Sidearms & Scatterguns Bill Wilson on the 9MM vs the "Lord's caliber"
- Thread starter hermosabeach
- Start date
"It was a heck of a day Bill but in the end, my WILSON COMBAT AC-DELCO WAWA PEPSI-COLA HACKATHORN 9mm sure did me right!"
While I am a big fan of the 45ACP, I will readily admit that since the FBI shootout that precipitated all the investigations of ballistics and terminal performance, the 9mm (and bullet performance in general) has advanced almost as much as since people discovered rifling, and pointed Minnie balls. The 9mm no longer seems to be a poor ballistic comparison to the 45acp. I would no longer feel "under gunned" with a decent 9mm cartridge.
and considering it is normally 9 45 vs 16 9mm I think it is a good trade off.
Bad guys have friends too.
Bad guys have friends too.
I was looking at some comparisons of various 9mm rounds recently, and there were a few by Winchester that achieved 15-20 inches of penetration with expansion to around .50 caliber...that is pretty impressive performance. Like I said earlier, the technology that now allows 9mm to both penetrate deeply AND expand has come a very long way since the FBI began it's ballistic testing and recommendations.
Just remember when you hear people talking about how effective their 9mm ammo is.
Check to see if their new "wonder" 9mm +P+ ammo with all the latest advancements in powder and bullet design is fairly being compared to the same class best of breed .45 +P ammo using the same latest powder and bullets.
I've see the testing against barriers, and really hot top of the line .45 ammo generally out performs the 9mm because of the mass it carries.
A lot of guys are shooting ball or low pressure HP ammo out of 1911 style pistols for these "comparisons".
Now swap to something like a HK USP/45/MK23 or the SIG P220 or similar that shoots the really hot .45 +P well, (or if you have a mk23 .45 super), you'll find it out performs the 9mm by a measurable margin in many aspects except of course weight, capacity and size.
It is a lot easier to carry around a small 9mm concealed than a decent .45 pistol and if you want lots of rounds, well the 9mm has it, also when it comes to weight the 9mm lets you carry a lot of rounds. So it's a trade off. Same with the .40 S&W which rides right in the middle of the two, or the .357 Sig designed to do better penetration.
Another thing to remember is that more and more states are becoming less free and if you are stuck with only 10 rounds before a reload, you may want as much punch as you can pack into that mag. Then you get to even less free states where HP ammo will get you thrown in jail... now diameter becomes a lot more important when you can't have a HP and can only have 10 rounds or less.
Check to see if their new "wonder" 9mm +P+ ammo with all the latest advancements in powder and bullet design is fairly being compared to the same class best of breed .45 +P ammo using the same latest powder and bullets.
I've see the testing against barriers, and really hot top of the line .45 ammo generally out performs the 9mm because of the mass it carries.
A lot of guys are shooting ball or low pressure HP ammo out of 1911 style pistols for these "comparisons".
Now swap to something like a HK USP/45/MK23 or the SIG P220 or similar that shoots the really hot .45 +P well, (or if you have a mk23 .45 super), you'll find it out performs the 9mm by a measurable margin in many aspects except of course weight, capacity and size.
It is a lot easier to carry around a small 9mm concealed than a decent .45 pistol and if you want lots of rounds, well the 9mm has it, also when it comes to weight the 9mm lets you carry a lot of rounds. So it's a trade off. Same with the .40 S&W which rides right in the middle of the two, or the .357 Sig designed to do better penetration.
Another thing to remember is that more and more states are becoming less free and if you are stuck with only 10 rounds before a reload, you may want as much punch as you can pack into that mag. Then you get to even less free states where HP ammo will get you thrown in jail... now diameter becomes a lot more important when you can't have a HP and can only have 10 rounds or less.
Find and quantify the threshold.
Find and quantify the threshold whereby a particular 9mm bullet @ impact velocity on a trajectory through a body doesn't achieve the reaction or destruction necessary where a .45 bullet @ impact velocity would. It's a super grey zone and extremely hard to quantify and that's why this debate still goes on.
IMHO it's similar to reading on car forums about which oil to use in your engine. More specifically, I remember reading on a classic VW forum about which brand of oil (because the engines are air-cooled, no radiator, but there is an oil cooler) has the best heat transfer capacity. Guys bicker back and forth for over 100 pages and never come to a conclusion.
Step back and look at oils as heat transfer fluid, and all engine oils make up the top sliver of that spectrum. And all of them are garbage compared to water-based heat transfer fluids.
