Advanced Marksmanship Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

[Short-bus]

I've watched the videos to see if there was something that I forgot from my Army days, and i've tried several things to try to fix it, but my rifle (savage 10 20" barrel .308) on a Harris 9-13 bipod hops to the left when it's shot. I was sure that my position straight behind the rifle was good and loading the bipod doesn't help either, it's keep hopping to the left.

I let a buddy shoot it yesterday, and it does the same thing for him, and when I shot his .338LM, his rifle didn't do that for me, so i'm stuck thinking it's the rifle. I'm shooting 208 Amax's, and not pushing them very hard, and it's been suggested that the long heavy bullets are creating a lot of torque in the rifle making it do that.

I'm really at a loss as to what to do now. If there are any Kansas city people that want to shoot it to experience what i'm talking about and diagnose the issue, let me know and we'll arrange something.

It doesn't seem to effect my accuracy a whole lot, I still shoot 1/2moa at 100, and the same at 200. We shot in a pretty much no wind scenario at 500 yesterday (Kestrel was barely getting the wind wheel turning) and I was getting some left and right misses on the head at that distance, and it's feasible that there was an undetected/uncorrected wind in the middle, the place I shoot is like that, weird winds from time to time.

I need some help here, balance of the rifle? Shooter? Load? Lunar drift?

Branden

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

Have you tried shooting the rifle off of a flat rest to take the bipod out of the equation? Is this something it has always done, or is this new (the rifle or the problem)?

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

When i'd shoot from a rest back before I got my "benchrest bipod" (a non-swiveling 6" bipod) it did it while bagged front and rear, although not as bad since it had some lateral support on the front end, but it still moved to the left.

I've been shooting 208's out of it for so long that I don't remember what it was like shooting lighter bullets. The lightest I have now is a few 168 bergers (10-15?), and a box of 175 smk's.

It's tempting to load up some 175's and try again, however I was going to sell them as I really love the 208's in the wind, and downrange energy. Too many things to think about here.

Branden

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

What I'd do is experiment with body angles behind the rifle, to see whether this makes any difference. I make no claims about knowing such solutions. LL has done some work on this and has some opinions about positions and bipod hop. I believe they are strong opinions, and probably right on. He does a lot of bipod shooting and instruction.

Greg

 

[223man]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

Just to through out an idea. May be your body position is fine but you don't have your shoulders and elbows perfectly squared up. I will get a little hope even with my .223 AR but then I check my elbows to make sure they are squared up and the hop goes away. Hope this helps.

 

[TimK]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I'd do is experiment with body angles behind the rifle, to see whether this makes any difference. I make no claims about knowing such solutions. LL has done some work on this and has some opinions about positions and bipod hop. I believe they are strong opinions, and probably right on. He does a lot of bipod shooting and instruction.

Greg </div></div>

I did this in exactly your situation. I moved my body to the left and the hop disappeared.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

As we continue to address this situation, with a variety of shooters, and rifle systems, one thing I have found is, the bipod is sometimes at fault, especially with the Harris.

The bipod is not always square as well the legs are sometimes at a different length to each other, I actually have one of mine that I need to open the legs to the first notch to square them up in order to prevent it from kicking the rifle off, even a little.

Sometimes, you're execution is right, and the rifle still moves a little, at which case I start looking at how things differ from one rifle to another. The bipods appear to be the source in most cases.

Other virtually unnoticeable symptoms are trigger press, and shoulder pressure, as well I have seen people with a sympathetic squeeze in the firing hand as well, in the support hand on the rear bag. Takes a second keen eye to make sure you are subconsciously moving off to the side, or doing one of the following.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As we continue to address this situation, with a variety of shooters, and rifle systems, one thing I have found is, the bipod is sometimes at fault, especially with the Harris.

The bipod is not always square as well the legs are sometimes at a different length to each other, I actually have one of mine that I need to open the legs to the first notch to square them up in order to prevent it from kicking the rifle off, even a little.

Sometimes, you're execution is right, and the rifle still moves a little, at which case I start looking at how things differ from one rifle to another. The bipods appear to be the source in most cases.

Other virtually unnoticeable symptoms are trigger press, and shoulder pressure, as well I have seen people with a sympathetic squeeze in the firing hand as well, in the support hand on the rear bag. Takes a second keen eye to make sure you are subconsciously moving off to the side, or doing one of the following.

</div></div>

I was hoping you'd chime in and give your input, I appreciate it. I do my best executing all the fundamentals, "I" believe that i'm following them well, however I haven't attending any proper training in at least the last 11 years, and if I could afford to take a class, I would.

All I can hope for at this point is a great shooter to join me locally and check out what i'm doing, and correct it so that I can stop making the error. For what it's worth, the rifle is 13.5lbs.

