Bipod prone - what has helped you?

[Gil P.]

I'm having the hardest time shooting off my Harris bipod prone, especially on concrete. My groups shrink significantly when I take the bipod off and put a bag up front. I feel that my fundamentals are good. However, the rifle always points to the left after I've fired a round. I've tried adjusting my body, but it always happens. Too much face pressure, lack of follow through, not enough pressure on the grip?

What has helped you in the past?

 

[Kopfjager1]

Pull the gun into your shoulder, versus pushing into it. If the Harris bipods are notched, and you shoot with them collapsed, put the legs in the 1st notch. Adding too much pressure can force your rifle to cant, which will put the rifle at an angle in your shoulder pocket and will only increase the jump. Follow through is a big one, you can significantly disrupt your rifles precision with improper follow through. A right handed shooter will always have the tendency for their rifle to move left while shooting.

Watch some of Lowlights videos on YouTube about bipod hop, rifle can't, etc.

 

[squib]

The biggest improvement I found is finding the contact pressure the rifle likes. Some rifles like to be almost "free recoiled" and some like a gentle "hug." All depends on the caliber/rifle weight. Most magnum calibers like to torque.

 

[Gil P.]

Kopfjaeger Thank you, I've watched all the videos a few times. I'll watch them again. I think I might be pulling it too hard into my shoulder. That will be something I'll try.

 

[Lowlight]

With a Harris a little goes a long way... there is no slack to take up like with an Atlas, so you don't "push" into it.

the load comes from your core, and really you are just stacking your weight behind the rifle. However that said, it still has to come back into the shoulder.

How much back into the shoulder depends on the rifle, we generally say, it's pressure equal to the weight of the rifle. If you have a 15LBS rifle you bring 15LBS back into the shoulder.

 

[Gil P.]

Lowlight Got it, I have noticed that. What do you see when shooting bipod prone off concrete? How much does the reticle move off target for you? I've been trying to get it right for years. I think I need formal instruction.

 

[Lowlight]

On concrete I am within a .5 mil of the target, it really depends on the rifle, but worst case is about .5 mil off or 2"

 

[SubOptimal]

I used to shoot a lot of trap. By a lot I mean 25000 rounds a year. A shotgun is a little different than a rifle but really not very much. Standing is also a bit different than seated at a bench but also not very much. Here is the similarity I have discovered, some from reading here and some from my own experience and experiments.
The less muscle you use in mounting the gun, the less strain you have to contend with while executing the shot. Standing, you have to, naturally, support the gun, but if the gun fits you properly and you mounted it properly, that is no more than a couple of pounds of upward pressure on the fore end. The back half of the gun will be locked into your body and require no extra muscle to support. When seated at a bench, the need to support the front of the rifle is supplied by the bipod and the left hand (for a right handed shooter) is free to set the rear bag for total support of the rifle's weight. The butt of the stock should really not need very much pressure into the shoulder, again, if the gun fits you. You can pull it into the shoulder pocket if you wish but it should stay there all on its own with no need to tense your hand to haul back on the grip once the gun is mounted.
Loading the bipod is a very individual thing. I find that minimum loading is the best and I seek just enough forward push (bad analogy) that I can notice it and maintain it without having to tense anything against the load.
In all cases, bone on bone is the key. When I am shooting my best, the only muscles under tension are those necessary to squeeze the trigger. BTW, there are 21 muscles involved in a trigger squeeze and that is quite enough to learn how to control.

 

[strikeeagle1]

Anyone interested in knowing more about the anatomy of a trigger pull or involved in training others in firearms should continue reading below.

My intent is not to hijack this thread however only to correct the statement that there are "21 muscles involved in a trigger squeeze". This is how disinformation is promulgated via internet forums. Unfortunately, there is no short explanation.

There are only a total of 16 muscles within the human hand proper.

All 9 of your hand flexor tendons are controlled by 3 separate muscles in the forearm NOT contained within the hand. In the forearm, one muscle controls all the superficial finger tendons, one muscle controls all the deep finger tendons with thumb flexion independently controlled by its own muscle.

The index finger flexion required to pull a trigger is controlled by a single superficial tendon plus a single deep tendon to that finger, powered by their two separate respective muscles in the forearm.

