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blackout defense gas block design
- Thread starter PRSDietitian
- Start date
Holy shit, I thought I was one to take the length from the gas port to muzzle shorter than normal
Blackout defense rifles are mostly proprietary since they make everything except springs in house
Interesting. Would love to see some videos on their testing. I run 100% suppressed so I get some dwell length back. I’ve wanted to experiment more with short dwell length
Yeah, I’ve been in contact with them recently, because I had some comments that could help their rifles further.
Nothing in terms of gas or barrel, design, or anything like that, more so ideas that could compliment what they already do
Using the dual taper lock system with a quad rail, for instance
Utilizing NP3, hard chrome, or DLC coating with their bolt carrier groups. From what I can gather, they already use Sprinco springs anyway. But I also recommended the use of OCKS
The possibility of utilizing something similar to the A5 buffer system
And the last one is just purely personal preference, but I think it would be cool if they started utilizing B5 furniture as well
Nothing in terms of gas or barrel, design, or anything like that, more so ideas that could compliment what they already do
Using the dual taper lock system with a quad rail, for instance
Utilizing NP3, hard chrome, or DLC coating with their bolt carrier groups. From what I can gather, they already use Sprinco springs anyway. But I also recommended the use of OCKS
The possibility of utilizing something similar to the A5 buffer system
And the last one is just purely personal preference, but I think it would be cool if they started utilizing B5 furniture as well
I wonder if their concern with pinning affecting harmonics would extend to dimpling and/or using proper set-screws and installation techniques. If not, I don't see much advantage, especially on a factory built only weapon
i got a buddy going to SHOT and he said he wanted to sit down with them and get the nitty gritty details of the why. because i really like a lot of the concepts applied to their rifles
Me too. Shortest dwell time I've got is the bottom in the pic, 14.8" rifle gas. I don't know if I'd want to try an 11.5" mid unsuppressed. I'm going to check out the Blackout Defense though, I like seeing companies push the envelope.
Hard pass. It's just a complex answer to a question nobody was asking.
If your gas blocks are rotating, then you sucked at assembly techniques, IMO, whether it was a set screw or pinned block.
Besides, the idea that pinning a gas block (presumably from weakening the barrel at the pin holes) changes harmonics more than milling two big flats along the barrel seems like a failure to think things through very well. And that silly spring washer setup - did they think gas blocks need to be able to slide on the barrel? Or what, do they think the force unlocking the bolt carrier is reacted through the gas tube or something? Something doesn't add up there.
Beyond that, harmonics of the barrel from things like pin holes or flats is mostly affected when those things are near the fixed (chamber) end of the barrel. Out at the muzzle like that, they do pretty much nothing, aside from any incidental changes in mass.
These kind of "solutions" make me wonder if the brains behind the company really understand the rifle all that well to start with. Or maybe it's just something for marketing to sell with the expectation that the general public doesn't understand it, like Superlative bleed-off gas blocks.
If your gas blocks are rotating, then you sucked at assembly techniques, IMO, whether it was a set screw or pinned block.
Besides, the idea that pinning a gas block (presumably from weakening the barrel at the pin holes) changes harmonics more than milling two big flats along the barrel seems like a failure to think things through very well. And that silly spring washer setup - did they think gas blocks need to be able to slide on the barrel? Or what, do they think the force unlocking the bolt carrier is reacted through the gas tube or something? Something doesn't add up there.
Beyond that, harmonics of the barrel from things like pin holes or flats is mostly affected when those things are near the fixed (chamber) end of the barrel. Out at the muzzle like that, they do pretty much nothing, aside from any incidental changes in mass.
These kind of "solutions" make me wonder if the brains behind the company really understand the rifle all that well to start with. Or maybe it's just something for marketing to sell with the expectation that the general public doesn't understand it, like Superlative bleed-off gas blocks.
So what does the general public not understand about bleed off gas blocks? And what is the marketing department saying to sell them that's not true or disingenuous?
For starters, a belief that's perpetuated by advertising that the bleed off will increase MV. The belief exists for regular AGB's but is very common with bleed off users.
Even better, check out their dual barrel nut system with thermal expansion rings cut into the barrel.
Tapered barrel extensions with a flange and corresponding tapered barrel nuts is something that I always wondered why modern rifle designers didn't incorporate into a receiver. It seems like it would be really nice rock solid connection that albeit over kill, but simple enough to CNC turn on a lathe.
I guess I didn't see that in their add. All I saw was that they aren't supposed to lock up when in bleed off mode.
They may have removed it, but there was a time when people were repeating the myth so often that I went on the site and there it was.
