Bipod hop left (yes this tired old shit)

[callen3615]

Alright fellas,

I am at my wit's end. I have been racking my brain, scouring the internet and practicing like crazy to fix my poor recoil management. I have high hopes to join a 1000yd benchrest club next year, I am building a custom rifle in the meantime. I wanted to improve my shooting this year in preparation for competition. I am shooting a 308win 700 remington varmint 26" bedded in a B&C M40 stock with cheek riser stock pack, scope is a Vortex HS-T 4-16. I have never squeezed more than 1 MOA out of this gun, reloads, OCW tests, OAL experimentation, no luck. I have come to believe my shooting form could be holding me back. Some days I will shoot a 0.6 MOA 3 shot group, but I will also have 1.5 MOA groups thrown in there too, and were talking 3 shot groups... It seems like I struggle with recoil management, bipod jumps left, I lose my sight picture immediately. I have tried everything I can think of/find on the internet. Body alignment, spine straight, experiment with shoulder pocket, elbows perpendicular, shoulders even and relaxed. Slightly load bipod (harris), slightly pull grip straight back into shoulder pocket and pull straight back on trigger. I have hyper focused on NPA, get behind rifle, tediously dry fire, relax body, dry fire, relax shoulders, core, all the way down my body, then break shot at bottom of breathing cycle with 0 perceived muscle tension. I did discover I may struggle with "sympathetic squeeze" of my left shoulder. I have been working with the 22 trainer to alleviate that. I can noticeably tell when my shoulders are tight vs when they are relaxed shooting the 22. But I can't seem to move it over to the 308.


Any help would be greatly appreciated


The attached pics are my 22 savage at 70 yards off the ground. I seem to have issues with vertical stringing with my shoulder tense, If I focus on releasing tension my groups tightened up significantly.

 

[bogeybrown]

Man, I'll give you mad credit for not only all the work you've done but also for the detail of your post. Next step may be having someone video your shooting. Someone may pick up an "error" you're not aware of.
For me personally I was doing everything "right" based on the theoretical checklist, but was too low behind the rifle. I made the mistake of thinking that the lower my prone position was, the more stable my position. I was actually shooting from my collar bone vs my shoulder pocket. Once I raised my upper body a bit my recoil management settled in and the bipod hop "magically" disappeared.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Best thing is to work with a professional or as Bogey said, have someone video you shooting and post it up here and we can all help.


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[BlackFenix]

If you are shooting off of concrete a lot, I have found that putting the bipod on a non-slip doormat has done wonders.

 

[gigamortis]

I had a lot of hop when I used a Harris. Breaking a shot with the Harris always resulted in the right leg lifting completely off the deck due to barrel twist torque.

I switched to an LRA Light Tactical bipod and have been amazed at how little movement occurs after breaking a shot. The stance is wide enough to where the barrel sits within the triangle of the legs instead of on top of it like most other bipods. All barrel twist torque reaction stays inside the triangle and is well contained. On steel at 600 yards, I can watch my hits in real time through the scope with the LRA.

Another technique I pay attention to is to get the rear bag settled down pretty firm. I'm usually using my cheek/jaw pressure to press down on the stock to achieve final reticle alignment on target. It helps me a lot with consistent follow through.

 

[callen3615]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help.

I wish I had time for professional help. Maybe one day I will find the time to seek it out. I will add that I am shooting off a hard wooden surface as well. I dont notice it so bad off the bench, bipod usually slides back, its just off prone when I get the hop.

I have been meaning to get an atlas style bipod for quite some time, maybe this is the tipping point.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help.

I wish I had time for professional help. Maybe one day I will find the time to seek it out. I will add that I am shooting off a hard wooden surface as well. I dont notice it so bad off the bench, bipod usually slides back, its just off prone when I get the hop.

I have been meaning to get an atlas style bipod for quite some time, maybe this is the tipping point.

Typically when you're iPod hops and moves left (right handed shooter) it is one of two things. Either you're not strait behind the rifle, or you're not loading the bipod. If you can have someone take a quick cell phone vid of you while you're shooting or if you can somehow film yourself then I'm sure we could figure this out.


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[callen3615]

Typically when you're iPod hops and moves left (right handed shooter) it is one of two things. Either you're not strait behind the rifle, or you're not loading the bipod. If you can have someone take a quick cell phone vid of you while you're shooting or if you can somehow film yourself then I'm sure we could figure this out.


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I think the issue is loading, Its so difficult off a wooden bench to load the harris without it scooting forward. I have been barely loading it, or actually pulling the grip towards my shoulder with the firing hand.

I took some shots after work today from the bench. I tried to load the bipod as much as I could and not scoot the gun forward/off target. After some frustration I found a happy balance. Once I hyper focused on the amount of forward pressure on the stock, and tried to make it the same every time I put 4 rounds in the same hole, but it was tedious. The bipod still hopped/slid back a bit. I may try and find a better bipod for loading.

 

[The Angler]

Maybe a muzzle break would help; if you already have one, maybe check the timing?



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[bogeybrown]

Maybe a muzzle break would help; if you already have one, maybe check the timing?