Depending on whether one is shooting a rifle with a pistol style grip or a conventional stock the thumb may or may not be involved in the trigger pull process at all.


So, if you are just resting your hand alongside the rifle and squeezing the trigger, only 2 muscles are used. If you are using a pistol grip method, the thumb may be involved in wrapping about the grip, so only 3 muscles used.

The "best" manner to position your hand / fingers to control the trigger is often rabidly debated. Importantly however, each individual has similar hand anatomy, but not identical hand anatomy and its nerve control which results in some tasking their appearance of the trigger pull process to be an unconventional manner, however it still gets their trigger pull executed.

What works well for you may not even be anatomically possible to work well for your buddy.

A relevant illustration is a well-known medical condition (Linburg-Comstock Anomaly) wherein your flexor tendons of the fingers have abnormal cross-over connections to adjacent finger flexor tendons that prohibit the independent movement and fidelity of fingers important to musicians (string instruments and piano) and is relevant to those shooting firearms, particularly pistols, as the condition prohibits squeezing the pistol grip without activating the trigger finger ! This condition can be congenital or acquired e.g. repetitive finger practice (musician / shooter) induces inflammation that results in scarring between tendons of the fingers. Typical medical studies quote the prevalence as 10-15 % in the public-at-large.

Cited below is a 2007 European medical study of armed security staff that had the condition present in 37 % of 108 staff ! As the title "Limburg-Comstock Anomaly: Seems to Be Harmless but May Be Fatal" suggests the condition can be potentially fatal to themselves or those around them, being unaware that the condition affects them.




This anatomical variation is just as important to understand for the serious firearm trainer as the "Involuntary Muscle Contractions and the Unintentional Discharge of a Firearm" discussed here, particularly @ post # 15 where a reference article is cited.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...e-referring-to

 

[-Time-]

I shoot prone off of a concrete slab with a Harris bipod on my 300wm.

Lowlight's advice is what has helped me the most, along with 8541 tactical's video on the prone position.

I:
get square behind the rifle, it really makes a huge deal.

Then I load the bipod with my torso, generally how 8541 tac does, by angling the rifle down, meeting the stock, and dropping my torso. Not chest on the ground mind you, but a comfortable position with my forearm a little under me, reaching to the rear bag. It's not my whole body weight into the rifle, just enough to keep the rifle up against me, without the Harris rolling forward.

finally i pull back on the grip, the rifle doesn't move, because it's already my shoulder is already as snug as it'll get since I have the bipod loaded.

I can kind of tell if my bipod load is good from this, as if I put too much torso pressure the bipod will roll forward, and if it's too little when I pull back I can feel the rifle move towards me.

if you haven't watched the recoil management videos on here, I highly recommend. Well worth the $15. The 8541 tac video comes up if you google "8541 tactical prone" it's only like 3:41 seconds long. Can't figure out how to link sorry.

 

[Gil P.]

Thank you all. I'll report back once I get more shooting done this week.

 

[SubOptimal]

I won't argue the count as Strikeagle describes it. I'm familiar with the anatomical differences between the muscles of the hand and the 3 primary muscles in the forearam that control finger flexor tendons. 30 years of playing violin gives me some insight into this as well. The interactions are very involved and very different from person to person as pointed out. Fact is, you have to train to learn to isolate specific fingers, in particular when fingers of the same hand are involved and one is being flexed while the complementary finger is being extended. This often involves use of the muscles in the hand to resist the flexor muscles in the forearm, it isn't easy but can be taught and practiced. Hence my suggestion about the use of 21 muscles (19 as corrected). I switched to release triggers on my shotguns due to some of these issues as pointed out. I don't suggest anyone do that on a rifle though, too easy to wind up with a rectal/cranial inversion and kill someone.

 

[SND]

I struggled with left bipod hop off concrete mightily. What helped me was raising up a bit so I could get the rifle tucked in the pocket closer to the neck. I had this perception my body and the gun had to be low and as it turned out, I was too low. Raising up a little and tucking the rifle in more comfortably so it made more contact with the shoulder coupled with marksmanship fundamentals mentioned in previous posts did it for me. Crosshairs barely move off the target now after I trip the trigger. This was with a stock atlas and .308 bolt gun.