I have the opinion that semi-automatic pistol calibers are very similar in that regard. They suck at killing next to long-barrel wheel-gun magnums, and especially rifles... It's better than a rock by a long shot, but the difference between .45acp and 9mm doesn't pan out to a fart in the wind in the big scheme of things.
Find and quantify the threshold whereby a particular 9mm bullet @ impact velocity on a trajectory through a body doesn't achieve the reaction or destruction necessary where a .45 bullet @ impact velocity would. It's a super grey zone and extremely hard to quantify and that's why this debate still goes on.
IMHO it's similar to reading on car forums about which oil to use in your engine. More specifically, I remember reading on a classic VW forum about which brand of oil (because the engines are air-cooled, no radiator, but there is an oil cooler) has the best heat transfer capacity. Guys bicker back and forth for over 100 pages and never come to a conclusion.
Step back and look at oils as heat transfer fluid, and all engine oils make up the top sliver of that spectrum. And all of them are garbage compared to water-based heat transfer fluids.
I have the opinion that semi-automatic pistol calibers are very similar in that regard. They suck at killing next to long-barrel wheel-gun magnums, and especially rifles... It's better than a rock by a long shot, but the difference between .45acp and 9mm doesn't pan out to a fart in the wind in the big scheme of things.
It's also like .308 vs .223 (or 7.62x39). Yes, the bigger round is going to be very slightly more effective on humans, but it's not two or three times as effective. You would struggle to show that it's even 10% better. Meanwhile you can carry 2-3x more ammunition, and your recoil is dramatically less. 9mm has taken over for the same reason: it is precisely the weakest round that is still reliably effective against humans.
This reminds me of an old friend. He was a concrete Cooper worshiper, Gunsite alumni, type. Statements emanated like 9mm's are mouse fart loads and load em on Sunday - shoot em all week, lol. Then he got old and he'd wrecked his wrist shooting heavy 45's.
Faced with not being able to shoot his 1911 pistols he saw the light and next thing we know he's got a 9mm 1911, lol.
All along my practice ammo has been 40 S&W, 155gr lead, 3 grains of Clays, with a 12 lb spring in a 2011. Many years ago I started shooting minor, eh I don't need to win, just have fun.
When I first got into IPSC, like 35 years ago, I used a Browning High Power, definitely had my glory days at the time with it.
Faced with not being able to shoot his 1911 pistols he saw the light and next thing we know he's got a 9mm 1911, lol.
All along my practice ammo has been 40 S&W, 155gr lead, 3 grains of Clays, with a 12 lb spring in a 2011. Many years ago I started shooting minor, eh I don't need to win, just have fun.
When I first got into IPSC, like 35 years ago, I used a Browning High Power, definitely had my glory days at the time with it.
The way I see it is simple. I can carry 23 rounds of 9mm without a spare mag in a full size Glock 17 with extended mags, and easily conceal it. A 1911 is more comfortable to carry, but if I’ve learned anything in life it’s that our bodies don’t hold up like we’d like them to, and I’d like to be able to still shoot when I’m old.
Also, many of the places I’ve lived, even with spare mags, single stack 45’s are slower to shoot and I would have to reload sooner. If you’ve ever lived in an area dominated by gang activity, you know what I’m talking about. Split times can actually be a real world problem. Thankfully, I now live somewhere I can carry a wheel gun and not feel like I need more ammo. Back in Phoenix or Houston, I had as much ammo on me as practical and came too close to needing it more times than I want to think about. That’s why I live in the woods now. MM, MS13, etc don’t typically travel alone, something to bear in mind. I’m sure many here are acutely aware of all that, but it’s worth mentioning for those who haven’t had the opportunity to live in places where their presence is a fact of everyday life.
If you need the extra capacity, and need to shoot faster, 9mm wins. If you want to keep your body capable of shooting well into old age, 9mm wins again. Like many previous posters have mentioned, current projo and powder technology has made the 9mm a new animal, and the testing and results are easily available for anyone to see for themselves. DocGKR has posted quite a bit about it on LF.
Also, it’s important to think about where you’re going to be. A 45 or a 9mm is fine in society, however...