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Whereas I agree that a brake could "help", it's a crutch rather than a solution. With PRS and some of the trends, folks are braking rifles for no reason and actually amplifying problems. Most flinch is based on sound vs true recoil impulse, so making your rifle louder isn't helping.

IIRC, Lowlight and Jacob from Rifles Only have both deponstrated shooting a Harris off of concrete with no "ledge" to load against and demonstrated that once we get our position figured out, it's totally doable. I definitely find an Atlas easier to load, but folks have shot Harris off of everything for decades before we had options.

Im still happily learning from my fuckups, but DarkSideSix and a few others are definitely good enough to watch a vid of you shooting and offer some advice.

You're welcome Darkside, nothing like putting you on the spot. Semper Fi buddy.
​​​​​​,

 

[callen3615]

Thanks guys, I'll try and get a video up soon

 

[Darkside-Six]

Harris' are good bipod but they are a bit stiff and sometimes can creat problems for people. Atlas may be a really good option to consider. They tend to have a bit more give to them and are easier to load imo. But that's a temp fix as well and you still need to work on the technique. Here's a great video. https://youtu.be/sqFH0A7Py1Q


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[callen3615]

Harris' are good bipod but they are a bit stiff and sometimes can creat problems for people. Atlas may be a really good option to consider. They tend to have a bit more give to them and are easier to load imo. But that's a temp fix as well and you still need to work on the technique. Here's a great video. https://youtu.be/sqFH0A7Py1Q


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Yep seen that, blows my mind.

 

[bogeybrown]

Yeah, pretty sure that's the vid I was remembering. Can anyone recall a good video of guys intentionally inducing hop and pointing out what they're doing wrong to create the error? As with most things, when you see shit done right it looks easy, but when things go wrong it can be a lot harder for us to figure out why.

 

[callen3615]

Yeah, pretty sure that's the vid I was remembering. Can anyone recall a good video of guys intentionally inducing hop and pointing out what they're doing wrong to create the error? As with most things, when you see shit done right it looks easy, but when things go wrong it can be a lot harder for us to figure out why.

Exactly, Id like to see that if anyone has a vid like that.

 

[BearNaked]

Yeah, pretty sure that's the vid I was remembering. Can anyone recall a good video of guys intentionally inducing hop and pointing out what they're doing wrong to create the error? As with most things, when you see shit done right it looks easy, but when things go wrong it can be a lot harder for us to figure out why.

I would be interested to see that. I have videos of me shooting but I'm a large man so it just looks like a dough boy with a barrel sticking out of my chest. Same issue and frustrations.


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[callen3615]

Ok, shot 3 groups this afternoon and filmed it. I used my chronograph and tripod as an iphone holder. I could post the entire 7 minute video but it was essentially me laying still and the gun jumping ever so slightly left during recoil. It looks like my spine is off just a hair, and my left elbow could come back just a hair as well.
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[Darkside-Six]

Ok, shot 3 groups this afternoon and filmed it. I used my chronograph and tripod as an iphone holder. I could post the entire 7 minute video but it was essentially me laying still and the gun jumping ever so slightly left during recoil. It looks like my spine is off just a hair, and my left elbow could come back just a hair as well.
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Can't see the pic or whatever you posted but that could do it. An easy way to correct that and make sure you're strait is to take a roll of duck tape and tape a strait line down you're firing lane or on the floor of your basement. Then make an intersecting line through it and make sure they are both perpendicular to each other. Then lay your gun down along the center of the line. Get down strait behind your rifle, make sure both your Alvie's and shoulders are along the other line. It may feel unnatural at first but eventually you will get use to it.


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[callen3615]

Here is how my groups looked. The first 2 groups were frustrating, bipod jumped left pretty bad. Once I got up I looked at the film and decided to pull my left elbow back and consciously line my body more left than before. I think also, I have learned a bad habit by not having an adjustable comb combined with too high of a scope mount, I have to float my head sometimes to keep a sight picture. I noticed today that while relaxing I would lose sight picture out the bottom of the scope. So I kept having to reset and start my cheek weld on a higher point of my jawline. In effort to keep my sight picture I'm afraid I have been giving the gun a place to go during recoil, up. You can tell by the vertical stringing in the bottom two groups the buttstock was inconsistently moving during recoil. I guess it doesn't matter how much you load the bipod, if you lift your head off the gun even minutely, the gun is going to jump.

My final group (dialed up), I focused on pulling my left elbow back and not lifting my head. The bipod still jumped, not as bad. And I didnt immediately lose my sight picture like I normally do. The results aren't stellar, but show promise.

 

[callen3615]

This was at 65 yards off the ground BTW.

 

[BearNaked]

Look at the Matthews cheek riser. I have it on my old stock and it works kick ass. It really helped me on getting a sight picture.

I looked at a video of my last match and it's clear how bad the front of the gun jumps.

Good luck sir on trying to figure out this dilemma


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[callen3615]

You too man. Thanks for the help

 

[Darkside-Six]

just from looking at your picture I can tell you are not inline with your rifle. try drawing it out on the floor with tape like I suggested in my earlier post. you want the centerline of your rifle to come strait through your right shoulder and right hip and you also want to widen your legs out a bit.