Keep working at it ...

 

[Gil P.]

I struggled with left bipod hop off concrete mightily. What helped me was raising up a bit so I could get the rifle tucked in the pocket closer to the neck. I had this perception my body and the gun had to be low and as it turned out, I was too low. Raising up a little and tucking the rifle in more comfortably so it made more contact with the shoulder coupled with marksmanship fundamentals mentioned in previous posts did it for me. Crosshairs barely move off the target now after I trip the trigger. This was with a stock atlas and .308 bolt gun.

Keep working at it ...

Been shooting the past week. I tried what you said about bringing the stock closer to the neck, it didn't work well for me.
My best group was in the high .3s average size was between .7 and .5s, with a couple awful ones ever now and then. When I shot my best groups, I was shooting prone on the desert floor, and the rifle moved left after the shot broke by .6 mils. This was the best I could do. Something is still wrong. I can feel and see the rifle move off target as it recoils. I'll keep working at the fundamentals, maybe even set up a camera somehow so I can watch myself.

Thank you all for the help.

 

[SND]

6/10 mil is not bad. Did you square up behind the rifle? Was your shooting shoulder relaxed? Did you follow through the shot? Was the rifle tucked in against your collarbone close to the neck? Nothing frustrated me more than getting this managed so hang in here. Relax, think about the shooting session, do some dry firing and hit it again next week ...

 

[Gil P.]

I tried tucking it in on the collarbone closer to the neck. I didn't get good results. I tried to get as square as possible, being sure not to roll either or my shoulders forward. I'll keep working at it, thanks!

 

[demonjigger]

I never shot bipod prone before getting into the LR steel game almost 5 years ago. It takes a lot of practice to learn to manage recoil. Probably the biggest problem I had was getting used to forcing myself to build a good position with a solid natural point of aim. I always wanted to muscle the gun on target. One thing too is bipod height. When you use a bag in the front, is it the same height as the bipod height? It's not always how low you can get, but where are you most comfortable. I noticed this when training two new LR shooters on my rifle. One was 5'8" and 160#, the other was 5'10" and 260#. Needless to say the bigger shooter needed more bipod height. This also takes the recoil off just the collar bone (ouch) and puts some of it into the upper pec muscle... Practice natural point of aim, recoil management, and trigger follow through. Don't give up you will get it.

 

[308pirate]

The thing that helped me the most was ditching the M40-ish stock I had on my rifle and replacing it with a KRG chassis. All of a sudden it was stupid easy to get straight behind the rifle AND be comfortable and relaxed. In addition, the vertically adjustable buttplate on the KRG made it possible to have full contact between it and the pectoral muscle. The Manners MCS-T's recoil pad sits way too low for me and only the toe of the stock was in contact with my chest.

Once I was able to get straight behind the rifle and have full buttpad contact I was able to see what different changes in the prone position did to recoil control.

 

[Casamike]

I just started precision rifle earlier this year, and prone with a bipod is 80% of what I have done so far. A good friend of mine showed me a couple things that were crazy simple and made a big difference for me. I also use Harris bipods, but have added the Hawk Hill spiked feet which helps a lot with is staying in place and being more stable. He also suggested (as does the Mark and Sam youtube guy) about putting the butt of the rifle more square, closer to your neck and centerline than in the pocket of your shoulder. I also didnt know anything about "loading the bipod" which was a huge epiphany. I was also told to keep my right thumb on the right side of the rifle, and ideally off the stock. I had crossed my thumb over the grip of the stock and never realized that was what put the heartbeat tick into my reticle. Just some ramblings since these are the things i recently learned myself, best of luck to ya.

 

[Gil P.]

Well, I've still been trying. My problem is as bad as ever. Still can't seem to get it right. I've been trying every angle behind the rifle I could, and I've tried placing the stock in my shoulder pocket and closer to my neck. The rifle still jumps 3-4 mils left at 100 yards. I think I'll try lowering the cheek piece a notch. See if it helps.

 

[Precision Underground]

Well, I've still been trying. My problem is as bad as ever. Still can't seem to get it right. I've been trying every angle behind the rifle I could, and I've tried placing the stock in my shoulder pocket and closer to my neck. The rifle still jumps 3-4 mils left at 100 yards. I think I'll try lowering the cheek piece a notch. See if it helps.