If there’s ANY chance of a fucking bear, 9mm is better than rocks, but it’s not enough, and neither is 45. That’s why I have a big bore revolver. People will just shoot or stab you, or beat you to death, or some shit like that, worst case. A bear is gonna fucking eat your ass alive, or at the very least permanently maim you, if it decides to attack you. Just felt the need to drive that point home. Don’t carry anything pleasant to shoot in bear country, I don’t care what time of year it is or if you’ve seen one before. My buddy in Oklahoma had a black bear walk through their yard, in town, just randomly. You can’t predict their behavior, where they’re going to be, or how they’ll react to your presence, and if you need to put them down, it needs to have a real chance of killing the animal or stopping its advance. Even a juvenile black bear can kill a grown ass man if it believes in itself.
Just my 2¢, of course.
Also, many of the places I’ve lived, even with spare mags, single stack 45’s are slower to shoot and I would have to reload sooner. If you’ve ever lived in an area dominated by gang activity, you know what I’m talking about. Split times can actually be a real world problem. Thankfully, I now live somewhere I can carry a wheel gun and not feel like I need more ammo. Back in Phoenix or Houston, I had as much ammo on me as practical and came too close to needing it more times than I want to think about. That’s why I live in the woods now. MM, MS13, etc don’t typically travel alone, something to bear in mind. I’m sure many here are acutely aware of all that, but it’s worth mentioning for those who haven’t had the opportunity to live in places where their presence is a fact of everyday life.
If you need the extra capacity, and need to shoot faster, 9mm wins. If you want to keep your body capable of shooting well into old age, 9mm wins again. Like many previous posters have mentioned, current projo and powder technology has made the 9mm a new animal, and the testing and results are easily available for anyone to see for themselves. DocGKR has posted quite a bit about it on LF.
Also, it’s important to think about where you’re going to be. A 45 or a 9mm is fine in society, however...
If there’s ANY chance of a fucking bear, 9mm is better than rocks, but it’s not enough, and neither is 45. That’s why I have a big bore revolver. People will just shoot or stab you, or beat you to death, or some shit like that, worst case. A bear is gonna fucking eat your ass alive, or at the very least permanently maim you, if it decides to attack you. Just felt the need to drive that point home. Don’t carry anything pleasant to shoot in bear country, I don’t care what time of year it is or if you’ve seen one before. My buddy in Oklahoma had a black bear walk through their yard, in town, just randomly. You can’t predict their behavior, where they’re going to be, or how they’ll react to your presence, and if you need to put them down, it needs to have a real chance of killing the animal or stopping its advance. Even a juvenile black bear can kill a grown ass man if it believes in itself.
Just my 2¢, of course.
Something to think about however is you may not be shooting soft skinned targets with no barriers, if you get my drift.
Lots of folks are upgrading gear and not just the usual ones.
So then you have either really good shot placement and practice, or something that can penetrate or deal blunt force pounding.
You may also be shooting at a target hiding behind light concealment and have to get through that to take care of business.
Lots of folks are upgrading gear and not just the usual ones.
So then you have either really good shot placement and practice, or something that can penetrate or deal blunt force pounding.
You may also be shooting at a target hiding behind light concealment and have to get through that to take care of business.
I am a fanatical adherent of the Church of John Moses Browning and the Lord's Caliber myself. However, that does not mean that I neglect to recognize and accept the 9mm cartridge for it's effectiveness in tactical situations and a long history of service with civilian law enforcement and the armed citizenry as well.
While the 9mm does not enjoy the bullet weight and larger cross section of the .45 ACP, the key advantage that the 9mm holds over the .45 would be it's velocity, which is blistering fast compared to the older cartridges of black powder origin. The standard service 9mm Luger round blitzes towards the target at around 1300 feet/second and handloaders routinely push the 1500 and even 1600 feet/second envelope, as well as manufacturers of magnum dangerous game and survival loads. Couple that kind of velocity with a good expanding and energy-dumping projectile and you will have performance on par with the smallbore (.32 and .36) muzzleloading percussion rifles carried by woodsmen and trappers during the first half of the 19th century. And these classic long rifles have killed many a bandit or marauding Indian from the Kentucky backwoods all the way to the Oregon Trail and put many deer, hog, and elk on the dinner tables and cook camps of the trappers.
In the end, it is all about performance and real life results. And the man who is behind the gun...