Frank, while I have you on here, do you think that the heavy bullet torquing the rifle is possible, or complete hogwash? Is it more than likely it's me or the bipod over something like torque?

Branden

 

[az-k9]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

Fulcrum? Try mounting the bipod or rest forward or behind of the current location. Probably need to put the point of rest farther out towards the muzzle.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The_Biased_Obser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fulcrum? Try mounting the bipod or rest forward or behind of the current location. Probably need to put the point of rest farther out towards the muzzle. </div></div>

It's already at the furthest point.

Branden

 

[Lindy]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

With some rifles on some surfaces, some shooters may have to be more than straight behind the rifle to prevent lateral movement during recoil. You may actually have to have your body angled toward your strong side.

The test is whether the rifle moves laterally, so no magic technique is required. If straight doesn't work, angle your body more toward the side the rifle is on until it doesn't move laterally. You may still get some vertical hop, but at some point, the rifle will stop moving laterally, in my experience.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

I am far from an expert, but we can get together and try to figure this out.

I am not sure if I will be able to make the BP night shoot, but I might pull off the 24th.

You are welcome to come down any weekend (or evening) and meet me at my range.

 

[ubet]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

TAG

 

[HotrRod308]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

+1 on what Lowlight suggested about the bipod.
I shoot a 700 w/20" barrel, with the Harris bipod, it was always hopping, no matter how hard I held, loaded the bipod straight behind rifle, it hopped. favored strong side or weak side, It always hopped enough to cause me to lose sight picture.
Enter the Atlas Bipod.
I can now watch my shots on target. The Atlas Bipod loads easier, and seems to me like the little bit of "slop" as some call it, in the bipod lets the rifle come straight back instead of torquing.
..
I am pleased with the switch to Atlas, just wish I would have done it sooner. It is cool to see the ssmaaak on the steel!

Just my $.02.

 

[ubet]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

The more and more I use the harris, the more and more I think its a piece of shit for trying to see your hit, much less a quick follow up.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

I would like an Atlas, but I just don't have that kind of money now (now unemployed).

Well, at least the positive sign is that y'alls are just simply bashing me saying "It's the shooter!". Gives me a little hope that i'm doing things right.

Branden

 

[ubet]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

I have a savage12 in 300wsm, I couldnt keep it from hoping with my harris, but when I shot off sandbags, I could see my hits @200 and beyond, you might try that

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The more and more I use the harris, the more and more I think its a piece of shit for trying to see your hit, much less a quick follow up. </div></div>

I have two Harris BRM-S bipods. One on the 700 and one that swaps between the AE MkII and AR10. I have never had a problem spotting impacts, rapid fire or moving targets with either. We have standard Harris 6-9" pods on the department rifles. I dont have a problem shooting those either.

I have an Atlas on the way because I am curious about them.

I don't get emotionally invested in my equipment, but to say that they are pieces of shit because YOU cannot effectively utilize them is humorous to say the least and ignorant at best.

It's a very common issue for Alpha Males to immediately blame the equipment when they can't do something well. When you have eliminated as many variables as possible, feel free to blame the equipment. Just remeber the biggest variable is frequently attached to the trigger.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

LL, with the preloaded pan function on the atlas do you make sure that the legs are square all the time? The harris doesn't have a panning ability so I can see squareness of the bipod to the rifle being an issue. Is it as important to have the atlas legs square all the time even with the panning ability?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

Here's the problem, shooters simply not using their brains. The big picture is control. It's all about controlling the rifle consistently until recoil has subsided. Too many folks see the bipod as a support/control when it would be better described as a rest, since the support from it is temporary, that's to say, it works well only until the trigger is pulled. Use it without a technique for control of the rifle from the time the trigger is pulled to the time the bullet has cleared the bore, and an inconsistent hop is likely. One way to control the bipod supported rifle is to place the non firing hand on the handguard, as would be done with an unsupported rifle. This technique also works when using a sandbag support. The other techniques as described here by LL and others may also come to aid the shooter.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frogman77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL, with the preloaded pan function on the atlas do you make sure that the legs are square all the time? The harris doesn't have a panning ability so I can see squareness of the bipod to the rifle being an issue. Is it as important to have the atlas legs square all the time even with the panning ability? </div></div>

I don't have the atlas in hand, so I can't tell you yet.

You need different techniques for different situations. When you are panning on tracking you are not going to be straight behind the rifle. The rifle will not recoil straight back when you are cranked over shooting a target at the extreme right or left. This is why brakes are helpful when you aren't on a square range.