Mine was a rear bag issue. I switched to a monopod(hinged and fisted using my hand for support) and started staying right on target through the shot. I think what I was doing was putting a lot of cheek pressure down and to the right onto the bag, then subconsciously letting squeeze pressure off the bag when the shot broke which allowed the stock to move down and right which moved the POA up and left.

 

[Jedi]

Atlas bipods i find are easier to work with, as in thou i can shoot off a harris it requires more thought on my part
Most overpower a harris, using exact same technique simple switch to a atlas and never look back.
Not a product pitch just fact

 

[Gil P.]

Mine was a rear bag issue. I switched to a monopod(hinged and fisted using my hand for support) and started staying right on target through the shot. I think what I was doing was putting a lot of cheek pressure down and to the right onto the bag, then subconsciously letting squeeze pressure off the bag when the shot broke which allowed the stock to move down and right which moved the POA up and left.

I think my issue is similar to yours; too much cheek pressure, then letting go of the rear bag subconsciously after the shot breaks. After I get behind the rifle, I find myself fighting it from moving my POA to the left due to cheek pressure moving the rear of the stock to the right. We'll see if moving the cheek piece down a notch helps. Thanks for your input.

 

[Precision Underground]

I think my issue is similar to yours; too much cheek pressure, then letting go of the rear bag subconsciously after the shot breaks. After I get behind the rifle, I find myself fighting it from moving my POA to the left due to cheek pressure moving the rear of the stock to the right. We'll see if moving the cheek piece down a notch helps. Thanks for your input.

I have been experimenting with varying cheek pressure. So far it seems like I do better with less so the steadiness of the rifle comes from relaxed shoulder and a loaded bipid rather than from cheek pressure burying the stock down into something. My hand is under the monopod to hold it steady but there is not much pressure there. Then the rifle recoils into me rather than into the connection between my cheek, the stock, and the bag/monopod that is being pressed into the ground.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Following this as I also struggle with recoil management. Definitely an informative read.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

Do you shoot with your jaw closed or open? It took me a while to realize it but i always shot best when my jaw hung open... when groups started to go bad odds are my mouth was shut. Frustration added to the mouth shut problem seeing as humans our jaws tend to tense up when we get a bit frustrated/mad. Shooting with my jaw slack and open got my cheek BONE on the stock instead of inconsistent pressure from my jaw muscle.

give it a shot

 

[Pesekcw]

Do you shoot with your jaw closed or open? It took me a while to realize it but i always shot best when my jaw hung open... when groups started to go bad odds are my mouth was shut. Frustration added to the mouth shut problem seeing as humans our jaws tend to tense up when we get a bit frustrated/mad. Shooting with my jaw slack and open got my cheek BONE on the stock instead of inconsistent pressure from my jaw muscle.

give it a shot

WOW, the things you learn, I had never thought of that. But you are correct. Im going to try that this evening.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

Yea when you talk of muscle tension people rarely think of your face. Just relax you jaw... you want to release the muscles holding it closed but not go too much the other way and use muscles to hold it open.

 

[GreggNY]

Good info in this thread so far. I’ve dealt with the left hop issue too and got a lot better through what I’ve learned on this site. Here’s another older thread with concerning the same issue with lots of good info:

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...42820-hoping-rifle-when-shooting-with-a-bipod

 

[308pirate]

I've come to the point where I've mastered bipod hop when shooting from any surface including concrete without using aggressive feet on the bipod.

In no particular order here are the things that helped me overcome this PITA problem
1. Really get straight behind the rifle without stress
2. #1 wasn't entirely possible until I found a stock I could be comfortable with. In my case a KRG 180-Xray
3. Loading the bipod correctly. As Frank says, it comes from the core not from your legs/feet/anywhere else
4. Pulling the rifle back into the shoulder without tensing the shoulder. Again, easier with a stock that as a vertical grip
5. The self discipline to keep trying without giving up or blaming my equipment/range/surface/etc

It is now possible for me to string sub MOA groups consistently with less than .3 mil movement of the rifle away from target center. Now I need to transfer that to dot drills.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Well, this one again. When you're reaching for your hair to pull it out, stop and relax. Approach this from another angle. This can very easily be over analyzed

The rifle hops because it can. Perhaps an approach that makes that impossible might be worth a try.