While the 9mm does not enjoy the bullet weight and larger cross section of the .45 ACP, the key advantage that the 9mm holds over the .45 would be it's velocity, which is blistering fast compared to the older cartridges of black powder origin. The standard service 9mm Luger round blitzes towards the target at around 1300 feet/second and handloaders routinely push the 1500 and even 1600 feet/second envelope, as well as manufacturers of magnum dangerous game and survival loads. Couple that kind of velocity with a good expanding and energy-dumping projectile and you will have performance on par with the smallbore (.32 and .36) muzzleloading percussion rifles carried by woodsmen and trappers during the first half of the 19th century. And these classic long rifles have killed many a bandit or marauding Indian from the Kentucky backwoods all the way to the Oregon Trail and put many deer, hog, and elk on the dinner tables and cook camps of the trappers.
In the end, it is all about performance and real life results. And the man who is behind the gun...
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I know, right? Everyone knows the 10mm is the Lord's caliber.
Or how about 9x25!
Wrist wrecker, and on the slow side, but for bear protection, it'd do. Haven't had a 460R but have had a Delta Elite and G20. If I lived in Grizzly country I'd kept one.
Had a Contender in 358WIN and 45-70, novel but I enjoyed the 17K hornet barrel much more!
I took it a step down since I'm just plinking these days. One of the funnest pistols I shoot is a G42! We have steel out to 135Y and I can hit them all with that smally. One time in a IDPA match I got 4th with it and stayed -0 so I find it very shooter friendly.
Yeah, I want to have fun not ruin my wrist joint, but if someone said, hey shoot my 500S&W or DE 500AE I'd take a few pops.
The 9mm with modern JHPs is more than good enough. There are a whole lot of Internet morons who need to watch this video.
I am an old fart, and I switched to 9mm for the same reasons as in the video. I have arthritis, and I also have trigger finger, not to mention messed up wrists, and a POS right elbow. I have owned a shit load of 45 ACP 1911 pistols, as well as a few safe action polymer 45 ACPs. I no longer own any handgun larger than 9mm. In fact, now that I can't even see the darned sights, I have gone to an MPX 9mm carbine for home defense and competition.
Makes sense. FN PS90 loaded with SS198LF also has the qualities you mention, and its standard mag gives you 50 shots at around 2400 fps. Plus it's only 27 inches long, so maybe more maneuverable indoors. Expensive and super ugly, though.
I think it depends alot on the platform. I have a full size M&P in 9mm which was an easy choice for me since it holds 18 rounds vs 11 rounds of .45 ACP, but when I bought my shield I went with the .45 since it's a much smaller difference at 8 rounds vs 9 rounds of 9mm. Of course I don't carry either very often since I got a LCP II. I used to carry maybe 70% of the time, now it's 100%. I'm admittedly lazy and I like being able to just drop it in my pocket and go. The shield gets carried if I'm wearing heavier clothes (not often in East texas) and the full size stays in the nightstand.
While I wouldn't feel undergunned with a Glock 19 and it's 15+1 capacity, I still lean toward a similar sized pistol with a 13+1 capacity of 45 acp.
I think W54/XM-38 made some really good points about comparing top performing 9mm with top performing 45 ammo. Make the comparison apples to apples as much as possible.
I think W54/XM-38 made some really good points about comparing top performing 9mm with top performing 45 ammo. Make the comparison apples to apples as much as possible.
Holding my phone and swiping pages and texting all day has given me more problems in my hand and wrist than .40, .45, or .357 put together. And that's the story I'm sticking to when I have to transition more and more to 9mm as I get older.
I think W54/XM-388 said it pretty well above. I'm in California. And I can still (for the time being anyway) shoot .40 and .45 not noticeably worse than 9mm. And will make the most of what I can legally put in a magazine for as long as I'm able. But when I'm no longer able I'm not going to blaspheme .45. It's phone hand. The phone did it. Final answer.
I think W54/XM-388 said it pretty well above. I'm in California. And I can still (for the time being anyway) shoot .40 and .45 not noticeably worse than 9mm. And will make the most of what I can legally put in a magazine for as long as I'm able. But when I'm no longer able I'm not going to blaspheme .45. It's phone hand. The phone did it. Final answer.
Get yourself a CZ P10C OR or P10F OR (OR = optics ready) and mount the reflex sight of your choice.
Unless you get a decent weight bullet moving at 2000FPS++ almost all pistol rounds perform about the same. Basically nothing shy of 9x25 Dillon will do that, and even that is pushing it from anything remotely concealable.
I’ve got one. It’s bigger and heavier than a full-size 9 mm with a 24 round magazine. And there’s always recoil: no matter how well you shoot a .45, you’re going to be able to get back on target faster with a 9 mm.
I still love my 1911 though.