The whole "bleed off" concept is marketing snake oil; it doesn't accomplish anything that a normal restriction gas block doesn't also do just as well or better, but they spent so much on slick marketing that they became one of the most popular gas blocks. Meanwhile the reality of venting some of that gas you were trying to suppress into open air is just completely glossed over; pretty impressive marketing to accomplish that, to be honest.
The average AR owner understands very little about the AR gas system and gas tuning, so they believe the slick sounding marketing and then popularity builds on itself. Heck even most 'Hide members don't seem to understand gas block function all that well, with a few exceptions of course.
That's actually hilarious. I wonder if they genuinely think that's going to accomplish anything different? If they do, they need to get some education in bolted joint design. It's hard to tell with some of these companies if it's just completely marketing gimmicks, or if they're just bad at engineering? Could be either one too be honest; I've mentored more than a couple young engineers who really were that bad, but there's a lot of snake oil in this industry too.
A tapered flange and barrel nut would accomplish nothing of any significance. Why do you think it'd be more helpful than the standard design? It wouldn't hold the barrel in better alignment, there's too much play in receiver & barrel nut threads to do that, and isn't needed as an additional locking feature. If you have a barrel nut that comes loose, it simply wasn't installed tight enough, and TBH it doesn't take all that much to be tight enough. So why add a taper to this joint?
There are advantages to tapers in certain applications, like suppressor mounts where the taper can be used for alignment, or as a self locking feature in something like a steering wheel mount, but the gun industry seems to have jumped on tapers as a fad to put on everything possible now, without understanding whether there's any reason to do so.
The superlative arms bleed off gas block does accomplish something other adjustable gas blocks don't if the advertising that they dont lock up in bleed off mode is true.
Bleed off mode sucks. Whether its Superlative Arms, Steyr Arms, or FN; dumping excess gas outside of the gas system is 1950's technology.
You are telling me that under high speed camera ... that gas block isn't going to move ... come on now ...
Quick change barrel system without designing a multi bolt clamping style trunnion. Barrel nut with slots with a handguard that attached like an HK416. "Tooless."
Why would it move? What forces would cause that (with enough strength to counter that wave washer), and why would you want it to move?
Yes, there's pressure in the gas tube, but along the axis of the barrel that pressure acts on a very small surface area. That's not the force pushing the bolt carrier backwards, unlike a piston system.
Besides, if that gas block is loose enough on the barrel to slide freely, then it's going to leak gas like crazy with every shot, so it'll have to be tuned to account for that leakage. It'll also make a mess of fouling all over that area, and it'll stop moving pretty quickly once fouling builds up.
I don't see a taper between the barrel nut and barrel extension (as you originally described) doing anything to help facilitate that. If you flipped it around so the taper is between the barrel extension and receiver, then that could be one part of a system, maybe. But one short taper like that could only center that part of the barrel extension in the receiver, it won't force alignment with the receiver bore as the current flat shoulder does. So quite likely causing a worse condition than the current system. Still seems like a solution in search of a problem; add tapers where they are needed but don't just go looking for places to use a taper because it seems like the latest neat thing to do.
Besides, quick change barrel systems in ARs are for people who don't care about accuracy. I've yet to see even a concept of one yet that locks the barrel rigidly in relation to the optic; all of these "tooless" systems really mean "hand tight" or less, which isn't good enough. That goes for the folding uppers too; I've assembled a couple of those and accuracy was their primary weakness.
The ar15 is 1950s technology.
There are two ways I can think of to get less gas restrict it or bleed it off. Please explain why one is better.
Sounds, exterior fouling, shooter contamination, the list goes on. When you're trying to capture the gas coming out of the gun with a device on the end of the barrel, venting to atmosphere makes little sense. The AR may have been designed in the 50's but it has gone through endless revisions. Bleed off is a step back to World War 2 era designs.
Movement is inevitable with temp changes, harmonics etc … it’s banking on a spring to keep it from moving. All springs have mobility and variances as external factors change.
They could have made it an adjustable gas block as well but they didn’t. They should.
That's what the flange is for. For a modern rifle design btw. Wasn't talking about ARs, modern, like the ones with the clamp on barrel trunnions that are coming out.
I have yet to see an adjustable gas block that doesn't foul around the adjustment screw.
Shooter contamination? Please explain that thought. You have gasses coming out of the muzzle and ejection port but the small amount bled at the gas block is a concern to the shooter?
The superlative arms has worked fine for me with a suppressor. Sounds just like all my other uppers with restrictive gas blocks.
Please go on with your list.
Not really. I have a couple of SA AGB's. The single biggest downside to bleed off is the gas port has to be somewhat close to the correct size for the application to even work. The same is also true of the FAL. Fortunately the SA system allows users to just turn the screw in to restrict flow. Something that would be handy when suppressing a FAL.