 

[ubet]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The more and more I use the harris, the more and more I think its a piece of shit for trying to see your hit, much less a quick follow up. </div></div>

I have two Harris BRM-S bipods. One on the 700 and one that swaps between the AE MkII and AR10. I have never had a problem spotting impacts, rapid fire or moving targets with either. We have standard Harris 6-9" pods on the department rifles. I dont have a problem shooting those either.

I have an Atlas on the way because I am curious about them.

I don't get emotionally invested in my equipment, but to say that they are pieces of shit because YOU cannot effectively utilize them is humorous to say the least and ignorant at best.

It's a very common issue for Alpha Males to immediately blame the equipment when they can't do something well. When you have eliminated as many variables as possible, feel free to blame the equipment. Just remeber the biggest variable is frequently attached to the trigger. </div></div>

Well I am glad yours works for you. I can normally see my hits past 200 yds, but inside of it I have a lot of trouble with it, ecspecially with my unbraked 300wsm. With my 308, I dont get near as much hop, but its consistent left, I have changed my prone position from angled left, to angled right and still get it. I dont seem to have a problem with the movement caused by recoil when shooting off berms, sandbags, or the bed of my pickup. So if you could give me a suggestion, I would appreciate it.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

I have shot the Atlas with the bipod off center, and panned, because you are taking up the slack on the bipod and not loading against a stiff set of legs the orientation of the legs are not as important as with the Harris.

There is no slack in the harris for the recoil to use, so the shooter has to find the medium between loading against the legs and pushing them forward unloading them. So they are much more sensitive to the shooter's position.

With the Parker Hale, Versa, and Atlas, you have plenty of slack and the recoil will just follow that, not transfer to the legs.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if you could give me a suggestion, I would appreciate it. </div></div>

Make sure you are not applying pressure with your support hand to one side or the other. Try adjusting the location of the buttstock in your shoulder.

It's difficult to provide more input without seeing what's going on.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

This may sound goofy but it works...

I use a sling with a bipod. I loop my off hand through a loop off the the front sling mount and load the rifle against my shoulder. I'm far more consistent using this method when I can't load the bipod legs for whatever reason.

 

[ubet]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if you could give me a suggestion, I would appreciate it. </div></div>

Make sure you are not applying pressure with your support hand to one side or the other. Try adjusting the location of the buttstock in your shoulder.

It's difficult to provide more input without seeing what's going on. </div></div>

My support hand holds a rear bag again under the stock/in place, the only part that touches is my thumb, it sort of wraps around and helps hold the bag tight into the stock. I was shooting at 750yds today, was one of the first times the rifle would settle close to back on target. Should my shoulders be square when prone? I'm right handed. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My support hand holds a rear bag again under the stock/in place, the only part that touches is my thumb, it sort of wraps around and helps hold the bag tight into the stock. I was shooting at 750yds today, was one of the first times the rifle would settle close to back on target. Should my shoulders be square when prone? I'm right handed. Thanks for the advice. </div></div>

I find keeping shoulders square to the target is necessary. Also, the type of rear bag can help as well. The TAB bags that have the straps on either side are very good. I put my bottom three fingers through the strap allowing for a cradle between my index finger and thumb to grip the stock. This way you can control elevation by squeezing the bag and hold onto the gun properly controlling it (but not muscling it out of npa). This helps prevent fishtailing and tends for me to promote horizontal accuracy.

 

[locked&loaded]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

I have had issues with hop as well. I thought of removing the springs from the harris just to see if it would change things.
Has anyone tried this.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

Any hop is a problem with control, not the bipod. What's the bipod attached to, the rifle, it's what's moving, from recoil. Can you eliminate recoil, no; but, you can control it. You can manipulate, or direct the recoil to minimize its divergence. Divergence in recoil, as promoted by an inconsistent relationship between the shooter, gun, and ground, will effect accuracy especially at distance, since the error is angular. Use your brain, get a handle on it literally. If you do not place your non firing hand on the handguard you will need to muster another technique to "drive" the rifle until recoil has subsided. Make no mistake though, if the bipod is hopping it means there's a problem with control.

 

[locked&loaded]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

Just thinking of the mechanics of the bipod design. The legs are held to the rear with spring tension. As the rifle travels to the rear with recoil, the legs would stay planted on the shooting surface and be pulled forward a bit under increasing spring tension. Once recoil starts to subside, spring tension would seem to snap the legs to the rear again. This would seem to induce a hop since the legs fold forward in an arc. As they fold forward, the rifle drops. If they snapped back to the rear, it seems a hop would be induced.

I understand position and technique are very important.
Just pondering a bit.