Yep, agreed. I only shoot my 45 suppressed anyways. Every other time i shoot my 9mm's
I viewed the video. I offer the following criticism of it.
In reality, they did not fault the .45 ACP as a defense gun.
They faulted shooting too much, getting old.
No comparison was made regarding effectiveness of caliber.
I have done a good bit of shooting with both calibers on living things. There is simply no comparison in killing effectiveness.
Current training overemphasizes magazine capacity and firing rounds. Accuracy and power kill. You can’t miss fast enough to win.
Old Bill realizes that selling 1911’s is getting tough unless a lot of folks change caliber.
I like my Wilson’s and shoot both of them often. I would not select a 1911 in 9mm or any caliber other than .45 ACP.
This video is a sales pitch for Wilson’s 1911 9mm.
If you want to compare calibers only, go shoot some hogs ONE SHOT center mass with both and see what you get.
In reality, they did not fault the .45 ACP as a defense gun.
They faulted shooting too much, getting old.
No comparison was made regarding effectiveness of caliber.
I have done a good bit of shooting with both calibers on living things. There is simply no comparison in killing effectiveness.
Current training overemphasizes magazine capacity and firing rounds. Accuracy and power kill. You can’t miss fast enough to win.
Old Bill realizes that selling 1911’s is getting tough unless a lot of folks change caliber.
I like my Wilson’s and shoot both of them often. I would not select a 1911 in 9mm or any caliber other than .45 ACP.
This video is a sales pitch for Wilson’s 1911 9mm.
If you want to compare calibers only, go shoot some hogs ONE SHOT center mass with both and see what you get.
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85% of all people shot with a handgun in the United States survive.
I'm working a case right now where a guy was shot once with a .22 LR, three surgeries later and I still haven't been able to talk to him.
When you look at it objectively, pistol rounds are, in general, piss poor manstoppers, but there are exceptions.
You have a very similar energy profile between a 9mm and a .45, they both achieve this differently, the 9mm through velocity, the .45 through mass.
I carry a 9mm, I used to carry a 1911. I traded my 8+1 for a 21+1 with the overall weight being very similar.
Before that, I carried a .40, which, IMHO is the best handgun cartridge in a semi-auto for dispatching two legged vermin.
However, it is a high intensity cartridge stuffed into a 9mm sized pistol. It batters the frame and the shooter. I don't shoot handguns as much as I used to, and my marksmanship suffered.
I can shoot both the 9 and .45 better than I can shoot the .40.
Forensically speaking, if they don't recover the bullet, they can not tell the difference between the wound channel of a .380, 9, .40, .45 or .357
I'm working a case right now where a guy was shot once with a .22 LR, three surgeries later and I still haven't been able to talk to him.
When you look at it objectively, pistol rounds are, in general, piss poor manstoppers, but there are exceptions.
You have a very similar energy profile between a 9mm and a .45, they both achieve this differently, the 9mm through velocity, the .45 through mass.
I carry a 9mm, I used to carry a 1911. I traded my 8+1 for a 21+1 with the overall weight being very similar.
Before that, I carried a .40, which, IMHO is the best handgun cartridge in a semi-auto for dispatching two legged vermin.
However, it is a high intensity cartridge stuffed into a 9mm sized pistol. It batters the frame and the shooter. I don't shoot handguns as much as I used to, and my marksmanship suffered.
I can shoot both the 9 and .45 better than I can shoot the .40.
Forensically speaking, if they don't recover the bullet, they can not tell the difference between the wound channel of a .380, 9, .40, .45 or .357
This times 1000! I hunt hogs regularly and these beast amaze me every time. I always carry a pistol along with my POF 308 and Ive convinced myself that the pistol is actually so I can finish myself off if I ever get overtaken. Ive never seen anything else will the willpower to keep going than hogs.
God forbid I have to draw on another human, but only hits count so train with every gun you have.
Damn thats huge! If you didnt use the 9mm, did you use the crowbar it looks like your holding? LMAO
Comparisons to the 45ACP aside, I'm looking for an effective factory 9mm load for my ladies and I to use for personal defense. My primary concerns are retrieved bullet expansion diameter and retained weight.
S&W M&P 9 Shield 3.10" barrel (ladies' concealed carry), and Ruger American Pistol 9 Pro 4.20" barrel (mine, open carry).
Current ammo is Blaser 124gr FMJ for training, and Federal Premium Personal Defense 9mm 124gr HST Jacketed Hollow Point for carry.