Add a parade sling to the rifle, one that attaches to the stock, fore and aft. Set the rifle down so it rests in the rear bag and on the bipod feet. Adjust the sling length so that when you push down with your thumb, the sling can almost, but just doesn't quite, contact the ground.

A bit awkward at first, but it becomes natural over time.

Get into prone behind the rifle, and pass your non-shooting hand between the rifle and sling, reaching back so A), your non shooting hand grasps the rear bag, and B) the elbow of the same arm is riding on the sling, applying your upper body weight to it. Your body should be aligned with the rifle as per LowLight's instructions, pulling the rifle into the shoulder as, again, LowLight instructs.

Fire. When recoil concludes, the rifle should end up remaining pointed at the target. At significantly longer distances, you may even be able to see your impact, and if you're really fortunate, get a chance to watch the bullet trace as the bullet arcs back down onto the target..

Let me know if this works for you; it usually does when nothing else will.

Greg

 

[Gil P.]

Thanks, I'll try it out. I have read your other posts on this subject, they have all been helpful.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I have found that some people over emphasis the load on a harris. there isn't really a lot of slack like you have with the atlas so just a little bit of pressure is al you need. The loose jaw thing is another good point and something that has helped me. I also find that when I try and focus on my grip and pulling the rifle into the shoulder my groups open up. maybe I'm putting too much pressure on it or muscling it but if I just relax and grip it how I normally do and just pull it gently into my shoulder pocket I shoot great.

 

[Lowlight]

It's cause and effect ...

If you do this, then that will happen.

Bipods hop because they are bouncing off your body or getting pulled out of position by the firing hand.

The Firing Hand has two purposes:

1. To press the trigger straight to the rear without disturbing the lay of the sights
2. To support the firing task by bringing the rifle straight back into the shoulder pocket

The support hand is to feed the rifle (if magazine feed), adjust the scope, and to hold the rifle in the shoulder pocket when running the bolt. As well as stabilize the rear of the rifle during firing.

Recoil is like electricity, it follows the path of least resistance. The "Hop" is the shooter giving it an exit that is not straight through the body and out the feet.

You have to line up straight behind the rifle number one, you have to bring the rifle into the shoulder pocket and hold it there before loading the bipod as part of recoil management, and then you have to press the trigger without influencing the rifle causing it to move.

The other big issue is disengagement, guys who press (actually Tap) the trigger and disengage from the rifle immediately during the shot. We key off the sound, that translates to moving during recoil, and all that takes time so it happens before the bullet leaves the barrel. The trigger is the start button, not the stop button as it turns the machine on, and not off.

The online training section here has over 45 minutes of video on just Recoil Management, that should be a clue.

 

[Baron26]

Great info...thank you all. I’ve picked up some great pointers and look forward to putting them to practice at the range.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

When you do, if you try the slack sling technique; please relate whether it's effective, and whether or not it's too alien to be a reasonable approach. I use it and have gotten accustomed to it. but it did take some getting used to. Please share your views on it with us.

Thanks,

Greg

 

[Hogstooth]

Also when squaring up behind the rifle make sure your elbows, shoulders are also squared up. Consistency is key in which getting your body positioned and comfortable. You will need to play with your grip tension, my support hand is firm pressure into the pocket of the shoulder, my shooting hand has light/ medium pressure on the three fingers. Some shooters can put light hand pressure and others heavy, what you see in your optic is going to tell you if your grip is correct as the reticle will be most stable, them making sure you have tension in the bipod you will have to start with no tension and work your way up to hard pressure. Reguardless of what you do, you are looking for stability of the reticle then you must be able to press the trigger without disturbing that stability, trigger manipulation is the final influence you have on the rifle, onc ethe shot breaks stay on the rifle and in the optic and keep your eyes open to see your round Impact the target. You can practice different variations (grip/ bipod/ trigger) during dry fire once you have consistent zero movement in the reticle when you dry fire take it to the Range for application.