 

[callen3615]

I will give it a shot. Thanks

 

[bogeybrown]

It's tough to tell from that angle, but you may be a little low in your prone as I referred to earlier. Try raising the bipod a notch or two. Then raise up on your elbows into a higher prone. It should actually give you a better awareness of your body position. The butt should be sitting pretty flat into your shoulder pocket vs just the heel or toe of the butt pad making contact.

You may may be doing that already, but from the pic you look a bit low.

 

[Holliday]

I wrestled with hop on my 30-06 Rem 700 hunting rifle. At 12lbs it's relatively light and when hunting a "perfect shooting position" is not always going to happen. My loads are also at the top of the pressure / fps limit.

Then I ordered a TBAC suppressor and installed one of their QD mount brakes. What a difference. In the future if I'm experiencing a "hop" or recoil management issue I won't hesitate to install a brake.

I have alwayed welcomed recoil, like a stiff shot of whiskey but of course I don't shoot whiskey while trying to make ultra accurate long range shots......

 

[Mtndog05]

I am having the same issues.... Thank you for the post and all the great advise. Keep.ot coming.

 

[DRandi]

Some neoprene foam cut into strips. Then wrapped with a ace bandage to secure and make a cheek rest works nicely to build up the stock comb. Fairly cheap to do.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00K...pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=neoprene+foam

 

[callen3615]

Ok guys, I improved the cheek riser. Got back on the ground shortly after work today and fired 3, 3 shot groups. I focused on my body alignment, relaxing shoulders, consistent, firm pressure on the rear bag, consistent cheek weld pressure and loading the bipod. The results were noticeable. Bipod didnt jump at all, stayed loaded the entire time I shot. Groups were consistent, only had 1 flier, all groups were sub 3/4 MOA, 1 was sub 1/2 MOA, and the best was close to 1/4 moa. I know, I know, 3 shot groups,still pretty good for a stock remington barrel. I want to thank all who replied, I really appreciate the help. Thanks for helping cure something thats plagued me for years. Heres to better shooting in the future!

 

[Darkside-Six]

Ok guys, I improved the cheek riser. Got back on the ground shortly after work today and fired 3, 3 shot groups. I focused on my body alignment, relaxing shoulders, consistent, firm pressure on the rear bag, consistent cheek weld pressure and loading the bipod. The results were noticeable. Bipod didnt jump at all, stayed loaded the entire time I shot. Groups were consistent, only had 1 flier, all groups were sub 3/4 MOA, 1 was sub 1/2 MOA, and the best was close to 1/4 moa. I know, I know, 3 shot groups,still pretty good for a stock remington barrel. I want to thank all who replied, I really appreciate the help. Thanks for helping cure something thats plagued me for years. Heres to better shooting in the future!

Good to hear. Hear is a couple suggestions now. First, dry fire, dry fire, dry fire......get your body and muscle memory use to the change and proper alignment. Next, work on build and break drills instead of shooting groups. Place a couple of 1" dots at 100yds and place your ammo a few feet behind your rifle. Pick up one round and drop in behind your rifle making sure you have the proper alignment. fire at one of the dots and then get up, go pick up another round and repeat. You can fire 1 or 2 rounds at each dot, whichever you prefer. This is a good drill to practice dropping into a good position every time.

 

[callen3615]

Sounds like an awesome drill. Thanks

 

[bogeybrown]

Darkside-Six, that's some good shit right there. I've broken position and laid next to the rifle, then gotten back on it, but haven't done it that way. Seems like a MUCH better way to force yourself to focus on how you address the rifle each time. And perfectly suited to dots vs groups, which is something I'm hoping to focus on more.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Darkside-Six, that's some good shit right there. I've broken position and laid next to the rifle, then gotten back on it, but haven't done it that way. Seems like a MUCH better way to force yourself to focus on how you address the rifle each time. And perfectly suited to dots vs groups, which is something I'm hoping to focus on more.

yeah bro, so many people get caught up in shooting groups. I focus on first round hits and this is a great drill for that. it also helps build a strong position, obviously. I know guys that only shoot groups like this as well, they don't stay behind the gun after every shot.

 

[bogeybrown]

yeah bro, so many people get caught up in shooting groups. I focus on first round hits and this is a great drill for that. it also helps build a strong position, obviously. I know guys that only shoot groups like this as well, they don't stay behind the gun after every shot.

Agreed. Groups have their place, but I've tried not to get too hung up on them.

 

[Roslyn]

just from looking at your picture I can tell you are not inline with your rifle. try drawing it out on the floor with tape like I suggested in my earlier post. you want the centerline of your rifle to come strait through your right shoulder and right hip and you also want to widen your legs out a bit.

+1 on this. Your muzzle could easily be 3-4 inches to the right if everything else stayed the same in your position. The other thing you might consider is moving your left elbow slightly forward, by which I mean an inch, not a huge move, which will tend to reinforce the stock settling into the shoulder pocket.