I'm keeping it down to 124gr to help with recoil/recovery.
Am I doing it right, or is there something significantly better I need to look into?
Also, due to joint issues, I got a S&W M&P 380 Bodyguard for my Wife; she had real issues racking the Shield.
Ammo for it consists of Sig Sauer Elite Performance 380ACP 90gr V-Crown JHP for carry, and Blaser Brass 380ACP 95gr FMJ for training.
Aside from the lighter power chambering, is there any advice regarding the 380's ammo?
Greg
S&W M&P 9 Shield 3.10" barrel (ladies' concealed carry), and Ruger American Pistol 9 Pro 4.20" barrel (mine, open carry).
Current ammo is Blaser 124gr FMJ for training, and Federal Premium Personal Defense 9mm 124gr HST Jacketed Hollow Point for carry.
I'm keeping it down to 124gr to help with recoil/recovery.
Am I doing it right, or is there something significantly better I need to look into?
Also, due to joint issues, I got a S&W M&P 380 Bodyguard for my Wife; she had real issues racking the Shield.
Ammo for it consists of Sig Sauer Elite Performance 380ACP 90gr V-Crown JHP for carry, and Blaser Brass 380ACP 95gr FMJ for training.
Aside from the lighter power chambering, is there any advice regarding the 380's ammo?
Greg
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I would be interested to know best 9mm for punching nicely thru stuff. I have a 5” 1911 in 9 and a Glock 48.
Comparing a pig to humans when it comes to terminal ballistics is just stupid. This place can do better.
The true church is the Church of Daniel B Wesson and the Lord's Caliber is 357 Magnum. The Apostle is Bill Jordan, who spread lead joy throughout the Desert Southwest as a Border Patrolman.
Lot of pig based medical research is done for human benefit. Meds, heart valves etc.
The US Army used condemned mules for rifle cartridge testing long ago.
Makes more sense than ballistic gelatin.
To each his own.
The US Army used condemned mules for rifle cartridge testing long ago.
Makes more sense than ballistic gelatin.
To each his own.
Pigs are not used for wound ballistics research, I wonder why.
Whatever the Army did when it had mules is completely irrelevant today. Science and knowledge advance and those who choose to ignore that advance are as irrelevant as the outdated knowledge they cite or cling to.
Yes, to each their own. Which is why I listen to professionals in the medical field of wound ballistics and not to amateurs who have zero professional knowledge or experience in the field.
One of the problems with egalitarianism is that too many people think their "knowledge" in a field is equivalent to those who are better educated, more experienced, actually credentialed, and professionally respected and cited in that particular field.
As with real estate, when it comes to handgun caliber its all about: location, location, location.
I’ve had the opportunity to view a number of gel shoots. I also have looked at several gel shoot “test” results.
At the end of the research, I concluded there was no magic bullet that did everything you needed to do every time. Bullets did different things on different testing days. I’ve seen quality loads have a “bad day”.
The gel shoots aren’t really tests since the sample size is small (usually one shot per load per barrier). Also you are depending on the gel chef to have made a gel that is consistent with last tests. Temperature of the gel plays a role in penetration numbers.
The design of the projectile used played a big role as well, as I saw some calibers bigger than 9mm overexpand and penetrate less as a result.
At the end of the research, I concluded there was no magic bullet that did everything you needed to do every time. Bullets did different things on different testing days. I’ve seen quality loads have a “bad day”.
The gel shoots aren’t really tests since the sample size is small (usually one shot per load per barrier). Also you are depending on the gel chef to have made a gel that is consistent with last tests. Temperature of the gel plays a role in penetration numbers.
The design of the projectile used played a big role as well, as I saw some calibers bigger than 9mm overexpand and penetrate less as a result.
Could you please post your credentials regarding medical degrees and education?
Could you also post your actual experience in wound ballistics?
Could you please post numbers of animals killed, caliber post mort work etc?
Could you please explain why and how one 200# mammal significantly differs from another in regard to ballistic wound reactions?
Are you serious about why animals are not utilized in ballistic wound research by .gov?
Seriously???
Please start with the education part, surgical experience, wound recovery, etc.
I don't claim to be the expert, so your misdirection attempt is a failure from the get go.
I do trust what this guy says: https://cap.stanford.edu/profiles/f...erprofile&profileversion=full&profileId=48143
In particular:
Dr Martin Fackler would be another
Who's your recognized expert in the field of wound ballistics?
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