

[Adam B]

It's a losing battle on the swept vs straight conversation. If we don't do all of them in both, someone will want the opposite of what you decide. Adding the swept as an option for the TL3 or a straight for the RimX and Origin straight up doubles the amount of part numbers you have to produce and manage. I wish it were a simple option to add, but the logistics become nightmare-ish when we already have a backlog.


TL3 short actions are broached. TL3 long actions are wire EDM'd. Origin's are not broached or wire EDM'd. They come from a different process all together.

It is too bad you couldn't just make a threaded on bolt handle where you could have either the swept or straight option.

 

[Zermatt Arms]

It is too bad you couldn't just make a threaded on bolt handle where you could have either the swept or straight option.

I'm not sure how that would work. In an explosive (hopefully never) situation, the rear of the bolt body can bear a LOT of force. Making that in multiple pieces would surely create a weak point(s) that could mean the difference in needing stitches or a grave digger.

It would be awesome, no doubt. But it seems like a lot of work to overcome something relatively small.

Thanks - Ray

 

[Adam B]

I was thinking like a TRG

 

[Zermatt Arms]

I was thinking like a TRG

I see what you mean. That handle wouldn't give any support to an explosive situation. That would shear so fast and the body of the bolt turns into a missile shooting back at your face.

 

[DJL2]

How much of your safety factor is built into the bolt handle versus the bolt lugs? That's an honest question - my background is mechanical engineering, but I don't design weapons (more is the pity, maybe my next life). If I were gonna clean sheet an action design (and piss off my machinists, because that's what we do), my focal point would be the lugs for sure. I know weight matters, but given my shear area can be increased substantially at the cost of mere fractions of an ounce... Like I said, I'm not in the business, I might be missing something obvious.

 

[Zermatt Arms]

How much of your safety factor is built into the bolt handle versus the bolt lugs? That's an honest question - my background is mechanical engineering, but I don't design weapons (more is the pity, maybe my next life). If I were gonna clean sheet an action design (and piss off my machinists, because that's what we do), my focal point would be the lugs for sure. I know weight matters, but given my shear area can be increased substantially at the cost of mere fractions of an ounce... Like I said, I'm not in the business, I might be missing something obvious.

You are correct, the bolt heads lugs will bear most of the force. But, in the event of a catastrophic failure, the bolt handle can mean the difference of an ER visit or the grave after the bolt lugs or head fail. We've blown up a number of receivers and have seen that to be a saving grace in some explosions. It's not 100%, but why take a chance if you don't have to?

Thanks - Ray

 

[DJL2]

I was picturing a worst case...like maybe you get sequential sheer failure of the lugs. My assumption is that it would take some seriously high pressures to initiate a failure of the lugs with all lugs properly in contact. I was wondering how thin/thick the additional margin of safety provided by the bolt handle was in such as scenario - e.g. the design is N=3 and the bolt handle .XX of that. That's what got me thinking about it. Probably not the right venue for the discussion, sorry - my curiosity got the better of me. You're gonna make me do math...gnnn...

 

[Superjet]

You can't go wrong with either action. Zermatt's customer service is top notch as well.

 

[b6graham]

Ran an origin last year for comps. Have a TL3 now to fill that role but another origin is about to be built for a long action build

Integral lug is nice. But I think the ultimate decision should be swept versus straight or aics versus AW

(for reference my TL3 was ordered as a straight aics cut)

 

[King_beardsly]

I’ve got both the origin and a TL3, ran the snot out of the origin last season for matches and range trips without a hitch. So I wanted to see if a TL3 was a world of difference, it’s a little bit different with the straight handle and slightly different extraction cam profile but overall not a mind blow difference just little tweaks/refinement that set it apart. Now if I was going to buy another action I wouldn’t have a clear cut win between them, they both are built like tanks and will handle whatever you want to do with them. I guess it come down to do you want a base 9 percent or do you want GT3 RD both will get it done just depends on what’s more important a track car for the street or a comfy performance car.

 

[OLD308]

Bought one of the first Origins, could not be happier. Picked up a used TL3 from a student getting out of the precision rifle game. Having both, I'm ordering another Origin. Nothing against the TL3, but the price difference is $400ish. Thats about 1,350 more bullets, 01 barrel blank, 02 triggers, 02 match fees, 02 8lb jugs of powder, and the list goes on. I'll never shot the difference, if any between them. Either way you go you will be happy.

 

[Mk32784]

TL3 short actions are broached. TL3 long actions are wire EDM'd. Origin's are not broached or wire EDM'd. They come from a different process all together.

Huh, curious if you speak more to how the Origin's are made? Curious to what other processes people are using to make actions.

 

[LeviSS]

@Zermatt Arms Any idea of when more Origins will hit the market? They are sold out everywhere I've looked. Thanks for all the assistance.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

One annoying difference is the barrels are different between the models.. historically there are more on shelf or used tl3 barrels, of course you can get the hunts long range recoil lug that will let you use tl3 barrels (that lug is skinny.... but I have had no issues).

If there is ever an origin 2.0 then I would hope it fixes the difference in barrels

 

[Zermatt Arms]

@Zermatt Arms Any idea of when more Origins will hit the market? They are sold out everywhere I've looked. Thanks for all the assistance.

We're shipping them as fast as we can make them. I'm sure with enough digging a person could find one today, but look for more in the usual places in 2-3 weeks.

One annoying difference is the barrels are different between the models.. historically there are more on shelf or used tl3 barrels, of course you can get the hunts long range recoil lug that will let you use tl3 barrels (that lug is skinny.... but I have had no issues).

If there is ever an origin 2.0 then I would hope it fixes the difference in barrels

The SA TL3/SR3 tenon is the only tenon that's different. It's different because when we cut for AW magazines, the amount of material removed from the lug abutment area got too small so we had to push that shoulder forward .100". With the advent of the HLR recoil lug, we don't feel the difference is worth any redesigns.

Thanks - Ray

 

[King_beardsly]

We're shipping them as fast as we can make them. I'm sure with enough digging a person could find one today, but look for more in the usual places in 2-3 weeks.


The SA TL3/SR3 tenon is the only tenon that's different. It's different because when we cut for AW magazines, the amount of material removed from the lug abutment area got too small so we had to push that shoulder forward .100". With the advent of the HLR recoil lug, we don't feel the difference is worth any redesigns.

Thanks - Ray

That’s makes perfect sense, I always wondered why there was a difference in barrel tenons between the origins and sa tl/sr

 

[DJL2]

I’ve got both the origin and a TL3, ran the snot out of the origin last season for matches and range trips without a hitch. So I wanted to see if a TL3 was a world of difference, it’s a little bit different with the straight handle and slightly different extraction cam profile but overall not a mind blow difference just little tweaks/refinement that set it apart. Now if I was going to buy another action I wouldn’t have a clear cut win between them, they both are built like tanks and will handle whatever you want to do with them. I guess it come down to do you want a base 9 percent or do you want GT3 RD both will get it done just depends on what’s more important a track car for the street or a comfy performance car.

Everyone that's not a car guy doesn't understand your auto correct borked the most iconic sports car of all time...hard. The 911 is an icon, you best fix that shit! ;-)

 

[King_beardsly]

Base corvette vs Z06 any better

 

[b6graham]

One annoying difference is the barrels are different between the models.. historically there are more on shelf or used tl3 barrels, of course you can get the hunts long range recoil lug that will let you use tl3 barrels (that lug is skinny.... but I have had no issues).

If there is ever an origin 2.0 then I would hope it fixes the difference in barrels

i have a nice shiny ring

solves this problem nicely. my old origin barrels fit the TL3