 

[ssgp2]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

I'm curious to see if reversing the bipod would change the direction of the hop....
I never had any problems with the Harris and changed to the swivel model because I shoot from uneven ground.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgp2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm curious to see if reversing the bipod would change the direction of the hop....
I never had any problems with the Harris and changed to the swivel model because I shoot from uneven ground. </div></div>
The springs likely have little to do with hop although the theory may be sound. I have a GG&G which locks the legs and has no springs...the rifle will still hop if you allow it to.

 

[Youngjoonni]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

If you can get your hands on a vid cam, you can vid yourself from various angles and critic yourself. Or post up for rest of us to do so.

 

[ubet]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KIMO</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My support hand holds a rear bag again under the stock/in place, the only part that touches is my thumb, it sort of wraps around and helps hold the bag tight into the stock. I was shooting at 750yds today, was one of the first times the rifle would settle close to back on target. Should my shoulders be square when prone? I'm right handed. Thanks for the advice. </div></div>

I find keeping shoulders square to the target is necessary. Also, the type of rear bag can help as well. The TAB bags that have the straps on either side are very good. I put my bottom three fingers through the strap allowing for a cradle between my index finger and thumb to grip the stock. This way you can control elevation by squeezing the bag and hold onto the gun properly controlling it (but not muscling it out of npa). This helps prevent fishtailing and tends for me to promote horizontal accuracy. </div></div>

I realized I have my right shoulder further back, and my left shoulder further ahead. I use a redtac bag, its the loops on the long side on one on small side. Will deffienetly work on this! Thank you.

Could this thread become a sticky?

 

[Stubb]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

I'm happy to report that the information in this and other threads cured my bipod hop. My AW recoils straight back, and I'm able to watch the bullet hit the target and can often see the vapor trail.

Swapping out the Harris for an Atlas definitely helped. The play in the Atlas's legs lets the rifle move backward in recoil while the feet stay put, which I think makes a big difference.

—Andreas

 

[Graham]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

It's probably not the bi-pod. When you relax during recoil the right shoulder is probably moving backward. Is your right elbow/shoulder farther forward than your left elbow/shoulder when in your NPA?

 

[Stubb]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

I've had people check me, and I'm lining up with my shoulders square to the target. I'm paying close attention to lining up the rifle with the target and then myself with the rifle. I'm right handed, and my left elbow lies slightly ahead of my right one owing to hand position (left controlling the rear bag, right pulling the trigger). I'm shot video clips of myself shooting, and my right shoulder definitely travels back a few cm when absorbing recoil.

—Andreas

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

Bottom line, if it is the bipod, and you don't have coin for an atlas right now, you have to adapt. Shift your hips and legs in the direction the rifle is jumping, you said left, so shift your hips and legs in that direction, as Lindy suggested. That should be a temporary fix.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

I just realized that this thread is one that I started over a year ago. Starting getting the email notifications and was kinda like WTF? Thought i'd update the thread.

I don't have a problem with the bipod hopping anymore unless I allow my left shoulder to be in front of my right, I have to make sure that they are squared up. Also, i'm running a Manners T5A and Atlas which makes things even easier. I have the stock setup perfect to me, I can practically fall asleep on the rifle and my eye will stay in the right position behind the scope. I can spot my own impacts, occasionally see my own trace, and quickly make follow up shots.

Bottom line is that it was me. Todd helped get me lined up right on the rifle, and with the 208's it's still a little difficult to spot impacts at 100-150 because of the dramatic increase in recoil, but I shoot mostly 175's now, and I have no problems.

Branden

 

[timelinex]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

Anyone else notice a very big pattern to everyone's threads that mention bipod hop... At the end of the thread they always say it was their fault and they changed their form but interestingly almost always add the tidbit of "oh and btw I got an atlas bipod now".....

Good info in this thread though, thanks!

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

I should note that I did fix this before I got an atlas.

 

[lonely_wolf]

Re: Bipod/Rifle hopping to the left

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[...] but interestingly almost always add the tidbit of "oh and btw I got an atlas bipod now"..... </div></div>

'Cause Harris suck.

I've been working on eliminating left wing bipod hop as well. I thought I had it fixed a few weeks ago. I had the joy of shooting in some sand pits where I could really dig the Harris legs in. It was great to spot every hit.

I arrived back in the city and go to my regular range. Harris is hopping all over again. This was quite frustrating because I thought I had fixed my problem. Next trip I brought some grip cloth to put under the Harris' legs. This helped load the bipod better. The Harris still hopped, but a bit less.

Today was another day of trying to get rid of the damn hop. Finally, in frustration I tore the dam thing off the rifle and started shooting off my range bag. Rifle recoiled straight back and I spotted every hit. I did nothing to my alignment, except rest the rifle on a bag instead of a Harris...?